The Religion Discussion

[toyo682]

Did God write the bible and approve all its content? To answer the first part, only the moron bible...but anyways God did not put pen to paper that much is obvious. what he did was inspire the writers. Now when I say inspire I am not talking about inspiration in the sense as one has when writing a novel or play. Rather this inspiration was to record what God has revealed through events, not create stories. Much of the Old Testament is filled with fore shadowing of things in the New Testament. My answer to those who claim the Bible to be a novel is that one can clear see that the writers were not recording to contribute to a grand book. They were just recording what God had revealed to them with no fore thought that they were writing the Bible, and the fact that it was written by more than one man through out history. Unlike the Qu'ran that has one author. Thus the answer to the second part would then be that God did approve all its content, since He revealed it to those who wrote it and inspired them to record it.

The bible, as with ALL religious texts, was written by MAN, and will be subject to interpretation, exaggeration and fallacies.

Not really not in the writing but may be in the way we read it today. That is why we must do our best to interpret it correctly.

Do you agree with this?

[mamoo_pagal]

to all in the thread I advise you try this simple exercis and determine where you stand. It gives you an insight on critical thinking skills and what in involves. Just give it a try.........

http://www.wisc-online.com/Objects/View ... ID=CCS2707

http://www.wisc-online.com/Objects/View ... ID=CCS2807

who know's it may lead to a more logical open minded discussion. No fingers pointed!!

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Not really not in the writing but may be in the way we read it today. That is why we must do our best to interpret it correctly.

and how do you know you are interpreting it correctly?

[toyo682]

Not really not in the writing but may be in the way we read it today. That is why we must do our best to interpret it correctly.

and how do you know you are interpreting it correctly?

hermeneutics...

[MG Man]

that's the best BS answer you got?
sheesh

[toyo682]

^^^^ if there is a better way please do tell.

[MG Man]

so u saying all those godly christians who do not know about hermeneutics run the risk of misinterpreting god's word as handed down thru divine inspiration?

[d spike]

Faith is the belief in that which cannot be proven.

Am I disagree, faith can be proven, while you see faith as something that cannot be proven, faith is actually believing what is yet to be proven.
You are quite right here, in that my use of "cannot" is too infinite. Yes, There is always the possibility that what one has faith in, may one day be proven - and at that point then one's faith will cease, to be replaced by knowledge. Faith, however, is still the belief in something that cannot be proven at that point in time.

For example, many each day put their faith in chairs. I guess many don't see it as exercising faith because of how often we do it but never the less it is. The notion is that the chair will hold you up when you sit on it. But until you sit on the chair you will not be able to prove that the chair is what it is and will do what it says it will do. We have faith that the chair will hold us up. Likewise a parachute we are told that it would keep us from splatting on the ground when we jump from high attitudes. Our faith in the parachute is proven when we act on what it says it will do, in other words it is what it says it is and will do what it says it will do. Need I go on...
No, please don't, for you are no longer talking about "faith", as it is meant spiritually, and you are starting to look like someone who isn't fully aware of what he is talking about. "Faith" in a chair? Or a parachute? Good grief, just because the word is the same, doesn't mean it means precisely the same thing. You are speaking about an inanimate object that was constructed for a specific, physical purpose, which has been demonstrated, or could be demonstrated. Believing that a deity created the cosmos, and believing that a plane's wings will support you in the air, are two totally different things, both linguistically and spiritually. If the point must be argued, those examples you listed actually are closer to Hope, not Faith. (You said you studied religion at a University? My God, I know some folks complain about educational standards dropping, but this is ridiculous...)

Faith in God can be proven, once we come to the realization that God is who he is and will do what he says he will do. When someone is dying and doctors have given up and they hold on to the word of God and is healed, is their faith not proven?
I'm sorry, but no. Again, you are dealing with semantics, not spirituality, reality or logic - the three of which are always closely tied. (Were you the tuner who claimed to have studied theology? Clearly, I am confusing you with another... as your posts bear no such proof - probably why Megadoc would recommend the reading of your posts.)
What you have just described here is not proof, but coincidence. To the person who prayed for healing and then received it in the face of adversity, yes, to him this would SEEM to be proof - if he believes. That is precisely what I meant by saying that miracles help to strengthen the faith of believers. But look at the same situation involving an unbeliever (in other words, apply logic ):
Megadoc invites Nati and Duane to one of his cult's meetings. Megadoc then heals a man impotent from birth. The scales fall from Duane's eyes and, weeping, he professes belief. Nati, however, a skeptic unto death, refuses to accept what his eyes have witnessed, and claims it was set up, staged. Megadoc then prays for Nati, who goes home... to wake up the next morning, completely healed of his secret ailment that has been plaguing him since adolescence.
You will say that this is proof. Nati will say his body's immune system finally got the job right. Proof is that which CAN be proven... proof is not an opinion, which is what you have.

I guess you meant to say faith cannot be put in a test tube. Or is it that once you can't see it, it can't be proven to exist. Have you ever seen the wind, you have to be mad to answer yes, what we see are the effects of the wind. So what because we cannot see the wind does not exist. So what because we cannot see God he does not exist or cannot be proven, do not be mad, we can see and feel the effects of him working.
Nice Dark Ages argument, but that was not what I meant. And again, you are confusing "opinion" with "proof".

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Not really not in the writing but may be in the way we read it today. That is why we must do our best to interpret it correctly.

and how do you know you are interpreting it correctly?

hermeneutics...

there are dozens of different principles of biblical hermeneutics

You may follow the Christo-centric principle while a catholic would follow that and the Roman Catholic principles of hermeneutics

so again, what makes your principle of hermeneutics right and Roman Catholic principles of hermeneutics wrong? Or any one of the numerous other methods wrong or right?

[QG]

if life on other planets is discovered.....a lot of religious teachings will now have ah big gaping hole in it.........

I have no doubt that biblical scholars will find (make up) something to 'plug' the hole!

But to answer 16 cycles question (from a biblical perspective). toyo682 is correct to ask "Does it matter?" The answer to that (from a biblical perspective) is firmly "No!" According to the Bible, the Earth is at the centre of creation. It was created first, then everyting else after (including our Sun, Moon and other stars). Man was created to rule over everything on earth. When the time comes to destroy the earth, everything else will also be destroyed (Sun, Moon and other stars). There is no specific reference in the Bible to any other life, on any other planet.

Well Said!

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ may have been well said in offering an explanation however we already know for a fact that the earth is not the center of our solar system, far less the center of the universe.

When the bible was written, these concepts were not known nor were they relevant, which is perfectly understandable. Back then men could not fly, the heavens were thought to be in the sky or beyond the sky (what we now know is "outer space" and there is no heaven in the sky). However these facts are very well known today and very relevant as man looks to space travel and inhabiting other planets.

[d spike]

Did God write the bible and approve all its content? To answer the first part, only the moron bible...but anyways God did not put pen to paper that much is obvious. what he did was inspire the writers.

Now I know which bible Megadoc uses, and why he is so insistent on being in the right...

[d spike]

:lol:
that's the best BS answer you got?
sheesh

What else did you expect? In Kipling's "The First Jungle Book", the monkey tribe (the Bandar-log) used to boast, "We all say so, so it must be true!"

He just gave you a nicer sounding explanation...

[megadoc1]

big joke geee hee hee
there goes the king james "opinion"

[d spike]

When the bible was written, these concepts were not known nor were they relevant, which is perfectly understandable.

Quite right. Many of the bible-thumpers out there fail to realise that, inspired by the spirit or not, the former and greater part of the bible was written by members of a small, insignificant tribe of nomadic small ruminant herders who inhabited a very small portion of one of the less pleasant and hospitable spots on the globe, for the benefit of the other members of that small tribe... and the latter, smaller part was written by members of a sect that broke away from the main belief system of that small tribe. Whether aliens exist or not, would hardly be in the bible, and certainly would not be relevant to the interests of this tribe - unless the aliens were interested in buying goats, or expensively-priced arid real estate...

[d spike]

big joke geee hee hee
Moronic response. How apt.

there goes the king james "opinion"
Sure did. It certainly passed you by.

[megadoc1]

When the bible was written, these concepts were not known nor were they relevant, which is perfectly understandable.

Quite right. Many of the bible-thumpers out there fail to realise that, inspired by the spirit or not, the former and greater part of the bible was written by members of a small, insignificant tribe of nomadic small ruminant herders who inhabited a very small portion of one of the less pleasant and hospitable spots on the globe, for the benefit of the other members of that small tribe... and the latter, smaller part was written by members of a sect that broke away from the main belief system of that small tribe. Whether aliens exist or not, would hardly be in the bible, and certainly would not be relevant to the interests of this tribe - unless the aliens were interested in buying goats, or expensively-priced arid real estate...

oh................ remember folks this is an opinion

[d spike]

When the bible was written, these concepts were not known nor were they relevant, which is perfectly understandable.

Quite right. Many of the bible-thumpers out there fail to realise that, inspired by the spirit or not, the former and greater part of the bible was written by members of a small, insignificant tribe of nomadic small ruminant herders who inhabited a very small portion of one of the less pleasant and hospitable spots on the globe, for the benefit of the other members of that small tribe... and the latter, smaller part was written by members of a sect that broke away from the main belief system of that small tribe. Whether aliens exist or not, would hardly be in the bible, and certainly would not be relevant to the interests of this tribe - unless the aliens were interested in buying goats, or expensively-priced arid real estate...

oh................ remember folks this is an opinion

Of course it's an opinion, what else could it possibly be?

Thank you for highlighting the obvious - a necessary task in these present times of uncertainty...
Now, my dear boy, why don't you point out what errors there are in my post, instead of making yourself look foolish?

[megadoc1]

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ the lyrics for that song go:

Oh Lord you're beautiful,
Your face is all I see...

What does God's face look like?
What is the beautiful face she is envisioning?

[toyo682]

[quote]
Toyo, Catholics say their way is through Christ and the Bible, Is this all, don't they teach that members spend time in purgatory to pay for their sins. Isn't this pointless since the same Bible they use says that Christ died for their sins. Is Christ's sacrifice insufficient? What about paying the priest to hold a special mass so that your love one who spend less time in hell, does this practice not exist? Can you quote the verse in the Bible where his is found. Can you quote the verse in the Bible that says we should pray to Mary to intercede for us?[quote]

When you answer these questions you will have the answer to who has the correct hermeneutics...

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ what about the 20+ other different principles of hermeneutics?

say for example the direct statement principle vs. the symbolic principle
is God's word direct or symbolic? if both then who says which is which?

or what about trajectory hermeneutics which allow for homosexuality? Do we give concessions to things that are increasingly acceptable in modern society? What about slavery? The bible gives instructions on how slaves should be treated but does not outlaw slavery - clearly by modern thinking, slavery of any kind is very wrong.

SO back to my question

Not really not in the writing but may be in the way we read it today. That is why we must do our best to interpret it correctly.

and how do you know you are interpreting it correctly?

hermeneutics...

so I guess you choose some hermeneutics and then reject some?
who decides which to reject and which to accept?
Benny Hinn? megadoc1? Who?

[megadoc1]

^ the lyrics for that song go:

Oh Lord you're beautiful,
Your face is all I see...

What does God's face look like?
What is the beautiful face she is envisioning?

Oh Lord, you're beautiful,
Your face is all I seek,
For when your eyes are on this child,
Your grace abounds to me.

[toyo682]

^^^plain and simple the best one is to start at the original intent of the writer, all these others came about to support what people want the Bible to say. That is why you cannot answer the question I asked you though you claimed to be a catholic for many years. A while ago I was taking to a SDA gentleman concerning hell, when the passage of revelation 20 came up where it speaks of forever and forever, he told me that forever and forever meant for a period of time. Now even in English forever and forever means... though he admitted that the Greek word used in that passage meant eternal, this reason for believing it was a period of time is because he did not think God would do that. Nothing to do with the translation, word and anything of that nature, so basically to him forever and forever means a period of time because he wanted it to, plain and simple.

[toyo682]

Oh and if you doubt my hermeneutic, I have posted many of the verses that support my beliefs right here. If you can show me I am wrong then please do.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^^^plain and simple the best one is to start at the original intent of the writer, all these others came about to support what people want the Bible to say. That is why you cannot answer the question I asked you though you claimed to be a catholic for many years. A while ago I was taking to a SDA gentleman concerning hell, when the passage of revelation 20 came up where it speaks of forever and forever, he told me that forever and forever meant for a period of time. Now even in English forever and forever means... though he admitted that the Greek word used in that passage meant eternal, this reason for believing it was a period of time is because he did not think God would do that. Nothing to do with the translation, word and anything of that nature, so basically to him forever and forever means a period of time because he wanted it to, plain and simple.

I cannot answer for Catholics, you will have to ask a priest or a maybe a bishop.

So you are saying that you take the literal meaning of everything in the bible?
How old is the earth then? According to literal biblical calculations the earth is 6000-10,000 years old

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ the lyrics for that song go:

Oh Lord you're beautiful,
Your face is all I see...

What does God's face look like?
What is the beautiful face she is envisioning?

Oh Lord, you're beautiful,
Your face is all I seek,
For when your eyes are on this child,
Your grace abounds to me.

it seems alot of ppl are divided on whether it's see or seek


I dont hear the K

[sMASH]

^^ get some better headphones, u missing some notes past 15KHz : lol :

doc, i was workin rite tru. i did not pick up on what u noticed. many people read the book and are not convinced, but some are. so praise be to god for those who are.

aliens come back in here. they may have culture, society, religion, civilization.
analogy is that of another remote area which has developed parallel with others but no major interaction of significance. they would have their own ways.
... but imagine if they have something similar to one that is on earth...

some poll was conducted in vatican, and the citizens place jesus, as either 4th or 7th most prayed to deity for assistance, mary was placed higher than him.

there were christians who lived like jesus and prayed like he prayed, so, in that way they were christians, following in the way he did. they worshiped the father like he did, and subjected their wills to his way as he did.
the others worship the messenger, and do not take note of the messages revealed. that way is to be hated, as they worship something other than the god who created everything, associate partners with him, and according to that logic structure, their concept of god would not be existing if any of the three would cease to exist, as they are dependent on each other to fulfill their.


the greek word for eternal, the scripture it was written, exact to the first dictation? may be , may be not.
some body may have heard that story and amazed by it told it to another person, and that person zealously, made the time sound so long it could be considered eternal, and then the person who wrote it wrote eternal in aramic and then it was translated into spanish and then read out to the greeks who scribed it as eternal in greek

[megadoc1]

the greek word for eternal, the scripture it was written, exact to the first dictation? may be , may be not.
some body may have heard that story and amazed by it told it to another person, and that person zealously, made the time sound so long it could be considered eternal, and then the person who wrote it wrote eternal in aramic and then it was translated into spanish and then read out to the greeks who scribed it as eternal in greek

perfect example here of guess work
when you read the bible with this attitude you end up with what you think it could/should be

[toyo682]

[quote="Duane 3NE 2NR"]I cannot answer for Catholics, you will have to ask a priest or a maybe a bishop.But are you not the one who said that you were catholic up until the time of your marriage when you converted to Islam.

So you are saying that you take the literal meaning of everything in the bible?Now that would not be the case if one were to do proper hermeneutics now would it.
How old is the earth then? According to literal biblical calculations the earth is 6000-10,000 years old. How should I know and why should I be concerned. Does it really matter at the end when it comes to my relationship with God. There are many things we will never understand. No where in the Bible does it say so, man may have estimated it to be so, but man has proven to not always be correct.