***The Official Rapid Rail Thread***

[zoom rader]

.........

All I'm hearing from y'all is:

We not ready
We cyar manage
We too lazy to pull it off
We too small

We used to be leaders, but with y'all in charge we will be destined to be followers.

We not ready - True our current mass transit system leaves a lot to be desired, many of the other transit systems require a multi-pronged approach requiring both an effective bus system to compliment the rail mechanism. Think TTC.

We cyar manage - True how many other infrastructural projects were poorly handled; Tarouba, Just recently the Highway (allegations of cost overruns etc.), The NAPA/SAPA auditoriums (poor construction), The Red House (our seat of political power still under maintenance), GTL, poorly managed state companies; Petrotrin, TSTT, WASA, our health care system is in a bit of a rut (to say the least).

We too lazy to pull it off - True our low productivity is well documented.

We too small - True compared to countries like Brazil the size of the domestic market is to a great advantage there. A small country could have chance if it were to corner the market, however it would require a highly skilled/educated and motivated population.

Question when were we leaders, and with/in what?

Sell all those state enterprises you mentioned and you will see how fast they will be turned around in private hands.

I said Rapid Rail must in private hands for it be an efficient service.

Just think when things go wrong like delays and PNM Train unions go on strike. By that time maxi operators would have lessen, what time will you get to work?

[j.o.e]

To all the naysayers ... Stay in traffic, pay market rate for gas as the subsidy is removed, continue to waste productive man hours, allow your quality of life to diminish.

[Redman]

To all the naysayers ... Stay in traffic, pay market rate for gas as the subsidy is removed, continue to waste productive man hours, allow your quality of life to diminish.

I guess the ONLY solution is a 15 year $60(?) Billion solution.

[desifemlove]

.........

All I'm hearing from y'all is:

We not ready
We cyar manage
We too lazy to pull it off
We too small

We used to be leaders, but with y'all in charge we will be destined to be followers.

We not ready - True our current mass transit system leaves a lot to be desired, many of the other transit systems require a multi-pronged approach requiring both an effective bus system to compliment the rail mechanism. Think TTC.

We cyar manage - True how many other infrastructural projects were poorly handled; Tarouba, Just recently the Highway (allegations of cost overruns etc.), The NAPA/SAPA auditoriums (poor construction), The Red House (our seat of political power still under maintenance), GTL, poorly managed state companies; Petrotrin, TSTT, WASA, our health care system is in a bit of a rut (to say the least).

We too lazy to pull it off - True our low productivity is well documented.

We too small - True compared to countries like Brazil the size of the domestic market is to a great advantage there. A small country could have chance if it were to corner the market, however it would require a highly skilled/educated and motivated population.

Question when were we leaders, and with/in what?

Sell all those state enterprises you mentioned and you will see how fast they will be turned around in private hands.

I said Rapid Rail must in private hands for it be an efficient service.

Just think when things go wrong like delays and PNM Train unions go on strike. By that time maxi operators would have lessen, what time will you get to work?

private bodies ent unionised? so we shouldn't have any mass system, cos people does like car.... but people does abuse car ownership, like driving car from chaguanas montrose junction to chaguanas downtown..when people have feet and can walk for a reason.

[desifemlove]

.........

All I'm hearing from y'all is:

We not ready
We cyar manage
We too lazy to pull it off
We too small

We used to be leaders, but with y'all in charge we will be destined to be followers.

We not ready - True our current mass transit system leaves a lot to be desired, many of the other transit systems require a multi-pronged approach requiring both an effective bus system to compliment the rail mechanism. Think TTC.

We cyar manage - True how many other infrastructural projects were poorly handled; Tarouba, Just recently the Highway (allegations of cost overruns etc.), The NAPA/SAPA auditoriums (poor construction), The Red House (our seat of political power still under maintenance), GTL, poorly managed state companies; Petrotrin, TSTT, WASA, our health care system is in a bit of a rut (to say the least).

We too lazy to pull it off - True our low productivity is well documented.

We too small - True compared to countries like Brazil the size of the domestic market is to a great advantage there. A small country could have chance if it were to corner the market, however it would require a highly skilled/educated and motivated population.

Question when were we leaders, and with/in what?

Sell all those state enterprises you mentioned and you will see how fast they will be turned around in private hands.

I said Rapid Rail must in private hands for it be an efficient service.

Just think when things go wrong like delays and PNM Train unions go on strike. By that time maxi operators would have lessen, what time will you get to work?

private bodies ent unionised?

[desifemlove]

.........

All I'm hearing from y'all is:

We not ready
We cyar manage
We too lazy to pull it off
We too small

We used to be leaders, but with y'all in charge we will be destined to be followers.

We not ready - True our current mass transit system leaves a lot to be desired, many of the other transit systems require a multi-pronged approach requiring both an effective bus system to compliment the rail mechanism. Think TTC.

We cyar manage - True how many other infrastructural projects were poorly handled; Tarouba, Just recently the Highway (allegations of cost overruns etc.), The NAPA/SAPA auditoriums (poor construction), The Red House (our seat of political power still under maintenance), GTL, poorly managed state companies; Petrotrin, TSTT, WASA, our health care system is in a bit of a rut (to say the least).

We too lazy to pull it off - True our low productivity is well documented.

We too small - True compared to countries like Brazil the size of the domestic market is to a great advantage there. A small country could have chance if it were to corner the market, however it would require a highly skilled/educated and motivated population.

Question when were we leaders, and with/in what?

so ent this an opportunity to change? ent this the issue all along, dat trinidadians lazy?

[bluesclues]

Sorry, Daran but nobody is buying your credentials you keep trying to throw out. I and many others have credentials that we don't need to wave around every time we give our option about something.

Your track record on tuner however is to come out speaking authoritatively on issues and be evidently wrong. Wrong to a point where it is obvious you are feigning knowledge about the subject. I am not saying this to dissuade you from posting but to let you know, it's not working.

rofl.

he tryin to be like mike.

but a copy is never as good as the original.

[Slartibartfast]

All I'm hearing from y'all is:

We not ready
We cyar manage
We too lazy to pull it off
We too small

We used to be leaders, but with y'all in charge we will be destined to be followers.

RASC best you leave them alone. I realised that it makes no sense trying to talk to the majority of people here. From the time you find yourself asking "If it will work" instead of "How it will work" you know you are a WOFT that contributes nothing to a solution. Nothing is perfect and any fool with fingers could point out problems. The real challenge is always figuring out how to make something work.

[Habit7]

To all the naysayers ... Stay in traffic, pay market rate for gas as the subsidy is removed, continue to waste productive man hours, allow your quality of life to diminish.

I guess the ONLY solution is a 15 year $60(?) Billion solution.

Well one solution is the $10-20 billion one which will be completed in phases and culminate at 8 years.

If we had started in 2010 we would already have a solution for Chaguanas to UWI to POS and continuing to finish the rest. But hey, when I leave Sando at 5:30am I have smooth sailing until Chaguanas then I arrive in POS after 8:00am. So productivity and fuel economy remain on fleek.

[Redman]

To all the naysayers ... Stay in traffic, pay market rate for gas as the subsidy is removed, continue to waste productive man hours, allow your quality of life to diminish.

I guess the ONLY solution is a 15 year $60(?) Billion solution.

Well one solution is the $10-20 billion one which will be completed in phases and culminate at 8 years.

If we had started in 2010 we would already have a solution for Chaguanas to UWI to POS and continuing to finish the rest. But hey, when I leave Sando at 5:30am I have smooth sailing until Chaguanas then I arrive in POS after 8:00am. So productivity and fuel economy remain on fleek.

It would have moved along like......

Brian Lara Stadium?...on yuh right
or Petrotrin HQ...on yuh left.
Or the Govt Campus...

Or get hit with a 50% increase like the Highway.

You could imagine Kamla and Co with a that kinda project?

The budget now is 10B TTD...I know there was argument over the currency..hence the ??

[Habit7]

It would have moved along like......

Brian Lara Stadium?...on yuh right
or Petrotrin HQ...on yuh left.
Or the Govt Campus...

Or get hit with a 50% increase like the Highway.

You could imagine Kamla and Co with a that kinda project?

The budget now is 10B TTD...I know there was argument over the currency..hence the ??

So by your logic we shouldn't do the BRT either because it would be overpriced and behind schedule too.

Also the Sydney Opera House, the Channel Tunnel and the Boston Big Dig should not have been done because of cost overruns and not being on schedule. Because we all know major infrastructural projects are always on time and on budget in developed countries right?

It is only us knuckle dragging, third world, colonial backwater dwelling, banana republicans that are destined to drive our foriegn used cars on pothole ridden roads. Again because only we have pothole ridden roads, all roads in US and UK are smooth as glass.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

All I'm hearing from y'all is:

We not ready
We cyar manage
We too lazy to pull it off
We too small

We used to be leaders, but with y'all in charge we will be destined to be followers.

RASC best you leave them alone. I realised that it makes no sense trying to talk to the majority of people here. From the time you find yourself asking "If it will work" instead of "How it will work" you know you are a WOFT that contributes nothing to a solution. Nothing is perfect and any fool with fingers could point out problems. The real challenge is always figuring out how to make something work.

Yup. All I hearing is how it can't work and looking at other projects with cost overruns. Best we do nothing then and twiddle our thumbs. Foh with that logic.

IDB managed projects are very different from petrotrin building a hq or udecott doing Brian Lara stadium. I would have been a lot happier if IDB funded the highway extension versus directly from the treasury.

[zoom rader]

It would have moved along like......

Brian Lara Stadium?...on yuh right
or Petrotrin HQ...on yuh left.
Or the Govt Campus...

Or get hit with a 50% increase like the Highway.

You could imagine Kamla and Co with a that kinda project?

The budget now is 10B TTD...I know there was argument over the currency..hence the ??

So by your logic we shouldn't do the BRT either because it would be overpriced and behind schedule too.

Also the Sydney Opera House, the Channel Tunnel and the Boston Big Dig should not have been done because of cost overruns and not being on schedule. Because we all know major infrastructural projects are always on time and on budget in developed countries right?

It is only us knuckle dragging, third world, colonial backwater dwelling, banana republicans that are destined to drive our foriegn used cars on pothole ridden roads. Again because only we have pothole ridden roads, all roads in US and UK are smooth as glass.

Sydney Opera House was private enterprise

Channel Tunnel was private enterprise .

Boston Big dig well....

The Big Dig was the most expensive highway project in the US, and was plagued by escalating costs, scheduling overruns, leaks, design flaws, charges of poor execution and use of substandard materials, criminal arrests,[2][3] and one death.[4] The project was originally scheduled to be completed in 1998[5] at an estimated cost of $2.8 billion (in 1982 dollars, US$6.0 billion adjusted for inflation as of 2006).[6] However, the project was completed only in December 2007, at a cost of over $14.6 billion ($8.08 billion in 1982 dollars, meaning a cost overrun of about 190%)[6] as of 2006.[7] The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it will not be paid off until 2038.[8] As a result of the death, leaks, and other design flaws, the consortium that oversaw the project agreed to pay $407 million in restitution, and several smaller companies agreed to pay a combined sum of approximately $51 million.[9]

Racket rail will be in PNM hands and we all know of PNM dealings in Mega projects

[Habit7]

Racket rail will be in PNM hands and we all know of PNM dealings in Mega projects

PNM needs to follow UNC legacy of Piarco Airport terminal, Point Fortin Hwy, Couva Hospital, Aquacentre and Velodrome all on time and on budget.

[zoom rader]

Racket rail will be in PNM hands and we all know of PNM dealings in Mega projects

PNM needs to follow UNC legacy of Piarco Airport terminal, Point Fortin Hwy, Couva Hospital, Aquacentre and Velodrome all on time and on budget.

ah still waiting for Project Pride to be completed

[Redman]

It would have moved along like......

Brian Lara Stadium?...on yuh right
or Petrotrin HQ...on yuh left.
Or the Govt Campus...

Or get hit with a 50% increase like the Highway.

You could imagine Kamla and Co with a that kinda project?

The budget now is 10B TTD...I know there was argument over the currency..hence the ??

So by your logic we shouldn't do the BRT either because it would be overpriced and behind schedule too.

Also the Sydney Opera House, the Channel Tunnel and the Boston Big Dig should not have been done because of cost overruns and not being on schedule. Because we all know major infrastructural projects are always on time and on budget in developed countries right?

It is only us knuckle dragging, third world, colonial backwater dwelling, banana republicans that are destined to drive our foriegn used cars on pothole ridden roads. Again because only we have pothole ridden roads, all roads in US and UK are smooth as glass.

BY YOUR LOGIC what we should so is take on the project ignoring the factual experiences we have had...Lets not creep before we walk.Build it we will be fus world with a bess train...cause it work elsewhere.
We should use the same methods as the BLS and Petrotrin and ignore that the 5 year change will break up the project flow.

NONE of the countries youve cited executed the plan without proper analysis.

None of the projects were done in an environment that lacked the accountability and transparency that plagues us NOW.

None were without proper checks and balances...which we know we weak on.

What has changed since the PNM started the BL and PHQ...or the unc the Highway.????????

Not one fack.

Ive stated that what we need is PROPER ANALYSIS.
and a POLICY

and a cohesive PLAN.

If an independent study says do it and the proper management can be put in place so the project is properly executed the do it.
I think we could look at alternatives while we doing the study

in the same way you have to prove yourself to your employer by how you execute your job on an ongoing basis...BEFORE a promotion.....GORTT as an entity(not a party) needs to demonstrate the maturity and ability to do this....OR the willingness to set controls in place to get it done properly.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

Redman how can you say it's the same method as the petrotrin HQ when that was internally funded by Petrotrin? How is that in anyway close to how IDB funds projects?

[Trinispougla]

All I'm hearing from y'all is:

We not ready
We cyar manage
We too lazy to pull it off
We too small

We used to be leaders, but with y'all in charge we will be destined to be followers.

RASC best you leave them alone. I realised that it makes no sense trying to talk to the majority of people here. From the time you find yourself asking "If it will work" instead of "How it will work" you know you are a WOFT that contributes nothing to a solution. Nothing is perfect and any fool with fingers could point out problems. The real challenge is always figuring out how to make something work.

Yup. All I hearing is how it can't work and looking at other projects with cost overruns. Best we do nothing then and twiddle our thumbs. Foh with that logic.

IDB managed projects are very different from petrotrin building a hq or udecott doing Brian Lara stadium. I would have been a lot happier if IDB funded the highway extension versus directly from the treasury.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Saying that we are to small is pretzel logic. If that is the case, then we should do like Bermuda and only allow families two cars if one of the members is a doctor. As it is, we have the most vehicles per capita in the world. Iceland is smaller that Trinidad and they are planning to put a mass transit system between their two airports. While Suriname is much bigger than Trinidad, the space people inhabit is less than ten percent of the total landspace, the vast majority of people, like Guyana live on the coast and they approved a rail since 2013. The GOTT virtually is doing nothing on that project. The rail is going to be above ground so the majority of areas being affected. The IDB right now is BUILDING not only funding, hundreds of projects all over Latin America and the Caribbean, including Haiti. They are building dams, schools, roads, railroads. In fact, the IDB was specifically created for developing countries.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

It should be noted that IDB doesn't just hand you all the money and says "hey do your thing."

[Trinispougla]

No they don't They have a feasibility study done. A big part of this study is your ability to pay back the loan. This is the reason for years, Haiti and Honduras could only sign agreements and MOU's and smile in foront of cameras

[sMASH]

the rapid rail would achive its purpose. But how much of the traffic it would ease would be a guess. I suppose ye travelling public would merely shift modes from taxi, maxi, and buss to tthe rail. Depending of the ticket price/commute time and persons per hour moving rate, would determine how many vehicles it would replace.

I am all for removing the subsidy on fuel prices. This would drive more persons into more energy conserving ways of going to work. This way u get more persons moving per unit fuel used, and space occupied on Tue road.

The only reason why the rail would be able to reach its destinations faster than the busses is because they would be on dedicated tracks, where no oher vehicle would normally be able to impede its progress.

If u implement bus lanes with photo ticketing to deter he public from transgressing onto the bus lanes, u may be able to acheive the same amount of freemovement as.the rail. The thing is, the restriction on bus lanes can be removed after peak commute hours to allow use by the general public. This means u get more usage out of hat system per investment.

Or u can even have restriction of trucks at commute times. Have them either go on the roads before and after commute times.

With the rail I not seeing it being used after peak times yo a great extent. With the expanded roadways u csn have more usage after its main purpose is not required.

Having low cost suburban residential areas where mainly local commute modes is necessary, would also ease the strain on the longer commute avenues.


The rapid rail will work, but the cost to implement compared to the usage it will provide, verses a bus transit system, is not enough.

The money saved can be used to do more in the country. U can acheive practically the same ease up on traffic, with more useage after peak times, with more left over to do more things around the country, with less money.


U still have to repay a loan. Its not free money.

[Redman]

Redman how can you say it's the same method as the petrotrin HQ when that was internally funded by Petrotrin? How is that in anyway close to how IDB funds projects?

Funding isnt the issue here.

Petrotrin as a loss making enterprise owned by the state means the shortfall comes from......??????

the HQ is a glaring example of what a poorly planed PNM sponsored venture can be when the UNC leaves it to gain political points.Where is the accountability ?????

My point is just that we have to solve some issues first...do the political parties have the maturity to continue projects that were initiated by the other guys and complete them properly??...not heng them out to dry so they can make political examples??

As a people we are capable but as a young nation we not there yet.
Or are we?

And please done be simplistic and say that Im advocating donkey carts and remaining static.
Im advocating being honest with where we are.

The RR should not be used as a social experiment.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

Redman you need to calm down lol. Your post didn't answer anything related to how Petrotrin handles projects such as that HQ versus how IDB handles projects.

Also that HQ has nothing to do with politics and all to do with cash flows. Petrotrin can't afford to finish it and efforts were put forward to have it completed while under the PP as well.

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

Even though fuel subsidy will be largely removed when the RR is online, we must remember the amount of money we will also be saving and our TIME with free flow will be a plus.

How much gas do people burn sitting 3 hours in Traffic every day with AC on? people forget this and say OMG we go lose fuel subsidy and now we hadda pay more even though they will be flowing quite freely as less cars will be on the roads.

[EmilioA]

Sydney Opera House was private enterprise

Channel Tunnel was private enterprise .

What azz you talking about ? Yes private companies built it, but both those project were government tenders. Which is going to be the same situation with the RR.

[Redman]

Redman you need to calm down lol.

Im dead calm....befuddled by your response.

Your post didn't answer anything related to how Petrotrin handles projects such as that HQ versus how IDB handles projects.

Funding isnt the issue here.

Also that HQ has nothing to do with politics and all to do with cash flows. Petrotrin can't afford to finish it and efforts were put forward to have it completed while under the PP as well.

The Petrotrin HQ,BLS et al demonstrate poor planning and execution...thats all.
I thought that was clear.

The fact that it remained undealt with 2010-15 with record oil prices is another question.
Maybe Petrotrin(and the state ie US) are saddled with another poorly planned and executed project?
WGTL.

As a state enterprise Political control is absolute and real...

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

Redman you need to calm down lol.

Im dead calm....befuddled by your response.

Your post didn't answer anything related to how Petrotrin handles projects such as that HQ versus how IDB handles projects.

Funding isnt the issue here.

Also that HQ has nothing to do with politics and all to do with cash flows. Petrotrin can't afford to finish it and efforts were put forward to have it completed while under the PP as well.

The Petrotrin HQ,BLS et al demonstrate poor planning and execution...thats all.
I thought that was clear.

The fact that it remained undealt with 2010-15 with record oil prices is another question.
Maybe Petrotrin(and the state ie US) are saddled with another poorly planned and executed project?
WGTL.

As a state enterprise Political control is absolute and real...

Record high oil prices but the company has debt due to not only wgtl but also ulsd and the gasoline optimization program. The headquarters were started when the company was flush with money. It was payin for the headquarters out of its own pockets. No loan. When oil prices dropped in 2008/2009 the company had cash flow problems ever since. It is not a case of the company having money now and the PP refusing to allow the finishing of the project.

IDB project would be handled differently than what you keep alluding to.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

If poor planning and execution is what you really fear then you should embrace IDB funding.

[zoom rader]

Sydney Opera House was private enterprise

Channel Tunnel was private enterprise .

What azz you talking about ? Yes private companies built it, but both those project were government tenders. Which is going to be the same situation with the RR.

What azz you taking about bro. I brought shares in Euro Tunnell

The tunnel is a build-own-operate-transfer (BOOT) project with a concession.[31] TML would design and build the tunnel, but financing was through a separate legal entity, Eurotunnel. Eurotunnel absorbed CTG/F-M and signed a construction contract with TML, but the British and French governments controlled final engineering and safety decisions, now in the hands of the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority. The British and French governments gave Eurotunnel a 55- (later 65-) year operating concession to repay loans and pay dividends. A Railway Usage Agreement was signed between Eurotunnel, British Rail and SNCF guaranteeing future revenue in exchange for the railways obtaining half of the tunnel's capacity.

Private funding for such a complex infrastructure project was of unprecedented scale. An initial equity of £45 million was raised by CTG/F-M, increased by £206 million private institutional placement, £770 million was raised in a public share offer that included press and television advertisements, a syndicated bank loan and letter of credit arranged £5 billion.[12] Privately financed, the total investment costs at 1985 prices were £2600 million. At the 1994 completion actual costs were, in 1985 prices, £4650 million: an 80% cost overrun.[14] The cost overrun was partly due to enhanced safety, security, and environmental demands.[31] Financing costs were 140% higher than forecast.[32]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel


Sydney Opera House was paid for by selling tickets .

The Sydney Opera House cost some $160 million to build and was paid for by the public who bought $10 tickets in a series of lotteries with a first prize of $1 million.

As I said all private enterprise , Here in Trini the PNM wants you to pay for racket rail via direct taxes.

[Redman]

ecord high oil prices but the company has debt due to not only wgtl but also ulsd and the gasoline optimization program. The headquarters were started when the company was flush with money. It was payin for the headquarters out of its own pockets. No loan. When oil prices dropped in 2008/2009 the company had cash flow problems ever since. It is not a case of the company having money now and the PP refusing to allow the finishing of the project.

Oil prices were below 70 for about only 8 months. After a spike to 120+
They didnt hit 70 again till Nov 2014
Spending most of its time north of 90.

How the ULSD and GO projects going???

The net result is .....failed projects.
Root cause ....bad planning and execution.
Oil prices fluctuate.
This isnt new.
And definitely should not be a surprise to Petrotrin

DB project would be handled differently than what you keep alluding to.

Upon what are you basing this on??
Expand nah.

Clarify the repayment conditions as yuh there.
tenks