The Religion Discussion

[bluefete]

^^ and the point is, to determine when to open it and when to close it.
why dont u try analyzing what u encounter and see if it makes sense, before accepting it. i dont mean see if it is in line with what u knew before, simply see its merits and its flaws.

so same thing with avatar... believe it or not, i understand what u say about its allusion to the dark side. but it have a few very applicable points. i did not like how the lady lick the blood and how they make the navi so much like american indians. but that was teh inspiration the guy had.

and i dont really need to see more cg sex scenes, the original drove the point home

I agree with you on the different perspectives. Trust me, I also saw the basics - imperialism, global domination, good versus evil; harmonization with nature and so on.

But the dark side really stuck out, for me.

Even you had the presence of mind to understand the link between the Na'vi and the native American Indians. That point was lost on many people.

[sMASH]

but wiht the american indians, i thought it was not alien enough,,, it too normal. needed to be more different. mighta seem more alien if the navi was more like the spider monkey. but if it was more lke the spider monkey, then it would not be able to seem attractive to a human.

i not asserting the links to american indains is evil, but i thinking along the lines of creativity,, is more like blue american indians with tails.

[bluefete]

but wiht the american indians, i thought it was not alien enough,,, it too normal. needed to be more different. mighta seem more alien if the navi was more like the spider monkey. but if it was more lke the spider monkey, then it would not be able to seem attractive to a human.

i not asserting the links to american indains is evil, but i thinking along the lines of creativity,, is more like blue american indians with tails.

Agreed. But why would you think of American indians to start with? Was this deliberate on the part of the director?

"Blue American indians with tails": Wow! Whatever was the director thinking about?

Why did Australian aborigines not come to your mind?

[d spike]

Ah Spikey, lad. You and Duane and several others have postulated your interpretations about what Avatar was all about. Good Vs evil, tra la la and so on. Likewise, me. The difference is that I have seen things that many people have not seen (or refuse to even see).

So what it depicts BELOW the surface is far MORE important than what people detect on the surface. So Mr. Cameron said it clearly enough for me.

Somewhere above there, you missed the humour as well. Dry as it might have been.

While I agree that differing views can be had about the same thing, you were clearly not stating a view... you were stating a reality - or what you fancied it to be. The dogmatic tone you used is not suited for stating a view. "It seems to me..." is vastly different to "This IS what it is."
You clearly didn't read this, even though you responded to it:

Critiquing a story isn't done the same way as a factual or argumentative article. One doesn't start tearing it apart and then criticizing each piece. You have to look and see what the author was trying to say, then decide whether he said it clearly enough.
If you look too closely at a mirror, all you see is glass.

Your seeing "what it depicts BELOW the surface" seems more like paranoia that discernment.

If your weak explanation for the "Painted green" remark is an attempt at humour, this means (apart from implying that you were wrong) that your humour isn't 'dry', it's 'dried up'. Your concept of wit is half of what it should be.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^^ and the point is, to determine when to open it and when to close it.
why dont u try analyzing what u encounter and see if it makes sense, before accepting it. i dont mean see if it is in line with what u knew before

this is what bluefete and megadoc1 are doing it seems. They are only open to things they want to believe. if something might not agree with their beliefs then they reject it and will not even read it.

[d spike]

The Bible never stated that the earth was the centre of the universe.
That was church doctrine/dogma.

That's a very interesting way of explaining an error:
When people believe something based on what they read in scripture, as long as it isn't disproven, then "that's faith in a sure thing!", and anathema should be thundered down on those heathen unbelievers Megadoc-style...
When reality dawns, and it's clear that a grievous mistake was made in the interpretation... well, then it's "wasn't this person who erred...", "that was the fault of the church (not us christians, mind you) their dogma..."

Dogma, my red seam. The geocentric system is based on scriptural interpretation - just like all other Christian beliefs. It just so happened that one was a misfire.

[Kasey]

^true

[d spike]

There is a saying that if you keep your mind wide open, people will throw garbage into it.

There is also a saying that just because something SOUNDS smart, doesn't mean it is.
There is a vast difference between an intelligent person - capable of, and accustomed using rational thought - paying attention to the great display-board of life, and weighing carefully what he observes... and the naive and unknowing person who swallows everything quite happily, blissfully unaware of harm or help.
The difference, Bluefete, is wisdom - that which was lacking in the making of the quote above.

[Kasey]

There is a saying that if you keep your mind wide open, people will throw garbage into it.

Whoever said this is a blithering idiot.

[sMASH]

^^ imagine the guy hu came up with it. after many moons of being being completely open minded, and following all that he encountered, finally realized he was an idiot. and just as simply as he decided to be open minded, he reverted to rejecting all concepts new, and was the same idiot but in the other direction.

being open is being receptive, and does not mean totally accepting.
when u get something new, investigate it, evaluate it, play with it a little.
... and dont judge it by your own standards, judge it by its. if it is different from yours, it would automatically be wrong, if u compare it to what u have. that is what i mean by play with it,

[QG]

^

There was a wonderful article in today's Newsday where a Pundit explained the virtues of Jesus' philosophy, including the importance of The Lord's Prayer. The gist of the article was that we should pray for others not for ourselves.

There is a saying that if you keep your mind wide open, people will throw garbage into it.

To prevent that happening, you must close it sometimes.

I agree with you on the Cuffie point.

hahaha i like that saying, but I can assure you that no one can throw garbage into my mind.
Being open minded is not about agreeing with everything that is put infront your eyes, but it is the ability to see or understand what people are saying from their point of view without attacking or chastising(think i spelt it correctly) them eact time they do it.

Christians throw a blind eye to scientists, and I can understand why.
But is it so wrong to just see what new findings the scientists has found bluefete?
You don't have to believe in it, but check it out.

[d spike]

...being open is being receptive... when u get something new, investigate it, evaluate it...

Fundamentalism does not make allowances for the concept of open-mindedness to exist. To do so would mean that there is material worthy of one's attention outside their treasured scriptures, in other words, their scriptures would then be considered incomplete from their point of view - a view totally alien and counter to their beliefs.
Of course, they speak of being "open", but that is just lip-service. To admit that new ideas exist out there, that there are correct concepts not stated the way they see fit within the covers of their book, is anathema to the fundamentalist.

[QG]

Bluefete, God sent Ezekiel into a village of whoremongers, idolors, all the sin you could think about...to spread the word FROM God and to warn them to turn from their wicked ways.

God told him that he will meet a heavy resistance from the villagers, if no one take heed of God's message, exit the village and dust your feet. God eventually sent Troops to kill everyone in that village...NOT ONE WAS SPEARED!

Bluefete, if God knew that Ezekiel would be faced with heavy resistance, why did God sent him in the first place??
*Don't answer the question, I am just making a point*

What I am trying to say is that you don't have to throw a blind eye to Non-Christians, Scientists etc, but instead, hear them out, look at the situation from all angles before you come to a decision; although some of them here did not keep an open mind to Chritianity!

[sMASH]

what exactly is 'bad' about idolatry? why are we warned against it in some of our religious texts?
by 'our' i mean humans in general.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

what exactly is 'bad' about idolatry? why are we warned against it in some of our religious texts?
by 'our' i mean humans in general.

God is a jealous and vengeful God

that's why

[sMASH]

i knew that would pop up, but i want to know if there is mental/social/psychological mechanism which is bad so we should not do it. what about god being 'jealous', why would god be jealous of a stone?

some times i see things which are warned against, and there are good reasons, some times not stated to actually follow the instruction. i want to know what is so bad other than the instruction, i mean, if we did not have the instruction would it be ok to use idols, or would there still be bad things, is just that we dont have instructions stopping us from doing so.

is like this, we dont have an instruction to not jump into the volcanoes, but we deduce it is bad, so we dont. but we have an instruction to stay away from idols, i would like to know is there any thing bad about it, other than the fact that we disobeying an instruction, that we should not do it.

[Kasey]

When hindus worship, they worship god. I dont know the scriptures very well, but I am sure of its intent. My understanding of hinduism's teachings is that it is always clear that there is one GOD, not many. And like different roles of one person, they recognise that in their limited understanding, God has different roles, hence the many forms (what the critics refer to as many gods).
Example I am a father, a son, an engineer, a DJ, a mechanic. Depending on the circles that I am in, the people that share my role interest will think of me in the way they see me. When I am DJ-ing, I am DJ, when I am fixing car, I am a mechanic. Am I plural?
Hindus dont pray to idols, they pray to the ONE divinity represented by the murtis (idols).

[d spike]

That "jealous God" talk was a father warning his brats... sometimes, an explanation that is the simplest may not be the most accurate. The "One God" idea was a relatively new one back then.
Idolatry may be most easily understood by looking at the development of the deity concept over time. We view things from our perspective, meaning we see things in human terms - hence the reason why we think that a chimp's grin means that he's happy, when it actually is a sign of fear.
Man realized that somebody had to have constructed his world, and somebody had to be in charge of things. Why did it rain? What are stars? Why does a living friend stop living?
These and all the other questions (that science wasn't around to answer ) that he had, were easily answered by the statement: the god did it. And so, each group of people quickly recognized and then named gods for every important aspect of nature . (One guy, one job, right?) A god of rain, a god of death, a god of lost car keys... this served a useful purpose, as one had someone to beg, placate, pacify, and blame.

If you are a monotheist (WITH an open mind), then you would easily identify the Creator's hand in all this: the guiding of Man to recognize, not different gods, but different aspects of one God.
(Of course, it would be a lot faster to just nominate one group of humans who recognize you already, and grant them success in battle on the condition that they convert everyone they defeat. QED. )

Idolatry in our time is still relevant. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" can refer to the placing of other items before God (or more precisely, our concept of Him) as the focal point in our lives. For example, if money is the most important thing in one's life, then God has been asked to take a back seat in one's life... or revenge can easily replace the concept of right over wrong...

The interesting thing about those who claim to spurn idolatry, is what then do they hold at the centre of their lives? "God," they will glibly answer... but as God is a concept of which no more can be seen until the next life, what is their focus? A book? Going to a meeting-place in their best duds? Clapping and making noise?
No. In order to focus on God, we end up focusing on each other - one's fellow-man and his well-being... exactly what the Christ was talking about.
In searching for God, we end up finding each other. In caring for each other, we actually draw nearer to God.

[illumin@ti]

<insert Megadoc rant about spike fooling ppl and being a trixter>

[QG]

what exactly is 'bad' about idolatry? why are we warned against it in some of our religious texts?
by 'our' i mean humans in general.

God is a jealous and vengeful God

that's why

Well according to the bible, God is a Jealous God.
Smash, try to think of it this way...You have 2 kids that you sacrifice for into ensuring they have a great life ok.
After you have done all things possible for them, they turn around and start to worship a next man instead of you...How Would You Feel?

That's how I get it and can come close to describing it to you as to why the Bible would state God is a Jealous God.
God made man in his image and likeness...so I assume just as we HUMANS feel jealousy, I think that God would too (based on the biblical scriptures).

[QG]

I feeling to Preach today
Let me share something to you all and my Christian Brothers and Sisters!

The bible teaches us NOT to judge each other. We are not to condemned anyone who is not of our faith or religion.
We cannot judge and say because someone is of Muslim and Hindu Faith dies, that they will go to Hell because God works things out in a way WE CANNOT SEE.
Someone can save their soul and/or change their everlasting faith within seconds once they accept the Lord Jesus in their Hearts even BEFORE DEATH!

We may never know if they did so before they die..not so??
For God is Love, God is Life, God is Merciful, God is Mysterious!

[MG Man]

lol god..................sheesh
this world to 'god' is a red bean sprout in a cup with wet napkins to a six year old.........

[megadoc1]

<insert Megadoc rant about spike fooling ppl and being a trixter>nah I have come away from that , I have since learned something very valuable and with it I also learnt to let d spike be
you see followers of Jesus have something at their disposal that no one else have and that is the works of faith in Christ Jesus

what exactly is 'bad' about idolatry? why are we warned against it in some of our religious texts?
by 'our' i mean humans in general.

God is a jealous and vengeful God

that's why

and the very idol is your own enemy and makes you an enemy to God

Well according to the bible, God is a Jealous God.
Smash, try to think of it this way...You have 2 kids that you sacrifice for into ensuring they have a great life ok.
After you have done all things possible for them, they turn around and start to worship a next man instead of you...How Would You Feel?

That's how I get it and can come close to describing it to you as to why the Bible would state God is a Jealous God.
God made man in his image and likeness...so I assume just as we HUMANS feel jealousy, I think that God would too (based on the biblical scriptures).also it was a command God gave to protect us from being destroyed by the very things we chose to put before him ...anything you put before the true and living God, (the God of Israel) is an idol and that very god(insert idol here) becomes your destruction

I feeling to Preach today
Let me share something to you all and my Christian Brothers and Sisters!

The bible teaches us NOT to judge each other.each other as in brothers and sisters ? or the world? We are not to condemned anyone who is not of our faith or religion.nope we are to preach the word to them so they can be saved ,that is one of the reasons why we are still alive on this earth after we gave our life to Christ, but they are as we once was ,already condemned (yes I was already condemned too but I accepted God's saving grace)but if one give his life to Christ, he escapes God's judgment upon him but if he don't accept in faith what God has done for him,he will recieve it(his judgment)
We cannot judge and say because someone is of Muslim and Hindu Faith dies, that they will go to Hell because God works things out in a way WE CANNOT SEE. but we can judge and say if one doesn't receive God's saving grace , he is lost ent? because God worked things out His way ,in the open on the cross high and lifted up and all one must do to receive it is to take it in faith

Someone can save their soul and/or change their everlasting faith within seconds once they accept the Lord Jesus in their Hearts even BEFORE DEATH! probably but why take chances ? none of us knows our "BEFORE DEATH" time or how it will come about

We may never know if they did so before they die..not so?? nope
For God is Love, trueGod is Life,true God is Merciful, yesGod is Mysterious! not quite true

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

When hindus worship, they worship god. I dont know the scriptures very well, but I am sure of its intent. My understanding of hinduism's teachings is that it is always clear that there is one GOD, not many. And like different roles of one person, they recognise that in their limited understanding, God has different roles, hence the many forms (what the critics refer to as many gods).
Example I am a father, a son, an engineer, a DJ, a mechanic. Depending on the circles that I am in, the people that share my role interest will think of me in the way they see me. When I am DJ-ing, I am DJ, when I am fixing car, I am a mechanic. Am I plural?
Hindus dont pray to idols, they pray to the ONE divinity represented by the murtis (idols).

very interesting analogy, thank you for this!

On another note I have always found that vedic religions stress alot on inner peace. "Chant and be happy" sounds so beautiful, as opposed to "serve God, your feelings and those around you are irrelevant".

[sMASH]

^^ well not to a 6 year old , but its insignificance and simplicity is on par or even less than that of the red bean sprout.

we are told that this universe, all that we know of is very insignificantly small that it is compared to a ring tossed into a desert where the ring is our universe of existence and the desert is like a heaven.

we do not save our selves from hell fire, that is only up to god. he alone will judge who goin where. we do good deeds because he commanded us to do them. for we were created only for his worship. the reward for following his commandments is paradise. we do not save our selves, only god decides on judgment day, if we really did what we were capable of doing.

god being jealous, no. i feel that is a human's way of describing an example to another human. god has no reason to be jealous. nothing he has created can compete with him.
... it come like dis, u have the best tuned gallery system with 2 18" TSNS, and u jealous the youth with the chinee fone rockin movado with the other youths..... nah dais chalk and cheese.

god could wipe us out at will and recreate us exactly the way we were, if he wants he could change us,,, if he wants. he has no reason to be jealous, dat is how u does chain up men, make them jealous and then they loose their cool and look stupid over reacting.

again god does not need our praise, he just demands it. it doesnt matter to him if we dont praise him, it matters to us.

we are told that god has no 'image' or form we can comprehend. making an image just wouldnt make sense, if the goal is to make sumthing god like.

i understand the hindu concept of the idols, it make sense, in that it is rational or logical.

the last part of what spike come with, is one of the intentions of islam. we cannot do any thing which can benefit god nor decrease him. we cannot rub his feet to make him feel nice, we cannot feed him to calm his hunger. but, he wants us to be good little bipeds, so how we goin to demonstrate our attempts at being good? by being good to our fellow creation.
we have the choice to do good or bad, that is how we are similar to god, the mere fact we have the ability to choose. he want us to do good, and gave us incentive to do so.

but i think that christians are much like the isrealites when moses (pbuh) left them. they were so hung up on having a physical form to latch on their beliefs to that they made their substitute in the form of the calf. some christians have physical representations but others have symbolic representations of god. when christ(pbuh) came, they used him as an 'idol' for god. when he continuously said things like he was the way and he was the light, they took that literally.
they use christ (pbuh) in place of god.

now, to understand how i see that, is like this, if us use the pic or the statue of him supposedly on the cross, and u give that great honor and status in the church or home, some others like mega and blue might see that as idolatry as they not worshiping god so much as the statue. eventually they may stop seeing the wood for the trees and the descendants would know to worship the statue not knowing that it was just a representation of something and placed all the value in the object.
blue and dem dont use physical idols, but still place jesus (pbuh) in front of worshiping god.
so is like a symbolic idol, like the symbolic cannibalism and the symbolic vampire-ism.
they place all their worship of god into these acts of worshiping him, and place no value in doing the good deeds to the rest of creation

in order to honor the statue u devote a lot of money to flowers and offerings to it, and not giving it to the poor.
many in society are looked down upon because it is believed that they go to hell because they help one another instead of uttering one statement.
in islam, the people are the same thing, they dont understand the concepts, they just do what they learned to do, and continue to do it. they recite the words, do the actions, but dont think about why they do what they do or what message the words they recite contain.

the thing is, after all the investigate analysis of the bible, all the good messages u get, none of it benefits u. u still come back to the first and fundamental structure, which is belief that christ is god/son of (astagfirallah). and this belief structure does not place value on the rest of its teachings. that is why many can claim they dont need the bible and work by inspiration.

in islam our defining statement is that there is no god but the one god.
immediately, we are to believe that there is no god. so all the concepts, or misconceptions, or other things which dominate our lives like the money or the cars or the status, we need to get rid of them. nothing that we have encountered, no man, no object, has any real power or should be followed as though it had real power. when we have cleared our minds about these other creations, we place value to the one god, creator of all things, the singular one power full to give us paradise or hell. the one whom does not exist in this creation.
and if we believe that, then we would believe that the only way to do service to him, is to do service to our fellow creation, as he is all powerful, and cannot benefit from our actions.

[sMASH]

a christian was trying to explain the concept of the triune god or trinity to a muslim.
at last, he showed the guy a carriage with three persons and said that is how three in one is.
the muslim guy said "no. show me one person in three carriages and then u would have demonstrated the concept of the trinity", i.e. one god being three persons

[QG]

Well smash, i know you and others will see it difficult to understand the Holy Trinity!
But that's alright, not everyone sees things the same.

Try to think of it like this:
God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit work TOGETHER as one!
The Holy Spirit acts as the link...even for God and his earthly children (us).

[Chimera]

Holy Spirit .

this chap?

[MG Man]

nah
he is jus ah regular babooman

[Alpha_2nr]

^^ well not to a 6 year old , but its insignificance and simplicity is on par or even less than that of the red bean sprout.

we are told that this universe, all that we know of is very insignificantly small that it is compared to a ring tossed into a desert where the ring is our universe of existence and the desert is like a heaven.

we do not save our selves from hell fire, that is only up to god. he alone will judge who goin where. we do good deeds because he commanded us to do them. for we were created only for his worship. the reward for following his commandments is paradise. we do not save our selves, only god decides on judgment day, if we really did what we were capable of doing.

god being jealous, no. i feel that is a human's way of describing an example to another human. god has no reason to be jealous. nothing he has created can compete with him.
... it come like dis, u have the best tuned gallery system with 2 18" TSNS, and u jealous the youth with the chinee fone rockin movado with the other youths..... nah dais chalk and cheese.

god could wipe us out at will and recreate us exactly the way we were, if he wants he could change us,,, if he wants. he has no reason to be jealous, dat is how u does chain up men, make them jealous and then they loose their cool and look stupid over reacting.

again god does not need our praise, he just demands it. it doesnt matter to him if we dont praise him, it matters to us.

we are told that god has no 'image' or form we can comprehend. making an image just wouldnt make sense, if the goal is to make sumthing god like.

i understand the hindu concept of the idols, it make sense, in that it is rational or logical.

the last part of what spike come with, is one of the intentions of islam. we cannot do any thing which can benefit god nor decrease him. we cannot rub his feet to make him feel nice, we cannot feed him to calm his hunger. but, he wants us to be good little bipeds, so how we goin to demonstrate our attempts at being good? by being good to our fellow creation.
we have the choice to do good or bad, that is how we are similar to god, the mere fact we have the ability to choose. he want us to do good, and gave us incentive to do so.

but i think that christians are much like the isrealites when moses (pbuh) left them. they were so hung up on having a physical form to latch on their beliefs to that they made their substitute in the form of the calf. some christians have physical representations but others have symbolic representations of god. when christ(pbuh) came, they used him as an 'idol' for god. when he continuously said things like he was the way and he was the light, they took that literally.
they use christ (pbuh) in place of god.

now, to understand how i see that, is like this, if us use the pic or the statue of him supposedly on the cross, and u give that great honor and status in the church or home, some others like mega and blue might see that as idolatry as they not worshiping god so much as the statue. eventually they may stop seeing the wood for the trees and the descendants would know to worship the statue not knowing that it was just a representation of something and placed all the value in the object.
blue and dem dont use physical idols, but still place jesus (pbuh) in front of worshiping god.
so is like a symbolic idol, like the symbolic cannibalism and the symbolic vampire-ism.
they place all their worship of god into these acts of worshiping him, and place no value in doing the good deeds to the rest of creation

in order to honor the statue u devote a lot of money to flowers and offerings to it, and not giving it to the poor.
many in society are looked down upon because it is believed that they go to hell because they help one another instead of uttering one statement.
in islam, the people are the same thing, they dont understand the concepts, they just do what they learned to do, and continue to do it. they recite the words, do the actions, but dont think about why they do what they do or what message the words they recite contain.

the thing is, after all the investigate analysis of the bible, all the good messages u get, none of it benefits u. u still come back to the first and fundamental structure, which is belief that christ is god/son of (astagfirallah). and this belief structure does not place value on the rest of its teachings. that is why many can claim they dont need the bible and work by inspiration.

Some mighty excellent points there sir - especially those I highlighted. It's something I guess other folks were alluding to in previous threads.

The very fact that some folks take religious teachings/stories/parables literally, and others, metaphorically, shows the difference among human beings when it comes to understanding and interpretation. And that difference could centre around just ONE religions text....and to think there are multiple religions and texts out there!

Shouldn't folks be allowed to find their OWN way to God/A greater power/Spirituality etc, rather than have a method or practice imposed on them?