The Religion Discussion

[Humes]

Let's see how scientists can work in Harmony with God.

...

bluefete, a few things:

- Science makes no statement on the morality of abortion. So I don't see what your point is in bring abortion into a debate about scientists. The first people who were having abortions and performing them weren't scientists...they were believers. The people having the most abortions these days aren't scientists or atheists...they're believers.

- Science doesn't claim the first people were meat eaters.

- "Evidence" of the first surgery helps medical science how exactly? You want men to perform the supposed actions of God?


You haven't pointed out a single way in which scientists can work in harmony with God. You're just randomly pointing out Biblical passages that can be interpreted, with a stretch, to agree with scientific facts.

[Humes]

The layered terrain is from the end of the Noachian period and maybe into early Hesperian period, more than 3 billion years ago.

bluefete, you're contradicting yourself yet again. The Bible's chronology states that the Great Flood took place a few thousand years ago.

The Noachian era was billions of years ago.


Unless you planning to bring Conan and Toth-Amon into this, I want to assume we not missing a few billion years of human civilization from historical and archaeological records. Or for your sake, from the Bible.

You're taking the Bible literally when it suits you, and symbolically when it suits you.

Carry on.

[Humes]

bluefete, what amazes me is the utter nonsense of your posts.
a young catholic priest in training at the regional seminary who reads this forum told me it is his opinion that you are making religious people look bad.
He said you have some terrible arguments and some of the worst use of scripture he has ever seen.

Funny thing is, I'm not an atheist.

But when I have discussions like these, with people like bluefete, I feel myself moving in that direction.

[Humes]

By the way, bluefete: Bring the evidence of the naval academy construction of Noah's Ark nah man. A link. A title of the report. News story...anything.

We waiting.

[bluefete]

yup definite proof im gonna go baptize sunday.












But in the mean while, adam and eve and let there be light and all that where that fits in exactly, especially considering Homo Habilis the first Homo (human) was about 2.5 million years ago vs. T.rex a relatively "young" dino species is over 65 million years old.

you proved your bible contradictions with your "proof" on pg21.
where did all that fit in with creating the world in 7 days adam and eve and the talking snake?

seriously jus admit its hard to accept you came from a monkey, shame your still thinking like one. jus look at he breakdown of human ancestory with skeletal proof.

keep running i shall keep quoting. So if adam and eve is nancy story and its in the bible.....? what does that tell you. funny how your logic works

and btw the water on mars is still there stop putting up half truths. The water is still there on mars. Educate your self child, i feel sorry for you.


http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002 ... arsice.htm


May 28, 2002: Using instruments on NASA's 2001 Mars Odyssey spacecraft, surprised scientists have found enormous quantities of buried treasure lying just under the surface of Mars -- enough water ice to fill Lake Michigan twice over. And that may be only the tip of the iceberg.

"This is really amazing," says William Boynton of the University of Arizona. "This is the best direct evidence we have of subsurface water ice on Mars." Indeed, he added, "what we have found is much more ice than we ever expected."

There you go supporting the Bible again.

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters, And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven" (Genesis 1:6-8)

Science has proved the Genesis account of water above the heaven.

Space exploration has revealed water in the far reaches of outer space. An even better example than Mars is Saturn's moon Enceladus which is literally spouting water ice into space.

[bluefete]

The layered terrain is from the end of the Noachian period and maybe into early Hesperian period, more than 3 billion years ago.

bluefete, you're contradicting yourself yet again. The Bible's chronology states that the Great Flood took place a few thousand years ago.

The Noachian era was billions of years ago.


Unless you planning to bring Conan and Toth-Amon into this, I want to assume we not missing a few billion years of human civilization from historical and archaeological records. Or for your sake, from the Bible.

You're taking the Bible literally when it suits you, and symbolically when it suits you.

Carry on.

Humes my friend - scientists & God count time differently. It is very possible for things to have happened over billions of years prior to a possible acceleration of events.

To understand this you have to go back to Genesis and one word that has me thinking even now.

"... and God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, and subdue it ..." (Genesis 1:28)

My dictionary states that replenish means to replace or put back. Something happened before Adam & Eve came along for God to give them that specific dictate.

Remember in the very beginning the earth existed but it "was without form, and void: and darkness was upon the face of the deep." This was a geologic period of great chaos.

So even when scientists talk about the Big bang, I would not discount that theory but they need to tell me what caused it.

But then I am not a scientist and one day the pieces will fall into place.

Please don't become an atheist on my account.

[bluefete]

When next you speak to him, please ask him about catholic tradition viz-a-viz the Bible and the role it plays in circumventing the Bible. Should make for an interesting discussion.

A more interesting discussion is the fact that this Bible you're discussing was selected and compiled by Catholic authorities.

That is why he needs to have that discussion. Maybe Duane should ask him why the Book of Enoch appears only in the Ethiopian Bible but is mentioned in the Book of Jude in the New Testament. And why are there so many different "versions' of the Bible with some putting in books and others leaving out books?

[bluefete]

^ please re-read what I wrote, neither the priest nor myself ever said the bible was nonsense. What YOU post is nonsense.

So you're saying people who study the Bible at the seminary are actually secretly against it?

BTW - John F. Mustard, the guy you quoted from on the study of the Martian surface - his life work is in Planetary Geology and he supports the theory of star and planet creation through the scientific process "viz-aviz" the big bang theory.

So you can't selectively quote only the things that make sense to you - that is pointless.

Okay Duane, calm down.

Did I say that you both said that? Please re-read and try to understand what I wrote.

To paraphrase, he said that I make religious people look bad and I was making very poor use of the Bible to rationalise my arguments.

Let me say it plainly because the priest would have access to more books on the Bible than I would -

Ask him about dogma & church traditions which contradict what the Bible teaches.

I like Mustard's work and again I state that it is quite possible for God to have used a big bang to start the process. The first two paragraphs of Genesis 1 may allude to this.

But the first existence of human beings by a method other than creation is what no one on this thread has been able to provide scientific proof for.

And please stop applying words that I did not use.

But you are free to continue to write that what I write is nonsense.

Tally Ho.

[bluefete]

Now I find you logicalists are really "brakesing". You keep telling me not to quote the Bible because it is not "proof". But you are unable to refute my arguments because God does not move like we do. I keep stressing that science validates God not the other way around and you refuse to see that.

bluefete, you are the only man who's been brakesing in this thread. Repeatedly, obviously, and dishonestly so.

Everytime your evidence is soundly refuted, or the flaws of your arguments are exposed, you refuse to acknowledge your mistakes and quickly veer to another angle. The closest thing you've done to admitting how wrong you are is saying stuff like, "I like your rationalizations"...as if the rationalizations are totally subjective and can co-exist alongside your flawed assertions.

The Bible is not proof because it contains unverifiable subjective information. You've promised to present evidence, but reliable evidence has to be verifiable and objective. That's a fundamental aspect of this discussion that you still haven't understood.

Repetition without evidence doesn't make an assertion the truth. And that's all you've been doing in this thread: Making claims, providing evidence that's been soundly refuted every time, refusing to acknowledge your errors, and repeating your claims.

And you will persist, because you look like the type of person who will claim "victory" after your opponents grow weary of your underhanded, incorrect debating techniques.

Suffer it to be so. People refuse to take what is written and prove it.

We ask God to prove himself to us. The natural world is just that. A world we are familiar with whose existence we can prove because we exist in it.

And we who inhabit the natural world have become so smart that we do not see the need for a Creator.

All events must be rationally explained, so God has allowed us over time to see the mechanics of how things work in the natural world. Gravity, space-time continuum, flora, fauna and so on all have a rational explanation for their existence and for how they work.

But there is also another dimension that we cannot see. And because we cannot see it does not mean that it does not exist. So it is with God.

[bluefete]

Let's see how scientists can work in Harmony with God.

...

bluefete, a few things:

- Science makes no statement on the morality of abortion. So I don't see what your point is in bring abortion into a debate about scientists. The first people who were having abortions and performing them weren't scientists...they were believers. The people having the most abortions these days aren't scientists or atheists...they're believers.

- Science doesn't claim the first people were meat eaters.

- "Evidence" of the first surgery helps medical science how exactly? You want men to perform the supposed actions of God?


You haven't pointed out a single way in which scientists can work in harmony with God. You're just randomly pointing out Biblical passages that can be interpreted, with a stretch, to agree with scientific facts.

Statistics please to back up your abortion point!!!!! Mind you, I do not necessarily disagree with you on this point, though.

The Biblical passages were written BEFORE science was able to verify them. THAT is the point that people are denying.

All science is doing is proving what was written.

[MG Man]

so, bluefete, u keep quoting the bible............does that make all other religions wrong?

hinduism?
bhuddism?
etc etc etc?

[bluefete]

^ No. Different societies have different beliefs.

But all religions have a common thread - One God. A study of Comparative Religion shows this.

Interpretation, however, kills all.

I always ask the question - If a person who has NEVER heard of Jesus Christ or heard about the Bible (and there are people like that even today) dies, what will be their position (other than being dead)?

MGMan - what do you think?

[ismedave]

Some points to note:

No. 1: If in fact one doesn't believe that the Bible is the inspired WORD of God, then it's pointless in trying to prove to them that God exists.

No. 2: If one doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God made manifest in the flesh to take away the sins of the world so that Man can be reconciled to their Creator, then he does not have God.

No.3: In the BEGINNING, there was ONE WAY OF LIFE! Man being in subjection to GOD! Man worshiping GOD! Clearly this notion has been manipulated to a great extent BY MAN. Man has become a corrupt element of Life so therefore it's now difficult for him to truly UNDERSTAND God. Religion is a man made 'way of life'. The book of Genesis (providing you believe that the bible is the inspired WORD of God) says that "In the beginning, God...." So in the beginning there was God. Whether or not one accepts that truth, it would always be the TRUTH! And we should leave it as that!

No. 4: Evolution as we speak exists but not from a spiritual perspective. Evolution literally has to do with the position that man was in, and where he is now. It has to do with the implications of how man has evolved. It can refer to research that has now been made known to man so that he could survive. We now have doctors etc. Man has evolved. BUT not from Monkeys!!!

No. 5: In all religion, there seems to exist some form of truth. Some form of God or superior being. The bible says that each man has to give account for his own life. One can only work out his salvation for himself, so it's a matter of CHOICE. Simply speaking, Heaven or Hell. There are things that God has never revealed unto man because it's not deemed necessary for his Salvation. And that is what matters! Man's Salvation. So man should only be concerned about where he's going after he leaves this earth, and nothing else that would easily corrupt his mind.

[slimshiney]

Sticking here to discuss in "details"...... could possibly steal too much time....Looking back at the comments (including mine) i've realized it will be a never ending discussion.....Amazing how topics like these seem to grasp the attention of the human race...

25 Pages
7000 plus views
All in less than two weeks


LOGIC AND FAITH - A Statement of Two Realities is good

The one that stands is the one which will last. We share our views and when understood properly neither is a contradiction...It's just a statement of two realities ONE SEEN, THE OTHER UNSEEN. Reality is, one of them will be to end.......Right?..we're living in a changing world and only time would tell....


FAITH
When one is at the point where doctors tried evrything they can..when professionals are human enough to admit there is no hope to the point of telling family to prepare for a funeral...Faith kicks in at that point. Because faith says to believe that a scripture say's that "I will not die but live".........say it till untill it becomes "material reality"


LOGIC
When all is done to keep or get rid of something it says to accept whatever happens. (Please correct me if i'm wrong)

Finally there are somethings logic can't explain in similar way there are some things faith cannot explain...cause it need not do such.....It is two elements that is somewhat interdependant on each other..although they are opposite...it's like A man needs a woman in his life and vice versa...but the thing is Man and Woman could hardly agree when coming to certain issues..yet we are interdependant on each other...

"Interdependence is and ought to be as much the ideal of man as self-sufficiency. Man is a social being."

"His social interdependence enables him to test his faith and to prove himself on the touchstone of reality."- Young India March 21, 1929, p. 93

[Logic42]

i'm interested to here bluefete's views on THIS

But the first existence of human beings by a method other than creation is what no one on this thread has been able to provide scientific proof for.

bump

[Razkal]

[3stagevtec]

It is still amazing to me how we have not mastered death.

bluefete, what amazes me is the utter nonsense of your posts.
a young catholic priest in training at the regional seminary who reads this forum told me it is his opinion that you are making religious people look bad.
He said you have some terrible arguments and some of the worst use of scripture he has ever seen.

[slimshiney]

...Let's say..if he's indeed the creator and he is omnipresent and omnipotent as it is claimed...umm...I don't tink he would choose to show it through a confined space.....he might need a work permit for that...which would have to be granted by humans...which i'm not sure he would get the approval ........However,if granted, he would be an advocate for freedom ....so now.. a second thought for that....

[Razkal]

^fine...tell god turn the cage to a zebra then..

[slimshiney]

^^ ....U can tell him u knw....well den we need to go Africa...

[Razkal]

^omg! god is black!?

is he morgan freeman??

[MG Man]

^ No. Different societies have different beliefs.

But all religions have a common thread - One God. A study of Comparative Religion shows this.

Interpretation, however, kills all.

I always ask the question - If a person who has NEVER heard of Jesus Christ or heard about the Bible (and there are people like that even today) dies, what will be their position (other than being dead)?

MGMan - what do you think?

bluey yuh wrong there eh......christianity does not share....neither does islam and most other religions...it's my way or the highway....or the sword......

[MG Man]

^fine...tell god turn the cage to a zebra then..

god is too busy creating wonderous gal;axies and nebulas to prove his magnificence

[Razkal]

^i always found the "crab nebula" to be hilarious....sounds like giant stellar pubic lice

[MG Man]

isn't that where the villain from Star Fleety came from? or was it G-force?

[illumin@ti]

bah humbug

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

There you go supporting the Bible again.

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters, And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven" (Genesis 1:6-8 )

Science has proved the Genesis account of water above the heaven.

Space exploration has revealed water in the far reaches of outer space. An even better example than Mars is Saturn's moon Enceladus which is literally spouting water ice into space.

If water on Mars and Encladeus is water above heaven and space is heaven where are he angels?

You are implying your own meaning to scripture.
You want to take exact meaning from your bible and loosely fit it around the irrefutable scientific data you are finding to make yourself feel comfortable.

To understand this you have to go back to Genesis and one word that has me thinking even now.

"... and God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, and subdue it ..." (Genesis 1:28 )

My dictionary states that replenish means to replace or put back. Something happened before Adam & Eve came along for God to give them that specific dictate.

the Bible was not written in english.
All the various versions are transliterations.
Therefore you cannot look at the use of "specific dictate" in an english bible and expect to find anything.

Again you are making up as you go along. Please stop putting your own deluded meaning to the Bible scripture - that is called blasphemy.

[MG Man]

i tort it was called being a tuntun

[bigga514]

^^^^ aye you could only bring a horse to the water yes, or in this case a delusional jackass.
i like how he nit picks what to answer, the man even discredits the bible when it suits him but still trying to quote from it. this child is not to be reasoned with, man even say all religions pray to one god lol

i guess the greeks (12) and the chinese (71) are screwed, along with the Aborigine (25) and the norse got too many to count, Hindus believe in many gods, but one supreme God as well. And bluefete god is a jealous god who say worship only him.

personal i respect the native idea of mother earth being "creator of life and our sustenance" but all religion is man made.
And most wars have been the result of religious beliefs.


im done bluefete go meet your maker and get enlightened .

[slimshiney]

Statements of two realities.