I need a water tank base built

[adnj]

^^ Nice.

As an aside, I am all for a gravity + pump system for those times that you lose power.

But you don't need your entire reserve capacity to be elevated. A small tank near roof level will still give you enough water pressure.

Funny joke.
90% of the time, this doesn't work, and 9% of the time it does it doesn't work well. Only in 1% of applications does it function properly.
Because most residential homes water lines are at largest 3/4" pipe, coming out of a 3/4" outlet and feeding into the 1 1/4 intake of the pump, and before that water reaches inside the it must first overcome the combined resistance of all the 90 degree turns in the system and most importantly the pumps impeller, as well as the reduced bore of angle valves that most people use to connect taps and toilets to their system.

Only way to get a totally power independent flow would be to first get the tank high enough to build sufficient pressure, then split the line at the tank outlet, and run one to the pump intake and then the other on the pump outlet with a check valve to stop the flow from entering the pump via the pump outlet. This way, your system will only have to overcome your 90 degree turns and reduced line bores, and once the base of the tank is above the highest outlet in the house you will get a pump free gravity fed supply from your reserve to the shower and every outlet below it.

I'm not certain why you would choose to build that way instead of connecting above the highest point on the water column.

I don't know if you are referencing a single tank or a multi tank setup.

If it's single, the pump should be next to the tank, teed tank outlet with check valves and tie-back with the pump outlet.

If it's multiple, gravity tank on the roof, inlet with float valve from the house pump outlet, tank outlet to water column with check valve.

Typically you should be able to expect a rooftop install to deliver about 11 to 15 psi with a flow rate of 5 gpm or 1/3rd of normal household flow at the ground floor.

[alfa]

^^ Nice.

As an aside, I am all for a gravity + pump system for those times that you lose power.

But you don't need your entire reserve capacity to be elevated. A small tank near roof level will still give you enough water pressure.

Funny joke.
90% of the time, this doesn't work, and 9% of the time it does it doesn't work well. Only in 1% of applications does it function properly.
Because most residential homes water lines are at largest 3/4" pipe, coming out of a 3/4" outlet and feeding into the 1 1/4 intake of the pump, and before that water reaches inside the it must first overcome the combined resistance of all the 90 degree turns in the system and most importantly the pumps impeller, as well as the reduced bore of angle valves that most people use to connect taps and toilets to their system.

Only way to get a totally power independent flow would be to first get the tank high enough to build sufficient pressure, then split the line at the tank outlet, and run one to the pump intake and then the other on the pump outlet with a check valve to stop the flow from entering the pump via the pump outlet. This way, your system will only have to overcome your 90 degree turns and reduced line bores, and once the base of the tank is above the highest outlet in the house you will get a pump free gravity fed supply from your reserve to the shower and every outlet below it.

The one issue I see with that is that the gravity flow will have to overcome the force of the check valve spring on the pump outlet side which it may not be able to do. Better to use a lock off valve and keep closed when not in use. What I did was simply run a bypass line from the suction to discharge side of the pump with said lock off valve in the middle

[pugboy]

i tried a similar bypass the the pump setup but it didn’t work because of the frictional issues listed.
prior to that i also tried the check valves which don’t use a spring but a brass flap and still nothing worthwhile.

[adnj]

^^ Nice.

As an aside, I am all for a gravity + pump system for those times that you lose power.

But you don't need your entire reserve capacity to be elevated. A small tank near roof level will still give you enough water pressure.

Funny joke.
90% of the time, this doesn't work, and 9% of the time it does it doesn't work well. Only in 1% of applications does it function properly.
Because most residential homes water lines are at largest 3/4" pipe, coming out of a 3/4" outlet and feeding into the 1 1/4 intake of the pump, and before that water reaches inside the it must first overcome the combined resistance of all the 90 degree turns in the system and most importantly the pumps impeller, as well as the reduced bore of angle valves that most people use to connect taps and toilets to their system.

Only way to get a totally power independent flow would be to first get the tank high enough to build sufficient pressure, then split the line at the tank outlet, and run one to the pump intake and then the other on the pump outlet with a check valve to stop the flow from entering the pump via the pump outlet. This way, your system will only have to overcome your 90 degree turns and reduced line bores, and once the base of the tank is above the highest outlet in the house you will get a pump free gravity fed supply from your reserve to the shower and every outlet below it.

The one issue I see with that is that the gravity flow will have to overcome the force of the check valve spring on the pump outlet side which it may not be able to do. Better to use a lock off valve and keep closed when not in use. What I did was simply run a bypass line from the suction to discharge side of the pump with said lock off valve in the middle

You gain some flow rate because you are using a ball valve. The valve does make the switch-over process manual though it will work every time. Static pressure is the same of course.

Some plumbers place check valves on the outlet side of a pump. I have seen some plumbers decide that two valves in series are required.

The best location for a check valve is on the suction side of a water pump. A single wafer disk check valve will slow water flow about the same as fifteen 90° elbows.

[Gladiator]

LOL ... Christopher, you asked for tank stand estimate but got enough information to study for a diploma in plumbing design.

Great discussion in here...

The best solution I think for a gravity feed for emergencies where both power and water gone is probably to build a tank stand for a small tank... Say 400gal. A good stand at about 15 ft that is just gravity fed into the main house line through a check valve.

You can still have your main tanks on the ground to work with your pump. When power goes or if you just lazy to turn on the pump the 400gal will give you enough water till wasa supply returns.

You can use your pump to jockey water to the high tank from the ground tank for filling if wasa pressure is not good enough to climb into the high tank.

I use this set up in some very large buildings where I have a small tank on the roof and the primary storage in a tank farm on the ground with a pump.

[ScHoolboySoloQ]

Gravity feed works when there is no electricity .
The base does not have to be high since you already have 1000 gallon pressure etc.

Someone ordered a jackass?

Dear King Toolumhead Jr.
A tank on level ground, no matter the volume, will not "Gravity feed" into a house. At best some water will get to the lowest tap, and when the water level in the tank reaches the level of that tap that's the end. Couple that with the fact that OP already has a pump, so it's just a matter of building a base and connecting the tank to the existing system.


Look some free advice.
Stick to what you good at, taking piggy in yuh bambam in lieu of paying rent & begging your landlord to not evict you.
Know yuh strengths, and stay in your lane.

You took the bait and gave him an erection

[maj. tom]

Here's the thing. People are creating threads because they need info. Valid info that will stand up in the years to come. When you Google a problem related to Trinidad, Trinituner comes up and all the wealth of information is documented by experience and people educated on the topic.

Here comes a troll RedVEVO, telling people all the wrong info. Over and over, in every single thread he does that. People looking for genuine help are only met by pages upon pages of this ignorant fucktard expounding his damaged psyche. And jeezus is this boy broken and abused and molested. It's quite frustrating to have to scroll through, sift through all this sheit to get the valid info. Oh he won because he's trolling? People fell for the bait? It's not even mildly amusing anymore. There are threads to do that. Not the ones where people require information. There is proper internet etiquette for communication in 2020; it's not 2003 when the internet now started. You see other people getting on like this clown'scunt? If you look at RedVEVO's post history, every single one of his posts is inaccurate and people have to stop the discussion and inform the readers that what he posted was wrong. There was a time when mods created a RedVEVO thread for him to play in because of the nonsense he does.

And after a while, after all this nonsense over and over, the people with the experience and education will shut down. Why bother to even post anything if it will be hijacked and then lauded by RedVEVO and his admirers? Why bother to type anything to help someone else? Then those people just sign off, the actual valuable contributors on Trinituner just stop. Over the years many, many stalwart old-time tuners with so much knowledge to share have done just that. They're gone, they just read sometimes and sigh at the usual dotish nonsense allowed. Why should they even bother to log on and type anything here?

Again, mods here seem to like this behaviour. More views, more data mining, more targeted ad hits, more revenue right?

[NR8]

Here's the thing. People are creating threads because they need info. Valid info that will stand up in the years to come. When you Google a problem related to Trinidad, Trinituner comes up and all the wealth of information is documented by experience and people educated on the topic.

Here comes a troll RedVEVO, telling people all the wrong info. Over and over, in every single thread he does that. People looking for genuine help are only met by pages upon pages of this ignorant fucktard expounding his damaged psyche. And jeezus is this boy broken and abused and molested. It's quite frustrating to have to scroll through, sift through all this sheit to get the valid info. Oh he won because he's trolling? People fell for the bait? It's not even mildly amusing anymore. There are threads to do that. Not the ones where people require information. There is proper internet etiquette for communication in 2020; it's not 2003 when the internet now started. You see other people getting on like this clown'scunt? If you look at RedVEVO's post history, every single one of his posts is inaccurate and people have to stop the discussion and inform the readers that what he posted was wrong. There was a time when mods created a RedVEVO thread for him to play in because of the nonsense he does.

And after a while, after all this nonsense over and over, the people with the experience and education will shut down. Why bother to even post anything if it will be hijacked and then lauded by RedVEVO and his admirers? Why bother to type anything to help someone else? Then those people just sign off, the actual valuable contributors on Trinituner just stop. Over the years many, many stalwart old-time tuners with so much knowledge to share have done just that. They're gone, they just read sometimes and sigh at the usual dotish nonsense allowed. Why should they even bother to log on and type anything here?

Again, mods here seem to like this behaviour. More views, more data mining, more targeted ad hits, more revenue right?

It bewildered me all along why nothing serious has been done to date but you might be on to something here.

[maj. tom]

Before people start about freedom of speech, you know RedVEVO has like 3 or 5 different accounts that he posts from right? And he makes sense in some of them, he talks like an actual person with a brain. So why the Joker personality on only 1 account created to harass users and deliberately corrupt and misconstrue the information that people are trying to give?

[linton]

Here's the thing. People are creating threads because they need info. Valid info that will stand up in the years to come. When you Google a problem related to Trinidad, Trinituner comes up and all the wealth of information is documented by experience and people educated on the topic.

Here comes a troll RedVEVO, telling people all the wrong info. Over and over, in every single thread he does that. People looking for genuine help are only met by pages upon pages of this ignorant fucktard expounding his damaged psyche. And jeezus is this boy broken and abused and molested. It's quite frustrating to have to scroll through, sift through all this sheit to get the valid info. Oh he won because he's trolling? People fell for the bait? It's not even mildly amusing anymore. There are threads to do that. Not the ones where people require information. There is proper internet etiquette for communication in 2020; it's not 2003 when the internet now started. You see other people getting on like this clown'scunt? If you look at RedVEVO's post history, every single one of his posts is inaccurate and people have to stop the discussion and inform the readers that what he posted was wrong. There was a time when mods created a RedVEVO thread for him to play in because of the nonsense he does.

And after a while, after all this nonsense over and over, the people with the experience and education will shut down. Why bother to even post anything if it will be hijacked and then lauded by RedVEVO and his admirers? Why bother to type anything to help someone else? Then those people just sign off, the actual valuable contributors on Trinituner just stop. Over the years many, many stalwart old-time tuners with so much knowledge to share have done just that. They're gone, they just read sometimes and sigh at the usual dotish nonsense allowed. Why should they even bother to log on and type anything here?

Again, mods here seem to like this behaviour. More views, more data mining, more targeted ad hits, more revenue right?

Maybe that's why 19000 views and only the same people answering him ( opposing ) over and over . It seems as nobody really wants to post in support of his views .

[linton]

Oh . Btw , I don't think he's trolling . I support your " damaged psyche " theory .

[linton]

Back to topic . I've seen some concrete tank stands with one concrete post . Does this work good ? I mean is it safe ?

Will the concrete on its base last as it's exposed to rain. I seen concrete floors crumble when left exposed with steel in it swollen and the concrete shelling out .

[88sins]

Back to topic . I've seen some concrete tank stands with one concrete post . Does this work good ? I mean is it safe ?

Will the concrete on its base last as it's exposed to rain. I seen concrete floors crumble when left exposed with steel in it swollen and the concrete shelling out .

more risk of them toppling over than the concrete crumbling. better to build with a proper foundation and corner columns, so it's much more stable & you could just wall it up & have a small storeroom below for pump, tools whatever.




a rough example of what I mentioned earlier.

[maj. tom]

Check this out: https://www.instructables.com/id/Cement-Water-Tower/

[88sins]

@ maj.tom
Decent build, but it doesn't have to be that tall.
As I mentioned earlier, the tank outlet need only be above the highest outlet point in the house, say 12" above your shower.

[adnj]

Back to topic . I've seen some concrete tank stands with one concrete post . Does this work good ? I mean is it safe ?

Will the concrete on its base last as it's exposed to rain. I seen concrete floors crumble when left exposed with steel in it swollen and the concrete shelling out .

more risk of them toppling over than the concrete crumbling. better to build with a proper foundation and corner columns, so it's much more stable & you could just wall it up & have a small storeroom below for pump, tools whatever.




a rough example of what I mentioned earlier.

pump.jpg

That is the standard design for a gravity+pump system. With the pump at ground level, running the gravity feed from the tank to the structure at the top of the structure's water column will give you a few additional pounds of pressure at the cost of an additional run of pipe. The feed to the pump stays the same.

Run the elevated tank outlet to the structure.
Add the split on the side of the structure.
Run from the split to the top of the water column.
Run from the split to the pump.

Running the split around the pump is not uncommon but it is suboptimal.

[88sins]

Only if you plan on turning your pump on and off as necessary. Doing it that way, pump switch can remain on unless you need it off.
Running water out from the top is what's known as a siphon system, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

[ScHoolboySoloQ]

Back to topic . I've seen some concrete tank stands with one concrete post . Does this work good ? I mean is it safe ?

Will the concrete on its base last as it's exposed to rain. I seen concrete floors crumble when left exposed with steel in it swollen and the concrete shelling out .

more risk of them toppling over than the concrete crumbling. better to build with a proper foundation and corner columns, so it's much more stable & you could just wall it up & have a small storeroom below for pump, tools whatever.




a rough example of what I mentioned earlier.
pump.jpg

I saw there are pumps with waterproof housing so you can put it next to the tank on the stand then just run everything to the house. If you use "gravity feed" from the tank then to the pump at different location wouldn't it starve the pump a bit and wear it out faster rather than just putting it next to the tank on the stand where it getting direct flow from the tank?

[adnj]

Only if you plan on turning your pump on and off as necessary. Doing it that way, pump switch can remain on unless you need it off.
Running water out from the top is what's known as a siphon system, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

The two systems use similar check valve installs. Perhaps I wasn't very clear. Both systems are set and forget unless there is a power outage. Your diagram is of a design that is ordinarily used for retrofit or when a simpler/easier installation is the objective.

With a top of column gravity connection (including the check valves), flow friction is reduced because the outlets, especially at the top of the structure, typically have a more direct pipe run with fewer fittings when compared to running to ground level and returning to the water column.

Top of column connections usually start to shine on structures of three floors or more where the water column pressure differential is about 15 psi. If it's a single floor, there won't be more than about a 2.5 psi advantage. That 2.5 psi isn't much, but it is usually noticeable if more than one outlet is open.

[adnj]

Back to topic . I've seen some concrete tank stands with one concrete post . Does this work good ? I mean is it safe ?

Will the concrete on its base last as it's exposed to rain. I seen concrete floors crumble when left exposed with steel in it swollen and the concrete shelling out .

more risk of them toppling over than the concrete crumbling. better to build with a proper foundation and corner columns, so it's much more stable & you could just wall it up & have a small storeroom below for pump, tools whatever.




a rough example of what I mentioned earlier.
pump.jpg

I saw there are pumps with waterproof housing so you can put it next to the tank on the stand then just run everything to the house. If you use "gravity feed" from the tank then to the pump at different location wouldn't it starve the pump a bit and wear it out faster rather than just putting it next to the tank on the stand where it getting direct flow from the tank?

For the most part, it won't be a problem either way because the size of PVC used for household plumbing keeps the flow rates to about 20 gpm.

When the flows and structure height increases, some calculations have to be done to address that type of problem.

[pugboy]

To protect the pump from running and burning on a dry tank you should also install a float switch inside the tank
When tank has water and the switch is floating it allows the pump to run
When dry and hanging it breaks the circuit and pump does not get power.

You will need to run wire from tank to pump to implement a float switch.

[eitech]

To protect the pump from running and burning on a dry tank you should also install a float switch inside the tank
When tank has water and the switch is floating it allows the pump to run
When dry and hanging it breaks the circuit and pump does not get power.

You will need to run wire from tank to pump to implement a float switch.

What happens if u have a restriction on the suction side of the pump? Check valve from tank lock up for example

[pugboy]

you have a problem then but check valves dont normally malfunction that way
if they lock up, they lockup open, eg crud jams and dont let it close

To protect the pump from running and burning on a dry tank you should also install a float switch inside the tank
When tank has water and the switch is floating it allows the pump to run
When dry and hanging it breaks the circuit and pump does not get power.

You will need to run wire from tank to pump to implement a float switch.

What happens if u have a restriction on the suction side of the pump? Check valve from tank lock up for example

[Gladiator]

Actually I have met quite a few that stick... Like they didn't open so long the rubber seize on the brass and it refuse to open. Mashup a couple pumps these seizing check valves...

you have a problem then but check valves dont normally malfunction that way
if they lock up, they lockup open, eg crud jams and dont let it close

To protect the pump from running and burning on a dry tank you should also install a float switch inside the tank
When tank has water and the switch is floating it allows the pump to run
When dry and hanging it breaks the circuit and pump does not get power.

You will need to run wire from tank to pump to implement a float switch.

What happens if u have a restriction on the suction side of the pump? Check valve from tank lock up for example

[pugboy]

there are some small float switches i’ve seen
was thinking of trying to rig one for such but haven’t gotten much thought on it.

that is the only advantage if a smarthead, they have a fault trip

[eitech]

there are some small float switches i’ve seen
was thinking of trying to rig one for such but haven’t gotten much thought on it.

that is the only advantage if a smarthead, they have a fault trip

I have an in tank float for low level but i was tinking bout closer to the pump now. Right now i checkin out an underload relay.

[pugboy]

the good ones not cheap because to detect dry running pump could be tricky depending on demand conditions

[eitech]

the good ones not cheap because to detect dry running pump could be tricky depending on demand conditions

Lol for real. A gould pump not cheap too

[pugboy]

i had an old pentax which had thermal cutoff which is a simple device.
current models don’t have that

i always wonder how come it is not standard

the good ones not cheap because to detect dry running pump could be tricky depending on demand conditions

Lol for real. A gould pump not cheap too

[wheelbarrow]

And after a while, after all this nonsense over and over, the people with the experience and education will shut down. Why bother to even post anything if it will be hijacked and then lauded by RedVEVO and his admirers? Why bother to type anything to help someone else? Then those people just sign off, the actual valuable contributors on Trinituner just stop. Over the years many, many stalwart old-time tuners with so much knowledge to share have done just that. They're gone, they just read sometimes and sigh at the usual dotish nonsense allowed. Why should they even bother to log on and type anything here?

I'm at this stage.