Where does this culture of entitlement come from?

[d spike]

The scapegoat claim, fine... I'll give you that, but you speak of knowing our history, when knowledge of the history of other caribbean nations, both their colonial history as well as basic formation of goverment and how it has affected their economic control is essential in critiquing and analyzing our predicament.

Yes, but while the history of our neighbours lets us appreciate the background of the West Indies in which we are set, it in no way takes the place of our own history. When you study our own history, you will see why it is left out deliberately. We are unique in many ways - many of these negate the ideas that were being pushed and paraded in the 70's, so to leave them out and then quote situations in other islands assisted that point of view... so as far as this next point is concerned:

Well, my early education was in TnT so I guess I was also affected by the great cover-up while schooling in the 80's

Yes, you were. (I hope you have since taken steps to remedy such inflicted ignorance. )

Concerning Dr. Williams, the man was largely intelligent, very well educated and honestly, yes, could sway the people. His influence is much more recent than colonial times, but he was only around for 30 years and his vision has been bastardized to some degree, but either way, he affected goverment for the most part, which takes time to influence society's level of education and less so, culture. Culture change is quite difficult, particularly when you have 300+ years of it shaping society. You simply cannot ignore hundreds of years of history because of the last 50 years of change.

Let me respond by first quoting someone whose view you should have some respect for:

Not but 100 years ago, the multiple transitions of power occurring in very short spaces of time, even at the municipal level, helped shape how we perceive government.

It is unfortunate that once you say "politics" in Trinidad, people automatically think "political party" (we have ol' Eric to thank for that, too) and so to cut a long story short:

If so, you would be using the PNM as a scapegoat.

Whom de cap fits, let dem wear it...
Seriously, it would be wrong to blame a party for this problem, as it can be seen to be the machination of one man, who was able to guide the thinking of the bulk of the voting population.

I think you need to take a look at the history of our country before you make broad statements like this. Focus specifically at the years between the 1880's and 1962...

A study of this era will show what I am speaking of. To disregard this point would disallow any further discussion on this particular point - which was not the aim I had in mind when I started this thread.

the Spanish DID completely fudge this country . They did not build anything near proper infrastructure....they built a port and roads to the port and the entire purpose of that was to drain resources out of the country as quickly as possible... just as they have done with just about every other Spanish colony. At least the british and french influence added something of significance to our goverment and culture. Look at South America and any other former Spanish colony... they are a wreck !

While I agree that the Spanish didn't build infrastructure, is it fair to blame them for our problems? How much money did they have to invest? Were they aware of the problems facing the citizens? How were those problems addressed in those times by others facing similar situations? What about us, then? Compare our resources, our knowledge and technological advancement... what have we done with what we have?

I know an old guy who spends his spare time blaming his grandfather for selling an old estate for a couple shillings - this land is now worth more than millions. That was the value of the land then! The old fellah was thirsty, and his pocket was empty... so what if ex-pats build gold-plated mausoleums there now? How is it your grandpops' fault that you are somewhat impoverished? Do like the old man did, buy a scrap of property, lift your arse off the ground and sweat a bit... Eric taught allyuh well...

The focus of this thread was supposed to be on the development of the 'dependency syndrome' - which didn't exist in the time I referred to you for your benefit.

As far as "the hidden history of our country", books based on writings (NOT assumptions) made back then have since been in print. Read 'em.

Cheers

[AbstractPoetic]

An interesting way to look at it is this, in 1997, while doing my degree, I had to do some research on squatting. More than 90% of squatters at the time were located in and around the Port of Spain area. The opportunity for handouts and a "hustle" is too great a draw for someone who is truly desperate to build a shack and plant some vegetables in the countryside somewhere.

I guess this, fueled by the handout culture of the Government gave rise to the dependency syndrome.

It certainly has. Trinidad and Tobago definitely has a welfare system in place.

I also strongly believe that it is up to parents to instill values, mine did, and they stuck with me. That broken home thing is rubbish as well. I am a child of divorced parents, women have an incredible capacity to surmount impossible situations, and for a woman to say they are a single parent is a cop out as far as I can see.

Interesting that you would reference a woman taken on that role in a single-parent household. While I agree with you to some extent, the single parent household of today is often not a result of choice but circumstance. Many more couples are copulating outside of marriage and less men are stepping up to the plate in claiming that responsibility leaving the woman no choice but to raise her child on her own.

I'm assuming you at least had the opportunity to know your father. Many children in this day and age do not.

[MG Man]

takes two tuh make ah child eh AP..............and many of those who copulate out of wedlock and make a child and then suffer end up repeating that mistake six and seven times..........sorry eh but man wid loose piggy not 100% guilty in them cases

[AbstractPoetic]

It is really disheartening to see this attitude in trini sociaty.

parent have alot to do with it. there are certain things I remember my parents doing that as a kid, you didn't understand, but you get it when you have your own.

And I think it is every parents goal to improve the lifestyle of the next generation, i had the education my parents didn;t have, and my kids enjoying a lifestyle I could have only dreamed of. Dem does go to de fridge and pull out orchard juice and drink like a it going out ah style, i used to be glad to get one when we go out!

When I was about 12 and want nice sneakers, me father got my brother and I a job sweeping HiLo St Anns Car-park for $40 dollars a week, we used to get dressed for school, go sweep and then go to school it used to take us ten minutes top. When we saved up enough, my father meet us half way.
It was hard yes, but come September i rocking meh Travel Fox strong! and I really appreciated it, that is when man used to get licks for mashing meh shoes, he don't know how hard i wuk for that!

And even simpler thing is my father being home, i mean after work, he came home and stayed at home, so I have a tendency to do the same, once my family is home, I think they deserve me being there.

I worry that my kids will have this entitlement attitude because they get everything they want, so my wife and I try to tie it to certain goals, like doing good in school and so on.
And it is already drilled in their heads that they doing some form of tertiry education, my daughter is 9 but has plan of going UWI already.

Thanks for sharing your story. Your father sounds like a great role model. I love the sneakers story.

[X2]

While I agree that the Spanish didn't build infrastructure, is it fair to blame them for our problems? How much money did they have to invest? Were they aware of the problems facing the citizens? How were those problems addressed in those times by others facing similar situations? What about us, then? Compare our resources, our knowledge and technological advancement... what have we done with what we have?

Like I said, you can easily read histories of other islands. But the children shall pay for the sins of the parent. Casting blame should not mean you hold a grudge and not advance yourself.

If you want to discuss entitlement culture, you honestly shouldn't just dismiss the possibilities other than your views eh. One point of view is not absolute.
But I look forward to seeing what the real cause is...

[AbstractPoetic]

takes two tuh make ah child eh AP..............and many of those who copulate out of wedlock and make a child and then suffer end up repeating that mistake six and seven times..........sorry eh but man wid loose piggy not 100% guilty in them cases

I won't fault you there MG, you do have a point, not that I was placing 100 percent on any one party, male or female.

But let's be honest here, is there anything in place in TT to curtail the dead-beat dad syndrome? Is there anything in place to hold him responsible for his actions? Is free DNA testing an option? What about an efficient judicial system that enforces child support orders? Does TT even have a division responsible for such?

There is nothing in place to help ensure a man steps up to his responsibility. He can simply state he is not the father and go his merry way. What's to stop him if he isn't willing to comply in getting DNA results let alone begin paying child support.

At the end of the day, men need to start stepping up to their responsibilities and women need to do a better job at screening potential baby daddies.

[MG Man]

AP, a lot of those dads not dead-beat eh...............they just fcuking irresponsible....no accountability...........in some sub societies, it is encouraged....brush ting, make chirren, more ranks among de boys

[d spike]

Like I said, you can easily read histories of other islands.
?????? And what of it, lad? The revolts in Jamaica, the harshness of slavery in Haiti, the starvation in the Bahamas... a lot of it isn't directly relevant to our history. Like I said, study our history before making broad statements.

But the children shall pay for the sins of the parent. Casting blame should not mean you hold a grudge and not advance yourself.
I quite agree. The problem lay in 'scapegoating', rather than in holding a grudge - although I dare say the gentleman that I mentioned did make holding a grudge into a fine art.

If you want to discuss entitlement culture, you honestly shouldn't just dismiss the possibilities other than your views eh. One point of view is not absolute.
I agree with this, and I appreciate your input. However, if you take the time to peruse the era in our history that I mentioned earlier, you will realise why I think the suggestion of "colonial treatment in Trinidad causing such a problem" is wrong.

But I look forward to seeing what the real cause is...

The 'dependency syndrome' did not exist here until after the early '60s. If colonialism had caused it, it would have been apparent earlier, not so? Unless your argument applies only to the late colonial period, of course.

[NOMOSS]

A 22 something year old asked me if I knew where he could get a job,I asked him if he wanted to work or if he just wanted the paycheck ?I still waithin for the answer

[NOMOSS]

You know you are a looser when you start blaming others for your failures

[d spike]

A 22 something year old asked me if I knew where he could get a job,I asked him if he wanted to work or if he just wanted the paycheck ?I still waithin for the answer

Well, I suspect you already know the answer.
It is a pity that some follow the ideas imposed on them and thus blame the "absentee parent/former colonial power" for their problems.

Williams' blaming Spain for our then lack of infrastructure is really silly, when one considers that at the time, Trinidad was populated by a handful of Europeans and the Amerindians - a small group that nowhere near required the type of infrastructure he alluded to... or even had the capability/manpower to build it.

An entitlement of hand-outs is a sad concept that developed much closer to our time.
The question is: how do we rid ourselves of this foolish and debilitating belief?

[r3iXmann]

You know you are a looser when you start blaming others for your failures

or start misspelling 'loser'

#mansjustsayin

[RIPEBREDFRUIT]

yes indeed, and what particular ethnic group in trinidad do you think has embraced this culture of entitlement attitude the most, i would tell you, but I run the risk of being labeled a racist.

thats the appraent way it is here, you tell the truth and you get flamed for it.

this way of thinking stems from way back when "islanders" were brought in to trinidad and PROMISED land and citizenship in exchange for voter padding, and thus that culture started.......................

[toyota2nr]

Good thread spike.

My answer would be one word: PNM.

Not trying to scapegoat any one person or group but Eric and the PNM really messed up T&T. This started decades ago but really took hold after we gained independence in '62. I really don't think we should blame the colonials and slavery. At the time of independence the people yearned for self rule and Eric saw that and used it to his and his group's advantage.

This was no more prominent than the importation of thousands of Grenadians, Jamaicans and other small islanders. These people were promised houses, jobs and myriad other 'freeness' as long as they voted the PNM and kept them in power. They now believed that they were entitled to state resources in exchange for keeping the gov't in office and as such their children and grandchildren continue that attitude. This is nothing more than a spoil child attitude, give me whatever I want otherwise I will mash up the place and create disorder. It has always been rumoured that when Morris Marshall died in his pocket was the light bill of a number of Laventille residents that he was on his way to pay.

If anything these people should blame the PNM for having and keeping them in this way.

[Country_Bookie]

As far as "the hidden history of our country", books based on writings (NOT assumptions) made back then have since been in print. Read 'em.

Cheers

Give me a name or an author of one of these books that would be ur recommended reading on this subject. It would make it easier to find rather than poring thru all those shelves at the library.


Not that I'm asking for a handout or anything

[RIPEBREDFRUIT]

Good thread spike.

My answer would be one word: PNM.

Not trying to scapegoat any one person or group but Eric and the PNM really messed up T&T. This started decades ago but really took hold after we gained independence in '62. I really don't think we should blame the colonials and slavery. At the time of independence the people yearned for self rule and Eric saw that and used it to his and his group's advantage.

This was no more prominent than the importation of thousands of Grenadians, Jamaicans and other small islanders. These people were promised houses, jobs and myriad other 'freeness' as long as they voted the PNM and kept them in power. They now believed that they were entitled to state resources in exchange for keeping the gov't in office and as such their children and grandchildren continue that attitude. This is nothing more than a spoil child attitude, give me whatever I want otherwise I will mash up the place and create disorder. It has always been rumoured that when Morris Marshall died in his pocket was the light bill of a number of Laventille residents that he was on his way to pay.

If anything these people should blame the PNM for having and keeping them in this way.

Thank you for expanding on what i meant in my post just before yours, i however, really did not want to turn this into a political war.
but thank you again.

[Bareback]

As far as "the hidden history of our country", books based on writings (NOT assumptions) made back then have since been in print. Read 'em.

Cheers

Give me a name or an author of one of these books that would be ur recommended reading on this subject. It would make it easier to find rather than poring thru all those shelves at the library.


Not that I'm asking for a handout or anything

Yes please list as many titles as you can. I have recently been told that many people, whites, indians, chinese, blacks have been writing about the history of the country from their perspective and from what I have been hearing it is very interesting. So if you have any titles you can pass on it would be greatly appreciated.

Would much prefer my child learns the history of T&T than the history of the freakin Egyptians!!!!!!

[Sky]

But let's be honest here, is there anything in place in TT to curtail the dead-beat dad syndrome?

Yes, it's called closed legs. And that goes for both sexes.

[silver]

I find it curious that Entitlement culture is only associated with social welfare programs, individuals in depressed areas and the general drains on society (a.k.a the trinituner beethamite syndrome) and while true to some extent I think it is probably closer to dependency syndrome (cause and effect really - dependency causes entitlement) I also assert that some forms of theft as belonging to this group suffering from entitlement culture, hell most of the corruption in this country is as a result of the entitlement culture. When questioned, many thieves (white collar and blue collar) justify their crimes by stating "dem cud afford it" or "nobody wuddn't miss that $5million"

entitlement whether real or imagined is simply a rationalization used to justify actions or state of mind. Because of the chasm that separates the have and have-nots in this country and also the wider Caribbean, governments have sought to implement austerity measures to maintain the social balance (without which, believe you me there would be riots in the streets). Of course that did not prevent them from leveraging these measures for their own political benefits.

Just look at the recent riots in England. Isn't that just a massive case of entitlement? There are generations of families that have never worked a day in their life. Simply living off the Dole.

[Strauss]

X2,Duane 3NE 2NR, thanks for restoring my hope that common sense is still alive

[crazybalhead]

Good thread spike.

My answer would be one word: PNM.

Not trying to scapegoat any one person or group but Eric and the PNM really messed up T&T. This started decades ago but really took hold after we gained independence in '62. I really don't think we should blame the colonials and slavery. At the time of independence the people yearned for self rule and Eric saw that and used it to his and his group's advantage.

This was no more prominent than the importation of thousands of Grenadians, Jamaicans and other small islanders. These people were promised houses, jobs and myriad other 'freeness' as long as they voted the PNM and kept them in power. They now believed that they were entitled to state resources in exchange for keeping the gov't in office and as such their children and grandchildren continue that attitude. This is nothing more than a spoil child attitude, give me whatever I want otherwise I will mash up the place and create disorder. It has always been rumoured that when Morris Marshall died in his pocket was the light bill of a number of Laventille residents that he was on his way to pay.

If anything these people should blame the PNM for having and keeping them in this way.

Interesting.

[SR]

^^^ makes a good point

listen to the accents of those who looking for handouts................

[hydroep]

Panday: Trinidadians living on dependency syndrome
Former PM responds to Rowley’s statement on Africans
Carol Matroo

Too many people are living on a dependency syndrome created by the PNM.

Former prime minister Basdeo Panday said if we are going to solve the problems in this country we have got to be honest with ourselves and first ask the origins of the problem.

“How did the problem begin? What created this problem?”

Panday was responding to the Prime Minister’s statement that Afro-Trinidadians were not doing as well as expected or as well as they might. During an Emancipation Day celebration he hosted at the Diplomatic Centre in St Ann’s on Saturday, Dr Keith Rowley said there might be some connection to the high level of crime in the country, and also why some people refused to address the root problems of crime 15 years ago.

“If Mr Rowley is honest with himself he’ll come to the conclusion that what is happening is a result of the PNM’s creation of a dependency syndrome in which Trinidadians lived on, well, some of them. Now that there is no money to satisfy it, the people who are involved in this syndrome have no skills, they are not trained, they have no work ethic, so how are they going to live without the syndrome.

“What Dr Rowley ought to do is to really, honestly ask how did Laventille come into being. How did Sealots come into being? When he gets the answer to that he will know how to solve the problems in the country.”

Chairman of the Emancipation Support Committee Khafra Kambon said while he was happy that the PM was addressing an issue of things that were specifically affecting the African community, he said Rowley had to find ways to tackle it.

“One of the reflections of those is the levels of crime which we see in predominantly African communities. Once that is seen as an issue, it means that we have to find ways in which we’re going to tackle it. We have to analyse the sources correctly.

“I know he is in error, and this is where politics comes into the analysis. He mentioned something about it having its genesis 15 years ago. I don’t know if statistically we’d seen any measure of that. That is more of a political than analytical statement. We should move beyond that.

“Different parties could have different approaches that could have negative impact, but I don’t think that is fundamental to the issue and we should avoid making that fundamental to the issue. Specific things could be said, but it must not look as though that is the turning point.”

Kambon said once there was an unaddressed problem with roots as deep as the crime that was being seen in predominantly African communities then aggravating factors could be looked at but those could not be considered root causes.

“I know you can’t have root cause 15 years ago because because the problem was generated before and it was a continuing downward spiral. We are still seeing that downward spiral is continuing. We have to recognise the various sources of the crisis that we are faced with.

“You do have historical roots for it and different groups that came into this society that had vastly different experiences based on the way they have been incorporated into the society, and the group that had the roughest ride was the Africans. Many of the traumas were created by enslavement and they have not been addressed.”

Kambon said as the country developed a middle class, and while Africans had a consciousness of their blackness, they were culturally very drawn into the European sphere.

He said it eventually created an alienation between those who were very successful and those who remained poor and struggling to develop.

He said over time that too had its impact on class separation and the way it became institutionalised, leading to official neglect of communities of the poor and, therefore, marginalising them more. He added that most times there had been intervention from a political level as though dealing with bad children as opposed to equal human beings.

“If we don’t analyse it properly then we are not going to address it properly because things build on each other. It is a developmental issue that has to be tackled. It is remarkable that we are not seeing any kind of action addressing the area where those high in society are the main beneficiaries from crime at the street level.

“So we have further deterioration in our communities taking place because children now are born into so much violence that we are in danger of developing a really serious culture of crime. A young man growing up in a community of violence wants to emulate the persons who pervade the violence.”

General secretary of the Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha Sat Maharaj said he was unable to say if Afro-Trinidadians were not doing well.

“He (Rowley) will have the data and he will know. I think he was talking in the context of the African liberation day coming up. I could talk on behalf of the Hindu community because I am following them, but I can’t do a comparison, I don’t know, I couldn’t compare. I don’t know what they are doing in professions and in business.”

https://newsday.co.tt/2019/07/31/panday-trinidadians-living-on-dependency-syndrome/

[VexXx Dogg]

Panday talking sense, but they also propagated that nonsense each time in office.
So it's a matter of living in a glass neighbourhood with a pile of boulders to pelt

[pugboy]

Kambon take 10 paragraph to say what could be said in 1

[Blaze d Chalice]

General secretary of the Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha Sat Maharaj said he was unable to say if Afro-Trinidadians were not doing well.

Like alyuh ban the man here and in real life too.

“What Dr Rowley ought to do is to really, honestly ask how did Laventille come into being. How did Sealots come into being? When he gets the answer to that he will know how to solve the problems in the country.”

Who cares?
They already in too deep.
Water more than flour.

Either clean out the pests and work from there, or move out the 'good people' and let it become a 100% certified pest factory and then seal it off from the rest of the public and give them they own country or something.

[Rovin]

panday talking some sense there but if u not african & u say anything about african : ppl does be quick to pelt out d race card

what panday saying also applies to indian ppl too eh , d indian political reps in "indian areas" does have them hanging on like some ass too


i like how they try to chain up SAT to make some kinda controversial statement but d ole man eh so dotish , he gave a rel good diplomatic answer .......

[Blaze d Chalice]

Yes it have parts of Penal/Barrackpore that didn't even get touch during 'their' time.

But Sat don't need to say anything.
Closer to election they will just rehash that Tobago statement and say that was his response.

[timelapse]

one popular one comes to mind "why the (expletive) gov't doh build we a race track?".

As if it is the duty of the gov't to provide you with recreation.
And to make it worst they then go on to break the law as a ransom.
"eh heh!? they doh want to build we no track?!? Watch we go race on the road!"

As asked in the post's topic, this culture of entitlement, where did it come from? I have my own ideas, but they have always been labeled as "racist"

the state of being dotish is not confined to any one race.

Funny how this doesn't apply to cyclists that want free reign on the highway...

[De Dragon]

“I know he is in error, and this is where politics comes into the analysis. He mentioned something about it having its genesis 15 years ago. I don’t know if statistically we’d seen any measure of that. That is more of a political than analytical statement. We should move beyond that.
Surprised that JUHN Scarfy didn't blame Kamla for it
Then again, all he did was pick his second favourite target, the one he sat with for decades before realizing that he was "corrupt" and inept, when it was actually when his, too black for PM arse was going to be fired.