*R.I.P DC2

[r3iXmann]

ok Bub. I just dont see a man of Cleriq's ilk saying something like that. But statement retracted.

nah..he was being kinda serious..he explained to me (and showed me a vid) of the rear end of these cars suddenly 'stepping out' under certain conditions...was kinda frightening

[honda hoe]

i can tell u these cars oversteer easily

[RichieRich]

it for sale?






















what???

[Damien]

good wood

[halfdef]

say it aint so

[JJ16]

wdf he hit!?! i hope d fella arite though cause that looking REALLL bad!

[legoRB]

WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY SAAAHHHHHHHH....

[bluesteel29]

dam homie.....anyone have the story?

[B20VTEK]

i see the car by besson st police station

[X2]

HoLy CrAp !

Is the driver ok ?

[Clerique]

Ok lemme clear up my 'dangerous' statement:

The car is lighter, faster, more rigid and nimble than most hondas (well civics) and has a strong tendency to oversteer when you let off the gas. Being a Honda, it feels best at high rpm and that equates to higher driving speeds.

Someone not accustomed to those kinda of characteristics will get into an accident easily.

When I met Lerbz saturday, he told me it was his 1st time driving the car and he said he was going to wash it and park it back up.

Ah damn shame!

BTW

ok Bub. I just dont see a man of Cleriq's ilk saying something like that. But statement retracted.

nah..he was being kinda serious..he explained to me (and showed me a vid) of the rear end of these cars suddenly 'stepping out' under certain conditions...was kinda frightening

This vid...?
Skip to 4:40 for the fun stuff
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Hd03HYt9V6I&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

This happened to me twice in dex and once on a public road. Luckily nothing happened.

[speedfreak44]

i in tears
hope lerbz ok

[outcasttnt]

I hope the driver makes a full recovery

[Monk BANzai]

Clriq....i noticed that with the Dc5's as well..when i took both Brent's cars out (one at dex and the other on Maracas) and in both instances, i had to fight that same efffect that you demostrated. In the Dex event i spun out. Found that to be un-nerving for a car of that weight to want to spin out lin that fashion.

Any reaseon for this?

[eurotuner]

Wheeeeyyyyyy! SHiet! bes he did stick wid d clio! homiez tek u time

[X2]

Clriq....i noticed that with the Dc5's as well..when i took both Brent's cars out (one at dex and the other on Maracas) and in both instances, i had to fight that same efffect that you demostrated. In the Dex event i spun out. Found that to be un-nerving for a car of that weight to want to spin out lin that fashion.

Any reaseon for this?

This is my $0.02 from having an integra for a few years...

The large rear sway bar makes the car react like a rwd car.. except without the rwd traction, so without a comfortable knowledge of how the integra reacts to sharp turns... you can spin it out. On a track you can get a solid 4 wheel drift when you push the car. The ITR version has an even larger rear sway than the standard DC2, plus rear stiffner bars in the chassis... none of this is available in the civic since the chassis is not as stiff and often has a smaller rear sway (or none at all).

THe chassis honestly is a handling marvel... it's up to the driver to understand the limits of their talent.



Hope the driver has a full recovery.

[eliteauto]

X2, is correct, the larger rear sway bar is the reason for the rear stepping out when cornering, especially if you come off the gas going into the corner, it causes weight transfer to the front and the back steps out, I experienced this with my car when I went from the stock 16mm bar to the TRD 20mm bar

[Monk BANzai]

Clriq....i noticed that with the Dc5's as well..when i took both Brent's cars out (one at dex and the other on Maracas) and in both instances, i had to fight that same efffect that you demostrated. In the Dex event i spun out. Found that to be un-nerving for a car of that weight to want to spin out lin that fashion.

Any reaseon for this?

This is my $0.02 from having an integra for a few years...

The large rear sway bar makes the car react like a rwd car.. except without the rwd traction, so without a comfortable knowledge of how the integra reacts to sharp turns... you can spin it out. On a track you can get a solid 4 wheel drift when you push the car. The ITR version has an even larger rear sway than the standard DC2, plus rear stiffner bars in the chassis... none of this is available in the civic since the chassis is not as stiff and often has a smaller rear sway (or none at all).

THe chassis honestly is a handling marvel... it's up to the driver to understand the limits of their talent.



Hope the driver has a full recovery.

ok...soooo....why not do like the Rover Chassis and make the weight distribution a bit better for "coming offthe gas" in corners bit?....i guess to each car brand the application of the chassis design is different. I used my only FWD knowledge (Which was the rover) when entering the corner and i got suprising results....with Hoe's car, i had to blip the throttle to maintain the current direction as the back was coming around (and its so bloddy quick!!!)....with B-TorF's.....i had no time to blip, i was already on the handbrake to get the back out and it snapped like WHOA!!...

Even in Brett's car, while i wanted to get the car to spin out.i had to reverse my application of what i do to get the Rover back to step out....which was come off the gas Completely mid corner and upset the momentum....with the Rover, you push the car hard into the corner, "blip" a bit and then upset momentum....much less effort...

While i respect the developemnt of the chassis from the DC2 to 5....that makes driving the car more "energetic"...Euro design FTW we!!!

But we digress....judging from the damage, that looks like a full frontal impact due to misjudging of stopping distance, or not taking the proper line through a corner and not enough time to correct. Didnt anyone take Lerb's on a test run with him in the car?

I had to do that with Advil quite recently..i mean...we lime together, so when i see a bad driving technique..you correct with out being "condscending". Sometimes 10mins describing proper driving stance and position relative to steering and pedal position can mean a world of differnence when you get into a sticky situation.

Wheh the CARS gurus?....input?

[eliteauto]

^^to ask for that input here is to prompt speculation as to the circumstances of the accident, and that's sure to result in the downward spiral of this thread, car mashup.... it could fix?....hope the man recovers FIN

[Monk BANzai]

^^to ask for that input here is to prompt speculation as to the circumstances of the accident, and that's sure to result in the downward spiral of this thread, car mashup.... it could fix?....hope the man recovers FIN

nah....it may require a different thread to talk about it...but im sure the Honda guys (Cleriq, SR et al) may be able to provide real time input as to how to recover your brand specific cars without having to go to a Dex session.

Lerb's accident, while unfortunate, steps up the need for us to discuss stuff like this...and i not talking bout teh gunho guys in the respective genres..i talking bout pure and simple sense driving technique that we can talk about...coupled with car setup and driving delivery.

As much as we joke and kid about Hoe's "flippage" im sure our of that, he can come here and say "Well fellas, i'd set up my car X,Y or Z differently"....

buh thais just me....when we did the road test of Redsupra's car this AM, we made reccomendations...stuff that even he didnt realize... thats what i talking bout. To live to see another day.

[eliteauto]

Redsupra is a different kinda car owner pal, his level is different, too many egos around for that...

[Clerique]

When Lerbz tell me he was just going to wash and park back up I didn't bother to give him any lecturers about the car since he won't be driving it anyway.
The person I went with to check out the car, I gave them a brief explanation of the natural proclivites of the car, what to expect and how to control it with throttle and braking.

The officer told me he ran into a wall, but I didn't ask where. Could be a simple situation of driving too fast and hitting the brakes and understeering right into the wall, over estimating the handling. More info is needed I guess.

The funny thing is, I tell a partner "somebody ask me to come check out the ITR for sale with them", so mih partner call me in the morning and say "Tell yuh pal who buying the car to take it easy, make sure he not reckless cause ah doh want to see the car wrap rong a lamp post in a few weeks"

Never expected that to happen before the sale was finalized.

[mitsu]

The car has been parked up for some years and the prospective owner; when taking the car for a test run, did inform Lerbz that the brushings and tires are dry rot even the brake pads were worn!

The sale was almost final as he was awaiting the documents to finalize it.

[X2]

ok...soooo....why not do like the Rover Chassis and make the weight distribution a bit better for "coming offthe gas" in corners bit?....i guess to each car brand the application of the chassis design is different. I used my only FWD knowledge (Which was the rover) when entering the corner and i got suprising results....with Hoe's car, i had to blip the throttle to maintain the current direction as the back was coming around (and its so bloddy quick!!!)....with B-TorF's.....i had no time to blip, i was already on the handbrake to get the back out and it snapped like WHOA!!...

Oh boy... this one is going to boost up some egos....The ITR is a fine line of 'perfection in fwd engineering'. Every part of the car is meant to compliment another. Honda took the DC5 a little further by utilizing the unibody/tub chassis, which stiffened the ITR even more than the DC2R, which, during it's production was considered the best FWD platform ever... a title now held by the DC5. But back to my statement of the car is built to compliment itself. Go hot into a corner and (unlike most other FWD setups) the answer for the ITR is:

1) Know HOW HOT to come in
2) Understand the dynamic response of the car

Staying on the throttle can save the car. It's a combination of the suspension design and how it's reacting to the power delivery and LSD. Coming off the gas too early (in an attempt to induce oversteer) will upset the pre-load on the suspension and send the rear out... try to correct without throttle modulation and get you end up whipping the tail around (as you can see in Cleriq's vid). Even with judicious throttle, it would still be easy to lose control once you upset the suspension because the weight transfer and momentum are already setup to act like a slingshot.

Some of this can be overcome by dialing in a bit more negative camber in the rear than it comes with stock (on a DC2), but that will promote tire wear on a street car. True enthusiasts that pay attention to the very precise balance of the ITR will realize that you can easily go from perfect to crap by making an un-informed or badly calculated change.... engine, suspension, chassis, steering... You need to consider everything when you make an adjustment on an R.

[SUPAstarr]

^^to ask for that input here is to prompt speculation as to the circumstances of the accident, and that's sure to result in the downward spiral of this thread, car mashup.... it could fix?....hope the man recovers FIN

nah....it may require a different thread to talk about it...but im sure the Honda guys (Cleriq, SR et al) may be able to provide real time input as to how to recover your brand specific cars without having to go to a Dex session.

Lerb's accident, while unfortunate, steps up the need for us to discuss stuff like this...and i not talking bout teh gunho guys in the respective genres..i talking bout pure and simple sense driving technique that we can talk about...coupled with car setup and driving delivery.

As much as we joke and kid about Hoe's "flippage" im sure our of that, he can come here and say "Well fellas, i'd set up my car X,Y or Z differently"....

buh thais just me....when we did the road test of Redsupra's car this AM, we made reccomendations...stuff that even he didnt realize... thats what i talking bout. To live to see another day.

i wish we cud really hav a thread like this it wud be so beneficial to so many, an hopefully not degenerate into stupid bickering, in my case i wud like experienced owners to tell me about my hacth, cuz as me an a wasa van figure out some years ago is that it does real understeer, an the back comes out under very hard braking, also at speed steerin input is super sensitive but can corner very very very well. But again askin for that kinda info here is no use cuz thread will get lock an mumford b4 page 3, bess i kidnap some of you older guys an force you to drive my car all tell me about it

[crazybalhead]

SUPA Starr, all true! That trail braking comes in handy in solodex!
As for the integra stepping out, i noticed it when Brent was driving as well. And banzai, come nah man, in a performance car, that is a lovely thing to beable to do, ESPECIALLY with a front wheel drive!! Rather than understeer, a little over steer is nice! Sounds like the guy did not take the time to et to know the car before monkeying around with it.

man even though you think you KNOW a car, every one is different, and a performance car needs time to explore the limits. You never know what can happen.

[honda hoe]

these cars do oversteer

if u not prepared for it u will spin out

from my limited experience at dex plus playin d ass on the road lil bit when u entering a corner u give it gas... the lsd is a b!tch... it will hug the corner... the back will step out a bit but wit a bit of counter steering u'll be just fine

pullin handbrakes banzai is a big no no

[16 cycles]

not attempting to trivialize the topic but the GT1 handbook was a real eye-opener for me at a very young age about car dynamics

http://www.essell.org/gt/granturismoguide.zip

^ click for dload

taken from

http://www.essell.org/gt/drivingguide.php

[cinco]

interesting discussion.
wont an easy remedy to this problem be to run less psi on the rear tyres of these cars?
when i switched to the 20mm TRD rear sway on my corolla i had to do that to keep the back end in check as it was really easy to upset off throttle

[X2]

I would figure the lower pressure on the rear tires would result in the car dancing around more when the suspension moves. The rear tires would compress and get great traction under cornering and acceleration, but again... if you lift the X too early, it will unload the rear suspension and transfer the weight from the back, side walls will straighten up, lose the fat contact patch and fwd scandinavian flick... tail will want to wag the dog.