Petrotrin refinery shut down

[sMASH]

PNM is blight.

[zoom rader]

PNM is blight.

Nah

PNM is Blank

[Redman]

One has to be myopic to believe that this is a party issue.

ALL parties used Petrotrin and other state enterprises as mechanisms to extract money while peddling influence and repaying financiers.

It eh happening now-this is a 20 year creep-that could be solved inside 1 financial year.

It was just easier for ALL govts to sweep it under the carpet.

Until now.

[sMASH]

but only one party shut it down, and put thousands upon thousands on the breadlines. not jsut direct and contacted workers, but also, the service industries that supported them.

[Redman]

but only one party shut it down, and put thousands upon thousands on the breadlines. not jsut direct and contacted workers, but also, the service industries that supported them.

Sure- you should look at Petrotrin profits-(as per financials) vs oil prices.
You smart enough to know that it would have been large deficits.
It needed to happen.

They ballz up the restart-however it could have been done.

But given the direct and causal relationship between oil prices and Petrotrin profits- we would have been in real pain...and YOU would be here criticising the PNM for inaction.

[sMASH]

nope. no report recommended to close it. and every one in support of petrotrin closing, looking at it from a profit generation point of view. i was looking at it from the clico/urp point of view. u keeping people employed, a lot of people employed, and u had it ready to accept guyana crude.

the same way they say carnival does bring in business, tobago jazz does bring in business and the brian lara stadium does bring in business, so we cant look at it from a profit and loss point of view, petrotrin was an even greater iteration of this than all of them combined.
espinet was getting it profitable. the loss in money to the govt, is way less than the not stagnation, but the crippling of the economy.
dat eh nutten, we will send them fellas to find wuk in five islands,

[elec2020]

The point of a business is for making profits... not for empoyment... both clico and petrotrin were heading downhill... the longer u take to address a failing company... the greater financial support that may be needed... also...correct me if i am wrong... but we are yet to have a oil and gas trade agreement with guyana (who is currently in a mess and may end up like venezuala the longer the election farce continues)... so the refinery would have still needed foreign imports... which we found out were uneconomical... closing the refinery was the right thing to do... a business is not a charity

[sMASH]

The point of a business is for making profits... not for empoyment... both clico and petrotrin were heading downhill... the longer u take to address a failing company... the greater financial support that may be needed... also...correct me if i am wrong... but we are yet to have a oil and gas trade agreement with guyana (who is currently in a mess and may end up like venezuala the longer the election farce continues)... so the refinery would have still needed foreign imports... which we found out were uneconomical... closing the refinery was the right thing to do... a business is not a charity

the govt is not a business, hence why clico, carnival, jazz bl stadium etc. the point is to keep people employed, and not creating wuk for gg.

and, if that was the correct thing to do, then PNM have no right to talk about reopening the refinery.

[elec2020]

The point of a business is for making profits... not for empoyment... both clico and petrotrin were heading downhill... the longer u take to address a failing company... the greater financial support that may be needed... also...correct me if i am wrong... but we are yet to have a oil and gas trade agreement with guyana (who is currently in a mess and may end up like venezuala the longer the election farce continues)... so the refinery would have still needed foreign imports... which we found out were uneconomical... closing the refinery was the right thing to do... a business is not a charity

the govt is not a business, hence why clico, carnival, jazz bl stadium etc. the point is to keep people employed, and not creating wuk for gg.

and, if that was the correct thing to do, then PNM have no right to talk about reopening the refinery.

The reopening of the refinery was to score political points... anyone can see that... if i recall economies of scale at the refinery are maximised at 100,000 barrels of oil... in other words costs per output are lowest when 100,000 barrels of oil are used... and petrotrin only produces 60,000 barrels so 40,000 barrels had to be imported... the restructuing was aimed at improving production and when it reaches closer to what the refinery needs to have low costs per output... then it would be reopened...truth be told i am not sure of what the numbers are with respect to heritage's number of oil barrels extracted per day but i doubt they have made up that 40000 gap so quick... also what is the sense of keeping a business running as is when it is failing just because u want to keep people employed? No wonder wasa is such a success story... and just like i said earlier when u fail to take the necessary action immediately to correct a failing company u will only making the issue worse down the line... case in point... even if they restructure wasa now... the damage done already... poor pipelines... low water retention... low resevoirs... poor water distribution... what u think would be the cost to fix that now... compared to if they fixed that in lets say 10 years ago? U cant have businesses running just to save jobs

[Redman]

I was vague -Something had to be done. I again say that the refinery should be operating-but not without drastic change-my first choice is GORTT retain ownership-let someone run it...
It has been handled badly.



But lets continue the convo...

If 2012 was the last profitable year that the company had.
and oil prices since 2016-no have been below ANY 2016 estimates- the Losses accumulated would have been significant.

Both Solomon and Lashley reports said the same things- Too much Govt intervention, Wage bill(labor) and Management...

Govt Intervention -well you figure how the govt intervening to stop their intervention.Any of our Govts would cede control?
You tell me how OWTU was going to allow the retrenchment of 50% of the workers -in order to save the co.-to get down to the 3000 range
Management ....well see above.

While the reports made recommendations they did not have the political responsibility to execute.

The Lashley report quotes the solomon report directly regarding the salaries being 50% of operating cost-something many here claimed to be false.
Implying either salaries too high....or there were too many workers.

The solutions were politically impossible.....(ironically proving the reports correct).

[zoom rader]

I was vague -Something had to be done. I again say that the refinery should be operating-but not without drastic change-my first choice is GORTT retain ownership-let someone run it...
It has been handled badly.



But lets continue the convo...

If 2012 was the last profitable year that the company had.
and oil prices since 2016-no have been below ANY 2016 estimates- the Losses accumulated would have been significant.

Both Solomon and Lashley reports said the same things- Too much Govt intervention, Wage bill(labor) and Management...

Govt Intervention -well you figure how the govt intervening to stop their intervention.Any of our Govts would cede control?
You tell me how OWTU was going to allow the retrenchment of 50% of the workers -in order to save the co.-to get down to the 3000 range
Management ....well see above.

While the reports made recommendations they did not have the political responsibility to execute.

The Lashley report quotes the solomon report directly regarding the salaries being 50% of operating cost-something many here claimed to be false.
Implying either salaries too high....or there were too many workers.

The solutions were politically impossible.....(ironically proving the reports correct).

It was a case of both High Salaries and PNM Political appointed workers over the years .

[De Dragon]

I was vague -Something had to be done. I again say that the refinery should be operating-but not without drastic change-my first choice is GORTT retain ownership-let someone run it...
It has been handled badly.



But lets continue the convo...

If 2012 was the last profitable year that the company had.
and oil prices since 2016-no have been below ANY 2016 estimates- the Losses accumulated would have been significant.

Both Solomon and Lashley reports said the same things- Too much Govt intervention, Wage bill(labor) and Management...

Govt Intervention -well you figure how the govt intervening to stop their intervention.Any of our Govts would cede control?
You tell me how OWTU was going to allow the retrenchment of 50% of the workers -in order to save the co.-to get down to the 3000 range
Management ....well see above.

While the reports made recommendations they did not have the political responsibility to execute.

The Lashley report quotes the solomon report directly regarding the salaries being 50% of operating cost-something many here claimed to be false.
Implying either salaries too high....or there were too many workers.

The solutions were politically impossible.....(ironically proving the reports correct).

Yet they "allowed" 100% of them to be retrenched? The PNM could have paid any of dozens of fly by night "consultants" to give them that report, but Solomon and Mckinsey as well as the Lashley report NEVER said shut the refinery. They said that despite higher staff levels, PT had significantly less business results. They even said that simply reducing numbers would not necessarily mean a more efficient refinery.
The plain fact is that from Samsung, to GTL and now, the PNM through its agents like Malcolm Jones have screwed up PT, and that rather than implement the recommendations of the Solomon/McKinsey reports(which together cost taxpayers 33.4 million dollars btw), JUHN Scarfy and his minions closed the refinery to which end we are now hemorrhaging USD, and the refinery sale cannot be concluded, and we are now worst off than we were prior to the closure in that we've added unnecessary hardship for thousands of ex employees, businesses and contractors.

[Redman]

So tell me how a govt implements the recc of either party and stay in power.

It's not that either report was wrong....just what was needed was political suicide.

[De Dragon]

So tell me how a govt implements the recc of either party and stay in power.

It's not that either report was wrong....just what was needed was political suicide.

Follow the advice given to you by the people you paid millions of dollars to. It would have been more politically expedient to keep the refinery open. When it re-opens, the same cannot be allowed to happen with staff,mismanagement and political interference, else all we'll be left with is the same inefficient refinery and no revenue. I'm convinced that OWTU hasn't the wherewithal to turn the refinery around, as they are already talking sheit about 4500 workers They seem bent on following the same path, not for political reasons, but for unrealistic altruistic reasons, which unfortunately will leave the refinery no better off.

[Redman]

You act like you don't know how any reduction in force at Petrotrin would be dealt with by the union, the opposition et al.

Impossible ...and the refinery would be shut in due to strikes...etc etc etc

[zoom rader]

You act like you don't know how any reduction in force at Petrotrin would be dealt with by the union, the opposition et al.

Impossible ...and the refinery would be shut in due to strikes...etc etc etc

How many contractors where employed in Petrotrin?

Getting rid of what ever contractos is the first step.

Redundancy is the next step followed by Vsep.

I have worked oil in companies that have all applied the same and it worked for them.

The Union knew about the sell out and kept it from the workers.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

You act like you don't know how any reduction in force at Petrotrin would be dealt with by the union, the opposition et al.

Impossible ...and the refinery would be shut in due to strikes...etc etc etc

So a reduction in force would be dealt with a certain way by the union but firing everyone (worse) would not be dealt with a certain way by the union. Yeah right.
People make up stories and believe them eventually because it is convenient. At the end of the day the owner of the company known as Petrotrin is the government. Not the owtu.

Government could have restructured it in a better way and the union would have went along. No evidence to suggest otherwise. This holds for UNC too. Both stood by waiting till it was too late.

[De Dragon]

You act like you don't know how any reduction in force at Petrotrin would be dealt with by the union, the opposition et al.

Impossible ...and the refinery would be shut in due to strikes...etc etc etc

No, I act like I saw what actually happened, which was Roget's kant didn't open at all. I don't understand your point, reducing staff would somehow be met with more resistance than firing everybody?
If, and it is a big if, OWTU knew about getting the refinery, and simply intends to overstaff the refinery again, and change nothing else, which again, they lack the necessary acumen to do, then we'll just have wasted 3 potentially profitable years of the refinery's life, which isn't infinite btw.

[Redman]

Running the refinery while working through a RIF would be worse than shutting down..

There were several parties that wanted to buy the refinery....OR engage the govt in the venture as a partner.

They spent quite a ton of their capital time and resources in due dilli pre 2017.... the single insurmountable hurdle was the union.

What was stated to me by one of the principals,during their work was that the creep that went on over the years (in terms of sequential Govts sequential negotiations with successive unions) resulted in the OWT having an ironclad monopoly on representation in Petrotrin.

Compounding the issue was their INFORMED position that the Union HAD to be in the representative body once the GORTT was involved.This commitment had 10+ years

That stopped them in their tracks to the point where they killed the project.
At that point their financiers,project management, and HR to operate were in place....so in their words that union agreement was a deal breaker

RIF and GORTT keeping ownership meant that the union was still in control ....since GORTT still owned the refinery.

So waving the ownership of the refinery and getting them going seems to be the only solution.
That was politically digestible...

ARGUABLY At this point the GORTT gave every opportunity for the union to close-and failure is on the union.

[Gladiator]

Running the refinery while working through a RIF would be worse than shutting down..

There were several parties that wanted to buy the refinery....OR engage the govt in the venture as a partner.

They spent quite a ton of their capital time and resources in due dilli pre 2017.... the single insurmountable hurdle was the union.

What was stated to me by one of the principals,during their work was that the creep that went on over the years (in terms of sequential Govts sequential negotiations with successive unions) resulted in the OWT having an ironclad monopoly on representation in Petrotrin.

Compounding the issue was their INFORMED position that the Union HAD to be in the representative body once the GORTT was involved.This commitment had 10+ years

That stopped them in their tracks to the point where they killed the project.

RIF and GORTT keeping ownership meant that the union was still in control ....since GORTT still owned the refinery.

So waving the ownership of the refinery and getting them going seems to be the only solution.
That was politically digestible...

ARGUABLY At this point the GORTT gave every opportunity for the union to close-and failure is on the union.

I am trying hard to understand your logic but it just does not make any sense. If they feared sabotage from reducing the manpower, and didn't sell to a private entity due to that reason, then why not just sell to the private entity now as it is all closed down... why hang out for the Union to buy it.

This whole Petrotrin problem seems as though Roget and the PNM were in collaboration to intentionally shut down the company and then offer it up for sale to the Union. Roget is a massive sellout and those who supporting him are just opportunists...

[Redman]

I cant justify the current state of play-Im not trying to.
Cuz they ballz it up.And they ballz up the restart/sale/restructure.

In 2018 they Espinet stated that they could not make the Lashey/Solomon reccs work....so they had to close it down...
I believe that they had little choice given the issues they had at the time.

Certainly they cant be happy with how it turned out.

[elec2020]

I agree with Redman... the last few annual statements for petrotrin showed that they were making a loss... the lashley and solomon reports stated that wages and productivity needed to be addressed... owtu has shown that if u try to go against them they will hold the country to ransom... or as roget state it... we gah shut it down... in a case where u have a union with so much power... that i am sure would block ways to reduce wages and increase productivity... what do u do... u scrap the whole labor force and start back from 0... in a perfect world pnm would have then used that once in a lifetime opportunity to make petrotrin into a well drilled machine... but as redman said... they balls'd it up

[sMASH]

all them points of how the govt goin to get change with the union still in place, were a reasonable assumption, UNTIL the govt decided to put it back into that same said union's hands.
lol.


govt: refinery needs to be shut down, draining the economy
*shuts down refinery*
govt: refinery needs to be restarted, could source crude from guyana

govt: the union is the problem
*puts union to RUN the damn thing*




just face it, pnm making illogical decisions. which most likely means, its making decisions for reasons that we dont know. most likely its corruption.

[sMASH]

yes the company had those problems that needed addressing. but the problem with the action they took is that it was worse for the country as a whole.
the union can fight layoffs, but as long as the company had valid reasons, the industrial courts would uphold that decision. provided the company goes according to the grievances procedure, and doenst mess up the reasons for dismissal.
the company made a profit the last quarter, as was printed in the papers. with no adjustments to salary.

[Redman]

The last annual profit was in 2013.
2011 .profits..2.2B wages...1.4B with OT
2012..profits... 1.00B wages...1.56B with OT
2013...profits.. 157m...Wages...1.8B with OT

Oil prices were well north of $80 during 2011 to 2014
Profits peaked in 2012...while wages peaked in 2014.
What would the profits look like 2015 to 2020?

[Gladiator]

The last annual profit was in 2013.
2011 .profits..2.2B wages...1.4B with OT
2012..profits... 1.00B wages...1.56B with OT
2013...profits.. 157m...Wages...1.8B with OT

Oil prices were well north of $80 during 2011 to 2014
Profits peaked in 2012...while wages peaked in 2014.
What would the profits look like 2015 to 2020?

How were the profits related to the Malcom Jones 3 Billion dollar US loan and subsequent debt. Was this factored into the bottom line?

[Redman]

Nope that was written off 8n the 14b loss in the 2018 numbers

[gastly369]

whole thing was the "Avian Virus" that was the major issue....

[The_Honourable]

Patriotic, TPHL in meeting to sign off on refinery acquisition



WITHIN hours, it is expected that government will sign off on the Pointe-a-Pierre refinery acquisition process with Patriotic Energies and Technologies Company Ltd.

Patriotic is the fully owned subsidy company of the Oilfield Workers Trade Union (OWTU) which was selected by government as the preferred bidder from among 77 expressions of interest, to acquire the assets of the refinery and port at Pointe-a-Pierre following the closure of Petrotrin.

President General of the OWTU Ancel Roget along with two of Patriotic’s directors, Ozzi Warwick and Richard Lee, were invited to a 11 am meeting on Thursday and are now meeting with the chairman of Trinidad Petroleum Holdings Ltd (TPHL) Newman George, CEO of Paria Fuel Trading Company Ltd Mustaq Mohammed and with the company’s attorney. The meeting is taking place at Petrotrin's Maraval Road, Port of Spain, office.

TPHL is vested with the responsibility of managing TT’s oil and related assets and has four subsidiaries including Paria, Heritage Petroleum Company Ltd, Guaracara Refinery Ltd and Petroleum Company of TT (Petrotrin).

Before leaving for the meeting, Roget addressed the media at Paramount Building, San Fernando, to say he was hoping to have announced the completion of the first phase of the two-phase process, which is the acquisition of the refinery and port.

However, he said what ever the outcome during Thursday’s meeting he will update country on Friday.

Last Wednesday, at the launch of the Petrotrin Land Distribution Programme for workers who were terminated the Prime Minister announced his readiness to sign off on the agreement with Patriotic.

In response to that statement, Roget said Rowley gave the impression that the OWTU only had to sign, “And we would have completed the first stage of a two stage process – that is to say the asset purchase agreement – and then move on to the closing process.”

Roget said that was not the case. In fact, he said, between last Wednesday and this Thursday, “We would have hoped from that time to now, because he would have told the country it was just a matter of days, we would have been able to close that first stage of the process and announce in a like manner this morning.

“This morning, I want to offer an apology because we cannot at this time announce that we would have signed, because we did not meet this week. However, yesterday (Wednesday) we were called and informed that a meeting aimed at closing the first phase would take place today at 11 am.

“We thought it necessary, out of respect for the media and through your medium, out of respect for the people of the country, the people who are called to make a decision in a matter of weeks, that they hear from me we are postponing this announcement until the outcome tomorrow (Friday).”

Source: https://newsday.co.tt/2020/07/23/patrio ... cquisition

[sMASH]

eleventh hour business