The Religion Discussion

[illumin@ti]

round and round we go again ,,,,

Bluefete,,, when will we get off this not-so-merry-go-round?

when asked for proof, you cant answer with faith

faith dont cut it in a court of law, how can it apply here.

Show me proof that the election result as per your thread title (5th iteration) is the will of god.

Answer me with proof, and not scripture quotes or allusions to biblical tales.

Kamla is the Prime Minister, not so? What more proof do you want?

come come now blue, you know a one-liner like that wont satisfy me ..... go on, tell me how and why ,, wheres the proof

[bluefete]

but didnt Christ already die for your sins? How are you still a sinner?

Christ died to pave the way back to heaven for us and to be the intercessor between God and man.

Remember that when Jesus taught us the Lord's Prayer, he did not say, Our Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Christian Father, but Our Father, the God of ALL men and women.

The same goes for the night of his birth when the angels said to the shepherds - "Goodwill to ALL men" not the Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Christian men alone.

We are all sinners until we repent and do our best to refrain from sinning.

[bluefete]

round and round we go again ,,,,

Bluefete,,, when will we get off this not-so-merry-go-round?

when asked for proof, you cant answer with faith

faith dont cut it in a court of law, how can it apply here.

Show me proof that the election result as per your thread title (5th iteration) is the will of god.

Answer me with proof, and not scripture quotes or allusions to biblical tales.

Kamla is the Prime Minister, not so? What more proof do you want?

come come now blue, you know a one-liner like that wont satisfy me ..... go on, tell me how and why ,, wheres the proof

How and why? Go as Patrick why he called the election. I bet you he cannot give you a logical answer. Divine intervention!!!

Like I wrote, the proof is in front your face. Kamla is the Prime Minister!! Why is this so difficult for you to accept.?

[illumin@ti]

round and round we go again ,,,,

Bluefete,,, when will we get off this not-so-merry-go-round?

when asked for proof, you cant answer with faith

faith dont cut it in a court of law, how can it apply here.

Show me proof that the election result as per your thread title (5th iteration) is the will of god.

Answer me with proof, and not scripture quotes or allusions to biblical tales.

Kamla is the Prime Minister, not so? What more proof do you want?

come come now blue, you know a one-liner like that wont satisfy me ..... go on, tell me how and why ,, wheres the proof

How and why? Go as Patrick why he called the election. I bet you he cannot give you a logical answer. Divine intervention!!!

Like I wrote, the proof is in front your face. Kamla is the Prime Minister!! Why is this so difficult for you to accept.?

Sadly mistaken Blue - your first assumption is incorrect. if yuh want to try your hand at logic.. the same god you and 'Doc toutin and spoutin bout would divinely intervene and then do what, put a Hindu woman in charge? how logical is that?

Secondly, i have no political interest in the question at hand at all. I am not a 'feelings toter' or a mindless follower of politics or religion. So its not a matter of anything being hard for me to accept...

i just called on you to explain to me your proof that the election result is in fact an edict from god... I cant ask you a simpler question

[bluefete]

why does jesus let the stray dogs suffer?

because MG man is more valuable to him than a dog
after peolpe like MG man take heed, repent and turn to God then he may consider anything else, jesus loves you first.
unless u think a dog is more valuable than you

so you saying all life is not of equal value???
So jesus has an agenda with a list of priorities?
Why can't the innocent creatures that his loving father created be dealt with at the same time???????
So the innocent animals must suffer because he can't multitask?



Think carefully b4 u answer

MGMan: You are also being disingenuous!

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:27-31

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. Genesis 6:5-7

1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Genesis 9:1-3

What does all this have to do with stray dogs? God put their care into our hands. We are responsible for stray dogs.

[Sky]

Blue said something about someone warning Manning about listening to the people.
That's his testimony on it. But I think that's as physical, logical and Earthly as telling a child don't put their hand in a hot pot, and when they do, they get burnt.
Everyone was fedup of Manning's movements. He'd do what he want and not listen to the people. At the end of the day their voice matter, and when he didn't listen to their voices they spoke with their fingers. Simple as that. A 12 year old coulda tell Manning that.
I dunno why bluefete clinging onto simple logic to defend God. Blue you're being retarded, change the thread name.

[bluefete]

round and round we go again ,,,,

Bluefete,,, when will we get off this not-so-merry-go-round?

when asked for proof, you cant answer with faith

faith dont cut it in a court of law, how can it apply here.

Show me proof that the election result as per your thread title (5th iteration) is the will of god.

Answer me with proof, and not scripture quotes or allusions to biblical tales.

Kamla is the Prime Minister, not so? What more proof do you want?

come come now blue, you know a one-liner like that wont satisfy me ..... go on, tell me how and why ,, wheres the proof

How and why? Go as Patrick why he called the election. I bet you he cannot give you a logical answer. Divine intervention!!!

Like I wrote, the proof is in front your face. Kamla is the Prime Minister!! Why is this so difficult for you to accept.?

Sadly mistaken Blue - your first assumption is incorrect. if yuh want to try your hand at logic.. the same god you and 'Doc toutin and spoutin bout would divinely intervene and then do what, put a Hindu woman in charge? how logical is that?

Secondly, i have no political interest in the question at hand at all. I am not a 'feelings toter' or a mindless follower of politics or religion. So its not a matter of anything being hard for me to accept...

i just called on you to explain to me your proof that the election result is in fact an edict from god... I cant ask you a simpler question

God is no respecter of persons or religion!!!

"No Respecter of Persons"



The Bible teaches that there is no respecter of persons with God, "For there is no respect of persons with God," Paul declared (Rom. 2: 11). However, such is hard for man to realize, especially since man is often given to respect of persons. Nonetheless, the scriptures are emphatic and replete with teaching that presents God as not judging or treating man, any man, with respect of persons. In other words, God is just and equitable in his dealings with man (Calvinism and other false systems of theology that present God acting with respect of persons to the contrary, notwithstanding). (To read more about Calvinism, click on "What is Calvinism?")

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him;" "And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him;" "But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons;" "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" (Acts 10: 34, 35; Eph. 6: 9; Col. 3: 25; I Pet. 1: 17).

If God is truly no respecter of persons and treats all men equally (in the sense being addressed), then we would expect to find certain cardinal truths in the Bible to be conducive to and harmonious with the fact of God not being a respecter of persons. Let us see if this is really the case.

All men are under the same law. Men today, regardless of race, education, or location, are under the "perfect law of liberty" (Jas. 1: 25). Let us appreciate the fact that while the Law of Moses (designed for the Jew) has been abrogated, we are under the law of Christ (Gal. 6: 2; I Cor. 9: 21). This law is unique in that it is law and grace combined; hence, the perfect law of liberty (see Jn. 1: 17). The gospel, Jesus' law, was to be preached to the whole world (Matt. 28: 19; Mk. 16: 15, 16). In fact, in about twenty-five years all had heard the gospel (Rom. 10: 18). (To read more about law, click on "A Study of Law").

Beloved, both the Christian and non-Christian are answerable and amenable to God's law. John had Christians primarily in mind when he penned, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (I Jn. 3: 4, see the context). Romans 8: 7 ("the carnal mind is …not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be") is not saying that the non-Christian is not answerable to God's law. Rather, the thought is the worldly mind is not interested in God's law and will not be in its present state of carnality. Of the Corinthians Paul wrote, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified…" (I Cor. 6: 11). They had been (before they became Christians) thieves, drunkards, and adulterers (vs. 9, 10). The fact that they had been while non-Christians thieves, drunkards, and adulterers proves they were judged by and answerable to God's law before they became Christians (Eph. 4: 29; Eph. 5: 18; Matt. 19: 9, notice that God considers non-Christians in unscriptural marriages as being in adultery).

Salvation for all men. The Bible says that all men sin (Rom. 3: 23). Therefore, all men (accountable men and women) need salvation. The grace of God that brings salvation "has appeared to all men" (Tit. 2: 11). Jesus is the means of salvation for all men. Jesus, we are told, tasted death for "every man" (Heb. 2: 9). Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of man's sins (Matt. 26: 28). Paul wrote thus of Jesus, "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2: 6). Hence, Jude referred to the "common salvation," available to all men (Jude 3).

Salvation is offered to all men on the same conditions. Yes, there are conditions. If there were no conditions, then all men would unconditionally and universally be saved. However, such will not be the case (Matt. 7: 13, 14). Remember Peter said,

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10: 34, 35).

To "work righteouness" means to do what God has required of man to do in order to be saved. The scriptures plainly teach: belief; repentance; confession of Jesus' deity; and water baptism for the remission of sins (Jn. 8: 24; Lk. 13: 3, 5; Rom. 10: 9, 10; Acts 2: 38, 22: 16). All men must accept God's grace in the precise same way. God does not require some to believe, repent, confess, and be baptized and not require the same of others. God only has one plan of salvation for all men (Click on "What Must I do to be Saved?" to see more).

A common church for all men. Jesus promised to build his church (Matt. 16: 18, 19). Jesus said that he would build his church despite death and hades (Ibid.). The establishment of Jesus' church was very important because "in Christ" we have redemption and all spiritual blessings (Eph. 1: 3-7). Jesus' church is for Jew and Gentile alike (Eph. 2: 16). All who are scripturally baptized are placed into Jesus' church or body (Gal. 3: 26, 27, I Cor. 12: 13, see Eph. 1: 22, 23). Hence, there is but one body or church (Eph. 4: 4, Col. 1: 18, if you want to learn more about the church, click on "The Church Jesus Built").

All men will be judged by the same standard. It is appointed unto all once to die and then the judgment (Heb. 9: 27). The Bible says, "…for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (Rom. 14: 10, cp. 2 Cor. 5: 10). Consider the great judgment scene to come:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20: 11-15).

Beloved, all men will be judged by the standard of God's word compared to how they lived and accepted or rejected God's grace in this life (Jn. 12: 48).

In conclusion, when we examine in detail the various features and teachings of the gospel, they are all consistent and conducive to the fact that God is no respecter of persons. Let us now revisit the text of Romans 2: 11. Verse eleven that we quoted in the beginning of this article is actually the climax to a passage that begins with verse six. Please consider the passage and the conclusion again: "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."

http://www.bibletruths.net/archives/BTAR152.htm

Yeah I know. You will say that is not "proof."

Go back and read the Book of Daniel and the tale of King Nebuchadnezzar and his son Balshazzar.

[bluefete]

Blue said something about someone warning Manning about listening to the people.
That's his testimony on it. But I think that's as physical, logical and Earthly as telling a child don't put their hand in a hot pot, and when they do, they get burnt.
Everyone was fedup of Manning's movements. He'd do what he want and not listen to the people. At the end of the day their voice matter, and when he didn't listen to their voices they spoke with their fingers. Simple as that. A 12 year old coulda tell Manning that.
I dunno why bluefete clinging onto simple logic to defend God. Blue you're being retarded, change the thread name.

If my logic is so simple, why is it so difficult for you to understand?

[bluefete]

People talk about the Holocaust in WW2 without realizing that it was a generational curse on the Jews going back almost 2,000 years.

"24When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." Matthew 27:24-25

Like i been sayin all along, these ppl are off dey fleckin rockers

I am not the one walking around with a bomb strapped to my chest and blowing up little children, men and women.

[illumin@ti]

God is no respecter of persons or religion!!!

"No Respecter of Persons"



The Bible teaches that there is no respecter of persons with God, "For there is no respect of persons with God," Paul declared (Rom. 2: 11). However, such is hard for man to realize, especially since man is often given to respect of persons. Nonetheless, the scriptures are emphatic and replete with teaching that presents God as not judging or treating man, any man, with respect of persons. In other words, God is just and equitable in his dealings with man (Calvinism and other false systems of theology that present God acting with respect of persons to the contrary, notwithstanding). (To read more about Calvinism, click on "What is Calvinism?")

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him;" "And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him;" "But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons;" "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" (Acts 10: 34, 35; Eph. 6: 9; Col. 3: 25; I Pet. 1: 17).

If God is truly no respecter of persons and treats all men equally (in the sense being addressed), then we would expect to find certain cardinal truths in the Bible to be conducive to and harmonious with the fact of God not being a respecter of persons. Let us see if this is really the case.

All men are under the same law. Men today, regardless of race, education, or location, are under the "perfect law of liberty" (Jas. 1: 25). Let us appreciate the fact that while the Law of Moses (designed for the Jew) has been abrogated, we are under the law of Christ (Gal. 6: 2; I Cor. 9: 21). This law is unique in that it is law and grace combined; hence, the perfect law of liberty (see Jn. 1: 17). The gospel, Jesus' law, was to be preached to the whole world (Matt. 28: 19; Mk. 16: 15, 16). In fact, in about twenty-five years all had heard the gospel (Rom. 10: 18). (To read more about law, click on "A Study of Law").

Beloved, both the Christian and non-Christian are answerable and amenable to God's law. John had Christians primarily in mind when he penned, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (I Jn. 3: 4, see the context). Romans 8: 7 ("the carnal mind is …not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be") is not saying that the non-Christian is not answerable to God's law. Rather, the thought is the worldly mind is not interested in God's law and will not be in its present state of carnality. Of the Corinthians Paul wrote, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified…" (I Cor. 6: 11). They had been (before they became Christians) thieves, drunkards, and adulterers (vs. 9, 10). The fact that they had been while non-Christians thieves, drunkards, and adulterers proves they were judged by and answerable to God's law before they became Christians (Eph. 4: 29; Eph. 5: 18; Matt. 19: 9, notice that God considers non-Christians in unscriptural marriages as being in adultery).

Salvation for all men. The Bible says that all men sin (Rom. 3: 23). Therefore, all men (accountable men and women) need salvation. The grace of God that brings salvation "has appeared to all men" (Tit. 2: 11). Jesus is the means of salvation for all men. Jesus, we are told, tasted death for "every man" (Heb. 2: 9). Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of man's sins (Matt. 26: 28). Paul wrote thus of Jesus, "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2: 6). Hence, Jude referred to the "common salvation," available to all men (Jude 3).

Salvation is offered to all men on the same conditions. Yes, there are conditions. If there were no conditions, then all men would unconditionally and universally be saved. However, such will not be the case (Matt. 7: 13, 14). Remember Peter said,

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10: 34, 35).

To "work righteouness" means to do what God has required of man to do in order to be saved. The scriptures plainly teach: belief; repentance; confession of Jesus' deity; and water baptism for the remission of sins (Jn. 8: 24; Lk. 13: 3, 5; Rom. 10: 9, 10; Acts 2: 38, 22: 16). All men must accept God's grace in the precise same way. God does not require some to believe, repent, confess, and be baptized and not require the same of others. God only has one plan of salvation for all men (Click on "What Must I do to be Saved?" to see more).

A common church for all men. Jesus promised to build his church (Matt. 16: 18, 19). Jesus said that he would build his church despite death and hades (Ibid.). The establishment of Jesus' church was very important because "in Christ" we have redemption and all spiritual blessings (Eph. 1: 3-7). Jesus' church is for Jew and Gentile alike (Eph. 2: 16). All who are scripturally baptized are placed into Jesus' church or body (Gal. 3: 26, 27, I Cor. 12: 13, see Eph. 1: 22, 23). Hence, there is but one body or church (Eph. 4: 4, Col. 1: 18, if you want to learn more about the church, click on "The Church Jesus Built").

All men will be judged by the same standard. It is appointed unto all once to die and then the judgment (Heb. 9: 27). The Bible says, "…for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (Rom. 14: 10, cp. 2 Cor. 5: 10). Consider the great judgment scene to come:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20: 11-15).

Beloved, all men will be judged by the standard of God's word compared to how they lived and accepted or rejected God's grace in this life (Jn. 12: 48).

In conclusion, when we examine in detail the various features and teachings of the gospel, they are all consistent and conducive to the fact that God is no respecter of persons. Let us now revisit the text of Romans 2: 11. Verse eleven that we quoted in the beginning of this article is actually the climax to a passage that begins with verse six. Please consider the passage and the conclusion again: "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."

http://www.bibletruths.net/archives/BTAR152.htm

Yeah I know. You will say that is not "proof."

Go back and read the Book of Daniel and the tale of King Nebuchadnezzar and his son Balshazzar.

as expected ... a cut and paste... oh emm effing G

come up for some air Blue..... how is it that according to your cut/paste he is no respecter of persons ( conveniently of course ) so now a non christian woman is sent by him to be the way forward, the salvation as it were? Ur not making sense blue. try again

[bluefete]

Toyo , both you and megadoc are apparently staunch believers in Jesus, but one point I want to ask about is, megadoc1 says he does not sin at all and you say that everyone sins everyday.

Megadoc1 says that people who believe that everyone sins everyday do not understand the religion.

So from this, is either you or him don't understand your religion, which is it?

Furthermore, you speak of a mother drinking or smoking and it affects her child, of course everyone knows that.

But why does your all powerful God subject the CHILD to such hardships? The child didn't do anything, the mother did.

That aside, what about bluefete who said the holocaust happened due to something thousands of years before, you believe in that also? That the holocaust was God's work?

Was the flood God's work??

[Chimera]

but didnt Christ already die for your sins? How are you still a sinner?

Christ died to pave the way back to heaven for us and to be the intercessor between God and man.

Remember that when Jesus taught us the Lord's Prayer, he did not say, Our Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Christian Father, but Our Father, the God of ALL men and women.

The same goes for the night of his birth when the angels said to the shepherds - "Goodwill to ALL men" not the Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Christian men alone.

We are all sinners until we repent and do our best to refrain from sinning.

No I dont remember that, as I was not there, and neither were you or anyone you know.
You read that in a book.

If there was a section of the world, where in the sky at a certain time, you could read God's words or you can hear him talk from the heavens from 8-12pm (but not on fridays, cuz daz when he doz go out wid d hoes), then THAT would be proof I would be willing to accept.

Not what you read in a man made book.

[bluefete]

First of all,

My father is a hindu, my mother is a muslim and I went to a catholic school.

I do not follow any specific religion because all of them have stupid extreme traits which makes no sense at all.

well is there a better solution???? Make up our own god, or stop believing in one? How do we rid the world of evil? will a man who thinks there is no consequence for raping, killing stealing, molesting stop? we can say religion is crap and believe nothing and do everything, just my $.02. Or make a religion that makes it possible to practice what we like. Or we could follow one that rubs us the round way and goes against the evil we want to do.

Imagine a world where people actually believed killing was wrong. Were people would wait till they are married, stay faithful to their spouse, treat them with love and respect etc. There will certainly be less aids, less unwanted child, less single parent homes etc. Where men feared God to the point where they will not touch a innocent child, or rape an unsuspecting women. etc, etc. So what do you propose to achieve this? Now with gay rights being passing many people don't know that the next people who will start fighting for rights is the "MAN BOY LOVE ASSOCIATION', can you guess what they are about? Yes you guess it, making it legal to molest little children. You know why, just like homosexuals (once again not seeking to offend anyone, stating it as it is) they are born with that desire. Now when the Church was against, homosexuality we are blasted for being ignorant. So where does it stop. Soon it would be okay to have sex with animals etc etc.

Offer a better solution please and I am sure many will follow.

Toyo682, very well written. I clearly remember during the Tony Blair administration in the Uk that they moved the age of Man-Boy consent from 21 to 18 yeras and were considering dropping it to 16 years (the age at which you can legally have sex with a girl in the UK). As a matter of fact check out this table and weep!!

I don't have time to line up all the countries.

This table lists different countries around the world, and shows the ages at which people of different sexualities can legally have sex.

If you're an adult, and you're reading this page for personal information, then you might need a more detailed explanation of these laws as they relate to adults - you can find this on our age of consent FAQ page.

If you're a young person, and you want to find out more, read our page on teens, sex and the law. You might also like to have a look at our "Am I ready for sex?" page.


This table should only be used as general guide - please also read the notes at the bottom of this page.

Country Male-Female Sex Male-Male Sex Female-Female Sex
Afghanistan 18/Married Illegal Illegal
Albania 14 14 14
Algeria 16 Illegal Illegal
American Samoa 15? 15? 15?
Andorra 16 16 16
Angola 12/15 Illegal Illegal
Antigua and Barbuda 16 16 16
Argentina 13/16 13/16 13/16
Armenia 16 16 16
Aruba 16 16 16
Australia ACT 16 16 16
Australia NSW & Norfolk Is. 16 16 16
Australia NT 16 16 16
Australia Queensland1 16/18 18 16
Australia SA 17 17 17
Australia Tasmania 17 17 17
Australia Victoria 16 16 16
Australia WA 16 16 16
Austria2 14/16 14/16 14/16
Azerbaijan 16 16 16
Bahamas 16 18 18
Bahrain 16/Married
Illegal Illegal
Bangladesh ? Illegal Illegal
Barbados 16 Illegal Illegal
Belarus 16/18 16 16
Belgium 16 16 16
Belize 16 ? ?
Bermuda 16 18 16
Benin ? Illegal Illegal
Bhutan 18 Illegal ?
Bolivia 14f/16m ? ?
Bosnia 16 16 16
Botswana 16f/14m Illegal ?
Brazil3 14/18 14/18 14/18
Brunei 14/16 Illegal Illegal
Bulgaria 14 14 14
Burkina Faso 13 13 13
Burma/Myanmar ? Illegal ?
Burundi 18 Illegal ?
Cambodia (Kampuchea) 16 ? ?
Cambodia 16 ? ?
Cameroon Must be married
Illegal ?
Canada4 16/18 18 16
Cape Verde ? ? ?
Cayman Islands ? ? ?
Central African Republic ? ? ?
Chad ? 21 21
Chile 14 18 18
China 14 14 14
China - Hong Kong 16 16 16
China - Macao 16/17 ? ?
Colombia 14 14 14
Cook Islands 16 Illegal 16
Costa Rica 18 18 18
Cote D'Ivoire 15 15? 15?
Croatia 14 14 14
Cuba 16 16 16
Cyprus 13/17 17 (Illegal in north) 17
Czech Republic 15 15 15
Democratic Republic of the Congo ? Illegal ?
Denmark5 15 15 15
Dominica 16 ? ?
Dominican Republic 18 18 18
Dutch Antilles 16 16 16
Ecuador 14 14 14
Egypt 18 Illegal 18
El Salvador 18 ? ?
Equatorial Guinea ? ? ?
Eritrea 18 Illegal Illegal
Estonia 14 14 14
Ethiopia 15 Illegal Illegal
Falkland Islands (Malvinas) 16 16 16
Faroe Islands 15 15 15
Fiji 16 16 (unofficial) 16
Finland6 16 16 16
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 16 16 16
France 15 15 15
French Guiana 15 15 15
French Polynesia (Tahiti) 16 16 16
Gabon 18 18 18
Gambia 16 Illegal ?
Georgia (country) 16 16 16
Germany7 14/16 14/16 14/16
Ghana 16 Illegal Illegal
Gibraltar 16 18 16
Greece 15 15/17 15
Greenland 15 15 15
Grenada 17 Illegal 17
Guam 16 16 16
Guadelope 15 15 15
Guatemala 18 18 18
Guernsey 16 16 16
Guinea 15 Illegal Illegal
Guyana 16 Illegal 16
Haiti 18 18 18
Honduras 14/17 14 14
Hungary 14 14 14
Iceland 15 15 15
India8
14/16 18 18
Indonesia 16f/19m 18 18
Iran Must be married Illegal Illegal
Iraq 18 ? ?
Ireland 17 17 17
Isle of Man 16 16 16
Israel 14-16 14-16 14-16
Italy 14 14 14
Jamaica 16 Illegal 16
Japan9 13-18 13-18 13-18
Jersey 16 16 16
Jordan 16 16 16
Kazakhstan 18 ? ?
Kenya 18 Illegal 18
Kuwait Must be married? Illegal Illegal
Kyrgyzstan ? ? ?
Laos 15 ? ?
Latvia 14/16 14/16 14/16
Lebanon 15/18/Married Illegal Illegal
Lesotho ? ? ?
Liberia 16 Illegal Illegal
Liechtenstein 14 14 14
Lithuania 14 14 14
Luxembourg 16 16 16
Madagascar 21? 21 21
Mali 16 ? ?
Malta 18 18 18
Malaysia 16/Married Illegal 16
Marshall Islands 16 16 16
Martinique 15 15 15
Mauritius 15 Illegal Illegal
Mexico10 12-18 12-18 12-18
Moldova 14 14 14
Monaco 15 15 15
Mongolia 16 ? ?
Montenegro 14 14 14
Morocco 15 Illegal Illegal
Mozambique ? Illegal ?
Namibia 16 Illegal 16
Nepal 16 ? ?
Netherlands 16 16 16
Netherlands Antilles 16 16 16
New Caledonia 16 16 16
New Zealand 16 16 16
Nicaragua ? ? ?
Niger ? 21 21
Nigeria 13 Illegal Illegal
North Korea Undefined Undefined Undefined
Norway 16 16 16
Oman Must be married Illegal Illegal
Pakistan Must be married Illegal Illegal
Panama 18 18 18
Papua New Guinea11 16f/14m/Illegal Illegal 16
Paraquay12 14/16 16 16
Peru 14 14 14
Philippines13 12/18 12/18 12/18
Poland 15 15 15
Portugal14 14/16 14/16 14/16
Puerto Rico 1
14 14 14
Qatar Must be married Illegal Illegal
Reunion 16 16 16
Romania 15 15 15
Russia 16 16 16
Rwanda 18 18 18
San Marino 14/16 14/16 14/16
Saudi Arabia Must be married Illegal Illegal
Senegal ? Illegal Illegal
Serbia 14 14 14
Singapore 16 Illegal 16
Slovakia 15 15 15
Slovenia 15 15 15
Somalia ? Illegal Illegal
South Africa 2 16 16 16
South Korea 13 13 13
Spain 13 13 13
Sri Lanka 16 Illegal 16
St. Kitts and Nevis 14/16 ? ?
St. Lucia 16 16 16
St. Martin ? ? ?
Sudan Must be married Illegal Illegal
Suriname 16 18 18
Sweden 15 15 15
Swaziland 18 Illegal Illegal
Switzerland 16 16 16
Syria 13/15 Illegal Illegal
Taiwan 16 16 16
Tajikistan 17 ? 17
Tanzania 18 Illegal Illegal
Thailand15 15/18 15/18 15/18
Togo 14 Illegal Illegal
Tonga16 16/Illegal Illegal 16
Trinidad & Tobago 16 Illegal Illegal
Tunisia 20 Illegal Illegal
Turkey 18 18 18
Turkmenistan 16 Illegal 16
Tuvalu ? Illegal ?
Uganda 18 Illegal 18
Ukraine 16 16 16
United Arab Emirates 18/Married Illegal Illegal
United Kingdom 16 16 16
Uzbekistan 16 Illegal 16
Uruguay 15 15 15
Vanuatu 16 16 16
Vatican State
12 ? ?
Venezuela 16 16 16
Vietnam 18 18 18
Western Samoa 16 Illegal Illegal
Yemen Must be married Illegal Illegal
Zambia ? Illegal ?
Zimbabwe 12/16 Illegal 12/16
USA Alabama 16 16 16
USA Alaska 16 16 16
USA Arizona 18 18
18
USA Arkansas17 14/16 14/16 14/16
USA California 18 18 18
USA Colorado17 15/17 15/17 15/17
USA Connecticut 16 16 16
USA D.C. 16 16 16
USA Delaware17 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA Florida17 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA Georgia 16 16 16
USA Hawaii 16 16 16
USA Idaho 18 18 18
USA Illinois 17 17 17
USA Indiana17 14/16 14/16 14/16
USA Iowa17 14/16 14/16 14/16
USA Kansas 16 16 16
USA Kentucky 16 16 16
USA Louisiana17 17 17 17
USA Maine 16 16 16
USA Maryland 16 16 16
USA Massachusetts 16 16 16
USA Michigan 16 16 16
USA Minnesota 16 16 16
USA Mississippi 16 16 16
USA Missouri 17 17 17
USA Montana 16 16 16
USA Nebraska 17 17 17
USA Nevada 16 16 16
USA New Hampshire 16 16 16
USA New Jersey 16 16 16
USA New Mexico 17 17 17
USA New York 17 17 17
USA North Carolina17 16 16 16
USA North Dakota 18 18 18
USA Ohio 16 16 16
USA Oklahoma 16 16 16
USA Oregon 18 18 18
USA Pennsylvania 16 16 16
USA Rhode Island 16 16 16
USA South Carolina 16 16 16
USA South Dakota 16 16 16
USA Tennessee 18 18 18
USA Texas17 17 17 17
USA Utah17 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA Vermont 16 16 16
USA Virginia 18 18 18

USA Washington17 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA West Virginia 16 16 16

USA Wisconsin 18 18 18
USA Wyoming17 16/18 16/18 16/18
USA Travelling citizens18 12/16 12/16 12/16
USA Military personnel19 16 Illegal Illegal
Average age* 16 16 16

General notes
If more than one age is given then the law within that country or state varies according to region or circumstances. In particular, some countries have regional laws that may overrule the federal law. Also in some cases the age of consent is lower when partners are of a similar age. Where the symbol ? is used, information is either incomplete or unavailable.

In some countries the age of consent is higher for those taking part in commercial sex. In many countries the age of consent is higher when one partner is in a position of trust with regard to the other, or when one partner takes advantage of the other's immaturity. Age of consent laws often do not apply when the partners are married.

In this table, male-female sex is defined as vaginal or anal sex, and male-male sex is defined as anal sex. In some places the age of consent law applies to any sexual contact.

* The average age of consent does not include countries where it is illegal.

Footnotes
In Queensland, the legal age of consent for anal intercourse is 18 (regardless of gender), while for vaginal intercourse it is 16.
Although the Austrian age of consent is basically 14, it is illegal to have sex with someone under 16 by "exploiting their lack of maturity".
In Brazil, authorities may not choose to prosecute if the younger partner is aged 14 to 17 and does not lodge a complaint.
In Canada, unmarried persons under 18 cannot legally consent to anal sex according to national law, although provincial laws may vary.
In Denmark, sexual intercourse is legal from the age of 15 in most cases. An exception is when the younger partner is an adopted child, step-child, foster child or the older person is entrusted with the education or upbringing of the younger person. In this situation, the younger partner must be over 18.
In Finland, sex with someone under 16 is not deemed sexual abuse of a child if "there is no great difference in the ages or the mental and physical maturity of the persons involved." Similarly in Norway, a prison sentence may not be imposed "if those who have committed the act of indecency are about equal in age and development." In both countries, lesser punishments may nevertheless be imposed.
In Germany, sexual intercourse is legal from the age of 14 in most cases. An exception is when the older partner is aged over 18 and is "exploiting a coercive situation" or offering compensation, in which case the younger partner must be over 16. In addition, it is illegal for someone aged over 21 to have sex with someone under 16 if they "exploit the victim's lack of capacity for sexual self-determination".
India's age of consent for heterosexual sex is 16 except in Manipur, where it is 14. If the partners are married then a lower age of consent applies (13 in Manipur and 15 elsewhere). A law banning "carnal intercourse against the order of nature" was overruled in a Delhi High Court ruling, meaning that consensual homosexual activities between adults are now legal. A full copy of the descision can be found on the Naz Foundation
Although the age of sexual consent in Japan is 13 years of age, prefecture law usually overrides federal law, raising the age up to 18.
In Mexico the federal law varies according to the age gap between partners and is often overruled by regional laws.
In Papua New Guinea, anal sex is illegal in all cases. The age of consent for vaginal sex is 16 for females and 14 for males.
Paraguay sets the age of consent at 14 within marriage and 16 outside of marriage.
The age of sexual consent in the Philippines is 12 for all, but contacts with minors (under 18) are an offence if the minor consents to the act for money, gain or any other remuneration or as the result of an influence of any adult person.
In Portugal it is illegal to perform a sexual act with a minor between 14 and 16 years old "by taking advantage of their inexperience".
Although Thailand's age of consent is usually said to be 15, the laws can be interpreted to allow prosecution for sex with someone under 18.
Anal sex is illegal in Tonga regardless of age and gender.
In some U.S. states a lower age applies when the age gap between partners is small, or when the older partner is below a certain age (usually 18 or 21).
It is illegal for an American citizen or resident to have sex in another country with someone aged under 16, unless the age difference is less than 4 years, in which case the minimum age is 12.
Under some circumstances it is possible for members of the U.S. military to also be charged under state laws.
Disclaimer
We rely on the help of our readers to keep this table as accurate and up-to-date as possible. If you know that the age of consent in your country differs from that given above, and if you can supply good references to prove it, then please contact us. Please note that AVERT will not answer personal enquiries about age of consent.

This page is intended for educational purposes only and should not be used to inform personal decisions. If you are in any doubt about the age of consent law in your region then please seek expert legal advice.

http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

[Chimera]

Sadly mistaken Blue - your first assumption is incorrect. if yuh want to try your hand at logic.. the same god you and 'Doc toutin and spoutin bout would divinely intervene and then do what, put a Hindu woman in charge? how logical is that?

Hindus have 330,000 Gods (or so ive heard)

You feel one man onna cross is a match for that?

Hindu Gods> Whatever blue believes in.

[bluefete]

Sadly mistaken Blue - your first assumption is incorrect. if yuh want to try your hand at logic.. the same god you and 'Doc toutin and spoutin bout would divinely intervene and then do what, put a Hindu woman in charge? how logical is that?

Hindus have 330,000 Gods (or so ive heard)

You feel one man onna cross is a match for that?

Hindu Gods> Whatever blue believes in.

Back in the day, Moses went before the court of Pharaoh. Both sides knew the "arts". Long story short, Moses' snake ate up the snakes of the Egyptian Gods.

You keep missing the point. There is only one God and thus One creator of Men & Women. There are ma ny other pretenders to the throne starting with Lucifer.

[wagonrunner]

from........... http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=318223&start=30
love the part with humility

just in case

[bluefete]

but didnt Christ already die for your sins? How are you still a sinner?

Christ died to pave the way back to heaven for us and to be the intercessor between God and man.

Remember that when Jesus taught us the Lord's Prayer, he did not say, Our Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Christian Father, but Our Father, the God of ALL men and women.

The same goes for the night of his birth when the angels said to the shepherds - "Goodwill to ALL men" not the Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Christian men alone.

We are all sinners until we repent and do our best to refrain from sinning.

No I dont remember that, as I was not there, and neither were you or anyone you know.
You read that in a book.

If there was a section of the world, where in the sky at a certain time, you could read God's words or you can hear him talk from the heavens from 8-12pm (but not on fridays, cuz daz when he doz go out wid d hoes), then THAT would be proof I would be willing to accept.

Not what you read in a man made book.

My bad. Of course we were not there. Neither were we when our parents had sex and conceived us. But you are here and I am here. Is that not proof? What happens when we die? Does the fact that we are dead mean that we never existed? What proof would there be that we ever existed? Some old paper that someone wrote on saying that we were born at a certain time? Would that be proof of our existence? How about some family memeber in the distant future saying so? Would that be proof that we ever existed?

Come on ABA, you are skating now!!!

[wagonrunner]

Sadly mistaken Blue - your first assumption is incorrect. if yuh want to try your hand at logic.. the same god you and 'Doc toutin and spoutin bout would divinely intervene and then do what, put a Hindu woman in charge? how logical is that?

Hindus have 330,000 Gods (or so ive heard)

You feel one man onna cross is a match for that?

Hindu Gods> Whatever blue believes in.

Back in the day, Moses went before the court of Pharaoh. Both sides knew the "arts". Long story short, Moses' snake ate up the snakes of the Egyptian Gods.

You keep missing the point. There is only one God and thus One creator of Men & Women. There are ma ny other pretenders to the throne starting with Lucifer.

so you saying then, that your "one & true god", intervened, and put a person, who worships a "pretender to the throne", in charge of the nation?

and that's the basis for your best encounter, and proof of existence?

[bluefete]

Wagonrunner:

"...many shall run to & fro & knowledge shall be increased"! (Daniel 12:4)

[Sky]

Blue said something about someone warning Manning about listening to the people.
That's his testimony on it. But I think that's as physical, logical and Earthly as telling a child don't put their hand in a hot pot, and when they do, they get burnt.
Everyone was fedup of Manning's movements. He'd do what he want and not listen to the people. At the end of the day their voice matter, and when he didn't listen to their voices they spoke with their fingers. Simple as that. A 12 year old coulda tell Manning that.
I dunno why bluefete clinging onto simple logic to defend God. Blue you're being retarded, change the thread name.

If my logic is so simple, why is it so difficult for you to understand?

Not did I only NOT have difficulty understanding your 'logic', I created a scenario matching your logic to show that is has nothing to do with God just because some self proclaimed "person of God" spoke to Manning. I understand your logic and I deem it very flawed. lol God made Manning lose because he didn't listen to him? NO tard, THE PEOPLE made Manning lose because he didn't listen to THEM!

[Sky]

Sadly mistaken Blue - your first assumption is incorrect. if yuh want to try your hand at logic.. the same god you and 'Doc toutin and spoutin bout would divinely intervene and then do what, put a Hindu woman in charge? how logical is that?

Hindus have 330,000 Gods (or so ive heard)

You feel one man onna cross is a match for that?

Hindu Gods> Whatever blue believes in.

This is also retarded.

[Razkal]

y'all fail to realise the foresight them indians had...hinduism is like a iPhone...

death and destruction? there's a god for that..
creation and parsad? there's a god for that..
red saris and pedal pushers? there's a god for that..
bobolee character? there's a god for that.. (altho getting tacked to a cross is a hard one to top eh)
doh study and pass exam? there's a god for that sheit too mu'h f*cker

them swamis have deities on the bench getting NO sweat all kinda thing..

[bluefete]

Sadly mistaken Blue - your first assumption is incorrect. if yuh want to try your hand at logic.. the same god you and 'Doc toutin and spoutin bout would divinely intervene and then do what, put a Hindu woman in charge? how logical is that?

Hindus have 330,000 Gods (or so ive heard)

You feel one man onna cross is a match for that?

Hindu Gods> Whatever blue believes in.

Back in the day, Moses went before the court of Pharaoh. Both sides knew the "arts". Long story short, Moses' snake ate up the snakes of the Egyptian Gods.

You keep missing the point. There is only one God and thus One creator of Men & Women. There are ma ny other pretenders to the throne starting with Lucifer.

so you saying then, that your "one & true god", intervened, and put a person, who worships a "pretender to the throne", in charge of the nation?

and that's the basis for your best encounter, and proof of existence?

~SIGHS~

Daniel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter1:

1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.

Chapter 2
1 And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.

2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream.

4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation.

5 The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me: if ye will not make known unto me the dream, with the interpretation thereof, ye shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made a dunghill.

6 But if ye shew the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me gifts and rewards and great honour: therefore shew me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.

7 They answered again and said, Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation of it.

8 The king answered and said, I know of certainty that ye would gain the time, because ye see the thing is gone from me.

9 But if ye will not make known unto me the dream, there is but one decree for you: for ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me, till the time be changed: therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that ye can shew me the interpretation thereof.

10 The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean.

11 And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.

12 For this cause the king was angry and very furious, and commanded to destroy all the wise men of Babylon.

13 And the decree went forth that the wise men should be slain; and they sought Daniel and his fellows to be slain.

14 Then Daniel answered with counsel and wisdom to Arioch the captain of the king's guard, which was gone forth to slay the wise men of Babylon:

15 He answered and said to Arioch the king's captain, Why is the decree so hasty from the king? Then Arioch made the thing known to Daniel.

16 Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would shew the king the interpretation.

17 Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions:

18 That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.

19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.

Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.

24 Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation.

25 Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation.

26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?

27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;

28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.

30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

48 Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.

49 Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach , and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.

Chapter 3
1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.

2 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

3 Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up.

4 Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,

5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:

6 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.

7 Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

8 Wherefore at that time certain Chaldeans came near, and accused the Jews.

9 They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever.

10 Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image:

11 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.

12 There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach , and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

13 Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king.

14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?

15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.

17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach , and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.

20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.

21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flames of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

29 Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.

30 Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the province of Babylon.

Chapter 4
1 Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.

2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.

3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

4 I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace:

5 I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me.

6 Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream.

7 Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.

8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,

9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.

11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

12 The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.

13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:

15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:

16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.

19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.

20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;

21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:

22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:

25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.



WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT???

[bluefete]

but when I die in faith through Christ I go straight to heaven

This is not as easy and one thinks.....
I remember hearing a sermon a couple months ago in which because you are saved and baptised, doesnt mean you are automatically going to heaven.
You must live your life in alignment with God's teachings, follow his commandments and seek his forgiveness about your shortcomings and sins......
On judgement day, you would have to answer to Almighty God for all the sins you committed and why you lived your life the way and manner in which you did......

Firstly where exactly in the bible says we are going to heaven when we die ? Eccl 9:5 says " The living are concious that they will die but the dead are concious of nothing at all".

John11:11-14- When Lazarus died and Jesus resurrected him...he did not come back to life and talk about heaven or hell...for him he was in a deep sleep which is y i was curious as where exactly did the bible tells us we are going to heaven when we die.

We go to heaven after judgment day. You are quite correct when you say the dead know nothing. However, they will be resurrected spiritually to be judged.

Note however that when Jesus died he went and preached to the dead so that they also would have the gift of eternal life.

1 Pet 4:6 (KJV) "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Lost Gospel of Peter Verse 10: "And as they declared what things they had seen, again they see three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them:

and of the two the head reached unto the heaven, but the head of him who was lead by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, Thou hast preached to them that sleep.

And a response was heard from the cross, Yea."

[bluefete]

^ knockin on heaven's door?
that is a modern belief, the pearly white gates.

how are we so sure that it's not really a Flower Mountain as the Maya believed?

or as Pato stated, really just blankness, nothing, an eternal dreamless sleep into non-existence. Toyo and Megadoc1 and Bluefete might find that too scary to accept.

Not really. But a very specific promise of eternal life, where every tear is wiped away. Now Duane, where else do we get a promise like that?

[illumin@ti]

^^^^ blue .... really.. im tryin to get you to speak with me, reason as it were on a human level and not try to beat me with the bible. The bible has no answer to the question that i asked you. Simply put YOU seem to be the pretender here.. Why make a statement like that and allude it to divine intervention? As Sky sed, DEMOCRACY worked and the people voted him out.

What's God got to do with that?

Oh snap,,, wait,,,, you'll ascribe that to him also right? yeah, i can see it now, god spoke to the people and made them vote.. Blue, seriously, yuh need to stop running back to the book to prove your words.

In this thread i have seen you and the mad Doc bawlin bout 'my god is a jealous god, rah rah rah, serve no other before him, rah rah' and then u say that all other 'religions are false, and there is one true god..... OK then you berate all other religions ad nauseum. Now you would have us believe that the PM, having taken oath of office while swearing on the Bhagwad Geeta - last i recall that makes her Hindu... Is the proclaimed device of deliverance from Manning's evil..??

Just how many times must you contradict yourself? Or is your faith really that convenient? and your belief that vacuous? Do you really know how many times you twisted and turned in this thread? I mean ,,, Wagonrunner asked you the same thing im asking ,, WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN THAT STATEMENT?? and more importantly how can u use that as proof ?

[bluefete]

Well again in the bible it says:

Gen 3:19 "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return". This was after Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of eden and god spoke to them. The verse tells us that we will return to where we were taken from initially -the earth, it doesn't say that your soul will go to heaven or to hell.

So now i'm wondering what exactly does the bible teach about the dead ? where are the dead ? Again the bible clearly states and compares death to a deep sleep just as Lazarus when he died.

What happens to those who sleep? Do they not awake at some time? The dead are "asleep' until the day of judgment when we "shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible.


1 Corinthians 15 (King James Version)

1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


King James Version (KJV)

Even Jesus said that the little girl was not dead but asleep. The people laughed at him when he said so.

[MG Man]

logic??
you ask for logic from the man??????????????
bess you ask a homeless man to buy u a box ah KFC

[bluefete]

^^^^ blue .... really.. im tryin to get you to speak with me, reason as it were on a human level and not try to beat me with the bible. The bible has no answer to the question that i asked you. Simply put YOU seem to be the pretender here.. Why make a statement like that and allude it to divine intervention? As Sky sed, DEMOCRACY worked and the people voted him out.

What's God got to do with that?

Oh snap,,, wait,,,, you'll ascribe that to him also right? yeah, i can see it now, god spoke to the people and made them vote.. Blue, seriously, yuh need to stop running back to the book to prove your words.

In this thread i have seen you and the mad Doc bawlin bout 'my god is a jealous god, rah rah rah, serve no other before him, rah rah' and then u say that all other 'religions are false, and there is one true god..... OK then you berate all other religions ad nauseum. Now you would have us believe that the PM, having taken oath of office while swearing on the Bhagwad Geeta - last i recall that makes her Hindu... Is the proclaimed device of deliverance from Manning's evil..??

Just how many times must you contradict yourself? Or is your faith really that convenient? and your belief that vacuous? Do you really know how many times you twisted and turned in this thread? I mean ,,, Wagonrunner asked you the same thing im asking ,, WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN THAT STATEMENT?? and more importantly how can u use that as proof ?

Go and read about Nebuchadnezzar. That is why I posted the writing somewhere above.

God works through people, as well. So we voted and Manning lost. Logical enough, right? No divine intervention there, right? Riiiight!!!!

Agnostics expect God to thump them on the head and say, "Here I am"!!!

[Sky]

^^^^ blue .... really.. im tryin to get you to speak with me, reason as it were on a human level and not try to beat me with the bible. The bible has no answer to the question that i asked you. Simply put YOU seem to be the pretender here.. Why make a statement like that and allude it to divine intervention? As Sky sed, DEMOCRACY worked and the people voted him out.

What's God got to do with that?

Oh snap,,, wait,,,, you'll ascribe that to him also right? yeah, i can see it now, god spoke to the people and made them vote.. Blue, seriously, yuh need to stop running back to the book to prove your words.

In this thread i have seen you and the mad Doc bawlin bout 'my god is a jealous god, rah rah rah, serve no other before him, rah rah' and then u say that all other 'religions are false, and there is one true god..... OK then you berate all other religions ad nauseum. Now you would have us believe that the PM, having taken oath of office while swearing on the Bhagwad Geeta - last i recall that makes her Hindu... Is the proclaimed device of deliverance from Manning's evil..??

Just how many times must you contradict yourself? Or is your faith really that convenient? and your belief that vacuous? Do you really know how many times you twisted and turned in this thread? I mean ,,, Wagonrunner asked you the same thing im asking ,, WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN THAT STATEMENT?? and more importantly how can u use that as proof ?

Go and read about Nebuchadnezzar. That is why I posted the writing somewhere above.

God works through people, as well. So we voted and Manning lost. Logical enough, right? No divine intervention there, right? Riiiight!!!!

Agnostics expect God to thump them on the head and say, "Here I am"!!!

What the... I think he's calling us stupid. I think he's calling my common sense divine intervention.

ok here's a flow chart for you blue, cuz like words aint working....

Man gets in power > man does sh1t > people tell man to stop doing sh1t > man ignores people > people say well udfr if you can't listen and treating us like sh1t..

Now where did God have to intervene there? lol I guess everyone who got fired because they were bad at their job could blame God.