The Religion Discussion

[nismotrinidappa]

toyo,,,
this system appeals to me more and makes more sense to me than the trinity, where each man becomes accountable for his actions. this piece of logic amongst others.

"On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) 'Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith.' (The Noble Quran, 2:286)"

"And fear the Day when ye shall be brought back to God. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly. (The Noble Quran, 2:281)"

"But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is no doubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice? (The Noble Quran, 3:25)"

"On the Day when every soul will be confronted with all the good it has done, and all the evil it has done, it will wish there were a great distance between it and its evil. But God cautions you (To remember) Himself. And God is full of kindness to those that serve Him. (The Noble Quran, 3:30)"

"No prophet could (ever) be false to his trust. If any person is so false, He shall, on the Day of Judgment, restore what he misappropriated; then shall every soul receive its due,- whatever it earned,- and none shall be dealt with unjustly. (The Noble Quran, 3:161)"

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life): For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception. (The Noble Quran, 3:185)"

"If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks God's forgiveness, he will find God Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:110)" Allah Almighty forgives sins if we ask for forgiveness.

"And if any one earns sin. he earns it against His own soul: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom. (The Noble Quran, 4:111)"

"Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except God: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting God. (The Noble Quran, 6:70)"

"But those who believe and work righteousness,- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear,- they will be Companions of the Garden, therein to dwell (for ever). (The Noble Quran, 7:42)"

"Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it. (The Noble Quran, Noble Verses 99:7-8)"

this last quote was one of the first piece of logic i found out about... no body saving no body, just being accountable for ur choices

god doesnt abandon you.. he reaches out to you in different ways and through different people to help steer you and keep you on the right path. however it is up to you to listen.

[megadoc1]

:shock:
so megadoc outta all d oman in trini, you found one with thousands of demons???
any woman who have sex out of marriage,fete away in carnival,watch porn and even
having your future told by a psychic makes you a candidate for the demonic realm they come in your life and secretly manifest themselves. d phoq!! and allyuh fellas thought allyuh have it bad; demons versus a nag? Nag wins.
But thanks for the story eh meng ....cool

i dont intend to scare you but thats the truth
when we ask them how they get there, those are the answers we get.

[megadoc1]

now i understand megga a bit more.

eh ,, i will leave de man alone. He appears to be the exorcist. Ah wonder what demons he could rattle outta my cage boy ,<shrugs>

anyone who believes and trusts in christ
has this power sad thing is most people are afraid of demons
but we should not be afraid because if we watch porn we fellowship with them
if you steal you fellowship with them
have sex outside marriage you fellowship with them
so why fear them?

[nismotrinidappa]

megadoc1 what church do you/ did you attend? and what church was the pastor from?

[megadoc1]

megadoc1 what church do you/ did you attend? and what church was the pastor from?

[Sky]

megadoc1 You wanna share the details of your experience please?when i was about tell you ,you lock meh off but i will still do for your own sake I'm very interested to hear. Really.give me some time

Nah man doh study it; tuner unites us.
Just spill it.

For the last five years I was involved in a fornicative relationship with a girl from Tobago
Who ran away from home at a young age to live with me
But between 2008 to 2009 things was getting a bit rocky because I had real woman around me at the time. So she (my current girlfriend) started going to some church I didn’t really care at that time where She was going But the pastor at the church she went to revealed to her that there Were things operating in her life that she needs to get rid off (deliverance) but stupid me making mockery of it
there was one girl in particular from the US who will visit every year but this one time she got pregnant for me(I think she lied) and my child mother(another chick) on hearing so, called up my girlfriend and told her the news and this girl just blew. For two weeks straight demonic being started manifesting themselves telling me all sorts of stuff like …… “they want her to kill herself “ but I am in their way but at that time I didn’t understand what they meant but they were only repeating that ….I am in their way
“let her go back home so they can finish do what they were sent to do”… well I tort she gone mad and telling me them things but soon after she would return normal and calm (I was very afraid) a few days after she went to church and they prayed for her but told her they need to see me because it was very serious but I was like “hell no yuh wasn’t finding this *** in a church no time soon” so I turned them down. a few days before her date for deliverance she started experiencing tremendous pain but as soon as we reach the hospital, she is ok and all tests came up showing nothing and this cycle went on until the day for deliverance.
On the day of deliverance I went to pick her up and the pastor came out to see me he asked me to come inside but I told him “I am cool outside”, however he persuaded me to go in, after a lil while he ask me if I want him to pray for me and I was like “sure fix up” and he prayed and started casting out spirits of lusts, fornication and a whole lot of stuff and curses from my life, then he stopped and marveled a bit and asked “you serious” because the lord revealed to him who I am and he told me what is God’s will for my life, then he went on to tell me what was going on with my gf and that it was so serious that she needs to come back to complete it ,he also told me what to do whenever the demons manifest themselves again he showed me how they only subject themselves to the name of jesus and went on further to tell me try any other name that people call god and see for myself(because I was skeptical)
when they (the demons) did manifest themselves allah did not work, buddah ,never had a chance in fact the laughed at that one, I tried the others but when I said “Jesus” the demonic being looked at me serious and said “you don’t have enough faith” I repeated it this time saying “in the name of Jesus Christ son of the living God I bind you and rebuke you “ they went silent, I started asking them their name and stuff but they will lie or sometimes not answer but when I remind them that they are before God they submit themselves ,,, well from that point I felt like "superman" jed
on the day of deliverance we cast out thousands of demons from this girl they were like four kingdoms with demonic beings from all those religions that people called gods in Trinidad. Her aunt from Tobago was orisha and she attended a feast and ate so she was cursed, plus her aunt did not like her and never wanted her to succeed in life, cursed her school books and her mind so she cannot learn and cursed her womb so she cant have children, cursed her mind so she can go mad and kill herself(before God the demons do tell how they got there who sent them and what they did to get them there) , her grandmother seek the service of obeah men so she was cursed for that too (yes just consulting evildoers will result in a curse)her grandmother also seek the service of a pundit so she was cursed for that and each one of these curse caused her or the family to do something to bring on more curses in her life
anyways for seven hours I witnessed a lot of demons being cast out into the pits of hell one after the other and many of them are considered as gods or are the product of so called gods in Trinidad and Tobago I am glad to report that all of these curses where broken in the name of Jesus. There is so much more to this but it is too much to post plus a lot of people will be offended but if anyone of you think it is false All I can say to you is come and see for yourselves or come and prove God wrong
Tuner church lime anyone?

Or hor, so thas why yuh think Baptist people evil lol. Her aunt will go blind before she dies for her deeds, don't worry. When baptists go bad (Orisa) that happens to them. Why? because they don't believe in God, they KNOW for sure there is a god and they turn to evil. (Sorta like a jedi turning to the dark side) So there's a special punishment for them. If you hear about ANY baptist going blind for no reason in their old age, the mark buss that they had their hand in evil.
I call bs on the "considered as gods" part tho.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

so who here got abducted by aliens?

[Sky]

Abraham had a son with the maid, Hagar. It was his 1st son. His wife, Sarah then had Issac for him.
Hagar started to show Sarah a bad face and tried to pull rank on her. She went to Abraham and told him Sarah was treating her bad and to deal with her. Abraham told Sarah to deal with HER maid. God came to Abraham and told him that Issac is the promised seed, and listen to his wife. So he gave Hagar some food and tell her udfr.

Hagar and Ishmael were suffering in the desert and she thought they were gonna die. She put him in one corner and went in the opposite corner because she didn't want to see her son die. An angel came to her and told her to go back home and humble herself to Sarah, and she did. The same angel told Ishmael that his line would become nations upon nations, and that they would conquer many.

Ishmael's line bacame muslims, and Issac's line WAS the promised seeds, with names such as David and the man himself, Jesus. Ishmael is mentioned in the bible and Issac is mentioned in the Q'uran (thas how you does spell it?) These two religions fight constantly to this day, but I will call billions of them stupid.
And anyone who don't think God = Allah, they real daft.

As I said, I know the bible, but the king james version is not to be trusted.
Jesus also visited India and Tibet, so don't judge the Hindus and Buddhists so quickly.
Matthew and company didn't mention Jesus going there because that wasn't their business, but there is literature saying that he went. A russian even went to tibet and found literature in a temple about them having a visitor that spoke wise words to them. The words he told them matched what Jesus preached. When they carbon dated the diaries that claimed this, guess what, they were about 2000 years old
Allyuh wanted input? Look input. Go ahead and tell me I'm a demon, this one and that one are demons.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ how did Jesus reach to India and Tibet?

[toyo682]

you realise allyuh talking more about demons than God.
That's like saying the proof that the Police doing a great job is because of all the crime it have around... but they dealing with it one by one, yuh just hadda believe in the police and they will help you.

If the police was really doing a good job then there would be no crime to talk about!

PS I am assuming you are Muslim, so tell me what you think about this article about Allah being the moon god..http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

that's an untruthful article
I wouldn't trust anything from that site if that is the kind of uneducated religious propaganda they are publishing

if that is the kind of things you read and believe then I can understand why you believe what you believe.

what about this site ?
http://www.carm.org/islam

that is no better than this
www.alislam.org/library/books/true-christianity-leads-to-islam

stop being biased, wearing blinkers and comforting yourself by reading a Christian website to learn about Islam or any other religion.

Read the Qu'ran and Hadith if you want to learn about Islam.
Read the Torah or the entire Tanakh if you want to learn about Judaism.
Read the 18 chapters of the Bhagavad Gita if you want to start to learn about Hinduism.

and for crying out loud stop using circular logic to prove your points!

Thanks for the info, I will check out Islam on this Islamic website.

[toyo682]

toyo,,,
this system appeals to me more and makes more sense to me than the trinity, where each man becomes accountable for his actions. this piece of logic amongst others.

"On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) 'Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith.' (The Noble Quran, 2:286)"

"And fear the Day when ye shall be brought back to God. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly. (The Noble Quran, 2:281)"

"But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is no doubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice? (The Noble Quran, 3:25)"

"On the Day when every soul will be confronted with all the good it has done, and all the evil it has done, it will wish there were a great distance between it and its evil. But God cautions you (To remember) Himself. And God is full of kindness to those that serve Him. (The Noble Quran, 3:30)"

"No prophet could (ever) be false to his trust. If any person is so false, He shall, on the Day of Judgment, restore what he misappropriated; then shall every soul receive its due,- whatever it earned,- and none shall be dealt with unjustly. (The Noble Quran, 3:161)"

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life): For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception. (The Noble Quran, 3:185)"

"If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks God's forgiveness, he will find God Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:110)" Allah Almighty forgives sins if we ask for forgiveness.

"And if any one earns sin. he earns it against His own soul: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom. (The Noble Quran, 4:111)"

"Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except God: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting God. (The Noble Quran, 6:70)"

"But those who believe and work righteousness,- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear,- they will be Companions of the Garden, therein to dwell (for ever). (The Noble Quran, 7:42)"

"Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it. (The Noble Quran, Noble Verses 99:7-8)"

this last quote was one of the first piece of logic i found out about... no body saving no body, just being accountable for ur choices

Smash it is kinda of hard to defend your beliefs without referring to the Qur'an isn't it. But no scene I understand it is the same for Christianity.

But I was wondering if you could explain something to me that I saw on this Islamic website that Duane kindly pointed me to where it concerns Muhammad. http://www.alislam.org/books/in-bible/index.html

This is what they said,We Muslims believe that Jesus was a true prophet of God. We also accept his advent as having been foretold in the previous scriptures.

But what about Muhammad?

We find that his coming was foretold in clear and precise terms not only by Jesus himself but by Moses and other Biblical prophets as well. In fact it seems from whatever words of Jesus are available to the world, that the bringing of glad tidings of a great coming prophet was one of the chief objects of his mission.

Again and again Jesus said that he was sent to the world only to give as much guidance as the people of his own time could bear. As for complete teaching which would stay forever with mankind, he said:

But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14-26)

Only the prophet of Islam could have fulfilled this prophecy of Jesus. Muhammad was truly sent in his name because he bore testimony to his truth.

Now they are claiming that Muhammad fulfilled the prophecy of Jesus in John 14:26. As one reads the verse it is clear that the coming comforter's is the Holy Spirit, not another prophet. And also the Father was sending the comforter in the name of Jesus.

And this is the greek of the verse,

John 14:26 o de paraklētos to Pneuma to Agion o pempsei o patēr en tō onomati mou ekeinos ymas didaxei panta kai ypomnēsei ymas panta a eipon ymin

or
26 ο δε παρακλητος το Πνευμα το Αγιον ο πεμψει ο πατηρ εν τω ονοματι μου εκεινος υμας διδαξει παντα και υπομνησει υμας παντα α ειπον υμιν
Newberry, T., & Berry, G. R. (2004). The interlinear literal translation of the Greek New Testament (Jn 14:26). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.


The word Pneuma is where the translation Holy Spirit come from. Note how it has been translated through out scripture


4460 pneuma (pneuma), atos (atos), to (to): n.neu.; ≡ DBLHebr 8120; Str 4151; TDNT 6.332—1. LN 12.18 Holy Spirit (Mk 1:12); 2. LN 12.33 spirit, non material being (Jn 4:24; Ac 23:8); 3. LN 12.37 evil spirit (Mt 8:16); 4. LN 12.42 ghost (Lk 24:37, 39); 5. LN 26.9 inner being, non material faculty that can respond to God (Ac 17:16; Eph 5:9 v.r.); 6. LN 30.6 way of thinking, attitude, disposition (Gal 6:1); 7. LN 14.4 wind (Jn 3:8); 8. LN 23.186 breath (2Th 2:8), note: see LN index for a fuller treatment of the lexical units.

It can never refer to a physical being such as Muhammad, it always refers to spirit or wind. etc.

Also if Jesus was a true prophet do prophets lie, what about his other claims that he is God and before Abraham, or that no one comes to the Father but through him. And if Muhammad was the greater prophet why did Jesus come through the virgin birth and not Muhammad.

These are just some questions I have from reading, I would really like to understand more if I am to believe.

[illumin@ti]

^ how did Jesus reach to India and Tibet?

FedEx Duane...... Duhhh!!

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

you realise allyuh talking more about demons than God.
That's like saying the proof that the Police doing a great job is because of all the crime it have around... but they dealing with it one by one, yuh just hadda believe in the police and they will help you.

If the police was really doing a good job then there would be no crime to talk about!

PS I am assuming you are Muslim, so tell me what you think about this article about Allah being the moon god..http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

that's an untruthful article
I wouldn't trust anything from that site if that is the kind of uneducated religious propaganda they are publishing

if that is the kind of things you read and believe then I can understand why you believe what you believe.

what about this site ?
http://www.carm.org/islam

that is no better than this
www.alislam.org/library/books/true-christianity-leads-to-islam

stop being biased, wearing blinkers and comforting yourself by reading a Christian website to learn about Islam or any other religion.

Read the Qu'ran and Hadith if you want to learn about Islam.
Read the Torah or the entire Tanakh if you want to learn about Judaism.
Read the 18 chapters of the Bhagavad Gita if you want to start to learn about Hinduism.

and for crying out loud stop using circular logic to prove your points!

Thanks for the info, I will check out Islam on this Islamic website.

I didn't suggest that site to learn about Islam
re-read what I wrote

I am not defending any religion, each one has it's beliefs and you cannot use one to explain or denounce another.
You also cannot understand another religion if you are not willing to let go of what you have believed before. But therein lies the problem for you, bluefete, megadoc1 etc: you only see and hear what you want to see and hear and you conform it around what you want to believe.

its so bad that bluefete has cried down churches and religious leaders and picks and chooses what he wants to believe.

all I am reading from him is incoherence.

take off your blinders and maybe then you will see what lola and illuminati are saying to you

[Sky]

^ how did Jesus reach to India and Tibet?

[toyo682]

[/quote]

I didn't suggest that site to learn about IslamIf figure this much, I understand what you were saying and that it is not right that we should study Islam from going to a Christian website, nor should anyone study Christianity by going to a Islamic website.
re-read what I wrote

I am not defending any religion, each one has it's beliefs and you cannot use one to explain or denounce another.But we need to compare. this is a matter of eternity
You also cannot understand another religion if you are not willing to let go of what you have believed before.I disagree, understanding can come from study. Well you have to give me reason to do so, that only makes sense. My beliefs if you have not catch it are not solely based in the Bible says, but through experiencing of what it says, I have tested its beliefs to be true. But therein lies the problem for you, bluefete, megadoc1 etc: you only see and hear what you want to see and hear and you conform it around what you want to believe.Answer me this question which I have asked and no one seems to want to answer, I realize you are a man who seem to like fairness. How can there be several truths for one thing. Take for example salvation, or going to heaven. If you believe that there are many ways explain how this is fair logically. Where is the fairness in God revealing himself several ways, so now I can through the revelation of Jesus go to heaven based on faith, but a Muslim must do enough good works, how does he know when he has done enough, what if he thinks he has, only to die and find out he hasn't because he does not know what he is aiming for. How about the woman in India who throws her baby into the Ganges River so that her god can forgive her, how is that fair to her or her innocent baby, since many like to clamor about the innocent. How does the Buddhist know when he achieves Nirvana, until then he is stuck here, but when I die in faith through Christ I go straight to heaven. How is this fair Duane answer me please? God has made several paths but all have different weights on them. If then we have the choice to choose, why not choose the easier one?

its so bad that bluefete has cried down churches and religious leaders and picks and chooses what he wants to believe.Your problem with bluefete is just that leave me out of it

all I am reading from him is incoherence.

take off your blinders and maybe then you will see what lola and illuminati are saying to youLola and illuminati have not said much concerning me, in fact so far I believe they have only raised concern about one thing I said, if that is how they feel about me they have not stated it to me. Duane maybe you should take off your blinders and see the not everyone is a religious fanatic which you are trying to make me seem like. I am sure this is shape by your beliefs, so maybe you should take your own advice.[/quote]

[sMASH]

with respect to my quotes, it was done to show why i dont follow christianity as opposed to islam; those specific quotes offer something more rational, but i will not say absolutely rational.

wrt the prophecies, do we have all recorded, i would say no. do we have most, i would believe that is no. do we have some, i would venture some. but then the authenticity of those recordings, as there have been much translations over the times, which may have come from recordings which were second hand accounts of stories being heard, which were passed down from other translations.... i can not easily prove that as u cannot easily disprove it.
i dont think we have all even most, even if they were recorded.

now, the comforter. i always knew about the it referring to the comforter and some times spirit of truth,, which was convenient for me. but u now showing me that it greek, ( i dont know greek nor hebrew as i have been proven somewhere around pg 40 or so) that it is pneuma, and from latin, could associate that with air or gas,, so stretch it to be spirit, which would make it more like the spirit of truth as i would want, and spirit as u would want.
it is just that the translated comforter was used, now if holy spirit was intended, how can it be stretched to comforter, unless the word comforter has a literary connection.
i think that if holy spirit was intended, it would have been used ever since, but is only in recent updates u getting the holy spirit, and when a studious christian looking at the earliest manuscripts, they would come across pneuma, and say 'wow, look spirit' and conclude that it directly means spirit. when all the time for ages the reproducers felt it more appropriate or accurate to put comforter as opposed to holy spirit.

all of that is playing with semantics...

then there is;
"And the Lord said onto me, they have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy 18:17-18)

from your books, it is told that moses (pbuh) was told this, that god would send a prophet. most christians think that it is jesus (pbuh) who is referred to here. but i dont think so.
if it is really jesus (pbuh), why refer to him as a prophet? if jesus is supposed to be god/son of, it should have been something different. a prophet is like a representative of god, bringing a message to a people on behalf of god. so according to ur belief mechanism, god could not have been a representative for himself,,, because he was in his actual capacity.

then u go to to the part of 'from among their brethren'. popular chiristians interpret that to mean from among the israelites them selves. but then their is the word brethren. why is it necessary to make a point of brothers, siblings? when it is easier to have placed yourselves, or thou or thine selves. this means that it is not them, but related.
then the word before brethren, 'their'. the israelites are collectively placed in a single group as one, and then reference is made to their brethren. so who is the brethren of the israelites, the descendants of isaac (pbuh), ishmael(pbuh). and jesus (pbuh) is a descendant of isaac (pbuh).

i will jump to the part 'i will put my words in his mouth'. this should not be important while all the prophets were supposed to be delivering the word of god to every one. this is significant because it did not say something like deliver my message. it really closely means that some one will just be talking to the people, something oral. islam teaches that the last prophet, muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate. some people find that hard to believe since he was supposed to be so intelligent, a great businessman, a great warrior, a great politician etc. but today we know that people can be intelligent and still not be able to process written words, for example dyslexia. i am not suggesting that he had dyslexia, as i have no evidence, even supposition evidence to that effect. i am just saying it is quite possible to be intelligent and not be able to read nor write.
what does that all mean,,, that he was going to talk out the messages from god. when he was given a revelation, he memorized it and had it dictated.

then there is ' speak to them all that i command'. this one is not so strong to me, but i will post it any way. the use of the word all, could suggest complete or final, then the word command, like instructions or directions. islam is known as a way of life, most other religions are referred to as that, but this also tells u how to do things with more specifications and not so generalized as many others. there are too many to post,

then we come back to like onto moses(pbuh).
we have to compare moses to jesus and muhammad (pbut):
-moses and muhammad had normal births, jesus was different, and also spoke in the cradle
-moses and muhammad married and had children, jesus did not
-moses and muhammad died normally, awaiting judgement day, jesus did not die, normally (leave dat right there)
-moses and muhammed were prophets and had direct leadership over the people they came to, but jesus was only a prophet, and the jews over all did not accept him as a leader
-moses and muhammad were forced to migrate at some points in time, while jesus was not forced to migrate
-moses and muhammad were actually pursued and had to evade capture, while jesus did not evade capture
-moses an muhammad conflicts resulted in physical and moral outcomes, while jesus situations resulted more in moral victories
-moses and muhammad revelations were recorded within their life times, jesus' were recorded after
-moses and muhammad were rejected and then accepted over all by the people they came to while jesus was not accepted generally by the people he came to
(pbut)


now the virgin birth.
the beginning of jesus (pbuh) in islam is used to explains god's ultimate power. where the conception was jesus(pbuh) was merely a word from god, for him to create, he merely has to say be, and it is. in christianity it is explained in luke 1:35 as the angel in the male figure saying that the ghost will come upon then and the spirit overshadowing mary, in the desert alone, which is some what pg 13. islam has the words a little more all ages.
jesus (pbuh) is referred to as the word of god, and in islam the start of jesus(pbuh) is used to demonstrate that gods power is so great that he just has to say words to start jesus.

if muhammad (pbuh) had a miraculous birth like that, he could have been interpreted as being a copy cat and/or wrongfully been assigned divinity by his followers. being charged with the last commandments, it was important that he be seen as a mere man with a human birth and death.


we are not supposed to worship the creations of god, but only god himself, alone
now, i reiterate that i am not an authority, and also not a scholar; just think about what i have come across in literature and orations..
i am subject to mistakes.. dont roast the message because of the messanger

[sMASH]

God has made several paths but all have different weights on them. If then we have the choice to choose, why not choose the easier one?

in my opinion, the problem is not with getting to heaven the easy way, because trinis always likes short cuts. the conundrums lies with the sins which was committed by all the different people. the go past jail card' scenario does not explain satisfactorily how a person could sin continuously and just go to heaven like the person who strove all through life to be faithful. it does not tie up loose ends. so some people would rather stay where they are.

when asked about the loose ends, u get answers like what megga posts, not addressing the specifics of the questions.

one asks megga why god lets the stray dogs suffer, and he replies asking who is more superior. what does megga interpret from his book about the stray dogs? the closest thing we got to an answer was that jesus came for man. which does not answer the question but it leads us to imagine sumthing. because he continuously neglect to provide answers we assume that there is no answer. then he would say research it urselves, but then we have not been provided any incentive to do so, but was rather crudely handled. other people would have been turned away, but is chuna, so dem, or rather we, would chook him as some responses do not synchronize with others.

[toyo682]

salvation, a term that has lost much of its original meaning in current English usage. In part, this may be due to overuse in former times, compounded by popular but imprecise application among various religious groups. Because of this, it is important to exercise care in exploring its range of meaning for the biblical writers. It is an extremely important term in the Bible; thus, further neglect can only lead to considerable theological loss.
The term for salvation in the O# can connote, in keeping with its root meaning of ‘broadening’ or ‘enlarging,’ the creation of space in the community for life and conduct. More often than not, this is created with divine help, particularly in circumstances where God’s people face an adversary (e.g., Exod. 14:13-14, 30; 15:2; 1 Sam. 7:8; 2 Sam. 22:28; 1 Chron. 16:35; Neh. 9:27; Pss. 7:1; 17:7; 18:1-3; 54:1; 59:1-2; 106:43-48; 116:1-6; 118:5-14). God rescues and delivers from the situation of opposition and peril to one of recovered spaciousness, prosperity, and well-being. This meaning of the term is expanded to include deliverance from other forms of conflict, particularly in matters of the people’s relationship to God. Such a field of reference draws on other terms such as ‘redemption,’ ‘atonement,’ ‘reconciliation,’ ‘pardon,’ ‘expiation’ (cf. also ‘peace’ and ‘righteousness’). The goal of such deliverance is the establishment of God’s reign among his people and the other nations of the world (e.g., Isa. 49:25-26; 52:6-10; 55:1-5; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-32; 37:23-28). Particularly the apocalyptic writings anticipate the arrival of this reign (e.g., Isa. 24-27).
The N# writers, apparently following the lead of Jesus himself, appropriate this specialized usage of salvation to designate the establishment of God’s end-time Reign. In doing so, they identify God’s intent to ‘save’/‘rescue’ (the meaning of the Greek root) with the person and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth (e.g., Luke 19:10; also 14:16-24; 15:3-10; 18:10-14; Matt. 10:6-8; 15:22-28; 18:12-14; 21:28-32). Jesus’ name comes from the Hebrew root meaning ‘salvation,’ and thus God the Savior and Jesus the Savior become (as in other ways) inextricably linked (e.g., Matt. 1:21; Luke 2:11; also John 4:42; Acts 5:31; 13:23; Phil. 3:20; 2 Tim. 1:10; Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6; 2 Pet. 1:1, 11; 2:20; 3:2, 18; 1 John 4:14).
The meaning of the term ‘gospel’ (‘good tidings’) is the essence of salvation (Rom. 1:16-17; 10:9-10). The traditions about Jesus record various accounts of Jesus’ acts of delivering people from forms of physical, spiritual/psychic, and demonic/cosmic bondage to a condition of restored wholeness and soundness (e.g., Mark 1:40-45; 2:1-12; 5:1-20, 34; 10:52; Luke 7:50; 17:19; John 9; 12:3-7). ‘Saved’ life is thereby seen in the context of a life that is ‘redeemed’ in relation to God, oneself, and others in community.
For these NT writers, the death and resurrection of Jesus is the ultimate focal moment for the dawn of salvation (e.g., 1 Cor. 15). Drawing on the sacrificial images and institutions of ancient Israel, early Christians associate Jesus’ death with that of the Passover lamb as ‘atonement’ (John 1:29, 36; 6:51; 1 Cor. 5:7; Heb. 9:24-26). The ‘on our behalf’ formula appropriates the efficacious significance of Jesus’ death for those who receive it by faith as a gift of grace (e.g., Mark 10:45; 1 Tim. 2:6; Titus 2:14; Mark 14:24 and parallels; 1 Cor. 15:3-7; Eph. 2:5, . It means ‘reconciliation’ (Rom. 5:1-11; 2 Cor. 5:18-20). It brings ‘regeneration’ and a new conscience/consciousness. It encompasses the whole cosmos (Rom. 8:19-23; Eph. 1:10; Col. 1:19-20). The resurrection points, moreover, not only to present significance (Rom. 13:11-14; 1 Cor. 15:1-2) but also to future deliverance from impending judgment and wrath (1 Thess. 1:9-10; also Mark 13 and parallels; Rom. 1:18-2:11; 5:9-11; Phil. 3:20; Titus 2:13).
The apocalyptic vision mentioned above (e.g., Isa. 24-27) is appropriated with certain qualifications to underscore the deliverance motif and that of life and well-being in the future Kingdom of God (e.g., Luke 13:28-30; 22:29-30; 23:43; 1 Cor. 2:9-10; 11:26; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; Rev. 21:1-22:5). Other traditions stress more the language of inheritance and the certainty of sharing the eternal life of Jesus’ resurrection (e.g., Rom. 8:12-17; 1 Thess. 5:9; Heb. 1:14; 5:9; 9:28; 1 Pet. 1:5, 9; also John 4:14; 7:37-38; 10:10). The emphasis remains throughout the NT on the exclusive nature of the connection between Jesus’ destiny and the promise of salvation (e.g., Acts 4:11-12; 5:31; Heb. 2:3). The consummation of salvation exceeds human ability to grasp it (1 Cor. 2:9-10); in the present, the gift of the Spirit is a foretaste of what is promised and hoped for (Rom. 8:23; 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14).#

Atonement, the means by which the guilt-punishment chain produced by violation of God’s will is broken, as well as the resulting state of reconciliation (‘at-onement’) with God. For most ancients, violation of the world order led to punishment by divine powers; only atonement could prevent or end such punishment. The character of atonement varied greatly, however, depending on concepts of the deity, human existence, and the order of violation.
The English word ‘atonement’ does not occur in the RS# (cf. Rom. 5:11: ‘atonement’ in the KJ#, ‘reconciliation’ in the RSV). The Hebrew word with which the concept of atonement is associated in the O# can be translated variously as ‘purge,’ ‘cleanse,’ ‘expiate,’ ‘purify,’ ‘wipe on or off,’ ‘cover,’ etc. The Septuagint (LX#) Greek equivalent was of influence for the language and thought of the NT.
The OT viewed a number of offerings and sacrifices as atoning. The best known were the elaborate sacrificial/priestly rites of atonement developed mainly in the postexilic period. Basic to their development was the OT view of God: God was the faithful, holy covenant partner to his people; he provided the means of atonement when the sanctuary or the land became defiled, or when the people were unfaithful. God did not need appeasement; rather, atonement removed the sinful barrier to the covenantal relationship. The rites of atonement were carried out by the high priest through prescribed sacrifices in the Temple. Covenant renewal and restoration were connected to the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16). Atonement was anything but routine and automatic (Pss. 40; 51:15-17). For early Judaism, the atonement base was broadened to include the sacrifice of martyrs whose achievements were calculated and deemed meritorious for others (e.g., 4 Macc. 6:28-29; 17:20-24).
In the N#, atonement is linked conclusively to the ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus. According to early traditions in the first three (‘synoptic’) gospels, Jesus may have understood his destiny in atoning terms (Mark 10:45b; 14:24; cf. Isa. 53; Exod. 32:30-32). Early Christian thought developed this and other OT backgrounds. For Paul, for example, the location and source of God’s mercy, namely Jesus Christ, was central (KJV: ‘mercy seat,’ RSV: ‘expiation’; Rom. 3:25). For Hebrews, the central image was that of the high priest (Heb. 2:17; 4:14-5:10; 10:19-21; cf. Lev. 16; Ps. 110:1-4). Early appropriation of an intercessory ‘on-our-behalf’ traditional formula enhanced this development of seeing in Jesus the locus of atonement (1 Cor. 15:3). Atonement as ‘redemption’ (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; Gal. 3:13; 4:5) may have other backgrounds beside those of the OT (Exod. 4:22-23; 21:30; 30:16; Num. 35:31-33). Unlike other NT writings, Luke-Acts makes little use of atonement concepts#

Justification, the exculpation of guilt or the demonstration of the correctness of an act or statement. ‘Justification’ and its related terms ‘just,’ ‘justly,’ ‘justify’ help to render the Hebrew ṣdq and the Greek dikaioō (altogether the two words occur in the Bible about seven hundred and fifty times). These concepts are more frequently expressed in English Bibles by the term ‘righteousness’ and its related forms. Translation by means of the English word ‘justification’ comes through the Vulgate’s justitia. The Latin verb justificare added the sense of ‘make just,’ though the Hebrew regularly meant ‘declare just.’ The two concepts relate, as at Rom. 3:26 where Christ’s death demonstrates that God ‘is righteous and that he justifies’ one who believes in Jesus.
O# uses reflect the human desire to justify oneself (Job 32:2; 33:32; Isa. 43:9) or show one is ‘in the right.’ When applied to God (Job 32:2; Ps. 51:4), they raise the question of theodicy or justifying the ways of God to human beings. The OT insists God ‘is just in all his ways’ (Ps. 145:17) and asks, ‘How can a person be just before God?’ (Job 9:2). It knows the complaint that ‘the way of the Lord is not just’ (Ezek. 18:25, 29) but replies God will judge nonetheless (33:17, 20). The eventual answer is not that love or mercy triumphs over righteousness but that righteousness is seen as having a saving dimension (Isa. 51:1, 5, 6, 8, RS#: ‘deliverance’). God who saves is the one who justifies (Rom. 8:33; cf. Isa. 50:8, ‘vindicates’).
Early Jewish Christians confessed that Jesus was put to death ‘for our trespasses’ and raised ‘for our justification’ (Rom. 4:25) and that we are ‘justified…in Christ Jesus…by his blood’ (Rom. 3:24-25). They further confessed that when ‘the Son was made sin’ (perhaps a ‘sin offering,’ 2 Cor. 5:21) it demonstrated God’s righteousness while at the same time showing that sinners are justified by faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:26).
Paul deepened this idea of justification through faith ‘apart from works of the law’ (Rom. 3:28) and applied it to non-Jews (Gal. 3:8) as well as Jews (Rom. 3:30), on the basis of Abraham’s experience (Rom. 4). The universality of justification is shown by comparing Christ with Adam: Adam’s trespass brought condemnation for all, whereas Christ’s act of ‘righteousness’ brings justification or acquittal and life to all. Thus sinners are ‘made [declared, established as] righteous’ (Rom. 5:16-21). God ‘justifies the ungodly’ who trust him (Rom. 4:5); they receive peace and life in the Spirit (Rom. 5:1; 8:4). The ethical aspects of justification emphasize ‘whatever is just’ (Phil. 4:8).
James speaks of justification (2:24-25), not in opposition to Paul but against people who fail to understand that faith includes obedience (Rom. 1:5) to God beyond creedal assent.

# OT Old Testament
# NT New Testament
# Achtemeier, P. J., Harper & Row, P., & Society of Biblical Literature. (1985). Harper's Bible dictionary. Includes index. (1st ed.) (894). San Francisco: Harper & Row.
# RSV Revised Standard Version
# KJV King James Version
# OT Old Testament
# LXX Septuagint
# NT New Testament
# Achtemeier, P. J., Harper & Row, P., & Society of Biblical Literature. (1985). Harper's Bible dictionary. Includes index. (1st ed.) (80). San Francisco: Harper & Row.
# OT Old Testament
# RSV Revised Standard Version
# Achtemeier, P. J., Harper & Row, P., & Society of Biblical Literature. (1985). Harper's Bible dictionary. Includes index. (1st ed.) (520). San Francisco: Harper & Row.

[toyo682]

The blood of Christ does not give us right to sin and those who hold creeds such as 'Sex is a sin, sins are forgiven....' are seriously misguided. I try not to sin, with all my heart, but I am a man. God sees this that is why a sacrifice was made once and for all, so that every time we don't have to make a sacrifice of our own. For example the Bible talks about lust being a sin, which many men are hopeless to do. As I saw one person write how can God punishment for something he programmed me to do. Well God did not program you with lust, maybe the attraction for women, eg. You see a woman and think she is beautiful, that is no sin, but lust takes it further and you have sexual thoughts. Sin is rebellion to the laws of God, it breaks the law and takes it further. Sins are often perversions of some sort. That being said God knows we are hopeless to abstain from sin and could never make enough sacrifices to atone not appease sin. Breaking of Laws demands justice and only one who is righteous can carry out justice. That is what gives God the right He is righteous. So does the blood of Christ make it easy to sin, no, true repentance is a turning away. It comes down to a heart matter, saying God forgive me does not take away your sin, if there is not an inward change. You need to repent and turn away from it. Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Answer me this question which I have asked and no one seems to want to answer, I realize you are a man who seem to like fairness. How can there be several truths for one thing. Take for example salvation, or going to heaven. If you believe that there are many ways explain how this is fair logically. Where is the fairness in God revealing himself several ways, so now I can through the revelation of Jesus go to heaven based on faith, but a Muslim must do enough good works, how does he know when he has done enough, what if he thinks he has, only to die and find out he hasn't because he does not know what he is aiming for. How about the woman in India who throws her baby into the Ganges River so that her god can forgive her, how is that fair to her or her innocent baby, since many like to clamor about the innocent. How does the Buddhist know when he achieves Nirvana, until then he is stuck here, but when I die in faith through Christ I go straight to heaven. How is this fair Duane answer me please? God has made several paths but all have different weights on them. If then we have the choice to choose, why not choose the easier one?

you are so far off target it's a shame
The Qu'ran does not state that a Muslim must do a certain amount of good to be accepted into heaven. It does mention that one of the paths is that your good deeds should outweigh your sins. They also believe in various levels of heaven and hell.

I don't know where you got that idea about a Hindu mother killing her child for forgiveness but that is not a common practice any more than a christian sacrificing his own son a la Abraham or inflicting wounds on himself a la Opus Dei rumours. You having those thoughts just proves to me that you perpetuate a warped perception of other religions to justify your own beliefs as sane.

to answer your question though:
my answer is "EXACTLY!!! you cannot know!"
Humanity has derived various explanations for these questions through religious and personal beliefs all geared towards comforting one's self. There is NO proof that one religion is right and the other is wrong, short of what YOU choose to believe yourself and what makes you feel comfortable, which is why some ppl convert.

And that Sir is the hard and cold truth. Some people can deal with it and some cant, some need to understand the universe around them through science, some need to give the church 10% of their salary, some need to fast and pray, some need to dress a certain way, some need to go on a pilgrimage, some need to smoke something to communicate with their ancestors. Its called religious beliefs and it's a human thing. Deal with it.

[Aaron 2NR]

but when I die in faith through Christ I go straight to heaven



This is not as easy and one thinks.....
I remember hearing a sermon a couple months ago in which because you are saved and baptised, doesnt mean you are automatically going to heaven. Then anyone can get saved and live a life of sin and think they would go to heaven.
You must live your life in alignment with God's teachings, follow his commandments and seek his forgiveness about your shortcomings and sins......
On judgement day, you would have to answer to Almighty God for all the sins you committed and why you lived your life the way and manner in which you did......

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

and on another note
exorcisms have occurred in every single religion in every single language since the dawn of time. Each one has been done in the name of which ever God that religion believes in and the name of that God is usually whatever the word God is in that language. All are used as proof of the power of that God.

[illumin@ti]

dread ,, dont you see we are just plebs in the thread, it have men here playin Constantin and castin out demon and conductin exorcismsmsmsm and all kinda ting. we soft.

At the end of the day they all gonna be knockin at the same door beggin to get in. I should hope by then they wont be still arguing about who's the better and more worthy Christian. Only one thing i learned here from them.

Religious Fundamentalists are to stay far away from... lol

[pato]

but when I die in faith through Christ I go straight to heaven

This is not as easy and one thinks.....
I remember hearing a sermon a couple months ago in which because you are saved and baptised, doesnt mean you are automatically going to heaven.
You must live your life in alignment with God's teachings, follow his commandments and seek his forgiveness about your shortcomings and sins......
On judgement day, you would have to answer to Almighty God for all the sins you committed and why you lived your life the way and manner in which you did......

Firstly where exactly in the bible says we are going to heaven when we die ? Eccl 9:5 says " The living are concious that they will die but the dead are concious of nothing at all".

John11:11-14- When Lazarus died and Jesus resurrected him...he did not come back to life and talk about heaven or hell...for him he was in a deep sleep which is y i was curious as where exactly did the bible tells us we are going to heaven when we die.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ knockin on heaven's door?
that is a modern belief, the pearly white gates.

how are we so sure that it's not really a Flower Mountain as the Maya believed?

or as Pato stated, really just blankness, nothing, an eternal dreamless sleep into non-existence. Toyo and Megadoc1 and Bluefete might find that too scary to accept.

[illumin@ti]

^ knockin on heaven's door?
that is a modern belief, the pearly white gates.

how are we so sure that it's not really a Flower Mountain as the Maya believed?

or Valhalla.... where old viking gangsters cross the river to go on their burning ships, to drink ale and sully wenches ..

[pato]

Well again in the bible it says:

Gen 3:19 "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return". This was after Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of eden and god spoke to them. The verse tells us that we will return to where we were taken from initially -the earth, it doesn't say that your soul will go to heaven or to hell.

So now i'm wondering what exactly does the bible teach about the dead ? where are the dead ? Again the bible clearly states and compares death to a deep sleep just as Lazarus when he died.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Well again in the bible it says:

Gen 3:19 "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return". This was after Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of eden and god spoke to them. The verse tells us that we will return to where we were taken from initially -the earth, it doesn't say that your soul will go to heaven or to hell.

So now i'm wondering what exactly does the bible teach about the dead ? where are the dead ?

in the ground obviously

it doesn't say that your soul will go to heaven or to hell.

it doesnt talk about the Flower Mountain either

[pato]

^^^ Does the bible teach anything about a soul in the first place ?

[Chimera]

The question as to whether we get into Heaven or not depends what kinda grade Jesus get that day.