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Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 14th, 2011, 10:13 pm

sharkman121 wrote:wats the benefits of it again? :| why not jus set up a kalk dripper on a dosing pump. or is it just for the professionalism.




The difference between using kalk and calcium reactor


OK let's cover this subject of calcium with regard to co$t.

Calcium Chloride with a Buffer

Using calcium chloride in combination with buffer was probably the first method for maintaining calcium levels employed by most old reef hobbyists. Once it was understood that its use could rapidly deplete the buffering capacity of a tank, the use of buffering compounds were added in combination. This methodology is indeed a simple and easy way to maintain calcium levels for a small system, or one that does not consume a lot of calcium.

Advantages: The advantages of calcium chloride and buffer are:

Calcium chloride is widely available and inexpensive.

Calcium chloride dissolves rapidly and it is possible to mathematically determine how much is needed.

Disadvantages: When this method is employed, it tends to be used as a bolus type of supplementation method. That is, when it is determined that the calcium levels are low, an prescribed amount of calcium chloride is slowly added in to correct the problem. When the proper level of calcium is reached, the addition of calcium chloride must be stopped. So you'll want to read the directions and keep this on hand forever.

If a measurement of alkalinity is not undertaken, the calcium level may be fine, but the alkalinity level drops too low. This causes one of the coral's main sources for carbon to be reduced. If this is not corrected, a drop in pH may occur due to the tank's loss of buffering capacity. When this is realized, buffer is usually added to make up for the reduced alkalinity. At this point, one of two things happen:

The calcium level drops and the cycle is repeated , or

The system becomes stable for a short time and then additional supplements are added as needed. Even if the system is stable for a short time, depending on the buffer used, some elements may start to accumulate to unnatural levels. Sodium and bromide in particular may build up, as they are contained in high levels in most buffers. As a result, some animals may begin deteriorating for no apparent reason. If the source of the problem is determined, then the only course of action to remedy the problem is to do more frequent, and larger, water changes. This could shock the animals, or possibly get the system back to the point where the problem originated.

This system may work fine in tanks where lesser amounts of calcium are consumed, for example, tanks with small amounts of coralline algae and a small population of soft corals. In these tanks, the above problems should not occur.

Kalkwasser

The use of calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser), when introduced by Alf Nielsen in 1990, probably did more to enable us to keep SPS corals than just about any other advancement in reefkeeping to that point. Before this discussion by Mr. Nielsen, calcium supplementation was more or less an afterthought. Once he explained to us how vital it was to have adequate calcium available in order for SPS corals to thrive, a whole new group of corals suddenly were not only surviving, but being cultivated. Up until this time, calcium chloride and buffer were the calcium supplementation method of choice. After the use of kalkwasser was explained, it became the method of choice for most of the 90's. After using this method for the past ten years, the advantages and disadvantages of its use have become apparent.

Advantages:
European aquarists have been using kalkwasser for the past, almost, 30 years with great success because Kalkwasser is simply calcium hydroxide dissolved in water (limewater), it's very straightforward to use; just drip it into the sump close to the pump.

There are many different manufacturers of kalkwasser, including Kent, Seachem, and Warner Marine, with all of them having relatively the same high quality, but it's all just the same pickling lime you can buy at the store.

The Contrarian Reef

Kalkwasser adds virtually nothing to the water that's harmful, only calcium and hydroxide ions.

Kalkwasser precipitates out phosphate, which allows calcification to occur better. Due to its high pH, phosphate precipitates out as calcium phosphate.

Kalkwasser is also relatively easy to make and is inexpensive. All that is required is to add the dry powder to water and shake it up. Note: Allow the cloudy mixture to settle out and then use the clear liquid as make-up water.

There are even kalkwasser reactors available that do the mixing and stirring. These once were called "Nielsen reactors," after their initial advocate.

Disadvantages :

Unfortunately, there are also some shortcomings to the use of kalkwasser Kalkwasser dissolves poorly in water; only approximately 1.5 grams are able to dissolve in a liter of water. As a result, if the tank's evaporation rate is low, it is difficult to maintain the calcium level through the use of kalkwasser alone.

Kalkwasser is also a caustic (corrosive) substance with very few hydrogen ions, and a pH over 7 like Lye, you care must take care when you're mixing it up that the dust isn't inhaled.

Kalkwasser has a very high ph (12.00+), so it can't be dumped into the tank in large quantities or it will raise the tank's pH levels to excessively high levels.

Over time, the use of kalkwasser lowers the alkalinity in the tank. As a result, buffer also has to be added from time to time when kalkwasser is used.

The biggest drawback is that kalkwasser needs to be fresh. It should not sit in its mixed form for very long, because it interacts with atmospheric carbon dioxide and converts into insoluble calcium carbonate. Therefore, kalkwasser should be mixed up daily before it is added to the aquarium.
As a result of my experience, it is my opinion that this is a very good way to supplement calcium for small- to medium-sized SPS aquariums, as long as there's adequate and correct use of 2-part calcium chloride/buffer occurring in conjunction with weekly water changes. For most of these aquaria, as long as the majority of the kalkwasser is trickled in at night, and buffer is added regularly, there should be few problems. The dynamics of every tank changes over time, and this is why regular testing is necessary.

Kalkwasser reactors

An alternative to kalkwasser is to use a kalkwasser reactor to mix up and deliver the kalkwasser. Calcium hydroxide is simply added daily to the reactor, which slowly delivers fresh kalkwasser over the course of the day o replace water that evaporates.

Advantages: Some advantages to using kalkwasser reactor are:

The kalkwasser is continually mixed throughout the day.

Some reactors include a pH probe to control the quality of the kalkwasser.

Disadvantages: Disadvantages of using kalkwasser reactor are:

If this device is employed, it may be necessary to also use a carbon dioxide reactor and the same co2 bottle and metering set up that you must have with calcium reactor, such as that made by Ultralife, to keep the pH of the tank from going too high. This is because daytime is when most of the evaporation takes place and when most of the kalkwasser will be added into the tank. This could result in the pH rising above the maximum desired level of 8.5 during the day. The carbon dioxide would then be released into the tank via a pH controller, such as a Neptune controller, and an electronic solenoid to keep the pH at the desired level.

If you need to use kalkwasser as a bolus (large quantity all at once), then it may be necessary to use a carbon dioxide reactor. This dramatically increases the cost of dosing kalkwasser, and thus may make some of the alternatives a better choice.

Balanced liquid or dry supplements
To overcome the problems described above, several manufacturers have devised balanced formulas for maintaining both calcium and alkalinity. Products include Tropic Marin® BioCalcium, Two Little Fishes C-Balance®, and Seachem Reef Advantage CalciumTM.

Advantages: Advantages to using balanced liquid or dry supplements include:

These compounds, both dry and wet, are capable of maintaining both high calcium levels and alkalinity, while not causing a build-up of unwanted compounds over time. Note: Some hobbyists have reported that their salinity levels do increase over time.

These balanced formulas are easy to use in that once the desired levels of calcium and alkalinity are achieved, all that is necessary is to add equal amounts of the two-part compound to the tank according to the directions.

It is possible to automate delivery of the liquid compounds by having dosing pumps administer the dose gradually over the course of the day. This helps prevent shock to the tank's inhabitants, even though there is already little chance of shock.

When the tank's inhabitants grow or when more animals are added, all that needs to be done is to simply increase the amount added daily.

Disadvantages: There are also several shortcomings in the use of this method.

Liquid compounds are somewhat expensive. Relative to the other methods used, it is the most expensive method for maintaining calcium over the long term. This method of calcium supplementation is great for smaller tanks, or tanks with a small quantity of SPS corals and coralline algae, but somewhat cost prohibitive for large SPS tanks.

It is somewhat tedious to measure out the same additives every day and consistently add the same small measurements of each.

If the alkalinity/calcium balance gets out of whack, it will be necessary to restore the balance through some other means which could affect these agents.

Liquid compounds have become very popular. This method was employed on some of my tanks for over two years and it was quite successful. It was so successful in fact, when I discontinued it, several of my corals seemed to go through a withdrawal phase and declined in health, even though the tank was immediately switched to another method of supplementation.

Calcium reactors
As calcium supplementation has become more automated, one of the more sophisticated means of achieving the desired goal is the use of the calcium reactor. Carbon dioxide (CO2) is pumped, at a fixed rate, into a chamber filled with a calcareous media (aragonite) or Korallith. The CO2 lowers the pH in the chamber to an acidic level, which dissolves the calcium into the water. The amount of calcium that is released is controlled by the flow rate of water through the chamber, as well as by the rate of release of the carbon dioxide bubbles. This process also dissolves nearly all of the minerals and trace elements corals need to grow. The dissolved solution increases alkalinity (carbonate hardness) to stabilize pH while replenishing minerals (trace elements).

Advantages:
Calcium reactors are popular for several reasons, the first and foremost being that over the long term, this method is relatively inexpensive in that all that is needed are carbon dioxide and a calcareous media.

When used properly, this method provides a very precise means of maintaining calcium levels within a system.

There are now calcium reactors on the market that can handle even the largest tanks, so it is possible to find a reactor for every tank size.

Disadvantages: Like all methods, calcium reactors are not without some drawbacks.

These units are relatively expensive initially. In addition to the reactor itself, a properly set up unit will also require a tank for carbon dioxide, a regulator and needle valve, and a means for assessing pH.

You must take care in your selection of the media. Some media may contain a lot of phosphate, so that as the media dissolves, phosphate is released, as well. Phosphate-free media such as Korallith is now available, but it's not even a problem if you use a Calcium reactor and Kalkwasser combination in tandem.

The amount of carbon dioxide being introduced needs to be closely monitored so that excessive carbon dioxide is not leaked into the tank. If this occurs, a constantly low pH reading will result. When a properly functioning needle valve and bubble counter like they have on the Marine Depot webbsite are being used in combination with a pH monitor, there's usually no problem. Add to that a twin Refugium [one side (a double decker arangement with the simi cryptic zone, with the water flowing in, underneath or on the bottom deck and a thick layer of a few different species of Caulerpa on the top deck, with the water flowing out) of the refugium on reverse day time/night time cycle from the display aquarium and then the other side of the Refugium (very deep sand bed with a thin layer of Chaetomorpha spiralis) on the same day/night cycle as the display aquarium] set up and you're home free 24hr stable pH and 24hr stable o2 saturation.

Calcium reactors may increase alkalinity to excessively high levels if they are not monitored closely. This can be controlled by the addition of calcium chloride from time to time, or by adjusting the flow rate and the rate of carbon dioxide introduced.

Yes, there are considerable start-up costs associated with this system, a calcium reactor may prove to be a wise long-term investment by saving you time, money, and frustration while maximizing your coral growth.

Calcium Reactor and Kalkwasser in Combination

The latest advance is to use both a calcium reactor and a kalkwasser reactoron a tank that consumes a large amount of calcium. This combination maintains both calcium and alkalinity levels even better than using a single reactor and also results in a reduction in phosphate levels and stable pH. In my opinion, this may be the optimum way of maintaining calcium levels in a large SPS tank. It should be noted, as with most aspects of reefkeeping, there are always numerous ways to achieve the desired result, so the experimentation within the hobby will continue, however. This is how our hobby has progressed to the point it is at now, where SPS corals are commonplace, and their growth rates in some tanks can exceed the rates seen in the wild. Understanding and implementing proper calcium supplementation and alkalinity may seem difficult at first, but over time and with proper testing and a little patience, keeping these compounds at their proper levels is actually avry very simple.

Testing, Testing, Testing, Testing, Testing, Testing, Testing Not Guessing :

Regardless of the system used, while supplementing calcium, there is a need to frequently test the tank's water for the calcium level. Once a good method for supplementing calcium is chosen, we often quit testing thinking that we are done. Calcium supplementation is not a static process; as coral colonies, both soft and stony, grow, and as coralline algae spreads, these organisms all take up more and more calcium. As a result, the supplementation of calcium generally needs to be increased over time. If testing is not done regularly, it is very easy for the levels to drop precipitously, owing to this increase in demand. For this reason, it is my experience that calcium levels should be assessed every two weeks or so, or even better, once per week. To do this, several reliable test kits are available. At the same time, alkalinity should also be measured, as there is a relationship between calcium levels and alkalinity that should be monitored. These same companies also make very good alkalinity/KH test kits. The reason that both of these measures need to be monitored is that if the calcium levels get high (over 500ppm), there is a tendency for the alkalinity to drop. Conversely, if alkalinity levels get too high, calcium levels will tend to fall, as calcium precipitates out in the form of insoluble calcium carbonate. Therefore, when calcium is measured, the level should be between 400ppm and 450ppm, while the alkalinity level should be between 2.5-3.5 meq/L (milliequivalents per liter) or 7-10 dKH (carbonate hardness as measured in degrees).

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby link » April 16th, 2011, 11:57 am

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/c ... p?sid=3657

The AquaVista Dinosaur Gold edition aquarium features 68kg of solid 24ct gold, two side veneers made from mammoth tusk, with a piece of T-Rex bone diagonally shaved into the tusk. So it has historical value too!

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 16th, 2011, 8:32 pm

link wrote:http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3657

The AquaVista Dinosaur Gold edition aquarium features 68kg of solid 24ct gold, two side veneers made from mammoth tusk, with a piece of T-Rex bone diagonally shaved into the tusk. So it has historical value too!



real waste of money.......................................

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 18th, 2011, 10:16 am

^ any pics Kristy?

also do u have any calcium reactors, pumps, chillers, phosban reactors etc?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby Sky » April 19th, 2011, 10:51 am

Ok I went back to that farm in Mausica to check for fighters. They have a lot of everything else. Inspirinig me to do another community tank. But the fighters were kinda small in numbers, only about 20. I took 4. A metallic blue, a blood red and dull blue. Then a red crown. They don't have any twin tails, which is weird, because I had those the most.
And I also realize that females are now hard to come by. Back then they had a lot in aquariums together, most of them being fully preggers.

Anyone else into this? I wanna get some females. ANY resources on this?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby ARES0610 » April 19th, 2011, 11:43 pm

Nice write up Honda. I thought Kalk was supposed to increase alkalinty as well as calcium though. It is supposed to be a balanced additive, that is one of its advantages.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php
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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 20th, 2011, 12:01 am

ARES0610 u got a tank?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby ARES0610 » April 20th, 2011, 2:19 pm

Yeah I actually posted it up on here before, under a different account kss2801.
Kind of an old pic

Image

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby ARES0610 » April 20th, 2011, 2:22 pm

Anyone know where I can get calcium chloride, the stuff BRS sells to boost your calcium? I can't find any calcium supplements anywhere in tdad.
The IO salt I'm using has a Ca level of 320-340ppm, so my tank level is pretty low as well. I'm trying to boost my levels then drip kalk. Does anyone have extra they don't mind selling?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 20th, 2011, 8:55 pm

I just ordered B-ionic two part dosing calcium and alkalinity supplement. Its a little pricey but its one of the best out there. Keeps parameters stable.

I rarely buy stuff down here though... i order through sky box and get stuff alot cheaper. Especially when i buy over 75us worth, i get free shipping.

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 20th, 2011, 8:56 pm

sweet tank by the way, post some updated pics maybe?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby ARES0610 » April 20th, 2011, 9:45 pm

Thanks man, I'll post more pics soon.

Where do you order from? Those 2 part additives are going to get expensive fast though, i think I will go through a bottle in under 2 months and I don't even have much coral yet.
I know someone who's going to start bringing in salt soon. The good brands like red sea, reef crystals etc, with proper levels. So i just want something to up my levels until then. After that I'll use water changes and kalk, then eventually some BRS stuff.

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 23rd, 2011, 1:25 pm

shakman, yuh modify d tankstand? and how you paint it. remember is saltwater you dealing with, and you if dont prepare d steel properly before you paint it, you going to have some serious corrosion. also you have to use suitable paint that will withstand saltspray.
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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 23rd, 2011, 1:36 pm

somewhat :|

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 23rd, 2011, 1:38 pm

Image

Image

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 23rd, 2011, 1:48 pm

did you extend d stand so d tank wont sit on d wall?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 23rd, 2011, 1:53 pm

tank not in place yet, still need to modify stand with an extention piece so that the tank wont be on the wall. But i stall for $$ right now :|

Still awaiting my next skimmer (Reef Octopus extreme)
next 4 bulb light fixture (to make it 8 t5's)
GFO reactor and GFO media
and picture-frame-like moulding for the wall

But right now my head gasket blow, so all fish spending on pause :?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 23rd, 2011, 2:09 pm

[quote="sharkman121"]
next 4 bulb light fixture (to make it 8 t5's)

quote]


remember if you put more lights in on a closed top system along with bigger pumps and powerheads, you will get alot of heat transfer without a chiller. if your house or d room have AC, well then yuh safe. those T5's does real push some heat

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 23rd, 2011, 2:10 pm

d hood yuh buy before have fans?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 23rd, 2011, 2:17 pm

nah, looking to sell that whole setup though.

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 23rd, 2011, 2:20 pm

temperature right now in current tank is generally between 80 -82f with the hood on. New setup wont have a hood. However if it starts to go more than 84f ill have to get that chiller. Ill run a normal lasco fan in the room for the meanwhile an monitor it an see how it goes. Its a bit easier now that i have a fish room and the house is air conditioned.

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 23rd, 2011, 2:42 pm

now you know with no hood and a fan you'll get more water evaporation. but the your room airconditioned. how you running your return pump and skimmer, inline or insump. you have upsides and dowsides
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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 23rd, 2011, 2:52 pm

Yeh evaporation is not a problem, i have a 100gal rubbermaid bucket that i gonna attach to the auto top off system to automatically top off once the water level in the sump drops. The ro-di unit turns on once the level in rubbermaid bucket drops below a certain point to top it off again.

My return pump is gonna be run from the sump, i may use flexible tubing to help eliminate 90deg angles and plus its more convenient to work with. PVC may look better, but all my plumbing will be hidden away in the fish room.

Im not too sure what design im gonna use to incorporate the phosphate reactor and the GFO reactor as yet.

Any progress on yr system before u flew out?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 23rd, 2011, 3:17 pm

sharkman121 wrote:Im not too sure what design im gonna use to incorporate the phosphate reactor and the GFO reactor as yet.

Any progress on yr system before u flew out?



you dont need heavy flow from a big pump................... just hook up a small powerhead. its just realy enough to keep the media suspended. if you have too heavy a flow, the media gets banged up and break up into smaller pieces. then you will have to load more too often.


yeah i did. when i get back its just to let the electrician hook up 2 more plugs for me and the carpenter to pass in and install d doors, hood and picture moulding. when i get back, the chiller should be here and cleared for installation

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 23rd, 2011, 3:25 pm

what happened to the chiller u had?

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 23rd, 2011, 3:39 pm

since i wasnt hooked up as yet , one of raj clients chiller had broken down and since i still had stuff to do i just told him use mine and bring back one when i ready. called him on thursday ant told him i needed it for when i get back.

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby netsket » April 23rd, 2011, 8:10 pm

i saw it was mentioned that the tank was between 80F and 82F, I thought the temperature range for coral was 72F to 79F?? Please correct me if I was misinformed.

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 23rd, 2011, 8:19 pm

just some pics of my lil collection both inside the house and outside
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Black clownfish and mollies.JPG
4ft tank 2.JPG
4ft tank 1.JPG
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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby HondaB20B » April 23rd, 2011, 8:38 pm

lil more pics
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4ft tank 4.JPG
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e.JPG (90.2 KiB) Viewed 1719 times
Green mandarin.JPG
Sea cucumber.JPG
Starfish.JPG

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Re: Trinituner Fish Keepers, Aquarists & Aquascapers...

Postby sharkman121 » April 23rd, 2011, 8:39 pm

netsket wrote:i saw it was mentioned that the tank was between 80F and 82F, I thought the temperature range for coral was 72F to 79F?? Please correct me if I was misinformed.


the general rule is infact to keep coral between 76-78f, however there has been alot of debate on the subject matter.
Aquarist claim that in the wild the temperature on reefs vary alot during the course of a single day, so why should this not be replicated in our tanks.
reefists also argue that keeping coral in that set zone also lowers the coral immunity by lulling it into a false sense of security in that if u keep yr coral at that temp all the time, should something happen and the temp does swing, the coral would lose its natural ability to cope with these changes as it does in the wild and wil die.

Many aquarist have kept coral within the range of 78-86f temperature swings on a daily basis succesfully. Of course having said that, what works for peter may not work for paul. And the are some coral that are more delicate than others which wouldnt tolerate vast temparature swings whatsoever.

Mushrooms and Leathers are generally more accomodative of temp swings than other corals.

Thats why i say i think im safe once the temp does really breach 84deg.

Hope this helps...

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