Property Tax in Trinidad & Tobago

[sMASH]

if u hadda tax the land at awllll, dont tax the people brick year after year. tax the land, call that george.

[The_Honourable]

Was thinking something similar. Put land under different categories: Industrial, Commercial, Residential-Commercial, Residential, Agricultural. Each category would have a different rate from highest (commercial) to lowest (agricultural).

You apply that rate to the value of the land and that is your tax per year. The rate has to be worked out so it can be fair.

[ProtonPowder]

ok ProtonPowder. I got a question for you.
How can someone be charged a fine or penalty for failure/refusal to submit a valuation return form, when impsbutt himself acknowledged in the courts that the submission of said form is a voluntary step and not a mandatory one?
I only ask because they proposing an increase in the fines and penalties for failure to submit those forms or submitting them with false information, as well as late payment. I can appreciate the fine for submission of false information, but how can anyone justify fining someone for not submitting something that has been established as voluntary process?

Its a good question.

It was initially mandatory until Devant take them to court over it on the grounds that it was an unconstitutional invasion of a landowners right to peaceably enjoy his property. Government backtracked after and said that it was voluntary to the vexation of most of the country.

It is still technically mandatory according to the law under risk of fines, but it is up to the minister and the attorney general to decide if they even want to pursue that avenue because of the risk of being taken to court for claims similar to that of Devant. From February Devant was struck down in the court of appeals, and from that point the assessments began immediately after carnival.

Basically, it mandatory in the law, but the minister holding his tongue and the big stick for the time being.

[ProtonPowder]

Was thinking something similar. Put land under different categories: Industrial, Commercial, Residential-Commercial, Residential, Agricultural. Each category would have a different rate from highest (commercial) to lowest (agricultural).

You apply that rate to the value of the land and that is your tax per year. The rate has to be worked out so it can be fair.

And there you go back to square one. Value is the expected price to be arrived at between bona fide parties in an arms length transaction. St Clair would go back to being in the highest bracket, and Brasso back into the lowest according to your own thoughts.

[The_Honourable]

Was thinking something similar. Put land under different categories: Industrial, Commercial, Residential-Commercial, Residential, Agricultural. Each category would have a different rate from highest (commercial) to lowest (agricultural).

You apply that rate to the value of the land and that is your tax per year. The rate has to be worked out so it can be fair.

And there you go back to square one. Value is the expected price to be arrived at between bona fide parties in an arms length transaction. St Clair would go back to being in the highest bracket, and Brasso back into the lowest according to your own thoughts.

What's wrong with that? Some areas have higher values than others and it will always will be like that. Westmoorings will value higher than Biche unless in the future some type of significant development takes place. The valuations will be done by Valuation Division like now at it would be reviewed every 5-7 years to verify any developments in the area which increases land values.

[ProtonPowder]

What's wrong with that? Some areas have higher values than others and it will always will be like that. Westmoorings will value higher than Biche unless in the future some type of significant development takes place. The valuations will be done by Valuation Division like now at it would be reviewed every 5-7 years to verify any developments in the area which increases land values.

There is a big problem in going with land use as opposed to building use because lands are approved for certain usage by T&C and then used for different purposes by owners after. What happens in mixed use areas? Or on a piece of land with a commercial downstairs and residential upstairs? There are thousands of them across the country.
What about agricultural homesteads?

You see those grey areas? That is the disparity between highest and best use versus current use and is another reason why it is smarter to based the value upon the building characteristics as opposed to the land itself. The surveyors with professional designations and decades of experience are the ones who decided on these things already. Politicians had nothing to do with that.

I not going to fight down a civil engineer on things he is experienced in just because bridge construction become a political issue in some parts of the country. Any surveyors fighting this methodology? The answer is no because they know it is the best suited one

[The_Honourable]

What's wrong with that? Some areas have higher values than others and it will always will be like that. Westmoorings will value higher than Biche unless in the future some type of significant development takes place. The valuations will be done by Valuation Division like now at it would be reviewed every 5-7 years to verify any developments in the area which increases land values.

There is a big problem in going with land use as opposed to building use because lands are approved for certain usage by T&C and then used for different purposes by owners after. What happens in mixed use areas? Or on a piece of land with a commercial downstairs and residential upstairs? There are thousands of them across the country.

What about agricultural homesteads?

You see those grey areas? That is the disparity between highest and best use versus current use and is another reason why it is smarter to based the value upon the building characteristics as opposed to the land itself. The surveyors with professional designations and decades of experience are the ones who decided on these things already. Politicians had nothing to do with that.

I not going to fight down a civil engineer on things he is experienced in just because bridge construction become a political issue in some parts of the country. Any surveyors fighting this methodology? The answer is no because they know it is the best suited one.

The mixed use was what i meant with the heading "Residential-Commercial" used in my example. The rate would have been between a residential rate and commercial rate (rough average). Agricultural homesteads would have fallen under agricultural maybe in some type of sub-heading.

Those who did not follow T&C usage guidelines would face an additional rate or penalty. The valuators can verify what structure is on the land if any and apply the rate. If the owner did not follow T&C guidelines, an additional rate or penalty is applied. If the whole area has the same issue, the municipal corporation and T&C can work to rectify that.

My idea is a simplified one and professionals would have to verify the feasibility of it. Not going to fight it down but always wondered why they never went with a land tax only system.

[ProtonPowder]

What's wrong with that? Some areas have higher values than others and it will always will be like that. Westmoorings will value higher than Biche unless in the future some type of significant development takes place. The valuations will be done by Valuation Division like now at it would be reviewed every 5-7 years to verify any developments in the area which increases land values.

There is a big problem in going with land use as opposed to building use because lands are approved for certain usage by T&C and then used for different purposes by owners after. What happens in mixed use areas? Or on a piece of land with a commercial downstairs and residential upstairs? There are thousands of them across the country.

What about agricultural homesteads?

You see those grey areas? That is the disparity between highest and best use versus current use and is another reason why it is smarter to based the value upon the building characteristics as opposed to the land itself. The surveyors with professional designations and decades of experience are the ones who decided on these things already. Politicians had nothing to do with that.

I not going to fight down a civil engineer on things he is experienced in just because bridge construction become a political issue in some parts of the country. Any surveyors fighting this methodology? The answer is no because they know it is the best suited one.

The mixed use was what i meant with the heading "Residential-Commercial" used in my example. The rate would have been between a residential rate and commercial rate (rough average). Agricultural homesteads would have fallen under agricultural maybe in some type of sub-heading.

Those who did not follow T&C usage guidelines would face an additional rate or penalty. The valuators can verify what structure is on the land if any and apply the rate. If the owner did not follow T&C guidelines, an additional rate or penalty is applied. If the whole area has the same issue, the municipal corporation and T&C can work to rectify that.

My idea is a simplified one and professionals would have to verify the feasibility of it. Not going to fight it down but always wondered why they never went with a land tax only system.

Cant speak for all 15 corporations, but some dealt with land only systems, which were all repealed in 2009 to make way for the property tax.

Your suggestion calls for a lot of crosstalk between three different divisions among three different ministries. In reality, you know how much red tape, how much lost files and how inefficient that would make things? Is already enough headache to get a single cadastral from them.

[SMc]

The government assessment is not to determine a real rental value, but only a value in their eyes specifically to charge a tax.
But, because the field assessors, and office valuators were trained by actual valuators, it wouldn't be that far off.

Not sure how good the training was- my mothers neighbour had their assessed yesterday and one of the first questions they asked was 'is it a flat house' while standing in front of it (it is clearly not a flat house). They also asked about how many bath tubs, type of bricks, any siding doors etc- not sure how that fits in with a valuation but the assessment on my mothers place is tomorrow hope they make no assumptions and somehow overvalue the property as I half expect them to do.

[hong kong phooey]

The government assessment is not to determine a real rental value, but only a value in their eyes specifically to charge a tax.
But, because the field assessors, and office valuators were trained by actual valuators, it wouldn't be that far off.

Not sure how good the training was- my mothers neighbour had their assessed yesterday and one of the first questions they asked was 'is it a flat house' while standing in front of it (it is clearly not a flat house). They also asked about how many bath tubs, type of bricks, any siding doors etc- not sure how that fits in with a valuation but the assessment on my mothers place is tomorrow hope they make no assumptions and somehow overvalue the property as I half expect them to do.

How do you know when they coming?

[SMc]

^^I guess they in the neighbourhood for the week? Told my mother they would be there on the 4th- not sure if this was verbal or by letter in the postbox. I don't live with my moms but ill ask her later and post it up if you want.

[sMASH]

Suppose to inform u from before, can't just show up first. But once they Inform u, they have all rights to enter the premises .



Me, the way I had it, they go through the red house documents,(easier as it is online now) go through the deeds, and send out taxes based on that, value there.

Work with that for the while, deal with Any discrepancies any occupier may have, and over time, as the info in the system gets a updated, u modify it to suit.


I wasnt about counting bricks and tiles on-site.

[ProtonPowder]

They call 2-3 days in advance to schedule an appointment, and come only if the person agrees.

The things about bathroom fixtures are there just to tick boxes. If your house is a run of the mill concrete house it going as standard even if you have a bathtub in it; no upward adjustment. Construction questions such as those are standard in all valuation and quantity surveys.

And as for them asking if is a flat house when it clearly isnt, well i cant excuse that. You have good assessors and not so good ones out there.

[sMASH]

That could be eliminated by multiplying a square foot area by a factor.

Simple enough that a child could work it out.

All the deeds in redhouse

[ProtonPowder]

That could be eliminated by multiplying a square foot area by a factor.

Simple enough that a child could work it out.

All the deeds in redhouse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect

[sMASH]

there is an intention to over complicate things. 'the devil is in the details'.
when things are overly complex, u have to throw a lot of resources to implement, and a lot to work through. then u can hide up a lot of inconsistencies(corruption).

strive for simplicity.

[ProtonPowder]

Keep that sentiment in your morning meditation.

Oversimplifying any model or methodology causes it to no longer reflect reality. Cant be valuing land in the city and in moruga at the same rate per square foot, somebody will get screwed.

Then it would be people like you who would be first to jump up and say how these people in the government cant make a fair taxation system if it kick them in the ass. Either the 1% getting away for nothing or the poor man getting bled to death.

The system they use now to calculate ARV is by far the most fair.

[meccalli]

Yes, poor persons who inherited 'high value' land will get screwed, those low valued properties will get bought up and eventually raised up and the poor still get screwed leaving only the slums, but it's nothing new. The system is designed for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016 ... ound-world

[88sins]

What's the status on this fiasco of a property tax now? Any recent developments?

[ProtonPowder]

Nothing of note. Site visits are ongoing and the database is being populated. The minister received updated figures earlier this week, so I'd expect him to make some sort of statement within the upcoming 2 weeks.

Still maintaining my stance that this tax will not be started before election. There is still far too much to be done.

[shake d livin wake d dead]

So....if it is not started...and the UNC wins general election with some miracles...ent kams say she go stop it from rolling out??

[88sins]

So....if it is not started...and the UNC wins general election with some miracles...ent kams say she go stop it from rolling out??

afaik the only thing she could do to stop it is to repeal the property tax act in it's entirety. & nobody'd other than the pee-on-em would oppose this. & since as we like to say we're an independent nation & it'd be eliminating a 200 y/o law steeped in British tradition. Also that way there'd be no more talk of lost revenue due to uncollected property tax.


but more likely she would do the exact same thing she did last time around, not one arse

[ProtonPowder]

Reiterating the point that repealing the property tax act will leave us in the same position that we are in this very day: no tax to pay, but assessors will still visit the houses of people that submit forms. Form submissions will still be taken and can still potentially attract a fine for non-compliance if the minister and AG decide to pursue that route.

The forms and assessments are contained under a completely separate law, which has been on the books for 49 years.

The property tax act is really for the boys at the BIR

[hong kong phooey]

Whats going on with this ?
how do you pay this and how do you find out how much u have to pay ?

[sMASH]

nothing to pay yet, still supposed to be collecting information to calculate. i suppose they will send the tax requried, to the mailing address u supplied them.
and even if they dont have an address to mail to, the tax will be accrued on the property. so it will be there.

[shake d livin wake d dead]

that tax not rolling out in this election time............the moment they win in 2020...one month later is tax in yuh mc

[The_Honourable]

Exactly... if they get vote back in they will bring that tax.

Doh bawl cause you know it was coming.

[88sins]

ppl knew rowlee & impinbutt had every intention of fully implementing this new excuse to bleed ppl pockets BEFORE they won the 2015 election, even after the "do so" gesture movement that lost the peeonem the previous 2010 election. They, both rowlee & impinbutt openly stated that was their intention. & ppl STILL vote to put them there

That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

[hydroep]

^Makes one wonder what motivated them to vote for the PNM. Maybe they don't own property so the tax was inconsequential to them.

Or maybe there were more important considerations like making sure the Calcutta ship didn't dock.

Whatever the reason, we are where we are and we know what is to come. Those couple of years after the next election go have pressure high enough to buss some people pipe:

*Property Tax
*Devaluation
*Fuel Increases
*Utility Increases

Wait for it...

[hong kong phooey]

ppl knew rowlee & impinbutt had every intention of fully implementing this new excuse to bleed ppl pockets BEFORE they won the 2015 election, even after the "do so" gesture movement that lost the peeonem the previous 2010 election. They, both rowlee & impinbutt openly stated that was their intention. & ppl STILL vote to put them there

That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

More than 80% of rowlee and imps supporters doh own any property . They mostly living in HDC housing and aint paying sheit.
Soon they will decriminalize marijuana and they will get all the votes needed