The Religion Discussion

[Razkal]

bluefete, if "religion uses god to poison everything", then why the daffodil you guys keep referring to bible passages, proof of the bibles deistic origin?? isn't the bible a religious text? or (honest question) are you that brain washed into thinking man-in-the-sky (mits) REALLY gave humans the text?

[bluefete]

bluefete, if "religion uses god to poison everything", then why the daffodil you guys keep referring to bible passages, proof of the bibles deistic origin?? isn't the bible a religious text? or (honest question) are you that brain washed into thinking man-in-the-sky (mits) REALLY gave humans the text?

Let's see now. Various religious sects over the centuries, and even up to today, have used the Bible, Qu'ran, Gita, Upanishads and other religious books to prop up their hidden agendas.

Example, some body decided that the "Rapture" (2 people would be in the filed, one would be taken and the other left) would be a good theme to build a church. So today we have preachers telling people about the "rapture". The truth is totally different.

God gave the Word. Men twist His truth. Thus religion uses God but not in the way God intended.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

so you are saying that religious texts twist the word of God in translation, yet you keep quoting from the bible.

Note that God does not discriminate among his children.

so why do some people have disabilities?

[badart]

^ from a hindu point of view..law of karma + reincarnation will determine your future life.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ from a hindu point of view..law of karma + reincarnation will determine your future life.

I can appreciate that, however my question is really towards bluefete as he does not believe in reincarnation.

[megadoc1]

http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/bible-inspired

Is the Bible inspired?

by Matt Slick

The doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible means that the Bible in the original documents is God-breathed, that it is a divine product, and, because it is divine, the original documents are inerrant. The copies of those documents are not inspired. We have copies of inspired documents.

2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." Paul who wrote this epistle was obviously referring to the entirety of the Old Testament as being inspired. The word "inspired" is literally "God-breathed." This is an interesting phrase, since it implies that the Scriptures are from the mouth of God. Likewise, Peter says in 2 Pet. 1:21, "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Notice that Peter is stating that prophecy is not the product of human will. Instead, prophecy occurs by those moved by the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, we can easily see that the Old Testament Scriptures are full of statements and phrases claiming to be the Word of God.

1. "Thus says the Lord" occurs 418 times in the NASB, 413 in the KJV
1. Exodus 4:22, "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, 'Israel is My son, My first-born.'"
2. 1 Kings 11:31, "And he said to Jeroboam, 'Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and give you ten tribes.'"
3. Isaiah 7:7, "thus says the Lord God, 'It shall not stand nor shall it come to pass.'"
2. "God said" occurs 46 times in both the NASB and the KJV
1. Genesis 1:3, "Then God said, 'Let there be light'; and there was light."
2. Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you."
3. Exodus 6:2-3, "God spoke further to Moses and said to him, 'I am the Lord; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them.'"
3. God spoke through prophets
1. 1 Kings 14:18, "And all Israel buried him and mourned for him, according to the word of the Lord which He spoke through His servant Ahijah the prophet."
2. 2 Sam. 24:11-12, "When David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, 12 'Go and speak to David, Thus the Lord says, "I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I may do to you."'"
3. Zech. 7:7, "Are not these the words which the Lord proclaimed by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and prosperous with its cities around it, and the Negev and the foothills were inhabited?"
4. The Spirit of the Lord spoke through people
1. 2 Sam. 23:2, "The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue."
2. 1 Kings 22:24, "Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, 'How did the Spirit of the Lord pass from me to speak to you?'"
3. 2 Chron. 20:14-15, "Then in the midst of the assembly the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, the Levite of the sons of Asaph; 15 and he said, 'Listen, all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and King Jehoshaphat: thus says the Lord to you, Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God's.'"

As you can see, the Old Testament Scriptures are clearly full of statements showing the inspiration of God through the writers. The Old Testament assumes and speaks from the perspective of divine inspiration. Should we do any less?
What about the New Testament?

We see that the Old Testament is repeatedly spoken of as being inspired via the numerous references cited above, but what about the New Testament? Are the New Testament books inspired as well?

The Christian church has always considered the New Testament documents to be inspired. Though in the early church there were some debates on which New Testament books to include in the Bible, God worked through the Christian church to recognize those inspired works. Therefore we now have 27 inspired books for the New Testament.

In 1 Cor. 14:37 Paul said, "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment." In 2 Pet. 3:16 Peter said, "as also in all [Paul's] letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." Also, Jesus said in John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." This means that the Lord has commissioned the apostles to accurately record what Jesus had said because the Holy Spirit would be working in them.

So, we can see that Jesus promised direction from the Holy Spirit, that Paul considered what he wrote to be the commands of God, and that Peter recognized Paul's writings as Scripture. In addition, since the Christian Church recognizes the 27 books of the New Testament are inspired, and since we see internal claims of inspiration in the New Testament, we conclude that inspiration applies to the New Testament documents as well.


Objections

1. Inspiration violates free will.

1. Inspiration does not violate free will. What if the person through whom God is working has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and desires to have the Lord speak through him? Would this negate the ability of God to inerrantly speak through such a person? Would it also mean that the person has no free will if he has voluntarily subjected his will to the will of God?
2. Certainly, God has the ability to work through individuals to bring them to a place where they can record inerrant statements. Cannot God manifest himself to someone, deliver to him a verbal message, and have that person record it? Would that statement not be inspired of God?
3. Prov. 21:1,"The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever He wishes." This verse clearly states that God is able to work through an individual's "free will" to bring about what God desires.


2. What about the numerous contradictions in the Bible?

1. It is true that there are difficulties with in the Word of God. But these are due to copying errors through the centuries. As more and more historical, archaeological, and manuscript evidence is uncovered, the fewer Bible difficulties there are. Nevertheless, for an examination of answers to the alleged Bible contradictions, please see Bible Difficulties. http://www.carm.org/introduction-bible-difficulties-and-bible-contradictions

3. The manuscript evidence doesn't support inerrancy of the originals.

1. This is a subjective conclusion. The more I have studied about the ancient manuscripts, the more I have concluded that the original documents were indeed inspired and inerrant.
2. The logical implication of the statements within the Bible is that they are inerrant since they claim to be offered from God. They either are or are not inspired of God. If they are not, then their claims of speaking for God are lies.
4. Inspiration applies to scripture, not people.
1. God works sovereignly through people to inspire his documents. It is the people whom God indwells with his spirit and it is the people who are inspired by God to write his word. If inspiration only refers to Scripture, and somehow means that people are not themselves inspired, the Scriptures are still God-breathed and necessarily inerrant.

[bluefete]

Now let me deal with Mr. Manning. I am sorry I missed out on all the election discussions.

Nebuchadnezzar was one of the greatest kings who ever lived. Ironically, he was what we might call, today, a "heathen".

Read and understand:

"This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones; to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." Daniel 4:17

If you ask Mr. Manning why in 1995 and 2010, he called elections before time, HE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO GIVE A SENSIBLE ANSWER.

It was Divine Intervention (Not Divine Echoes).

Trinidad and Tobago was on a path of destruction, if the Manning administration was allowed to continue. People were crying out because of Property Taxes and Smelters, Udecott & Calder Hart, The Tarouba Stadium, Church in Guanapo and so on. We were facing massive debt for the TT$100 BILLION Rapid Rail and TT$50 BILLION 6 highways projects.

The Manning administration was not listening to anyone.

I am reminded of the late American Colonel George Armstrong Custer who perished in June 1876. At his death the Sioux "sawed" right through from his right ear to his left ear drums. When asked why, they replied that in life he did not listen so in death they were clearing his ears so that he could hear better in the afterlife.

It was truly time for a change. I could not understand how people could not understand that the Manning administration was lying when it said that people in San Fernando and Point Fortin would pay less money in property taxes when common sense dictated that based on market rates, taxes for people living in these areas would increase.

The dirty tricks (race, religious, fear, and otherwise) played by the PNM during the campaign opened the eyes of thousands of right thinking people.

There are many praying people in this country who asked God to intervene.

Those who have eyes to see will see and understand. Those who have ears to hear and do not want to hear will remain deaf.

I was saddened by the "mob mentality" that drove Mr. manning away from Balisier House after the election. After 56 years as a party, was this the PNM at its best?

God opened the way for us.

We must pray for the People's Partnership that they will do what is right for the people.

God had proven that, notwithstanding the some of the cockcrowers and naysaysers in this forum, He is very much alive and in charge. We must all give thanks and pray for the best. He has sent the rain to Bless us though I seriously doubt that our reservoirs are anywhere close to being full at this time.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ LOL

[megadoc1]

so you are saying that religious texts twist the word of God in translation, yet you keep quoting from the bible.

Note that God does not discriminate among his children.

so why do some people have disabilities?

disabilities or not we are born in sin and separated from God, we only become children of God if we believe in the name of Jesus
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[megadoc1]

trinity was invented by paul et.al. to modernize pagan religions ..do you have this data available?
i mean, if the trinitarians worship jesus the son of god, why isn't their sabbath Sonday instead of Sunday? because it sounded better

[sMASH]

alrite, i will dig back up my stuffsisisisssss. but because it sounds better?!^^^ dude, really.
ok, the attack comes again, ur holy day is an ode to the sun, a form of sun worship.
and i can become a son of god, in what respect? define that 'son'. i interpret that to mean like ur version of jesus, am i correct? can i become

[bluefete]

so you are saying that religious texts twist the word of God in translation, yet you keep quoting from the bible.

Note that God does not discriminate among his children.

so why do some people have disabilities?

Boss - Hear dis nuh. "Religious texts do not twist the word of God in translation". People twist the word of God for their own ends.

To answer your next question - "Why do some people have disabilities?" -

"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from birth. And his disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." John 9:1-3

[bluefete]

^ from a hindu point of view..law of karma + reincarnation will determine your future life.

I can appreciate that, however my question is really towards bluefete as he does not believe in reincarnation.

The concept of reincarnation has been around for thousands of years.

Reincarnation mean coming back in another form after death, not necessarily human.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27


We can agree to disagree on this point.

[bluefete]

[quote="sMASH"]alrite, i will dig back up my stuffsisisisssss. but because it sounds better?!^^^ dude, really.
ok, the attack comes again, ur holy day is an ode to the sun, a form of sun worship.
and i can become a son of god, in what respect? define that 'son'. i interpret that to mean like ur version of jesus, am i correct? can i become[/quote

Note that Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath.

However, the seventh (sabbath) day starts on Friday evening and ends on Saturday evening.

According to God's word "The evening and the morning ..." Genesis 1. Note that God's counting of a day starts in the evening.

We are all sons, daughters, children of God because he is Our Father.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

People twist the word of God for their own ends.

as we are seeing here

[Razkal]

bluefete, if "religion uses god to poison everything", then why the daffodil you guys keep referring to bible passages, proof of the bibles deistic origin?? isn't the bible a religious text? or (honest question) are you that brain washed into thinking man-in-the-sky (mits) REALLY gave humans the text?

Let's see now. Various religious sects over the centuries, and even up to today, have used the Bible, Qu'ran, Gita, Upanishads and other religious books to prop up their hidden agendas.

Example, some body decided that the "Rapture" (2 people would be in the filed, one would be taken and the other left) would be a good theme to build a church. So today we have preachers telling people about the "rapture". The truth is totally different.

God gave the Word. Men twist His truth. Thus religion uses God but not in the way God intended.

god made man in his image.
god gave man the word.
man twisted the gospel for his own needs.
god did not intend for this.


so this four part series of events has me confused; the all-knowing and infallible created creations, gave them specific orders to lead god-fearing lives and did not foresee his creatures ability to defile and corrupt his word??
..or is that part of 'his' plan for all of us? ...which brings me to the question of how can man-in-the-sky, the all-knowing, PLAN to have his intentions derailed, by something as insufferable and negligible as human culture?


i hope you realise that you admitted the bible is a twisted work brewed in the minds of mortals with a different agenda than a morality tirade enforced by jealous imaginary folk.
i also hope you realise YOU and megadoc1 are STILL quoting scriptures...i'm lost because of this too i admit.

lets discuss, morality, origin of species, origin of space/time, consciousness etc...and leave the pulpit bs out, i'll show you that god isn't needed to understand any of this...and the actual explanations are a bit more awe-inspiring, breath-taking and mind-expanding than any church/temple story book can provide...

[wagonrunner]

Razkal

[nismotrinidappa]

bluefete, if "religion uses god to poison everything", then why the daffodil you guys keep referring to bible passages, proof of the bibles deistic origin?? isn't the bible a religious text? or (honest question) are you that brain washed into thinking man-in-the-sky (mits) REALLY gave humans the text?

Let's see now. Various religious sects over the centuries, and even up to today, have used the Bible, Qu'ran, Gita, Upanishads and other religious books to prop up their hidden agendas.

Example, some body decided that the "Rapture" (2 people would be in the filed, one would be taken and the other left) would be a good theme to build a church. So today we have preachers telling people about the "rapture". The truth is totally different.

God gave the Word. Men twist His truth. Thus religion uses God but not in the way God intended.

god made man in his image.
god gave man the word.
man twisted the gospel for his own needs.
god did not intend for this.


so this four part series of events has me confused; the all-knowing and infallible created creations, gave them specific orders to lead god-fearing lives and did not foresee his creatures ability to defile and corrupt his word??
..or is that part of 'his' plan for all of us? ...which brings me to the question of how can man-in-the-sky, the all-knowing, PLAN to have his intentions derailed, by something as insufferable and negligible as human culture?


i hope you realise that you admitted the bible is a twisted work brewed in the minds of mortals with a different agenda than a morality tirade enforced by jealous imaginary folk.
i also hope you realise YOU and megadoc1 are STILL quoting scriptures...i'm lost because of this too i admit.

lets discuss, morality, origin of species, origin of space/time, consciousness etc...and leave the pulpit bs out, i'll show you that god isn't needed to understand any of this...and the actual explanations are a bit more awe-inspiring, breath-taking and mind-expanding than any church/temple story book can provide...

god made man in his image.yes
god gave man the word.yes
man twisted the gospel for his own needs.yes
god did not intend for this.yes


so this four part series of events has me confused; the all-knowing and infallible created creations, gave them specific orders to lead god-fearing lives and did not foresee his creatures ability to defile and corrupt his word??
yes.. Dear razkal..not all the scripture is twisted...this is why the study of scripture is important.. different people will give different accounts of the same event.
..or is that part of 'his' plan for all of us? ...which brings me to the question of how can man-in-the-sky, the all-knowing, PLAN to have his intentions derailed, by something as insufferable and negligible as human culture?its called free will dear razkal. listen and listen good. God is not big and bad as people think. he is a loving god.. he does not force anybody to do anything.he wants you to choose to come to him of your own free will. some choose and some dont.in the end he knows what will happen. but life is not stagnant but ever changing and ever moving.. so your destiny can be changed each second...and each second god knows the final outcome.... just by you sitting down to read my post, whether you find it makes sense to you or not. can delay you one more minute and cause you to not be parked up at that traffic light waiting for it to change when the truck decides to break that light and you be alive tomorrow. yea thats how gods works in everyones life even though some do not accept or realize.

[Razkal]

so my free will trumps god's doings/intentions and all he can do is know the final outcome?

if my will is free then why does he have a plan for me?

if he knows some will choose him and some won't, what happens to the blasphemous unbelievers like mg and myself in the "end"? does this premise not undermine the idea of an "all loving" god?

god is a loving god that allowed the crusades to occur in his name and mindless slaughter of un-christian folk to be attributed to his will? what good was ultimately achieved from that era? or the holocaust? what about 'him' permitting mentally unstable folk throughout history to commit heinous crimes against fellow humans, who chalked their actions up to god's instruction?

study of scripture is important, historically important...and only that. people need to know how religions formed, why they were orchestrated, the importance of religion in the formative years of human society and even its contributions to scholarly endeavors.

it is also important to know why religious doctrine is no longer necessary to explain the origin of all things; matter, species, space, time, morality, consciouses, altruistic behaviour etc. i honestly, truly and unshakably believe that understanding, even in part, the beauty and elegant simplicity of evolution and various cosmological theories, leaves almost no room, in your mind to fit deistic 'philosophy'...

[Razkal]

funny that the vid i posted is narrated by morgan freeman. i'm convinced if god exists, he IS morgan freeman, or looks and sounds just like him lol

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

i'm convinced if god exists, he IS morgan freeman, or looks and sounds just like him lol

I can agree with that!

[devrat]

I disagree........James Earl Jones....thats god's voice

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

so you are saying that religious texts twist the word of God in translation, yet you keep quoting from the bible.

Note that God does not discriminate among his children.

so why do some people have disabilities?

Boss - Hear dis nuh. "Religious texts do not twist the word of God in translation". People twist the word of God for their own ends.

To answer your next question - "Why do some people have disabilities?" -

"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from birth. And his disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." John 9:1-3

bluefete do you listen to yourself?

in one post you say it was God's will for the People's Partnership to win the election.
Then in another post you say man has free will, even to go against God's will.
Then in another post you say that "God does not discriminate among his children."
Then right after that you say that inequalities in men are the work of God.

So at which point do you plan to show us some coherence?

[nismotrinidappa]

so my free will trumps god's doings/intentions and all he can do is know the final outcome? yes.. thats why is called free willl.. he gave you a choice.... a choice to do the right thing ..he wants you to do right

if my will is free then why does he have a plan for me? look at this example. your mother has a plan for you... she wanted you to grow up and be a big boy eat your veggies and be healthy. she wanted you to go to school and study hard.. she wanted you to go to univresity and get a degree in a good field.. she wanted you to get married and have a family and give her grandkids... in all she wants you to be happy. so she does have a plan for you.
however she not going to stand up in front uwi gate to make sure you go to class, and go tabaquite and bring home a nice thick sweet betiwho makin a wicked takari for you to marry. right? you have the free will to go to class or to play the ass... its the same principle.. yes god has a plan ..and you have the choice.

if he knows some will choose him and some won't, what happens to the blasphemous unbelievers like mg and myself in the "end"? does this premise not undermine the idea of an "all loving" god?
no it does not.. as much as he loves you.. he gave you the choice all the years of your life to turn to him...and you didnt... your choice...you burn to learn..

he is an all loving god.. and it does hurt him to see unbeleievers fall short. its not like he is laughing" arite b*itches go to hell now !" thats why he keeps trying to reach out through his people to help the unbelievers accept him as the Saviour.

god is a loving god that allowed the crusades to occur in his name and mindless slaughter of un-christian folk to be attributed to his will? what good was ultimately achieved from that era? or the holocaust? what about 'him' permitting mentally unstable folk throughout history to commit heinous crimes against fellow humans, who chalked their actions up to god's instruction?

study of scripture is important, historically important...and only that. people need to know how religions formed, why they were orchestrated, the importance of religion in the formative years of human society and even its contributions to scholarly endeavors.
study of scripture will help you understand yourself, and your fellow man..and what life is all about. its about the past present and future.. not just HISTORY.

it is also important to know why religious doctrine is no longer necessary to explain the origin of all things; matter, species, space, time, morality, consciouses, altruistic behaviour etc. i honestly, truly and unshakably believe that understanding, even in part, the beauty and elegant simplicity of evolution and various cosmological theories, leaves almost no room, in your mind to fit deistic 'philosophy'....
who gives you the "understanding"? a scientific coincidence of mix up chemicals and matter in your head called a brain? is best i start researching some chemicals and matter in a glass jar and teach it to sing lol.

i understand your point of view... but in my belief god cannot be denied and you cannot leave out your "deistic philosophy" out of your research. take it with a grain of salt if you will... but dont ignore it.
regards

[megadoc1]

so you are saying that religious texts twist the word of God in translation, yet you keep quoting from the bible.

Note that God does not discriminate among his children.

so why do some people have disabilities?

Boss - Hear dis nuh. "Religious texts do not twist the word of God in translation". People twist the word of God for their own ends.

To answer your next question - "Why do some people have disabilities?" -

"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from birth. And his disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." John 9:1-3

bluefete do you listen to yourself?

in one post you say it was God's will for the People's Partnership to win the election.
true but as evident in the world today God doesn't always gets his way because
of mans free will
Then in another post you say man has free will, even to go against God's will.
this is true and answered above
Then in another post you say that "God does not discriminate among his children."
this line should quote "God favors no man " Gods children are those who are born in spirit Gal. 3:26 states, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
Then right after that you say that inequalities in men are the work of God.
this this statement is not correct.
the inequalities in men are not the works of God
but the works of God are what God does concerning the disability as seen in the next verse Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Joh 9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
Joh 9:7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

can we agree on that?


So at which point do you plan to show us some coherence?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

can we agree on that?

Yes I agree that is what you believe.
No I do not agree that bluefete is coherent.

my question was not at faith, it was only at bluefete's logic.

[sMASH]

I disagree........James Earl Jones....thats god's voice

omggg.. omfggggggg... darth vader

[bluefete]

bluefete, if "religion uses god to poison everything", then why the daffodil you guys keep referring to bible passages, proof of the bibles deistic origin?? isn't the bible a religious text? or (honest question) are you that brain washed into thinking man-in-the-sky (mits) REALLY gave humans the text?

Let's see now. Various religious sects over the centuries, and even up to today, have used the Bible, Qu'ran, Gita, Upanishads and other religious books to prop up their hidden agendas.

Example, some body decided that the "Rapture" (2 people would be in the filed, one would be taken and the other left) would be a good theme to build a church. So today we have preachers telling people about the "rapture". The truth is totally different.

God gave the Word. Men twist His truth. Thus religion uses God but not in the way God intended.

god made man in his image.
god gave man the word.
man twisted the gospel for his own needs.
god did not intend for this.


so this four part series of events has me confused; the all-knowing and infallible created creations, gave them specific orders to lead god-fearing lives and did not foresee his creatures ability to defile and corrupt his word??
..or is that part of 'his' plan for all of us? ...which brings me to the question of how can man-in-the-sky, the all-knowing, PLAN to have his intentions derailed, by something as insufferable and negligible as human culture?


i hope you realise that you admitted the bible is a twisted work brewed in the minds of mortals with a different agenda than a morality tirade enforced by jealous imaginary folk.
i also hope you realise YOU and megadoc1 are STILL quoting scriptures...i'm lost because of this too i admit.

lets discuss, morality, origin of species, origin of space/time, consciousness etc...and leave the pulpit bs out, i'll show you that god isn't needed to understand any of this...and the actual explanations are a bit more awe-inspiring, breath-taking and mind-expanding than any church/temple story book can provide...

Oh Dear, Razkal.

The all knowing created his creations and gave them free will. That means he knew where this would have led. It confuses intellectuals that someone who is more intellectual then they are would allow his creations to willingly go down a road of destruction.

The bigger game plan, however, is to show the concept of forgiveness.

Try and look at this from a human perspective. How many parents can stop their "adult" children from exercising their "free will"? If a child chooses to use cocaine, for example, does the parent love that child less?

God allowed us to live with the consequences of our choices. However, he also made a way that allows us to be forgiven and to move closer to Him. That becomes our choice whether we want to do that or not. There are also consequences for that.

God also created angels and gave them free will as well. The end result was that 1/3 of the heavenly host rebelled and followed Lucifer. There were consequences for them too.

The end result of all these discussions is quite simple.

Either death is the end of everything and there is no resurrection in which case we can do all the wickedness we want OR at some point after we die, we will rise (no pun intended) spiritually and have to give an account of our earthly deeds.

In which case real 2NR's will be quaking at that time. Not so MGMan!!

I am quite willing to discuss morality, origin of the species and so on if you can answer me one question:

From where did the first living organism originate?

[sMASH]

wait, angels have free will? hmmn, which are better, angels or humans?

and i disagree with ur point, because of christian logic about we having to account for our earthly deeds.
gathered from christian logic, the only way u goin to heaven is by believing that jesus christ is the son of god. and the only way to go to hell is not believing that jesus christ is the son of god.

..."believe in the lord ur god jesus christ and have all you sins washed away, in the blood of the lamb"
therefore there is nothing to account for.

..."reject the lord ur god jesus christ, and suffer eternal damnation in the fires of h'ellllllllll"
therefore there is nor reason to give an account

[bluefete]

so my free will trumps god's doings/intentions and all he can do is know the final outcome?

if my will is free then why does he have a plan for me?

if he knows some will choose him and some won't, what happens to the blasphemous unbelievers like mg and myself in the "end"? does this premise not undermine the idea of an "all loving" god? The all loving God gave us free choice. Adam & Eve were given free choice. Moses told the children of Israel to choose between good and evil. God made it very clear to Adam (Eve was not along as yet) that there would be a terrible penalty for disobedience. By one man, sin came into the world and by one man we were redeemed. God's plan is for you to have eternal life. That means to live forever. You have the choice to forfeit that destiny.

god is a loving god that allowed the crusades to occur in his name and mindless slaughter of un-christian folk to be attributed to his will? what good was ultimately achieved from that era? or the holocaust? what about 'him' permitting mentally unstable folk throughout history to commit heinous crimes against fellow humans, who chalked their actions up to god's instruction? God's perfect plan is something we mortal humans will never understand. The holocaust is a reminder of what we can face in the future if we forget the past. Ask Uncle Patrick about that. People will always use God's name to try and justify their evil deeds. It is important to appreciate the time given to us in this life. It can be taken away at any time.

study of scripture is important, historically important...and only that. people need to know how religions formed, why they were orchestrated, the importance of religion in the formative years of human society and even its contributions to scholarly endeavors.

it is also important to know why religious doctrine is no longer necessary to explain the origin of all things; matter, species, space, time, morality, consciouses, altruistic behaviour etc. i honestly, truly and unshakably believe that understanding, even in part, the beauty and elegant simplicity of evolution and various cosmological theories, leaves almost no room, in your mind to fit deistic 'philosophy'...

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased." Daniel 12:4

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." Romans 1:22-25

Evolution can never explain the diversity of life from one single organism.!!