The Religion Discussion

[bluesclues]

Therefore, the supreme reward of this life is not to make the body immortal. But to have become an eternally living soul accepting that the flesh, must and will die. We are not to focus solely on escaping physical death. Preventing our soul from becoming extinguished after we die is THE most important thing in this entire life.

[bluesclues]

Romans 14:2 KJVS
[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Lol

the Quran corroborates the same view.

Surah 4:160
For wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We made unlawful for them [certain] good foods which had been lawful to them previously.

Is not the food u hadda be studyin. The Quran described the restricted food as 'good'.and yes i realize 'good' may pose some issue in translation to some. But either translation you use simply provides a new angle of looking at the same thing. Whether it be good or wholesome the idea being conveyed is 'rich' foods. Both meanings. 'Wholesome' as well as 'rich ppl food'. Allah conveys the idea of them atoning for their sins by obedience in restricting their pallate. Thus restricting them of a pleasure. Under the new covenant ushered in by jesus those restrictions would end... for HIS believers. Who believe he was sent to die for our sins, was born of a virgin, died and ressurected, and dwells with our father in Heaven.

[sMASH]

quote the exact sentence that shows that he was crucified... no explanation, just the quote.

[crock101]

Oh dear....

[bluesclues]

quote the exact sentence that shows that he was crucified... no explanation, just the quote.

There are numerous verses in the Quran which reference Jesus' Death.

Surah 3:55
Allah says to Jesus "I will cause you to die(1st death) and raise you up to myself"(saved from second death)

Surah 5:117
Allah caused Jesus to die(1st death) and then after Jesus dies he(spirit) is taken up by Allah.

Your root here in reference to surah 4 is in Jesus being taken up. It is clear, just as you said, and I said. Flesh cannot enter heaven. So to enter heaven, or be taken up by Allah, Jesus would have had to die first(1st death).

Crucifixion was the prefered method of execution of that people and time.

[sMASH]

quote the exact sentence that shows that he was crucified... no explanation, just the quote.

There are numerous verses in the Quran which reference Jesus' Death.

Surah 3:55
Allah says to Jesus "I will cause you to die(1st death) and raise you up to myself"(saved from second death)

Surah 5:117
Allah caused Jesus to die(1st death) and then after Jesus dies he(spirit) is taken up by Allah.

Your root here in reference to surah 4 is in Jesus being taken up. It is clear, just as you said, and I said. Flesh cannot enter heaven. So to enter heaven, or be taken up by Allah, Jesus would have had to die first(1st death).

Crucifixion was the prefered method of execution of that people and time.

what ever ur quoting from is false.. or u are injecting words that arent there, so u are false....

Surah 3:55
Allah says to Jesus "I will cause you to die(1st death) and raise you up to myself"(saved from second death)

3. Surah Ale-Imran (The Family of Imran)
55. And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve,

Surah 5:117
Allah caused Jesus to die(1st death) and then after Jesus dies he(spirit) is taken up by Allah.

5. Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread with Food)
17. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

the accepted tanslations does not say that jesus was killed, but us said that he was killed. u are deceitful.

yuh lying. dont be so dishonest and changing up articles to mislead people.

[bluesclues]

quote the exact sentence that shows that he was crucified... no explanation, just the quote.

There are numerous verses in the Quran which reference Jesus' Death.

Surah 3:55
Allah says to Jesus "I will cause you to die(1st death) and raise you up to myself"(saved from second death)

Surah 5:117
Allah caused Jesus to die(1st death) and then after Jesus dies he(spirit) is taken up by Allah.

Your root here in reference to surah 4 is in Jesus being taken up. It is clear, just as you said, and I said. Flesh cannot enter heaven. So to enter heaven, or be taken up by Allah, Jesus would have had to die first(1st death).

Crucifixion was the prefered method of execution of that people and time.

what ever ur quoting from is false.. or u are injecting words that arent there, so u are false....

Surah 3:55
Allah says to Jesus "I will cause you to die(1st death) and raise you up to myself"(saved from second death)

3. Surah Ale-Imran (The Family of Imran)
55. And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve,

Surah 5:117
Allah caused Jesus to die(1st death) and then after Jesus dies he(spirit) is taken up by Allah.

5. Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread with Food)
17. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

the accepted tanslations does not say that jesus was killed, but us said that he was killed. u are deceitful.

yuh lying. dont be so dishonest and changing up articles to mislead people.

No I'm not injecting. I'm just paraphrasing. What I said and what is found in the Quran is the same. I just didn't quote it word for word. Regarding the verses' original arabic translated we are left with the translation:

"Caused to die'
O Jesus, I will cause you to die (mutawaffi-ka) and raise you to Myself (rafi‘u-ka ilayya)" (3:55).

Jesus speaks:
‘When Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wast the Watcher over them’ (5:117)

[sMASH]

u changing up the words to reflect ur stance... that is lying.


blue, yuh is a damn liard!!!

blue, u must be honest...

[bluesclues]

u changing up the words to reflect ur stance... that is lying.


blue, yuh is a damn liard!!!

blue, u must be honest...

Nope it is not changed. I did that to provide you meaning. Paraphrasing to explain in one. You culd always go to the Quran and see the exact words of the verse. I did provide you the surah and verse numbers to check for yourself.

[sMASH]

and i checked, and that is "taken" not "killed".

[bluesclues]

and i checked, and that is "taken" not "killed".

O Jesus, I will cause you to die (mutawaffi-ka) and raise you to Myself (rafi‘u-ka ilayya)" (3:55).

mutawaffi-ka is the original arabic from the verse.

What does mutawaffi-ka mean in english?

[bluesclues]

As u will find mutawaffi-ka is used to refer to physical death(1st death). And there are a variety of ways in which this can be said in english for purposes of translation.

I don't want to deter you from strongly questioning me as u may. But remember Allah expects you to use reason. You should not be so quick to call me names

Yes calling me false is just as cursing a prophet. Lest you were to put urself in a position where Allah will set against you and dissmiss your false charges.

[bluesclues]

Here. This may be informative for u.
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/ ... utuwaffika

[sMASH]

take ur props, cause i nearly, just nearly didnt open this thread again... for the second time.


i will have to talk to some one who knows arabic, because with root words, and the conjugations, and the phrase constructions are hard for me




now, with my limited grasp of arabic, in the pic u will see the arabic, the english, and the arabic transliteration(that will show u how to pronounce the arabic).
the common features in the both phrases are the letters 'mu' and the letters 'taw'. both phrases are conjugated to have nearly the same amount of syllables. the vowel on the last letters make them rhyme when repeated
i.e. 'muttawaffika' and 'mawtatuna'

the 'a' sound at the end of the phrase is because of the letter 'alif' in 'mautatuna' and vowel attached to the letter 'kaf' in 'muttawaffika'



i cannot say that u are wrong,



but on the surface, both phrases dont seem similar enough. the differences could be because of the added words to form the phrase, and the root words can be the same. but again, they look very different, to not be the same thing.


the thing i can draw reference to are the words 'cabbage' and 'garbage', both sound the same, look the same, but are very different in intended meaning and the derived roots.

[bluesclues]

take ur props, cause i nearly, just nearly didnt open this thread again... for the second time.


i will have to talk to some one who knows arabic, because with root words, and the conjugations, and the phrase constructions are hard for me




now, with my limited grasp of arabic, in the pic u will see the arabic, the english, and the arabic transliteration(that will show u how to pronounce the arabic).
the common features in the both phrases are the letters 'mu' and the letters 'taw'. both phrases are conjugated to have nearly the same amount of syllables. the vowel on the last letters make them rhyme when repeated
i.e. 'muttawaffika' and 'mawtatuna'

the 'a' sound at the end of the phrase is because of the letter 'alif' in 'mautatuna' and vowel attached to the letter 'kaf' in 'muttawaffika'



i cannot say that u are wrong,



but on the surface, both phrases dont seem similar enough. the differences could be because of the added words to form the phrase, and the root words can be the same. but again, they look very different, to not be the same thing.


the thing i can draw reference to are the words 'cabbage' and 'garbage', both sound the same, look the same, but are very different in intended meaning and the derived roots.

In the last link I posted on the grammar issue is explained thoroughly on the bottom section of page 12-13 of the document. Also do not ignore the writing above the cover page.

Also take note that wafat/wafar/vaffat occurs at least 25 times in the quran and in each instance it was translated as 'caused to die'. Except for this one verse the original translation of the Quran had 'caused to die'.. and it was changed later on to say 'taken'. The document is worth solid study.

But it all matters not. In the same respect that a murderer may 'take someone's life', which is a saying that is well known and used.. 'taken up' in this case still means nothing other than 'to cause death to.' A requirement of all men including the prophets. All must die the first death.

The major issue is in defending How Jesus could be alive yet was killed. This as a muslim u struggle with as i am now taking time with you to explain what death means to a God. And the difference between what it means to a human.

Furthermore, Jesus himself speaks of his death in surah 19:33

"So peace is on me the day i was born, the day that i die, and the day that i shall be raised to life again(resurrected).

Understand and believe. Jesus did not run away from his fate. He knew what Allah sent him to do and he came for that reason. Adding greater meaning to 'cause' in the statement 'caused to die". As in.. Jesus' cause, or his 'purpose', included or required death, upon cmpletion of his task and term. It all ties in.

But taking your view you will find many cntradictions in the Quran that can very much... stunt your spiritual growth.

[HSA]

the original arabic to english translation has the word ascend.....later versions changed the word to die to mislead the population.....

if you want to be most authentic, take the oldest translations as it would be closer to the source instead of newer ones....

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

later versions changed the word to die to mislead the population.....

for what reason?

[bluesclues]

the original arabic to english translation has the word ascend.....later versions changed the word to die to mislead the population.....

if you want to be most authentic, take the oldest translations as it would be closer to the source instead of newer ones....

So in order to defend a poor translation chosen out of ignorance and corruption to cause difference between christians and muslims you prefer to admit that the Quran has been changed?

In any case. To ascend, one has to die. There is no 2 ways about it. To enter heaven u must first be dead. Death meaning the departure of the soul from the body. the body stays behind.

and note. utilizing my view.. it can be said that the quran has not changed since then. because i extrapolate all the translations showing that they all are different ways of saying the same thing.

if a translation says one thing and another says something completely different... you have misunderstood. the Quran does not contradict itself.. neither does the bible.

[HSA]

The arabic did not change nor will it ever will....

Translations are subjective depending on the person doing the translation....

Example....if i say a woman is big

Some may think i mean fat...others will think its tall...i hope you get my point

[HSA]

later versions changed the word to die to mislead the population.....

for what reason?

Muslims believe jesus was taken up body and all....and he will return, body and all to finally die


Die and ascend are to different meanings....it cannot be misinterpreted.....

[bluesclues]

later versions changed the word to die to mislead the population.....

for what reason?

Some Muslims assume without knowledge that jesus was taken up body and all....and he will return, body and all to finally die


Die and ascend are to different meanings....it cannot be misinterpreted.....

Fix0red.

Juggle with someone else. Explain how one can ascend into heaven without dying. Body and all went through the gates. Even though flesh isnt allwed into heaven.

U are even further behind than smash.

[sMASH]

the original arabic to english translation has the word ascend.....later versions changed the word to die to mislead the population.....

if you want to be most authentic, take the oldest translations as it would be closer to the source instead of newer ones....

To be fair blues come with something a lot more notable than just saying the translation is different. He actually posted the phrases.
I don't know Arabic, and need to consult someone good in Arabic, to confirm the root words,


But, even the root may be the same, the conjugation would lead the meaning to be different.

But anyway. I have work to do.


@Duane, the reason why persons would intentionally mistranslate anything, is to lead people astray. The example here is that although it is vehemently stated over and over that Jesus didn't die at the crucifixion, and just as emphasized that the people who conducted the crucifixion were misled to think they killed Jesus but they actually didnt, we have a word that is singled out that might possibly mean 'die' even though the accepted translation is 'removed'or 'taken' from this world.

That little hint of misdirection could be used to show other people, and have them confused. Because they would read that the crucifiers killed the wrong person, yet read that Jesus did die.


Obviously it would be confusing. U know, like the father is greater than I, yet he and I are one...

[HSA]

Tell me how is it possible to heal blindness?? Deafness?? Leprosy?? Jesus did it by God's permission and anything is possible by the will of the almighty..

[bluesclues]

When yuh get marrid. It does have 2 ppl on the alter. How dem does become one after marriage? The priest does fuse them genetically into some kinda hermaphrodite or?

[sMASH]

What alter? Yuh bussin throat right there and then?!!!

Alter is a Greco Roman ting Hoss.

[bluesclues]

What alter? Yuh bussin throat right there and then?!!!

Alter is a Greco Roman ting Hoss.

Yeah.. 'to' comes after the number 1 too.

[eitech]

Bump for a good thread revived. Lol.
My word. I now see why many ppl miss the mark of salvation. So simple yet make it so complicated.

Colossians 2:8 KJVS
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[matr1x]

Christianity is the religion of the slave masters. Only simple minded people would gravitate to it after being in slavery. Well afro trinity are simple minded as you get

[eitech]

Take comfort in knowing that in the final analysis, u will find out the truth, whether u believe it now or not.

[Slartibartfast]

the Quran does not contradict itself.. neither does the bible.

I lol'd because I already showed you that the bible literally starts contradicting itself from page one on this forum.