The Religion Discussion

[Kewell35]

The Hadiths are not the Quran. The Quran has no quotes from the Bible. If you read my discussions with the Muslims here, it is the fact that the Quran falsely claims that the Torah and Gospel corroborates it, is one of the biggest evidences against Islam.

The 2nd commandment (Exodus 20) was not punishable by death.




You are bad with science but you are worst with theology.

Dude it's Exodus 20:4 and Muslims do believe the Old Testament is the word of God and hasn't been corrupted.

[Habit7]

The Hadiths are not the Quran. The Quran has no quotes from the Bible. If you read my discussions with the Muslims here, it is the fact that the Quran falsely claims that the Torah and Gospel corroborates it, is one of the biggest evidences against Islam.

The 2nd commandment (Exodus 20) was not punishable by death.




You are bad with science but you are worst with theology.

Dude it's Exodus 20:4 and Muslims do believe the Old Testament is the word of God and hasn't been corrupted.

Yes Exodus 20 has all the 10 Commandments but no Muslim dont accept the Old Testament. The Quran says the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible/Pentateuch/Books of Moses), the Psalms of David and the Gospel of Jesus are the word of God. We know what those books were at the time of Muhammad as they are the same as today, but Muslims would either say that we're corrupted or their true version no longer exists today.

Nevertheless Muslims don't think that the 39 books of the Old Testament are the word of God and some believe it has been corrupted

[Kewell35]

The Hadiths are not the Quran. The Quran has no quotes from the Bible. If you read my discussions with the Muslims here, it is the fact that the Quran falsely claims that the Torah and Gospel corroborates it, is one of the biggest evidences against Islam.

The 2nd commandment (Exodus 20) was not punishable by death.




You are bad with science but you are worst with theology.

Dude it's Exodus 20:4 and Muslims do believe the Old Testament is the word of God and hasn't been corrupted.

Yes Exodus 20 has all the 10 Commandments but no Muslim dont accept the Old Testament. The Quran says the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible/Pentateuch/Books of Moses), the Psalms of David and the Gospel of Jesus are the word of God. We know what those books were at the time of Muhammad as they are the same as today, but Muslims would either say that we're corrupted or their true version no longer exists today.

Nevertheless Muslims don't think that the 39 books of the Old Testament are the word of God and some believe it has been corrupted

True. The Old Testament does contain more books. But they do consider Exodus to be the word of God and not corrupted right?

[MD Marketers]

The Hadiths are not the Quran. The Quran has no quotes from the Bible. If you read my discussions with the Muslims here, it is the fact that the Quran falsely claims that the Torah and Gospel corroborates it, is one of the biggest evidences against Islam.

The 2nd commandment (Exodus 20) was not punishable by death.




You are bad with science but you are worst with theology.

Dude it's Exodus 20:4 and Muslims do believe the Old Testament is the word of God and hasn't been corrupted.

Yes Exodus 20 has all the 10 Commandments but no Muslim dont accept the Old Testament. The Quran says the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible/Pentateuch/Books of Moses), the Psalms of David and the Gospel of Jesus are the word of God. We know what those books were at the time of Muhammad as they are the same as today, but Muslims would either say that we're corrupted or their true version no longer exists today.

Nevertheless Muslims don't think that the 39 books of the Old Testament are the word of God and some believe it has been corrupted

The Qur'an has never condemned the Torah in it's original form. It upholds it. However, the Qur'an does state that the Torah has been corrupted over time and it was not referring to a future version but of the past.
Islamic scholars believe the Quran didn't bring a new way of life but simply re-iterated what was written before as revealed by God.
Muslims don't believe in a changing God, only changing circumstances in which they should use the Qur'an as a guide.
A guide isn't a law. The Quran has never made the claim of it being a law, however there are certain laws referenced to in the Qur'an which has been referenced to in the books which came before it.

[Kewell35]

However, the Qur'an does state that the Torah has been corrupted over time and it was not referring to a future version but of the past.

Source?

[Habit7]

Yes MD Marketers, what is your source for that?

True. The Old Testament does contain more books. But they do consider Exodus to be the word of God and not corrupted right?

They believe that there once was a Torah that was the word of God and uncorrupted. But now they believe it no longer exists.

Christians, as evident from Dspike's rantings, have also done this. The difference is that the knowledge has been lost or corrupted and the one's on the right path were executed centuries ago. Now they seem to have their flock in awe of their putrid ideas. The core of their belief system is based on philosophic ideas. How come the Jews don't have this also? Because they held fast to their scriptures (Torah), although they changed some laws to suit their desires. However they maintained the correct concept of GOD, well most of them.

you mentioned plural ...the Torah and Injeel mentioned in the Quran refer to the pure, un-corrupted, unchanged revelation given to Moses and Jesus. What you have in your bible is not that!

[nareshseep]

The Bible, Torahs, Quran, Bhagavad Gita etc. are all story books each based on a different imaginary god.

[crock101]

Ok habit.. please tell me what is the punishment for breaking the 2nd commandment , according to you.


here is someone elses take on it

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=16785

[Habit7]

What is your point? It seems that you have a conclusion about the Bible and you are now looking for a verse, no matter the context, to substantiate it.

And just like how megadoc1 already showed you were wrong about 'theory', I already showed you punishments are limited to the Israeli nation of that time viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=20940#p9032860 . Nevertheless, right after Moses received the 10 Commandments he came down from the mountain and found his older brother Aaron leading the ppl of Israel in a mass worship to a golden calf that he made, in direct violation of the 2nd commandment. He didn't kill his brother.

You are yet to answer my question, if you were an back then, on what moral standard would you say those Mosaic laws were wrong?

[Habit7]

What is your point? It seems that you have a conclusion about the Bible and you are now looking for a verse, no matter the context, to substantiate it.

And just like how megadoc1 already showed you were wrong about 'theory', I already showed you punishments are limited to the Israeli nation of that time viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=20940#p9032860 . Nevertheless, right after Moses received the 10 Commandments he came down from the mountain and found his older brother Aaron leading the ppl of Israel in a mass worship to a golden calf that he made, in direct violation of the 2nd commandment. He didn't kill his brother.

You are yet to answer my question, if you were an back then, on what moral standard would you say those Mosaic laws were wrong?

[crock101]

I am not wrong about the word theory, you and your pals are using the word theory when you should be saying hypothesis.
My morals are easily better than those proposed by your storybook, as are the morals of most of the people here, why you even try to defend the horrendous things this storybook asks of us is odd to say the least.
A murderer is always a murderer, rapist is always a rapist and a pedophile is always a pedophile, no matter what era you happen to commit your crime.you keep trying to say that these criminals aren't criminals because of the era they lived in .This is unacceptable.

[MD Marketers]

What is your point? It seems that you have a conclusion about the Bible and you are now looking for a verse, no matter the context, to substantiate it.

And just like how megadoc1 already showed you were wrong about 'theory', I already showed you punishments are limited to the Israeli nation of that time viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=20940#p9032860 . Nevertheless, right after Moses received the 10 Commandments he came down from the mountain and found his older brother Aaron leading the ppl of Israel in a mass worship to a golden calf that he made, in direct violation of the 2nd commandment. He didn't kill his brother.

You are yet to answer my question, if you were an back then, on what moral standard would you say those Mosaic laws were wrong?

Habit could I ask you something?
Supposing that everything stated in the Bible is exactly as you said it is.
Could you give me one good reason why I would consider the crucifixion of Jesus as a sacrifice from God that I should be grateful for?
I have been having this discussion with every Jehovah witness that ever ventures to my door steps and every time it happens they never give me an answer and they never return to finish the discussion either.
Of course I am assuming here that you too believe that Jesus death is a sacrifice from God.

[bluesclues]

The Bible, Torahs, Quran, Bhagavad Gita etc. are all story books each based on a different imaginary god.

Is the same god all of them talkin about. All them people was in egypt/sumeria region at one point in time and each different peoples took a perspective of the teachings with them to their new settlements. Egypt holds the connection to all the religions, and then egypt finds its source in sumeria. so based on both archaeological and biblical history, the teachings began in sumeria, spread to egypt and east asia and the north. then many peoples returned from their lands to egypt either as rulers or slaves and became teachers or students there. when they left they took their teaching with them again.

sumerian/babylonian, asian, egyptian, indian, arab, caucasian(norse/arab), greek, roman is all brothers and sisters under one and the same God. from all the races were jews either under the covenant by choice or as slaves under their slavemaster. its just that as environment changed and objectives were met, new objectives were created and some people did not want to stop doing the old thing in the name of tradition. when that became to the detriment of evolutionary progress the people were considered pagan, invaded converted or killed. those same people were once doing the right thing for the right reason until it became wrong through unneccesity.

plenty people dont understand this. pagan practices were once condoned by God even instructed by him because they were necessary to meet the objectives of the plan for mankind. but when God say 'ok stop that now you finish, come now and build this'. and they refuse, they became disobeyers and their culture weakened by corruption of purpose.

every last God on the planet is of the same God they talkin about.

culture A called God 'Dan'. culture b called God 'Nad', when culture A stop listenin they get invaded by culture B and merge together to call God 'NadDan'. they didnt tief anyting because both learn bout God from their parent culture... culture 'x' who called God 'Dag'.

the fight has always been to keep the teachings pure and follow purpose as the culture that did so would be the strongest and most resillient in a changing environment. but there is no real separation, everybody is one family.

even the navajo indians of america and east indians of india are the same people. coming from the same family. and the evidence of the link between them is found in the shiva lingam and other aspects of their beliefs. showing that they were both in the same place at some point in history, just like everyone was.. of all races.

[crock101]

Bluesclues .. you are genuinely starting to scare me now.where do you get this stuff?

[Habit7]

MD Marketers, read Isaiah 53 and get back to me.

[MD Marketers]

Bluesclues .. you are genuinely starting to scare me now.where do you get this stuff?

Ethiopian orthodox churches most likely. I think some call it another name.
They also believe in a leader who has a better brain than ours because it is assumed that MRI scans show brain activity in a section of the brain that we never use.
I think Bluesclues equates himself to the same qualities of said leader but in a more humble way.
For now that is.
Their headquarters used to be close to the traffic lights at mount hope.
I attended a few sessions about 8 years ago & lost interest due to failure for them to provide any evidence for their claims except that I need to read between the lines of totally unrelated coincidents.
They have long since moved their headquarters I think.

I don't condemn their belief as impossible but in light of any clear supporting evidence I cannot accept it either.

[MD Marketers]

MD Marketers, read Isaiah 53 and get back to me.

Isiah 53:

Isaiah 53New International Version (NIV)

53 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

Such a time wasted response due to your inability to directly answer the question.
I get the suffering and apparent desire to redeem us of our sins part, but it does not address the question I asked.
I don't see this great sacrifice from God that normally brings Christians to their life changing epiphanies.
Wherein lies the sacrifice. What did God sacrifice that we should owe him our eternal gratitude?
Without a sacrifice Christianity has no value with regards to redemption and salvation.

From the Cambridge dictionary:
Sacrifice:
The act of giving up something that is ​valuable to you in ​order to ​help someone ​else.

What did God give up that was valuable to him?

[Habit7]

MD Marketers, read Isaiah 53 and get back to me.

Isiah 53:

Isaiah 53New International Version (NIV)

53 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

Such a time wasted response due to your inability to directly answer the question.
I get the suffering and apparent desire to redeem us of our sins part, but it does not address the question I asked.
I don't see this great sacrifice from God that normally brings Christians to their life changing epiphanies.
Wherein lies the sacrifice. What did God sacrifice that we should owe him our eternal gratitude?
Without a sacrifice Christianity has no value with regards to redemption and salvation.

From the Cambridge dictionary:
Sacrifice:
The act of giving up something that is ​valuable to you in ​order to ​help someone ​else.

What did God give up that was valuable to him?

I can see why you are oblivious to it because the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthian 1:18). In Isaiah 53 we have a 700 year prophecy of God providing a suffering servant not just to suffer on a cross, thousands of Jews were crucified, but one to absorb the wrath we deserved. Christians esteem and love Christ because through God’s law can see that we have lied, stolen, blasphemed, lusted, committed idolatry and broken every other one of God’s moral law. Every other religion tells you to be good and you might receive God’s forgiveness. Christianity says justice has to be served, and the punishment for our sins is eternal because we have sinned against an eternally worthy God.

But God, being rich in mercy, chose to love us even when we didn’t love him. God being one in being, three in person, the Father sent the Son to be that suffering servant of Isaiah 53, so that God alone will receive the praise. Jesus lived that sinless perfect life that we were supposed to live and He went up on the cross, not just to be tortured by Romans, but for God the Father to pour out His wrath on the Son as a sacrifice for those He came to saved. He cried out it is finish and gave up His earthly life. Three days later He rose from the dead demonstrating His victory over the grave.

Thus Christians are those who understand their sinfulness and moral indebtedness to holy God, but have received forgiveness, justification and sanctification from God through the sacrifice of Jesus in their place for the punishment they deserved. In addition, Christians receive new spiritual life even as Christ resurrected to new life having all their sins forgiven. This means that true Christians live lives of perpetual holiness and though at times may falter, they will not apostatise.

[MD Marketers]

MD Marketers, read Isaiah 53 and get back to me.

Isiah 53:

Isaiah 53New International Version (NIV)

53 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

Such a time wasted response due to your inability to directly answer the question.
I get the suffering and apparent desire to redeem us of our sins part, but it does not address the question I asked.
I don't see this great sacrifice from God that normally brings Christians to their life changing epiphanies.
Wherein lies the sacrifice. What did God sacrifice that we should owe him our eternal gratitude?
Without a sacrifice Christianity has no value with regards to redemption and salvation.

From the Cambridge dictionary:
Sacrifice:
The act of giving up something that is ​valuable to you in ​order to ​help someone ​else.

What did God give up that was valuable to him?

I can see why you are oblivious to it because the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthian 1:18). In Isaiah 53 we have a 700 year prophecy of God providing a suffering servant not just to suffer on a cross, thousands of Jews were crucified, but one to absorb the wrath we deserved. Christians esteem and love Christ because through God’s law can see that we have lied, stolen, blasphemed, lusted, committed idolatry and broken every other one of God’s moral law. Every other religion tells you to be good and you might receive God’s forgiveness. Christianity says justice has to be served, and the punishment for our sins is eternal because we have sinned against an eternally worthy God.

But God, being rich in mercy, chose to love us even when we didn’t love him. God being one in being, three in person, the Father sent the Son to be that suffering servant of Isaiah 53, so that God alone will receive the praise. Jesus lived that sinless perfect life that we were supposed to live and He went up on the cross, not just to be tortured by Romans, but for God the Father to pour out His wrath on the Son as a sacrifice for those He came to saved. He cried out it is finish and gave up His earthly life. Three days later He rose from the dead demonstrating His victory over the grave.

Thus Christians are those who understand their sinfulness and moral indebtedness to holy God, but have received forgiveness, justification and sanctification from God through the sacrifice of Jesus in their place for the punishment they deserved. In addition, Christians receive new spiritual life even as Christ resurrected to new life having all their sins forgiven. This means that true Christians live lives of perpetual holiness and though at times may falter, they will not apostatise.

Why would you assume I don't understand it due to a lack of belief?
Have you ever tested this theory?
Does your god explicitly say that non believers will never understand what he is trying to say?
Where is it written in the Bible?
Do you put words into your own God's mouth?
Do you blaspheme your own God?

Failure to show just one verse that explicitly denies non believers the privilege of understanding shows that even your own world view is unsupported by your religious doctrines.
It shows that you do not preach the doctrine of the Bible but rather the doctrine of Habit.

I know of many Christian scholars that would condemn your concept of privileged understanding.
It would seem you do not speak on behalf of Christianity but only on behalf of Habit7..

[Habit7]

Well I did quote 1 Corinthians 1:18 in my previous post.

But if you want more let's look at the next chapter:
For to us (Christians) God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:10-16

[MD Marketers]

Well I did quote 1 Corinthians 1:18 in my previous post.

But if you want more let's look at the next chapter:
For to us (Christians) God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:10-16

You are assuming therefore that any & everything that we do not understand must be a matter of the spiritual realm.
The verse does not imply that. It simply states that matters pertaining to the spiritual realm are unrecognizable to the natural man (he who lacks true spirituality).

You have yet to show me:
How would a natural man achieve a life changing epiphany that is centered around a sacrifice that never occurred.
If your dad said he sacrificed his left hand to save your life even when he still has a fully functioning left hand would you still go round telling people his sacrifice saved your life?
The hand is still there, so for you to go about telling people he sacrificed "his left hand" is just pure dishonesty.
I'm not disagreeing that there was some sort of sacrifice involved but it's quite obvious it wasn't his left hand.
Even after you describe what exactly was the true sacrifice it would not carry the same meaning of "the left hand" as far as the English language is concerned.

What you attempt to say is that our inability to comprehend what a "left hand" is, is why we don't truly understand what he is trying to say.

It's not our inability to understand, it's his inability to properly define what he thinks a "left hand" is that confuses us.

The problem does not lie with the natural man, it lies with God's refusal to use natural languages to communicate.
What is even more astonishing is when you somehow found out what your "dad" really meant to say you still cannot explain it to anyone else.

I have developed a simple test to determine if understanding of the sacrifice is only for those who believe.
Surely there is no verse of the bible that states that spiritual understanding cannot be communicated amongst other spiritual beings such as yourself?

Here is the test:
Write down what you think was the sacrifice.
Have others whom you believe are also spiritual men also write down this same meaning.
When you are done share that info amongst yourself.
If they all match then it means you have all achieved the meaning of what was sacrificed.

Since a non believer is never going to understand what the sacrifice is I am not going to ask you to reveal the answer but rather to reveal what it is not.

It may not help me know what it is but at the very least it might help me understand what it is not.

Is this too much to ask of you my Chiristian friend?

Surely there is no verse of the Bible that prohibits the dissemination of non spiritual understanding.
Or am I mistaken about this as well?

[Habit7]

You could keep that goal post shifting babble for bluesclues. I'm out.

[MD Marketers]

You could keep that goal post shifting babble for bluesclues. I'm out.

Let it be known henceforth I am the only user thus far to cause Habit7 to run from an argument based solely on his own flawed logic.

This is the post that has done it:

Well I did quote 1 Corinthians 1:18 in my previous post.

But if you want more let's look at the next chapter:
For to us (Christians) God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:10-16

You are assuming therefore that any & everything that we do not understand must be a matter of the spiritual realm.
The verse does not imply that. It simply states that matters pertaining to the spiritual realm are unrecognizable to the natural man (he who lacks true spirituality).

You have yet to show me:
How would a natural man achieve a life changing epiphany that is centered around a sacrifice that never occurred.
If your dad said he sacrificed his left hand to save your life even when he still has a fully functioning left hand would you still go round telling people his sacrifice saved your life?
The hand is still there, so for you to go about telling people he sacrificed "his left hand" is just pure dishonesty.
I'm not disagreeing that there was some sort of sacrifice involved but it's quite obvious it wasn't his left hand.
Even after you describe what exactly was the true sacrifice it would not carry the same meaning of "the left hand" as far as the English language is concerned.

What you attempt to say is that our inability to comprehend what a "left hand" is, is why we don't truly understand what he is trying to say.

It's not our inability to understand, it's his inability to properly define what he thinks a "left hand" is that confuses us.

The problem does not lie with the natural man, it lies with God's refusal to use natural languages to communicate.
What is even more astonishing is when you somehow found out what your "dad" really meant to say you still cannot explain it to anyone else.

I have developed a simple test to determine if understanding of the sacrifice is only for those who believe.
Surely there is no verse of the bible that states that spiritual understanding cannot be communicated amongst other spiritual beings such as yourself?

Here is the test:
Write down what you think was the sacrifice.
Have others whom you believe are also spiritual men also write down this same meaning.
When you are done share that info amongst yourself.
If they all match then it means you have all achieved the meaning of what was sacrificed.

Since a non believer is never going to understand what the sacrifice is I am not going to ask you to reveal the answer but rather to reveal what it is not.

It may not help me know what it is but at the very least it might help me understand what it is not.

Is this too much to ask of you my Chiristian friend?

Surely there is no verse of the Bible that prohibits the dissemination of non spiritual understanding.
Or am I mistaken about this as well?

This is what happens when you actually find someone willing to thouroughly read the verses you keep posting and directly respond to them.
You're not accustomed to people actually taking their time to read the Biblical versus you put up.

Post the whole Bible as your reference and I will have read it and responded to it as well.
You don't get to hide behind your fancy verses with me Habit7.

Unlike many of the posters here I do care about what everyone has to say.

[nareshseep]

[nareshseep]

[nareshseep]

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[megadoc1]

You could keep that goal post shifting babble for bluesclues. I'm out.

lol...play mad and answer dat nah

[bluesclues]

Bluesclues .. you are genuinely starting to scare me now.where do you get this stuff?

this is the story of genesis son. if you read it you will see that is what happened.

[ruffneck_12]

700 pages later, and nothing was achieved.


The religious people still religious.
The atheists still atheist.
The agnostics still agnostic.


Go help some injured animals, clothe some homeless people, plant some MC tree.

Do things that ACTUALLY make a difference.

[MD Marketers]

700 pages later, and nothing was achieved.


The religious people still religious.
The atheists still atheist.
The agnostics still agnostic.


Go help some injured animals, clothe some homeless people, plant some MC tree.

Do things that ACTUALLY make a difference.

You seem to think talking means "doing".
It's an act of communication. It has nothing to do with "doing" except maybe the typing part.
If you are against communication then why did you join an online forum?
You use the word ACTUALLY to mean DIRECTLY.
What you are trying to say is:
"Do things that DIRECTLY make a difference"

By your own logic you would probably think going to school is somehow useless.
The act of going to school doesn't really make a difference until you put what you have learnt into action, but that does not mean going to school is useless and neither is this thread. Both are just not DIRECTLY useful.

Many have benefited from this thread, mostly the ones listening rather than talking.