IS HELL REAL???

[brainchild]

now what will happen if hook, being one of the code holders becomes a super meelleoniere and buy out most of the "trusted few "
and the hard ones like close family and friends to Duane, he had them eradicated like the first four caliphs and then decided to write in his own Code
and add lil bits he got from d spike, blufetete and mamoo etc. etc. etc.
and wherever he could put his hands on, even codes from trinturbo
then announced that all formerly compiled codes are corrupted and that his version is the only true version and ordered all other versions to be destroyed
you would get something similar to what you are in possession of now

Thats how the King James Version came to be my friend.
don't be ridiculous my friend,you are purely speaking from assumptions
the language that the king james version was translated out of, is still available today!!!
the bible I currently use is a holman csb and it in mordern english
and mirrors the kjv,, plus I have the Hebrew software version and a Greek .now if the kjv came about that way, please tell me why the other tranlations
are't saying something else?
Unless u read Greek i don't see whats your point..they r all translations and have lost a lot of the meaning of the original. The King James was edited, he gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs






What you guys should be taking out of all this is that Christ man or demi-god had the same message in both the Bible and Quran.
what we are pointing out is that although they use the same names they don't share the same characteristics nor the same message
please be informed about this before making such statements
The message is the same, you want it to match exactly, you have to bear in mind these things were memorized by men, you and i may not tell the same story in the exact same way but as long as the underlying message is the same we shall both be deemed successful in our interpretation

God is the creator of all that is and does not deserve to be given a backseat because he sent a messenger, instead you chose to focus on whether the messenger was a man or god...does this really matter?
yes..... because if God came Himself and said or do one thing ,what should we do with a "messanger"
who came after carrying another message totally disregarding the one God brought?

Jesus is the messenger i'm speaking about...keep up


On the judgement day you all await will u be judged on what u believed him to be or on your deeds and thoughts?
in christ we are allready judged righteous, by our faith in Him


Did Christ seek to convert or to enlighten?
He came to redeem man from his fallen state as promised in the earlier scriptures

Redemption thru enlightenment...not conversion to a religion
If the main focus of Christ msg was his father/creator why do you focus on Christ only?
the whole message was focus on Christ He is the giver of life Read it over...he speaks of God, not himself

You say salvation is only thru Jesus...who decides in the end?
you decides, in the end whether you want salvation in christ or not
Fair enough...but what about the rest of life? How are you molding the world you live in? Worshipping and waiting for the end seems lazy to me when you have all these gifts from God around you...there has to be more to life

Isn't it God? no its you now!!! God decided a looooong time ago and sent Jesus its your turn now to choose Sent him to guide..remember all the shepard talk? not to replace him

If Jesus came to die for the sins of man, hasn't he already completed that job?
exactly thats why you are the one decides if you will accept him paying the price for you
or if you gonna pay for it yourself
I don't think u get wat i was sayin here...i mean that was then...this is now. Have you ever considered that within the translations what was interpreted as the return of Christ could've simply meant the coming of another messiah/prophet for our time just as Jesus came on the behalf of the ppl of his time

Because i would think that would apply to ppl that existed at that time. yes it did

So modern man should focus on God and wait for their sins to be forgiven by Him.
then Jesus died in vain? if thats what you feel by all means go ahead,,
man must pay for his sins against God but the only way sins are forgiven is through faith in Jesus Christ ,it is your choice if you want to pay for them yourself or receive forgiveness for it He didn't die in vain, he served his purpose for the time he was called for and left guidance for ppl to change their lives accordingly...not get caught up on him forget God and wait for the end

I highly doubt you can answer these questions without reverting to some nonsense that you have no understanding of
because at the end of the day you subscribe to a book that was translated from a dead language...we must remember that English is merely a translation not the original text. did I tell you that the old text is still around for reference?Can you read it or do you have to rely on the same translations?

The way I see it to a wise man it doesn't matter if Jesus was a parrot someone owned...what matters is what is taught.

[brainchild]

Megadoc, answer me this...bottomline is if God put us here to live, gave us air to breathe, water to drink, plants that bear food and animals to consume, everything plays a part in this world, every plant and animal poisonous or not can either be used for food or healing, natural wonders to enjoy. Doesn't that sound like heaven? If a man is placed in a world such as this for a period long enough to learn and love, have children and see them grow...isn't this enough? Man already outlives many creatures and plants, for him to ask that he never die and therefore becomes a god himself...does this not sound like greed? which is the basis of most sin. If even stars, moons, planets and suns have lifespans....who r we to ask that we out live them?

[megadoc1]

Unless u read Greek i don't see whats your point..they r all translations and have lost a lot of the meaning of the original. The King James was edited, he gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs

so what about the other translations? they are not king james...
we still have the Greek available for reference
so you argument is invalid and is geared towards ignorance





The message is the same, you want it to match exactly, you have to bear in mind these things were memorized by men, you and i may not tell the same story in the exact same way but as long as the underlying message is the same we shall both be deemed successful in our interpretation
the underlying message is not the same all it takes is just for you to take a look for yourself



Jesus is the messenger i'm speaking about...keep up
ammm.... Jesus is the God I am speaking about ..keep up





Redemption thru enlightenment...not conversion to a religion
nonsense! it is thru the price he paid on the cross ..death


Read it over...he speaks of God, not himself
He is God ....in fact the whole message of the bible from genesis to revelations
spoke about Him

Fair enough...but what about the rest of life? How are you molding the world you live in? Worshipping and waiting for the end seems lazy to me when you have all these gifts from God around you...there has to be more to life
because this is an assumption that you have thinking this is how it is
I cannot help you there

Sent him to guide..remember all the shepard talk? not to replace him
I never said God came to replace God,

1 In the beginning a was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created f through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created. 4 Life was in Him, and that life was the light of men.

10 He was in the world, and the world was created through Him, yet the world did not recognize Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him.

The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son s from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I don't think u get wat i was sayin here...i mean that was then...this is now. Have you ever considered that within the translations what was interpreted as the return of Christ could've simply meant the coming of another messiah/prophet for our time just as Jesus came on the behalf of the ppl of his time
NO!......


He didn't die in vain, he served his purpose for the time he was called for and left guidance for ppl to change their lives accordingly...not get caught up on him forget God and wait for the end well.... the purpose Jesus served is for all eternity, so I am not sure what you are getting at... He is God in flesh

Can you read it or do you have to really on the same translations?
no I cannot .... but what I am saying is that it is there for you and me to reference,
anyone with that capability, can see for themselves that what you were trying to imply is nonsence

[megadoc1]

Megadoc, answer me this...bottomline is if God put us here to live, gave us air to breathe, water to drink, plants that bear food and animals to consume, everything plays a part in this world, every plant and animal poisonous or not can either be used for food or healing, natural wonders to enjoy. Doesn't that sound like heaven?
your definition or view of what is heaven may not be the same as mine
therefore, I am unable to answer this because my view of heaven is totally different



If a man is placed in a world such as this for a period long enough to learn and love, have children and see them grow...isn't this enough?
who determines this? what if his maker want more of him?


Man already outlives many creatures and plants, for him to ask that he never die and therefore becomes a god himself...does this not sound like greed? which is the basis of most sin.
why should man want to become a god himself? where you get that? and if man was created a certain way and for a purpose and its His maker's will that he live forever.
what then are you asking ?
BTW ...sin is the basis of greed not the other way around


If even stars, moons, planets and suns have lifespans....who r we to ask that we out live them? who are we ??? man... it is the creator of the stars, moons, planets and suns who wants man to out live them...now isn't that love?

[brainchild]

Megadoc, answer me this...bottomline is if God put us here to live, gave us air to breathe, water to drink, plants that bear food and animals to consume, everything plays a part in this world, every plant and animal poisonous or not can either be used for food or healing, natural wonders to enjoy. Doesn't that sound like heaven?
your definition or view of what is heaven may not be the same as mine
therefore, I am unable to answer this because my view of heaven is totally different

So you regard Gods' creation of earth and it's balance as imperfect? Because if it's perfect it's a sufficient heaven

If a man is placed in a world such as this for a period long enough to learn and love, have children and see them grow...isn't this enough?
who determines this? what if his maker want more of him?the maker determines this


Man already outlives many creatures and plants, for him to ask that he never die and therefore becomes a god himself...does this not sound like greed? which is the basis of most sin.
why should man want to become a god himself? where you get that? and if man was created a certain way and for a purpose and its His maker's will that he live forever.
what then are you asking ?
BTW ...sin is the basis of greed not the other way around Firstly, eternal life is being a god and secondly certain behaviour/actions/emotions have to be present to be determined sinful...sin can't come before you even make a move or think a thought


If even stars, moons, planets and suns have lifespans....who r we to ask that we out live them? who are we ??? man... it is the creator of the stars, moons, planets and suns who wants man to out live them...now isn't that love? For what purpose? You see this is what i have been trying to show you for a very long time, if we put aside the religion and beliefs and look around we see a recurring theme in nature...1-everything serves a purpose, 2-everything has a life span...a beginning and an end. Because we have allowed ourselves to be distracted by who's right and whats the truth in religion, which is in itself a search for purpose, we have forgotten that life is a gift to make the most of. Compared to a fly we live for millenia, compared to a snail our experiences are legendary...so why can't you be satisfied with the life you were given. It's greed and nothing else, if it wasn't you would live a full life and then show your gratitude if you were allowed to experience something else after you die.

[brainchild]

The message is the same, you want it to match exactly, you have to bear in mind these things were memorized by men, you and i may not tell the same story in the exact same way but as long as the underlying message is the same we shall both be deemed successful in our interpretation
the underlying message is not the same all it takes is just for you to take a look for yourself
stop comparin words mega...the teachings are the same....pray to the father, avoid sin...go to heaven(in a nutshell)


Jesus is the messenger i'm speaking about...keep up
ammm.... Jesus is the God I am speaking about ..keep up
then you believe in the trinity...because other than that Jesus is the son of God and therefore separate...only begotten son and all that




Redemption thru enlightenment...not conversion to a religion
nonsense! it is thru the price he paid on the cross ..death If you stated that man is responsible for saving themselves at this point and Jesus' work was already done then one can only be redeemed thru enlightenment...gaining of knowledge
Read it over...he speaks of God, not himself
He is God ....in fact the whole message of the bible from genesis to revelations
spoke about Him
God the father not the son...u gone trinity again
Fair enough...but what about the rest of life? How are you molding the world you live in? Worshipping and waiting for the end seems lazy to me when you have all these gifts from God around you...there has to be more to life
because this is an assumption that you have thinking this is how it is
I cannot help you there God helps those who help themselves...watching the world fall to pieces while u pray in the middle isn't enough...it's selfishness...the world around you affects your children

Sent him to guide..remember all the shepard talk? not to replace him
I never said God came to replace God,You're still merging the two

1 In the beginning a was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created f through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created. 4 Life was in Him, and that life was the light of men.

10 He was in the world, and the world was created through Him, yet the world did not recognize Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him.

The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son s from the Father, full of grace and truth.

the word became flesh can be interpreted as the teachings were followed...think on it. This is why i tell u a lot was lost in translation


I don't think u get wat i was sayin here...i mean that was then...this is now. Have you ever considered that within the translations what was interpreted as the return of Christ could've simply meant the coming of another messiah/prophet for our time just as Jesus came on the behalf of the ppl of his time
NO!...... I'll agree to disagree on this one


He didn't die in vain, he served his purpose for the time he was called for and left guidance for ppl to change their lives accordingly...not get caught up on him forget God and wait for the end well.... the purpose Jesus served is for all eternity, so I am not sure what you are getting at... He is God in flesh
again...ok
Can you read it or do you have to really on the same translations?
no I cannot .... but what I am saying is that it is there for you and me to reference,
anyone with that capability, can see for themselves that what you were trying to imply is nonsence how can either of us truly reference it if we don't speak the language?

[megadoc1]

So you regard Gods' creation of earth and it's balance as imperfect? Because if it's perfect it's a sufficient heaven
then what will heaven be?


the maker determines this
Good


Firstly, eternal life is being a god
o really?

and secondly certain behaviour/actions/emotions have to be present to be determined sinful...sin can't come before you even make a move or think a thought
o really?


For what purpose? You see this is what i have been trying to show you for a very long time, if we put aside the religion and beliefs and look around we see a recurring theme in nature...1-everything serves a purpose, 2-everything has a life span...a beginning and an end. Because we have allowed ourselves to be distracted by who's right and whats the truth in religion, which is in itself a search for purpose, we have forgotten that life is a gift to make the most of. Compared to a fly we live for millenia, compared to a snail our experiences are legendary...so why can't you be satisfied with the life you were given. It's greed and nothing else, if it wasn't you would live a full life and then show your gratitude if you were allowed to experience something else after you die. you are all over the place man stick to what you started ....don't start bringing in your religion
I will ignore

[brainchild]

Firstly, eternal life is being a god
o really? Yes it is..pay attention to the lower case letter used as well the "a" before it

and secondly certain behaviour/actions/emotions have to be present to be determined sinful...sin can't come before you even make a move or think a thought
o really?
Well if you can't understand that you contradict urself as usual...because as u say, if Jesus already forgave mankind then we start without sin and the choice is ours whether to sin and burn or live good and live forever

For what purpose? You see this is what i have been trying to show you for a very long time, if we put aside the religion and beliefs and look around we see a recurring theme in nature...1-everything serves a purpose, 2-everything has a life span...a beginning and an end. Because we have allowed ourselves to be distracted by who's right and whats the truth in religion, which is in itself a search for purpose, we have forgotten that life is a gift to make the most of. Compared to a fly we live for millenia, compared to a snail our experiences are legendary...so why can't you be satisfied with the life you were given. It's greed and nothing else, if it wasn't you would live a full life and then show your gratitude if you were allowed to experience something else after you die. you are all over the place man stick to what you started ....don't start bringing in your religion
I will ignore No i am sticking to the topic, but what i'm doing is approaching what you say from a wider viewpoint...i know u not accustomed to these things but this is point....u talk, talk and talk but you're unappreciative of the intricacies of Gods' creations and master plan

[/quote]

[megadoc1]

stop comparin words mega...the teachings are the same....pray to the father, avoid sin...go to heaven(in a nutshell)
no it is not, we are not comparing words we are comparing the message
stay focus, these teaching are not the same...... we are way past the nutshell stage !!
we have already started digging in ,why deceive ourselves now?


If you stated that man is responsible for saving themselves at this point and Jesus' work was already done then one can only be redeemed thru enlightenment...gaining of knowledge
nope far from it,doh play smart man now



God the father not the son...u gone trinity again
no you are talking trinity glad u seeing it but I am speaking of Jesus he said it himself

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

now what you think about the "enlightenment" you were speaking of ?

God helps those who help themselves...
not the God of the bible

watching the world fall to pieces while u pray in the middle isn't enough...it's selfishness...the world around you affects your children
you are under the assumption that prayer have no effect
I won't waste time with you here


the word became flesh can be interpreted as the teachings were followed...think on it. This is why i tell u a lot was lost in translation
or maybe tied up in lack of understanding



how can either of us truly reference it if we don't speak the language?
you would be surprised to know that there are few on tuner here that understand these languages and speaks them ask arround

[brainchild]

So you regard Gods' creation of earth and it's balance as imperfect? Because if it's perfect it's a sufficient heaven
then what will heaven be?

This reminds me of a foolish girl i met real years ago, after spending some time around her i realised that she thought that longtime (1940's go back) the world actually looked different in terms of colour...she was fooled by watching old movies. I had to explain to her that the place looked just as it does now, it's just camera technology hadn't advanced yet.
In very much the same way you have to understand that if God took so much time and crafted this world to operate look as good as it does and perform the way it should naturally why would heaven be any different. I hope you don't believe in houses made of crystal and pearls and streets paved with gold...because whats the sense of that when He himself created stone which is perfectly suited for these things. If one choses to believe in heaven, the most they should expect different from here is that animals won't be trying to eat us, we won't be sick and die and breathe under water if u lucky.

[brainchild]

stop comparin words mega...the teachings are the same....pray to the father, avoid sin...go to heaven(in a nutshell)
no it is not, we are not comparing words we are comparing the message
stay focus, these teaching are not the same...... we are way past the nutshell stage !!
we have already started digging in ,why deceive ourselves now?
The nutshell is wat it's about...wen we get technical wit scriptures is when we pay attention to differences only

If you stated that man is responsible for saving themselves at this point and Jesus' work was already done then one can only be redeemed thru enlightenment...gaining of knowledge
nope far from it,doh play smart man nowwell then you contradicting wat you said earlier



God the father not the son...u gone trinity again
no you are talking trinity glad u seeing it but I am speaking of Jesus he said it himself Wat trinity have u seen in what i've said so far? open a window...smoke gettin in your eyes

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Humour me and break this down in Laymans terms...i wanna hear your interpretation


now what you think about the "enlightenment" you were speaking of ? God helps those who help themselves...
not the God of the bible
hmm...ok then
watching the world fall to pieces while u pray in the middle isn't enough...it's selfishness...the world around you affects your children
you are under the assumption that prayer have no effect
I won't waste time with you here I never said that, simply saying there is time for prayer and time for action, prayer without action is a waste of time...if you're not trying to fix your world what are you praying for?


the word became flesh can be interpreted as the teachings were followed...think on it. This is why i tell u a lot was lost in translation
or maybe tied up in lack of understanding
Yeah...by the translators


how can either of us truly reference it if we don't speak the language?
you would be surprised to know that there are few on tuner here that understand these languages and speaks them ask arroundI'm not asking about fellow tuners, i'm talkin about you and i

[megadoc1]

brianchild clearly, you are playing with words

I have no time to waste with you
see if you can strike up a conversation with d spike
he may be able to help u out

[brainchild]

Once again u run from actually interpreting the scripture u love quoting on your own...don't worry u can get back to me when your pastor explains it to you.

[megadoc1]

no my friend... far from it... scripture interpret ion is not a problem for me,
it is not even the issue at hand.
what I am running from, is going down a road with you
that is a waste of time for me.

you exercise to much assumptions man.

but I know your game, I am just not up to it
you are like a camel trying to lure a lion out into a desert.
I will stick close to where the water is, thank you.

but just in case you really want to believe what you stated above ...fine by me

[turbohead]

yes..... because if God came Himself and said or do one thing ,what should we do with a "messanger"
who came after carrying another message totally disregarding the one God brought?


no its you now!!! God decided a looooong time ago and sent Jesus its your turn now to choose

make up yuh mind nah mega, did God come himself or did he send Jesus.



megadoc i have come to the conclusion that you are hardheaded and kinda foolish, if you could make statements as above and deny clear proof of what ive shown you without an open mind, remember i said prove to me where Jesus said "i am God worship me" and i believe, until you could the bring to me the written gospel as according to Jesus then i would confirm. just food for thought when Jesus was asked to prove through miracles his word what did he say, "i can of my own do nothing" which would be meant as he can do nothing without God. if he was God he wouldnt say this, earlier i broke down the Lords prayer as it was broken down for me by a muslim scholar who was before a Christian and you still denied it. what am i to say to you again but "be careful how you choose your words and accredit falsity to the Quran on presumptions based on what you tink without evidence to back your claims for it will be grave sin on your path if you treat unjustly what is just."

[d spike]

brianchild clearly, you are playing with words

I have no time to waste with you
see if you can strike up a conversation with d spike
he may be able to help u out

Hmmm... looks like someone can't take the heat of the kitchen (and wants the stove to leave )

Megadoc... the nicest thing I can say at this point is that you and your Muslim counterpart have brought some mirth into my internet reading...

Look at the two of you... each one trying to use his religion's scripture (sorry megadoc, I mean his "group's" scripture ) to convince another person of another faith that their own religion is right, while the other is in error... completely and merrily illogical (classical megadoc styling...)
By the very nature of their belief being different, what makes either of you think that a person of another faith would consider your alien scripture as valid - seeing that scripture is only truly accepted as such by the faith system that either created, or was based on, said scripture?

..does this not sound like greed? which is the basis of most sin.

Brainchild, megadoc barely understands half of what he believes - and some of that is in error! - and this, coupled with his inability to communicate and his ability to ignore the obvious, makes his reading problematic, and his prose worse.
He thought you meant that Greed generates that which is known as Sin - when it is a willfully errant decision made within a combination of pertinent knowledge and free will that generates such - not realizing that you meant that the sin of greed is the root of most OTHER sins, which is a perfectly correct concept.
Semantics, perhaps?

Brainchild, I may not agree with all you say (that was for megadoc's benefit), but megadoc and his ilk fail to realize that a rational discussion in a public forum demands tolerance. Proclaiming what is wrong with other religions is for closed and private sessions. In public, the proper thing to do is to stress that which makes us similar. Courtesy seems to have died in the hearts of those whose religious beliefs promoted such a value in a previous era.
Focus on what we have in common, and lift each other up... while shunning the blinkered, paranoid and xenophobic ignorance that parades as religion these days.
Cheers

[megadoc1]

d spike ....my hero

[d spike]

megadoc i have come to the conclusion that you are hardheaded and kinda foolish

Correctamundo. Try not to make the same mistakes as he does...

...one way you can do this is by not using arguments that can be directed either way, as they are empty in themselves, containing no real point.
Two examples of this are as follows:

earlier i broke down the Lords prayer as it was broken down for me by a muslim scholar who was before a Christian and you still denied it

Clearly, he was no Christian scholar.
Would you direct queries about the Hindu faith to a rabbi? What is your position if megadoc starts quoting a member of his group who left the Muslim faith?

what am i to say to you again but "be careful how you choose your words and accredit falsity to the Quran on presumptions based on what you tink without evidence to back your claims for it will be grave sin on your path if you treat unjustly what is just."

This only makes sense if you consider the writings of the Koran to be "just".
As megadoc sees the Bible as "just", he, in turn, can quite easily respond:
"Be careful how you choose your words and accredit falsity to the Bible on presumptions based on what you think without evidence to back your claims for it will be grave sin on your path if you treat unjustly what is just."
Use rational and logical arguments (a hallmark of many of the past scholars in your religion) to deal with the likes of megadoc, rather than using religious arguments backed up by quotations from a scripture that he will disregard.

[megadoc1]

great post d spike!

[brainchild]

d spike breaking you down and dats ur response mega....clearly you lack a lot of understanding of the things you preach. I honestly hope you learn to open your mind tho, because if you don't and things don't turn out to be what you believe i forsee suicide.

Well said as usual d spike! I have no arguments

[megadoc1]

haha man a regular rebuke from d spike is awesome yo!

yuh gone again with you assumptions? what make you feel I don't have an open mind? and talking suicide???? You really foresee that?

and all of a sudden yuh have no arguments? ...lol the man see d spike and put down a 180* yes!

[brainchild]

If u expect an argument from me then u really didn't understand a word d spike said....he basically cleared up where you weren't getting me and why. If you'd like i'd still enjoy hearing your interpretation and see how these things appear to you. Because you claim to have an open mind yet still you spew nothing but ignorance....insinuating that islam was basically brought about by the devil, that was as disrespectful as it gets. Strong faith is an admirable thing but one must always leave room for expansion....thats what humilty is about, the bible itself says one must be as a child to enter the kingdom (children are always open to learning, they accept new possiblities and views). You see at the end of the day none of us really know what happened in the beginning, how we truly got here, what is our purpose (if any), it's possible that everything we know could turn out to be way off.

I'm still waiting to see some evidence of your so-called "open mind"...so whenever you ready bro.

[turbohead]

megadoc i have come to the conclusion that you are hardheaded and kinda foolish

Correctamundo. Try not to make the same mistakes as he does...

...one way you can do this is by not using arguments that can be directed either way, as they are empty in themselves, containing no real point.
Two examples of this are as follows:

earlier i broke down the Lords prayer as it was broken down for me by a muslim scholar who was before a Christian and you still denied it

Clearly, he was no Christian scholar.
Would you direct queries about the Hindu faith to a rabbi? What is your position if megadoc starts quoting a member of his group who left the Muslim faith?

what am i to say to you again but "be careful how you choose your words and accredit falsity to the Quran on presumptions based on what you tink without evidence to back your claims for it will be grave sin on your path if you treat unjustly what is just."

This only makes sense if you consider the writings of the Koran to be "just".
As megadoc sees the Bible as "just", he, in turn, can quite easily respond:
"Be careful how you choose your words and accredit falsity to the Bible on presumptions based on what you think without evidence to back your claims for it will be grave sin on your path if you treat unjustly what is just."
Use rational and logical arguments (a hallmark of many of the past scholars in your religion) to deal with the likes of megadoc, rather than using religious arguments backed up by quotations from a scripture that he will disregard.

i should refer him to yusef estes who was a renowned priest which left his post to pursue the religion of islam. everything i quote was a direction i was lead in by these scholars which had learnt and understood, all i asked was for his veiw but he beat around the bush and just denying wat i said as false without proof. i only seek to show the similarities and he chose to widen the gap. i simply asked for a explaination of the trinity and he said i not capable of understanding it, i say ply your case and i will see.

[megadoc1]

i should refer him to yusef estes who was a renowned priest which left his post to pursue the religion of islam. everything i quote was a direction i was lead in by these scholars which had learnt and understood, all i asked was for his veiw but he beat around the bush and just denying wat i said as false without proof. i only seek to show the similarities and he chose to widen the gap. i simply asked for a explaination of the trinity and he said i not capable of understanding it, i say ply your case and i will see.

this is so embaraksing .... are these scholars the ones who advised you to do this in a public setting? or was it that you were so full with confidence that you had to do it
in public?(remember I asked you to do this private eh)

anyways.... what If I referred you to Ravi Zacharias ?



he is very well learnt and understood!!!

this is what d spike is talking about....... we can go back and forth forever yo!

let us do this private ...ok?

[d spike]

i say ply your case and i will see.

I have one question for you:Why?
(Or to be more in keeping with the theme of the thread: Whatever the hell for?)

First of all, this query seems to be biased before one even starts... "ply your case"? Am I on trial? Don't be silly. I was taking part in a public discussion, not a court case. I have clearly stated in previous posts on Tuner that all men have a right to hold their beliefs - unless it impinges on the rights of others.
I save my explanations for my students, and for those who are polite enough to ask in a courteous manner, and mature enough to accept what is said, whatever one's personal beliefs are.

I might point out to you that proper answers do exist where your questions are concerned - you have most likely asked those who are not in a position to give you a concise or correct answer... and coupled with a superior attitude, you would certainly not be interested enough in the answer to seek its refinement.

I see others of different faiths as peers, not combatants. They don't have to strive to justify their beliefs to gain my acceptance or respect. All I ask is that they deepen their knowledge and understanding about their beliefs, and they accept the fact that others have the right to believe differently.

While it sounds like a good idea to compare differences, observe similarities, and generally learn of different ways of looking at the same thing, this won't work for religion, unless the persons involved share a strong sense of trust, respect, wisdom and maturity - as well as a very good grasp of language.
Thus it is that whenever average people discuss religion, it soon turns into either a competition, an evangelistic affair, or a fight - or all three, in that order.

What else I think can be summed up as follows:

Where the one truth is concerned, there are many ways of perceiving it, expressing it, focusing on different aspects of it... and when you consider that all or some of this must be put into the context of the culture of the one who proclaims it... no wonder the multiplicity of religions in the history of man.

A truly religious person would believe this. However the problem with appreciating/accepting other cultures' religions starts right as one accepts this truth, and at the same time, allows one's own personal view to colour this same truth.

Who you deem God (and thus, His revealed "word") can easily lead you to assume that you (and hence your choice) are right... and all else must therefore be wrong. It hardly ever occurs to the immature/simple mind that God would choose to reveal himself to different cultures across time in ways that those particular people could understand and would accept His truths.

Please note that I am not decrying immature or simple-minded folk - far from it... Their lives are far more uncomplicated. It is what we do, not how much we know, that we will be judged by - if you believe in some form of judgment, of course. In fact, to be aware of more, makes whatever judgment you might face even more weighty. Simple people see things in "black and white". Decisions come easily to them... until they come across one of life's quagmires of moral dilemmas. (At that point, they either become aware of the existence of the "gray areas" of life - and in choosing to deal with it, open their minds to the ability to learn more deeply about life; or they prefer to remain as they are by "backpedalling" until they reach to safe ground, then avoid that particular reality like the plague - or just live in denial.)
Where these simple folk run afoul is when they decide that everybody else must do things / accept truths their way - as any other way must be wrong.

When one studies other cultures, their morals and religions, one sees several threads that run through all of them - like signposts, perhaps. The ten commandments were not "new" rules from humanity's point of view. The "golden rule" that Jesus taught, was preached long before in China, among other places. Of course, differing ways of dealing with wrong sprang up, but what was considered wrong (and right, of course) remained the same wherever you looked.
Take adultery, for example. The Hittites had a law that if you caught your wife in adultery, you either killed both wife and lover, or let them go. In Old China, the first time your wife was caught in adultery, the lover was flogged, the second time, your wife was flogged - the third time you were flogged. But all agreed that adultery was wrong.

Let it suffice to say that your knowledge of right and wrong is yours to judge your own actions, what is truth for you, what is acceptable for you... not to tell others what to do or believe. They must be allowed to exercise that same gift in their lives - in order for the choice they make to be truly theirs.

Existence is an exquisite gift - but it is only for a time, and if you believe that you must answer for what you did with it, then certainly, horse-whipping people to believe in something that either they do already (they just don't fully understand or appreciate the glimmering jewels deep in their mind that exhorts them to do what is good, to love and care... just like knowing the stars are in the sky, you don't really know exactly what they're like or can appreciate their vastness - and who does anyway?) or they will in time on their own accord... that whipping is a waste of limited time and energy that could have been better spent showing someone how to love or appreciate what they have.

Cheers

[turbohead]

megadoc to you your way and to me mine, it seems that you look to deter the common grounds which we share as monotheists.

i was always fascinated about comparative religion after being introduced to it by Dr. Zakhir Naik, very brilliant fellow in my view, my status here is to come onto common grounds and rap from there not argue and fight over who right or wrong, you hold firm to your ways and i hold firm to mine.

[turbohead]

http://youtu.be/ogXWwKcHPNc