The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

Slartibartfast,something in your answer reminds me of something I always think about. Many Christians only research the bible for their own purposes,I not talking about you ,but how you said you rusty made me reflect. They use it to prove they are right ,not as a means of seeking God's words.Muslims go to classes to learn the Quran from young,do most Christian churches have provision for that?Muslims pray five times a day to remember God, some Christians pray when they need something or when they have problems.I am a Christian but there are some things I admire and follow from them.like bowing in humility while praying(I don't understand how some preachers shout at God and give him instructions). There are also some things I as a Christian don't believe even in Christianity,like the Godhead,and other doctrines that are not in the Bible.Muslims condemn the Bible because of two reasons,one is that they never studied nit and so make wrong claims but the other is that some Christians, by their doctrines,and by their lives give lie to what is really in the Bible.

I am sorry to see you have this opinion. Being a Christian is not about having a certain amount of facts and being able the defend your religion. It about having you sins propitiated by our God and Saviour Jesus and having the Holy Spirit dwell within you to continuously live a santified life. Nevertheless, it is evident I as a Christian have taken the time to study other religions like Islam and pose questions to York to show the inconsistency of Islam which he cannot answer, so I don't know how you can say Christians don't do that?

Praying more, knowing more, bowing more will not commend you to God, Christians know that by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8,9). However if you don't believe in co equality, co eternality and co divinity and unity of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, namely the Godhead then you are not a Christian (1 John 5:10-12). You probably need to ground your ideas of the Bible based on what it says and not on what you feel.

[Habit7]

3 persons in 1 being is a lie u invented. It is clear misguidance, polytheism, as stated by God in the Quran. I dont care about your symantics and donkey logic. Heed the warning. You have strayed far. Disbelief in any 1 messenger (Muhammad) is disbelief in all, including Jesus.

Slarti,
I'll try to make the time but i'm very busy. As i have said, read the Quran.

You are asking Slarti to read the Quran but I have and pose inconsistencies in the Quran to you that you are unwilling to address.

First you said the Trinity is the Father, Son and Angel Gabriel, the Quran says it is the Father, Son and Mary and both of you are wrong. I gave the historic confession of the triune nature God the church has confessed and you say that it is lie I invented. That is a clear indication you have no knowledge of what you deny. That formula is from the Athanasian Creed which also predates Muhammad, sadly neither you or the "prophet" was unaware of it.

[rspann]

This is why I can't get a grasp of the three being one. You have to explain it by what the church says and the Athanasian creed. God gave us his spirit to guide us into all truth,why do I go back to letting a sinful human decide what I must believe?
Habit7 ,read over what I wrote and note that I specifically said some christians in one place and many Christians in another. I never spoke about you and I never said all. I understand about salvation and all that you are saying ,but the trinity doctrine was formulated long after the bible and was never in the bible. To arrive at it takes a lot of inference and extrapolations.

[Slartibartfast]

Rspann you are correct in a sense. Lots of people only read the bible to prove a point. But this is true forany religious text. Just like in any religion there are those that actually follow the teachings. Habit and to some extent even bluesclues seem like the type that truly believe in the bible and follow it even outside of tuner arguments.

Now I'm not sure where you are from but I was personally exposed to bible studies in school (prayer 3 times a day and Religious studies 3 times a week in a catholic school). I also had to go to weekly classes for a year tp study my faith before making first communion and this was all before the age of 10.

In my teen years there was bible study groups for older folks and sunday school for younger ones. I ducked out of those to play football. There was also a year and a half of mandatory studies before anyone could be confirmed.

So there are a lot of prayers and study groups available for Christians every day of the week. I left the faith and I. No longer invovled in it so I'll only do a quick google search on the bible to prove a point but don't think that I represent Christians in any way. I would say look to Habit to get a better idea cuz he is clearly more involved in the faith than I am.

I was just quoting the bible to try to relate to York since he seems to be having difficulty formulating his own thoughts. I decided to stick to thoughts and writongs at least 1000 uears old im hopes that he has had ample time to understand them so far.

But yeah, FYI I'm not a catholic or christian so dont take me as an example for either.

Edit: for adults there are also Catholic orgamisations like Opus Dei. I'm actually still in contact with them but that's because they are wonderful human beings and do good charity work.

[Habit7]

This is why I can't get a grasp of the three being one. You have to explain it by what the church says and the Athanasian creed. God gave us his spirit to guide us into all truth,why do I go back to letting a sinful human decide what I must believe?

I was responding to York who I already justified the Trinity with Scripture

so what so christians deem the name of god to be?

why haven't Jews accepted your Lord and saviour, the promised messiah?

For Christians God is the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God who progressively revealed him throughout the Bible as being one in essence, three in person. Elohim (pl) of Genesis 1 who said "let Us create..." The God who promised to send His divine Son (Isaiah 9:6), the Son who David spoke of (Psalm 110:1), the divine Son of Man (Daniel 7:13). Along with the Holy Spirit who is also spoken of as well (Numbers 27:18, 1 Samuel 16:12-13 and 1 Samuel 10:10). In the New Testament this revelation is fully demonstrated in Jesus, who was both man and God, who forgave sin, received worship and claimed His equality with God the Father (John 5:18). Thus He was crucified as a blasphemer, but on the cross as a man He was the fitting substitute for the sins of those who have faith in Him, and as God, only He can bear the wrath of the Father poured out on Him and rise again.
God is one being, three in person: Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

York was saying I invented that God is one being, three in person. I was showing him that stated in the Athanasian Creed where it was not invented then either, it was reaffirming the teaching of Scripture when heretics challenged it.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Ephesians 4:4-7 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Jude 20-21 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

[Slartibartfast]

So to summarise the discussion so far

York has no reason to believe or follow Islam.
York has no idea why Islam is right.
York disbelieves some of the teachings of Jesus (who he thinks is a prophet) and therefore by extension disbelieves in Muhammed because to disbelieve one prophet is to disbelieve all.
York also believes that the Quran is supported by some passages in the bible (but doesn't believe the whole bible).
York also believes that it would be best for the world to be ruled by individuals of a similar mind as him.
York is also against equality.

Did I miss anything? And then you want to know why people cant take you seriously.

[York]

Rspann you are correct in a sense. Lots of people only read the bible to prove a point. But this is true forany religious text. Just like in any religion there are those that actually follow the teachings. Habit and to some extent even bluesclues seem like the type that truly believe in the bible and follow it even outside of tuner arguments.

Now I'm not sure where you are from but I was personally exposed to bible studies in school (prayer 3 times a day and Religious studies 3 times a week in a catholic school). I also had to go to weekly classes for a year tp study my faith before making first communion and this was all before the age of 10.

In my teen years there was bible study groups for older folks and sunday school for younger ones. I ducked out of those to play football. There was also a year and a half of mandatory studies before anyone could be confirmed.

So there are a lot of prayers and study groups available for Christians every day of the week. I left the faith and I. No longer invovled in it so I'll only do a quick google search on the bible to prove a point but don't think that I represent Christians in any way. I would say look to Habit to get a better idea cuz he is clearly more involved in the faith than I am.

I was just quoting the bible to try to relate to York since he seems to be having difficulty formulating his own thoughts. I decided to stick to thoughts and writongs at least 1000 uears old im hopes that he has had ample time to understand them so far.

But yeah, FYI I'm not a catholic or christian so dont take me as an example for either.

Edit: for adults there are also Catholic orgamisations like Opus Dei. I'm actually still in contact with them but that's because they are wonderful human beings and do good charity work.

Would anyone expect a 10 yr old child to have been educated to an extent to really understand his religion and to not have been brainwashed, in an era when information was not readily available compared to now?

No wonder you can't grasp some of the concepts i have been throwing at you. You were brainwashed and I hope not molested by any priests...

Rspann, you on the right track. Circular logic applies to "the bible" as well. Unknown men wrote them, especially JOHN which is the one that introduced the Trinity polytheistic concept. And then continued to be changed by men who corrected the word of God. It is what it is. Jesus was a man, among the greatest but it is wrong to put him up on a pedestal where he does not belong.

[York]

3 persons in 1 being is a lie u invented. It is clear misguidance, polytheism, as stated by God in the Quran. I dont care about your symantics and donkey logic. Heed the warning. You have strayed far. Disbelief in any 1 messenger (Muhammad) is disbelief in all, including Jesus.

Slarti,
I'll try to make the time but i'm very busy. As i have said, read the Quran.

You are asking Slarti to read the Quran but I have and pose inconsistencies in the Quran to you that you are unwilling to address.

First you said the Trinity is the Father, Son and Angel Gabriel, the Quran says it is the Father, Son and Mary and both of you are wrong. I gave the historic confession of the triune nature God the church has confessed and you say that it is lie I invented. That is a clear indication you have no knowledge of what you deny. That formula is from the Athanasian Creed which also predates Muhammad, sadly neither you or the "prophet" was unaware of it.

GOD in the Quran addresses you concerning the Trinity:

(1) O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah (GOD) aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.
He added this last part to confirm that He is NOT IN NEED of any help or son to help Him dispose of affairs.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)

(2) Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a trinity)." But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them. (سورة المائدة, Al-Maaida, Chapter #5, Verse #73)

[York]

Quran Chapter 5: (Al-Maaidah)

109 On the Day when Allah will gather the Messengers together and say to them: "What was the response you received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge, verily, only You are the All-Knower of all that is hidden (or unseen)."

110 (Remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibril (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, Al-Hikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay a figure like that of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) as you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'"

111 And when I (Allah) revealed to Al-Hawariyyun (the disciples) [of 'Îsa (Jesus)] to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: "We believe. And bear witness that we are Muslims."

112 (Remember) when Al-Hawariyyun (the disciples) said: "O 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?" 'Îsa (Jesus) said: "Fear Allah, if you are indeed believers."

113 They said: "We wish to eat thereof and to satisfy our hearts (to be stronger in Faith), and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we ourselves be its witnesses."

114 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Allah, our Lord! Send us from the heaven a table spread (with food) that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a festival and a sign from You; and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of sustainers."

115 Allah said: "I am going to send it down unto you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, then I will punish him with a torment such as I have not inflicted on anyone among (all) the 'Alamin (mankind and jinn)."

116 And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).

117 "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).
118 "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise ."

119 Allah will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allah is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120 To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

[Slartibartfast]

Rspann you are correct in a sense. Lots of people only read the bible to prove a point. But this is true forany religious text. Just like in any religion there are those that actually follow the teachings. Habit and to some extent even bluesclues seem like the type that truly believe in the bible and follow it even outside of tuner arguments.

Now I'm not sure where you are from but I was personally exposed to bible studies in school (prayer 3 times a day and Religious studies 3 times a week in a catholic school). I also had to go to weekly classes for a year tp study my faith before making first communion and this was all before the age of 10.

In my teen years there was bible study groups for older folks and sunday school for younger ones. I ducked out of those to play football. There was also a year and a half of mandatory studies before anyone could be confirmed.

So there are a lot of prayers and study groups available for Christians every day of the week. I left the faith and I. No longer invovled in it so I'll only do a quick google search on the bible to prove a point but don't think that I represent Christians in any way. I would say look to Habit to get a better idea cuz he is clearly more involved in the faith than I am.

I was just quoting the bible to try to relate to York since he seems to be having difficulty formulating his own thoughts. I decided to stick to thoughts and writongs at least 1000 uears old im hopes that he has had ample time to understand them so far.

But yeah, FYI I'm not a catholic or christian so dont take me as an example for either.

Edit: for adults there are also Catholic orgamisations like Opus Dei. I'm actually still in contact with them but that's because they are wonderful human beings and do good charity work.

Would anyone expect a 10 yr old child to have been educated to an extent to really understand his religion and to not have been brainwashed, in an era when information was not readily available compared to now?

Now wonder you can't grasp some of the concepts i have been throwing at you. You were brainwashed and I hope not molested by any priests...

Rspann, you on the right track. Circular logic applies to "the bible" as well. Unknown men wrote them, especially JOHN which is the one that introduced the Trinity polytheistic concept. And then continued to be changed by men who corrected the word of God. It is what it is. Jesus was a man.

Once again York you are completely correct. It's a good thing that children are not indoctrinated into Islam until they are over the age of 10, especially in Muslim countries and that Muslims are free to leave their faith without threat of getting killed for it. Those Islamic countries are the best. What I don't understand is why do you talk about child molestation as though it is a bad thing. Wasn't Muhammad's wife was a very mature nine year old?

York if you had the mental capacity to read past the first paragraph you would see that was just an introduction to my faith. If you were academically advanced to read sentences as long as this one you would have also been able to deduce that a lot of my post primary biblical studies was voluntary and I have since left that faith behind. Do you know what brainwashed means? I think you miss the humor in the fact that you are calling me brainwashed.

But anyway, I notice you didnt bother to dispute anything I have said in my previous post. I'm beginning to think that you are an anti-islamic posing as an ignorant Muslim to make people think ill about Muslims. I think we need a real Muslim to join this discussion cuz you are doing more harm than good.

[York]

Slarti,

Are you a believer or disbeliever in GOD? This is the first question I am asking you that is not rhetorical. You have been indoctrinated in your subconscious to believe in a lie...The TRINITY! You think that if GOD exists he must be a Trinity. Please tell me why?

We are different. I choose to believe and follow. You have chosen to either believe and not follow OR to disbelieve and not follow. Obedience is a choice.

The Quran address the whole of mankind, generally and some specifically like Christians. GOD is perfect, I am not. He is Divine, I am human...just like Jesus.

[Slartibartfast]

If the answer to that question is not evident to you by now then it seems like I have been engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

[York]

3 persons in 1 being is a lie u invented. It is clear misguidance, polytheism, as stated by God in the Quran. I dont care about your symantics and donkey logic. Heed the warning. You have strayed far. Disbelief in any 1 messenger (Muhammad) is disbelief in all, including Jesus.

Slarti,
I'll try to make the time but i'm very busy. As i have said, read the Quran.

And as I have replied, the answer to my questions are personal, specific to you and cannot be found in the Quran. I am sure you are aware of what the "circular reasoning" fallacy is and why you can't say that you know the Quran to be true because it says it is true.

I shall quote it again with emphasis to aid you in avoiding some of the confusion.

Relevant part ofy question quoted below for you to address.

YOU talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do YOU know what God's will is? How do YOU know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do YOU know that Islam is right?

Also, do you doubt any of the things below that Jesus said? Remember, to doubt Jesus is to doubt Muhammed. Here Jesus likens himself to God. If my interpretation is off I expect Habit can correct me. It's been a while since I studied the bible closely so forgive me if I'm a bit rusty.


I and the Father are one. (John 10:30, NIV)Are they conjoined twins? One in purpose?

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. Are they identical twins?How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:9, NIV)

Sigh...The Gospel of JOHN...plus these are not concrete, explicit, clear. They can support alternate meanings, hence not proof.

[Slartibartfast]

Why dont you start with one of my simpler questions. It's clear the idea of the trinity eludes you.

Let's start at the beginning. Quoted again in case you missed it the first time..... or second time or third time or forth time.

YOU talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do YOU know what God's will is? How do YOU know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do YOU know that Islam is right?

Fifth time's the charm.

[York]

From Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

The Christian Sects

Sa`id bin Batriq, the Patriarch of Alexandria and a famous Christian scholar, mentioned in the year four hundred after the Hijrah, that a Christian Council convened during the reign of Constantine, who built the city that bears his name. In this Council, the Christians came up with what they called the Great Trust, which in reality is the Great Treachery. There were more than two thousand patriarchs in this Council, and they were in such disarray that they divided into many sects, where some sects had twenty, fifty or a hundred members, etc.! When the king saw that there were more than three hundred Patriarchs who had the same idea, he agreed with them and adopted their creed. Constantine who was a deviant philosopher -- gave his support to this sect for which, as an honor, churches were built and doctrines were taught to young children, who were baptized on this creed, and books were written about it. Meanwhile, the king oppressed all other sects.

Another Council produced the sect known as the Jacobites, while the Nestorians were formed in a third Council. These three sects agreed that `Isa was divine, but disputed regarding the manner in which `Isa's divinity was related to his humanity; were they in unity or did Allah incarnate in `Isa! All three of these sects accuse each other of heresy and, we believe that all three of them are disbelievers. Allah said,

﴿انتَهُواْ خَيْراً لَّكُمْ﴾
(Cease! (it is) better for you.) meaning, it will be better for you,

﴿إِنَّمَا اللَّهُ إِلَـهٌ وَحِدٌ سُبْحَـنَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ﴾
(For Allah is (the only) One God, hallowed be He above having a son.) and He is holier than such claim,

﴿وَللَّهِ مَا فِى السَّمَـوَتِ وَمَا فِى الاٌّرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللَّهِ وَكِيلاً ﴾
(To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs,) for all are creatures, property and servants under His control and disposal, and He is the Disposer of the affairs. Therefore, how can He have a wife or a son among them,

﴿بَدِيعُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ﴾
(He is the originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children.) and

﴿وَقَالُواْ اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَـنُ وَلَداً - لَقَدْ جِئْتُمْ شَيْئاً إِدّاً ﴾
(And they say: "The Most Gracious (Allah) has begotten a son. Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.'') Up to His saying,

﴿فَرْداً﴾
(Alone.)

﴿لَّن يَسْتَنكِفَ الْمَسِيحُ أَن يَكُونَ عَبْداً للَّهِ وَلاَ الْمَلَـئِكَةُ الْمُقَرَّبُونَ وَمَن يَسْتَنْكِفْ عَنْ عِبَادَتِهِ وَيَسْتَكْبِرْ فَسَيَحْشُرُهُمْ إِلَيهِ جَمِيعاً - فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّـلِحَـتِ فَيُوَفِّيهِمْ أُجُورَهُمْ وَيَزيدُهُمْ مِّن فَضْلِهِ وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ اسْتَنكَفُواْ وَاسْتَكْبَرُواْ فَيُعَذِّبُهُمْ عَذَاباً أَلُيماً وَلاَ يَجِدُونَ لَهُمْ مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلِيّاً وَلاَ نَصِيراً ﴾
(172. Al-Masih will never be too proud to be a servant of Allah, nor the angels who are the near (to Allah). And whosoever rejects His worship and is proud, then He will gather them all together unto Himself.) (173. So, as for those who believed and did deeds of righteousness, He will give them their (due) rewards and more out of His bounty. But as for those who refused His worship and were proud, He will punish them with a painful torment. And they will not find for themselves besides Allah any protector or helper.)

[Habit7]

Unknown men wrote them, especially JOHN which is the one that introduced the Trinity polytheistic concept. And then continued to be changed by men who corrected the word of God. It is what it is.

Quran 6:114-115 [Say (O Muhammad )] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

You are not doing the Quran any help. Either you are right and the Torah and the Gospel was changed and the Quran is wrong? Or the Quran is right the Scripture is unchanged and you are wrong. Either way the Quran is wrong.





York you keep using Muslim sources to inform you about Christianity, you will always get a biased review. To test the truth and consistency of your religion, read the Christian sources and see if they align with what your Islamic sources says they should be.

I have done this with Islamic sources against Christianity and as you can see I have seen some woeful inconsistency with Islam.

[York]

Why dont you start with one of my simpler questions. It's clear the idea of the trinity eludes you.

Let's start at the beginning. Quoted again in case you missed it the first time..... or second time or third time or forth time.

YOU talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do YOU know what God's will is? How do YOU know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do YOU know that Islam is right?

Fifth time's the charm.

I don't have the Christian Holy Spirit in me. I went to Christian Sunday School as a youth. I never believed that Jesus was GOD or part of GOD.

I am / Muhammad / GOD is telling you Trinity is a fabricated lie.

Muhammad was unlettered, could not read or write, was not taught Christian theology. If he made up the Quran / Islam, why did he not conform with Christianity. Rather he opposed. He was a plain warner whom I choose to believe with sound mind and intellect, no talking in tongues / possessions, etc.

I asked habit to say which prophesy of Muhammad was not fulfilled? The Romans were defeated, etc...Quran Ch 30.

The Quran itself is a healing for those who believe but I make no claim to have experienced, there are narrations to support that claim. Also, to repel demon (jinn) possessed persons.

Many other reasons Slarti but i didn't have the time recently / this weekend (attending to farm) and will be fully booked with work this week.

Islamic Monotheism is the only true monotheism in the world. You have to study Tawheed, Oneness of GOD to understand. Google The Book of Tawheed by Ibn Abdul Wahhaab. It can be downloaded with explanation by Shaykh Uthaimeen in MP3 format.

I am not interested in debating or discussing with anyone who is going to keep posting stuff from Anti-Islamic propaganda sites like this http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-k ... n-mary.htm. I honestly don't have the time. Like habit and his claim that the Quran says Mary is part of the Trinity. It states not to worship Mary as Catholics do, but does not explicitly say she is part of the Trinity. Yet they want to say the Quran / Muhammad claims such and such.

Just take the admonition meted out by the Quran from Muslims. Then choose to believe or disbelieve. GOD know best and HE will be the Judge.

Allah said in the Quran that HE would protect it, so they can't get their filthy hands on it to corrupt it like they did the books of the Bible.(I don't support that the Bible was meant to be compiled the way it was.)

[York]

Unknown men wrote them, especially JOHN which is the one that introduced the Trinity polytheistic concept. And then continued to be changed by men who corrected the word of God. It is what it is.

Quran 6:114-115 [Say (O Muhammad )] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

You are not doing the Quran any help. Either you are right and the Torah and the Gospel was changed and the Quran is wrong? Or the Quran is right the Scripture is unchanged and you are wrong. Either way the Quran is wrong.





York you keep using Muslim sources to inform you about Christianity, you will always get a biased review. To test the truth and consistency of your religion, read the Christian sources and see if they align with what your Islamic sources says they should be.

I have done this with Islamic sources against Christianity and as you can see I have seen some woeful inconsistency with Islam.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... temid=61#1

None can change His Words.) meaning, none can avert Allah's judgment whether in this life or the Hereafter,

[Habit7]

The Jews Alter Allah's Words
Allah states that some Jews, may Allah's curses descend on them, distort Allah's Words with their tongues, change them from their appropriate places, and alter their intended meanings. They do this to deceive the ignorant people by making it appear that their words are in the Book of Allah. They attribute their own lies to Allah, even though they know that they have lied and invented falsehood. Therefore, Allah said,

(and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.)

Mujahid, Ash-Sha`bi, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that,

(who distort the Book with their tongues,) means, "They alter them (Allah's Words).''

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation can remove the Words of Allah from His Books, they alter and distort their apparent meanings. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and the Injil remain as Allah revealed them, and no letter in them was removed. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=46

That was your source, not mine.

[York]

The Jews Alter Allah's Words
Allah states that some Jews, may Allah's curses descend on them, distort Allah's Words with their tongues, change them from their appropriate places, and alter their intended meanings. They do this to deceive the ignorant people by making it appear that their words are in the Book of Allah. They attribute their own lies to Allah, even though they know that they have lied and invented falsehood. Therefore, Allah said,

(and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.)

Mujahid, Ash-Sha`bi, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that,

(who distort the Book with their tongues,) means, "They alter them (Allah's Words).''

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation can remove the Words of Allah from His Books, they alter and distort their apparent meanings. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and the Injil remain as Allah revealed them, and no letter in them was removed.
The original revelation itself. You don't have these. The Injil is the Gospel given to Jesus. What you have are recollections (or fabrications) written many years after.
However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves.aka THE BIBLE.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=46

That was your source, not mine.

[York]

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=46

Habit, You are being dishonest, just like the said verse is saying about what jews and christians have done to the books of Allah TO DECEIVE PEOPLE.

Now here is whole page of the link you provided:

The Jews Alter Allah's Words
Allah states that some Jews, may Allah's curses descend on them, distort Allah's Words with their tongues, change them from their appropriate places, and alter their intended meanings. They do this to deceive the ignorant people by making it appear that their words are in the Book of Allah. They attribute their own lies to Allah, even though they know that they have lied and invented falsehood. Therefore, Allah said,

﴿وَيَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الْكَذِبَ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ﴾
(and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.)

Mujahid, Ash-Sha`bi, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that,

﴿يَلْوُونَ أَلْسِنَتَهُم بِالْكِتَـبِ﴾
(who distort the Book with their tongues,) means, "They alter them (Allah's Words).''

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation can remove the Words of Allah from His Books, they alter and distort their apparent meanings. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and the Injil remain as Allah revealed them, and no letter in them was removed. [color=#FF0000]However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves. Then,

﴿وَيَقُولُونَ هُوَ مِنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ وَمَا هُوَ مِنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ﴾
(they say: "This is from Allah,'' but it is not from Allah;)

As for Allah's Books, they are still preserved and cannot be changed.'' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement. However, if Wahb meant the books that are currently in the hands of the People of the Book, then we should state that there is no doubt that they altered, distorted, added to and deleted from them. For instance, the Arabic versions of these books contain tremendous error, many additions and deletions and enormous misinterpretation. Those who rendered these translations have incorrect comprehension in most, rather, all of these translations. If Wahb meant the Books of Allah that He has with Him, then indeed, these Books are preserved and were never changed.

﴿مَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَن يُؤْتِيهُ اللَّهُ الْكِتَـبَ وَالْحُكْمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ ثُمَّ يَقُولَ لِلنَّاسِ كُونُواْ عِبَادًا لِّى مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلَـكِن كُونُواْ رَبَّـنِيِّينَ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تُعَلِّمُونَ الْكِتَـبَ وَبِمَا كُنتُمْ تَدْرُسُونَ - وَلاَ يَأْمُرَكُمْ أَن تَتَّخِذُواْ الْمَلَـئِكَةَ وَالنَّبِيِّيْنَ أَرْبَابًا أَيَأْمُرُكُم بِالْكُفْرِ بَعْدَ إِذْ أَنتُم مُّسْلِمُونَ ﴾
(79. It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book and Al-Hukm and prophethood to say to the people: "Be my worshippers rather than Allah's.'' On the contrary (he would say): "Be you Rabbaniyyun, because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it.'') (80. Nor would he order you to take angels and Prophets for lords. Would he order you to disbelieve after you have submitted to Allah's will)

[/color]

[York]

(78. And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues, so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: This is from Alla0h, but it is not from Allah؛ and they speak a lie against Alla0h while they know it.)

This is the verse from the page that precedes the one above. The tafsir, explanation is concerning this verse.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=46

[Slartibartfast]

Ok, now you raised more questions than answers

Muhammad was unlettered, could not read or write,

I hear this a lot. What is the significance of Muhammed being uneducated?

was not taught Christian theology. If he made up the Quran / Islam, why did he not conform with Christianity.

I think you made a mistake here. If he was not taught Christian theology then it seems only natural that what he made up would not follow it.

Also, keep in mind that Christianity pre-dated Muhammed by quite a bit and was widespread enough that he could have heard about it without being "taught" about it. Just like I know some odds and ends about Islam but was never taught it. So Muhammed may have been aware of Christianity but not fully understood or accepted it. Nothing special there.

Rather he opposed. He was a plain warner whom I choose to believe with sound mind and intellect, no talking in tongues / possessions, etc.

Ok so, so far, no indication that Muhammed was correct or that Islam is right and the only reason you believe is because you "choose" to believe. Sounds a lot like brainwashing but moving on.

I asked habit to say which prophesy of Muhammad was not fulfilled? The Romans were defeated, etc...Quran Ch 30.

The Quran itself is a healing for those who believe but I make no claim to have experienced, there are narrations to support that claim. Also, to repel demon (jinn) possessed persons.

Any comforting text can be "healing" for someone brainwashed enough to believe. That is how all of the other "true" religions work. no indication that Muhammed was correct or that Islam is right.

Many other reasons Slarti but i didn't have the time recently / this weekend (attending to farm) and will be fully booked with work this week.

No real answers put forward so far. Hopefully I can get one good answer before the year is out.

Islamic Monotheism is the only true monotheism in the world. You have to study Tawheed, Oneness of GOD to understand. Google The Book of Tawheed by Ibn Abdul Wahhaab. It can be downloaded with explanation by Shaykh Uthaimeen in MP3 format.

Before I take a look at this, what are the references for this book? Does it use the Quran as it's main reference?

I am not interested in debating or discussing with anyone who is going to keep posting stuff from Anti-Islamic propaganda sites like this http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-k ... n-mary.htm. I honestly don't have the time. Like habit and his claim that the Quran says Mary is part of the Trinity. It states not to worship Mary as Catholics do, but does not explicitly say she is part of the Trinity. Yet they want to say the Quran / Muhammad claims such and such.

Fair enough. Seeing that I didn't quote or reference this site then you should have no problem debating with me. Also, which Christians worship Mary? After being brought up in Christianity for two decades I have never met a Christian that worshiped Mary. Why would the Quran state not to worship Mary like Christians do when Christians don't worship Mary. Shouldn't Allah know better? Unless that part was misquoted from the Quran.

Just take the admonition meted out by the Quran from Muslims. Then choose to believe or disbelieve. GOD know best and HE will be the Judge.

So is fear is why you believe?

Allah said in the Quran that HE would protect it, so they can't get their filthy hands on it to corrupt it like they did the books of the Bible.(I don't support that the Bible was meant to be compiled the way it was.)

Ignoring this until you can somehow show that he Quran was not written by man. If you can show it then I shall take it seriously.

[megadoc1]

Muhammad was unlettered, could not read or write, was not taught Christian theology. If he made up the Quran / Islam, why did he not conform with Christianity. Rather he opposed. He was a plain warner whom I choose to believe with sound mind and intellect, no talking in tongues / possessions, etc.

york. there is documentation that suggest that muhamad went thru periods of possesions,madness,and crazy rants there were times i think he seekthe help of an exorcist

[Habit7]

As for Allah's Books, they are still preserved and cannot be changed.'' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement. However, if Wahb meant the books that are currently in the hands of the People of the Book, then we should state that there is no doubt that they altered, distorted, added to and deleted from them. For instance, the Arabic versions of these books contain tremendous error, many additions and deletions and enormous misinterpretation. Those who rendered these translations have incorrect comprehension in most, rather, all of these translations. If Wahb meant the Books of Allah that He has with Him, then indeed, these Books are preserved and were never changed.

This why I said two pages back:

We have Torahs that predate Muhammad by hundreds of years, likewise Gospels, all of which are identical to Torah and Gospel today in my bible. So when Muhammad tells me to corroborate what he says in the Torah and Gospels which are supposed to be the words of Allah and they don't corroborate him. And that Allah's words can't be changed. Also that the Quran never says that the Torah, Psalms or Gospels were corrupted. However they all were compiled long before the Quran and widely distributed, so if one were to corrupt them one would have to find all the multiple copies around the world and change these handwritten documents, an impossibility.

Either Muhammad was wrong about the Torah and the Gospel corroborating him.
Or Muhammad was wrong that the God of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel being the Allah of the Quran.

Either ways Muhammad is wrong.

The illiterate Muhammad in the 7th century told his followers that Torah and Gospel corroborates his teachings and that Christians and Jews should check in those books to verify. It was not until the 9th century that Bible was translated into Arabic and Muslims saw for themselves the vast inconsistency in books Islam seeks to justify itself with. Only then did some Muslims claim that Torah and Gospels were corrupted, but the Quran says they were not.

The tafsir gives you 2 hypothetical options, you are claiming one is true.

Either way the tafsir confirms that there is an uncorrupted Torah and Gospel that was in the hands of the Jews and Christians. Subsequent transcribers and translators may have corrupted it, but so have they done to the Quran. Nevertheless, in its original language it remained pure and undefiled. And we have multiple manuscripts dating way before Muhammad's greatest grandfather was a boy show that the Torah and Gospel of then, is the same of today.

So to say that these books were corrupted and the original no longer exists would make Muhammad a false prophet because he said nobody can change Allah's word.
To say that they not corrupted would make him a false prophet since they dont corroborate his message.

Either way he is false prophet. And if you hold him to the Deuteronomy 18:18 standard, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 identifies him as a false prophet because he recites the Satanic Verses. This is just another example of the Torah not corroborating him.

[York]

Muhammad was unlettered, could not read or write, was not taught Christian theology. If he made up the Quran / Islam, why did he not conform with Christianity. Rather he opposed. He was a plain warner whom I choose to believe with sound mind and intellect, no talking in tongues / possessions, etc.

york. there is documentation that suggest that muhamad went thru periods of possesions,madness,and crazy rants there were times i think he seekthe help of an exorcist

Well post your documentation that YOU THINK? He was known as Al-Amin, the Trusted One, before he claimed prophethood at the age of 40. In the first few years of his prophethood even his enemies entrusted their property and wealth for him to keep safe for them. They didn't have banks and safety deposit boxes back then.

What you are describing sounds like present day christian preaching to me? Who would follow someone like that? The Arabs and more than 20 or 25% of the worlds population follow Islam, leaving the religion of their ancestors, christianity, judaism, hinduism,etc.

When you die and are questioned in the grave by angels, they will ask you "who was that man who was sent to you?" Will you answer, "there is documentation that suggest that muhamad went thru periods of possesions,madness,and crazy rants there were times i think he seekthe help of an exorcist?"

[bluesclues]

3 persons in 1 being is a lie u invented. It is clear misguidance, polytheism, as stated by God in the Quran. I dont care about your symantics and donkey logic. Heed the warning. You have strayed far. Disbelief in any 1 messenger (Muhammad) is disbelief in all, including Jesus.

Slarti,
I'll try to make the time but i'm very busy. As i have said, read the Quran.

You are asking Slarti to read the Quran but I have and pose inconsistencies in the Quran to you that you are unwilling to address.

First you said the Trinity is the Father, Son and Angel Gabriel, the Quran says it is the Father, Son and Mary and both of you are wrong. I gave the historic confession of the triune nature God the church has confessed and you say that it is lie I invented. That is a clear indication you have no knowledge of what you deny. That formula is from the Athanasian Creed which also predates Muhammad, sadly neither you or the "prophet" was unaware of it.

GOD in the Quran addresses you concerning the Trinity:

(1) O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah (GOD) aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.
He added this last part to confirm that He is NOT IN NEED of any help or son to help Him dispose of affairs.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)

(2) Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a trinity)." But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them. (سورة المائدة, Al-Maaida, Chapter #5, Verse #73)

these are muhammad's words not Allah's. these are some of the words muhammad added to the quran. a quran that was transmitted orally for centuries before he was even born.

[York]

As for Allah's Books, they are still preserved and cannot be changed.'' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement. However, if Wahb meant the books that are currently in the hands of the People of the Book, then we should state that there is no doubt that they altered, distorted, added to and deleted from them. For instance, the Arabic versions of these books contain tremendous error, many additions and deletions and enormous misinterpretation. Those who rendered these translations have incorrect comprehension in most, rather, all of these translations. If Wahb meant the Books of Allah that He has with Him, then indeed, these Books are preserved and were never changed.

This why I said two pages back:

We have Torahs that predate Muhammad by hundreds of years, likewise Gospels, all of which are identical to Torah and Gospel today in my bible. So when Muhammad tells me to corroborate what he says in the Torah and Gospels which are supposed to be the words of Allah and they don't corroborate him. And that Allah's words can't be changed. Also that the Quran never says that the Torah, Psalms or Gospels were corrupted. However they all were compiled long before the Quran and widely distributed, so if one were to corrupt them one would have to find all the multiple copies around the world and change these handwritten documents, an impossibility.

Either Muhammad was wrong about the Torah and the Gospel corroborating him.
Or Muhammad was wrong that the God of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel being the Allah of the Quran.

Either ways Muhammad is wrong.

The illiterate Muhammad in the 7th century told his followers that Torah and Gospel corroborates his teachings and that Christians and Jews should check in those books to verify. It was not until the 9th century that Bible was translated into Arabic and Muslims saw for themselves the vast inconsistency in books Islam seeks to justify itself with. Only then did some Muslims claim that Torah and Gospels were corrupted, but the Quran says they were not. wrong, it was there in the Quran and from Muhammad 14 centuries ago.

The tafsir gives you 2 hypothetical options, you are claiming one is true. Both are True. A little reflection will reveal how so.

Either way the tafsir confirms that there is an uncorrupted Torah and Gospel that was in the hands of the Jews and Christians. Subsequent transcribers and translators may have corrupted it, thanks for the confirmation!but so have they done to the Quran. Nevertheless, in its original language it remained pure and undefiled. And we have multiple manuscripts dating way before Muhammad's greatest grandfather was a boy show that the Torah and Gospel of then, is the same of today.well then quote and explain from those, not English translations which were translated from the Latin Vulgate Bible. Oh, post a link to those original manuscripts nah? What language/s were they?

So to say that these books were corrupted and the original no longer exists would make Muhammad a false prophet because he said nobody can change Allah's word.
To say that they not corrupted would make him a false prophet since they dont corroborate his message.

Either way he is false prophet. And if you hold him to the Deuteronomy 18:18 standard, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 identifies him as a false prophet because he recites the Satanic Verses. This is just another example of the Torah not corroborating him.

If you choose your disbelief, that's your choice. Let others decide for themselves.

[bluesclues]

what quran did muslims/arabs use before muhammad included HIS quotes and instructions? to find out... go through the quran and remove every statement that comes out of the mouth of muhammad. he was not born. the quran they used came from the hebrews. it was judaism. the 12 princes are 12 jews. where a jew can be an arab, asian, caucasian, or negro, or indian. any who believed in the one God, served no idols and followed his way.
hence, when within the jewish ranks they conspired to kill christ. many recognized him and out of those ranks came christianity. arabs were slaves under the hebrew covenant. as a result they were taught the faith by their masters and were thus indoctrinated as jews. ishmael, indoctrinated and now a jew was taken to form his own culture with his mother hagar. thus as his people followed God in the desert they came to live and thrive there in its ways.

thus the foundation for islam is the God of the Hebrews/Jews. with what God taught ishmael in the desert. this was transmitted orally for centuries since they could not read and write. then muhammad comes along, and adds his portion to it.

thus... the quran was editted. changed. indeed to include muhammad. and shamefully, hoist above a prophet of virgin birth whose name is mentioned hundreds of times within as past present and prophecy throughout.

why do muslims choose to place an orphan prophet above one taken claim to in virgin birth by the will of God. Allah said for him ' to be'. and that was it, Jesus was made. not like a human whos mother must have sex. no mary was divinely fertilized by the will of God. thus a man, a prophet born to the FATHER OF THE UNIVERSE. as her only mate in that reproduction.


wherefore and howfore is muhammad above him? where is your instructions FROM ISA???? are you obeying him? for if u disobey one of the prophets u disobey them all.

[Habit7]

wrong, it was there in the Quran and from Muhammad 14 centuries ago.Abu’l-Rabi‘ b. al-Layth (c. 8th century A.D.), ‘Ali b. Rabban al-Tabari (b. 810 A.D.), Abu Muhammad ‘Abd Allah b. Muslim b. Qutayba (b. 828 A.D.), Ahmad b. Abi Ya‘qub b. Ja‘far b. Wahb b. Wadih al-‘Abbasi (b. first quarter of the 9th century A.D.), Abu Ja‘far Muhammad b. Jarir al-Tabari (b. 839 A.D.), Abu’l-Hasan ‘Ali b. al-Husayn al-Mas‘udi (b. 893 A.D.), Abu Bakr Muhammad b. al-Tayyib b. Ja‘far b. Muhammad b. al-Qasim (ibn) al-Baqillani (b. 950) all believed in the authenticity and non-corruption of the Torah and Gospel.

Both are True. A little reflection will reveal how so.The law of non-contradiction states A cannot be B at the same sense and the same time. They cannot both be true, either books are corrupted or not. Not both.

well then quote and explain from those, not English translations which were translated from the Latin Vulgate Bible. Oh, post a link to those original manuscripts nah? What language/s were they? I have been quoting from the New American Standard Bible (NASB) for our discussion, it is not translated from the Vulgate. The New Testament manuscripts are named p1-p76 ranging in age from A.D. 200 to A.D. 700 http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts.aspx

Papyri just last long enough for us to have the originals as it is organic. Nevertheless we have so much manuscripts in such wide distribution along with quotations from early church fathers, the New Testament still remains the most verified book of antiquity.

If I were to come today, 500 years after the fact and say: Christopher Columbus sailed from Norway to the Caribbean in 1492. It was in 3 canoes where he carried his wife, daughter and two sons. They first arrived in Trinidad where they sailed up the Goodineau River and performed aarti on the banks or the river in Woodland thanking the Almighty for a safe journey. He constructed the first Hindu temple not too far away and lived there for the rest of his life planting rice and watermelons.

I would obviously be going against 500 years of known history which is not just written in a book somewhere but is also evident subsequent actions. Nevertheless I would demand that my account of Columbus is true, and all other accounts are fabrications and redactions. I would not be taken seriously and the onus is on me to prove the truth not just deny 500 years of Post-Colombian history.

Likewise for an illiterate man, living hundreds of kms away from Israel, yet interacting with Jews and Christian traders in Arabia, him recounting distorted versions of Biblical narratives is obviously him putting his variance of Bible narratives he heard. Saying that the Trinity is 3 gods:Allah, Jesus and Mary (Sura 5:73-75,116), the Torah, Psalms and Gospel corroborate his teaching and cannot be changed, and that he is the greatest of all men and on judgement day he will assist Allah in judging people. This flies in the face of historic Judaism and Christianity, more so Christianity because for the first 300 years Christians were brutally persecuted for believing what the Quran said never existed. Therefore only by shear force and might can Islam forward its ideology over Christianity in great measure, not by logic and scholarship.

So when the Torah is verified by the greatest archaeological find in the 20th century the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the New Testament is the most verified book of antiquity based on manuscripts, but Quran says 700 years later "they are wrong, we are right," it defies logic.