The Religion Discussion

[York]

What is wrong with following Paul's words? They are just as inspired by God as Jesus'.

You follow the words of Muhammad, not Jesus, who told you you should follow Jesus.


Torah:
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Gospel:
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus proclaimed his divinity.




Muhammad was wrong. And if he was mortal fallible human being not deserving of worship it should hurt you to say so....but I am sure it does.

you accuse me of being someone else on this thread. so i say, "I AM WHO I AM". Does that mean "I am GOD" or "GOD who GOD"?

[nareshseep]

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[Habit7]

Torahs and Gospels ...plural!

It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad ) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). Noble Quran 3:3 (Khan and Hilali)

The Quran does not say they are plural, have you read it?

http://www.fwrobertson.com/sermons/ser87.htm
Moses was an orphan. Islamically an orphan is one who has lost his father.

Who cares what it means Islamically, it was written to 1400 B.C. Jews, Islam didnt exist yet. Plus it still doesnt get over the hurdle that the prophet had to be a Jew.

you accuse me of being someone else on this thread. so i say, "I AM WHO I AM". Does that mean "I am GOD" or "GOD who GOD"?

The "I AM WHO I AM" statement by Exodus 3:14 is a response in the previous verse Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?”

Therefore the in the Torah, God identifies himself as the I AM. Every Jew know that the I AM WHO I AM is synonymous with God's holy name YHWH. Jesus didn't just say I am God like any madman, He theologically attributed the name of God to Himself, and Jews instantly responded with capital punishment for blasphemy.

[Chimera]

went to a funeral service in faith center sando last week

pastor endlessly talking about how only christians will go to jesus when they die and return to earth when jesus comes back

and how everyone else engaged in wishful thinking and hopelessness if they dont accept jesus


me eh really want to be in a heaven that have a set of idiots like that na
that could never be heaven

[York]

Torahs and Gospels ...plural!

It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad ) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). Noble Quran 3:3 (Khan and Hilali)you mentioned plural ...the Torah and Injeel mentioned in the Quran refer to the pure, un-corrupted, unchanged revelation given to Moses and Jesus. What you have in your bible is not that!

The Quran does not say they are plural, have you read it?

http://www.fwrobertson.com/sermons/ser87.htm
Moses was an orphan. Islamically an orphan is one who has lost his father.

Who cares what it means Islamically, it was written to 1400 B.C. Jews, Islam didnt exist yet. Plus it still doesnt get over the hurdle that the prophet had to be a Jew.they had the same culture, an orphan is a dis-advantaged child. A similarity between Moses and Muhammad. If the prophesy clearly meant Jew, it would have said that, it didn't. Just like the jews, no way is it possible that God could send a messenger/prophet except to them! It all boils down to belief...muslims will outnumber christians, deal with it. The current migration in Europe will further propel muslim numbers in the next couple of generations. That's the wisdom behind that seemingly unfortunate, sad occurence.

you accuse me of being someone else on this thread. so i say, "I AM WHO I AM". Does that mean "I am GOD" or "GOD who GOD"?

The "I AM WHO I AM" statement by Exodus 3:14 is a response in the previous verse Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?”

Therefore the in the Torah, God identifies himself as the I AM. Every Jew know that the I AM WHO I AM is synonymous with God's holy name YHWH. Jesus didn't just say I am God like any madman, He theologically attributed the name of God to Himself, and Jews instantly responded with capital punishment for blasphemy.

so what so christians deem the name of god to be?

why haven't Jews accepted your Lord and saviour, the promised messiah?

There were jews and christians in Arabia 1400 yrs ago, they recognised and accepted Muhammad, a lot of them except the "knowledgeable" ones like yourself. Check history.

[Habit7]

you mentioned plural ...the Torah and Injeel mentioned in the Quran refer to the pure, un-corrupted, unchanged revelation given to Moses and Jesus. What you have in your bible is not that!

they had the same culture, an orphan is a dis-advantaged child. A similarity between Moses and Muhammad. If the prophesy clearly meant Jew, it would have said that, it didn't. Just like the jews, no way is it possible that God could send a messenger/prophet except to them! It all boils down to belief...muslims will outnumber christians, deal with it. The current migration in Europe will further propel muslim numbers in the next couple of generations. That's the wisdom behind that seemingly unfortunate, sad occurence.


so what so christians deem the name of god to be?

why haven't Jews accepted your Lord and saviour, the promised messiah?

There were jews and christians in Arabia 1400 yrs ago, they recognised and accepted Muhammad, a lot of them except the "knowledgeable" ones like yourself. Check history.

When I said Torahs I meant manuscripts, the multiple identical manuscripts that pre-date Muhammad and existed during the time of Muhammad. Also there is one Gospel message, the four gospel books are different perspective which again were widely distributed and reference long before Muhammad came along.He never said they were corrupted. He said they were the words of Allah and cannot be changed. You are contradicting the Quran.

It clearly says Jew. It say brothers/brethren/countrymen/Israelite (HCS/KJV/NASB/NIV). Jesus said, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me." (John 5:46). Muhammad, couldn't even make that claim, subsequent Muslims after him who could actually read had hunt peck obscure references while ignoring the specific ones.
I really dont care about numbers and and who outnumbers who when many are converted to Islam under the threat of the sword and are dissuaded to leave under threat of the sword. Most growth of Islam is not through logical argument and acceptance of the facts, it is through birth rate.

Jews and Christians were living throughout the Middle East and Europe. That is why the books of the New Testament were letters to the Romans, Philipians, Ephesians, Colossians, Thessalonians, etc. These were areas in Europe, Turkey, Greece, etc. Jew and Christians in Arabia 1400 yrs ago when it was pagan when the Quraish tribe were worship multiple gods including Allah and pelting the Kaaba and having pilgrimage to Mecca, you know, the stuff Islam adopted.
They did not accept Islam, Muhammad rode into town and capture Mecca and eventually said Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)
Also,
I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims. (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 3, p. 965)
And
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
(Sahih Bukhari 52.177 )

[Slartibartfast]

Slarti,
Read the Quran and hadith (sunnah). The Shariah Laws are derived from them.

I think I asked you too many questions as once so I'll try to keep my conversations simple enough for yuu to understand.

You can start by answering this one.

You talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do you know what God's will is? How do you know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do you know that Islam is right?

I'm a lot less interested in the "what" and more interested in the "why do you and others like you believe and follow outdated, sexist, violent and barbaric laws that openly discriminate against the majority of the world's population" and yet somehow still believe that you promote peace. Sorry, getting a bit complicated again. Ignore this, just answer the quoted question above. Thanks.

[York]

Slarti,
Read the Quran and hadith (sunnah). The Shariah Laws are derived from them.

I think I asked you too many questions as once so I'll try to keep my conversations simple enough for yuu to understand.

You can start by answering this one.

You talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do you know what God's will is? How do you know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do you know that Islam is right?

I'm a lot less interested in the "what" and more interested in the "why do you and others like you believe and follow outdated, sexist, violent and barbaric laws that openly discriminate against the majority of the world's population" and yet somehow still believe that you promote peace. Sorry, getting a bit complicated again. Ignore this, just answer the quoted question above. Thanks.

The answers are in the Quran and hadith. Start by reading them. That's what "I and others like me" have done to believe and follow the religion of Islam.

I'm sorry but if you can't get over the hurdle of what is the meaning of worshipping ONE GOD....

[York]

you mentioned plural ...the Torah and Injeel mentioned in the Quran refer to the pure, un-corrupted, unchanged revelation given to Moses and Jesus. What you have in your bible is not that!

they had the same culture, an orphan is a dis-advantaged child. A similarity between Moses and Muhammad. If the prophesy clearly meant Jew, it would have said that, it didn't. Just like the jews, no way is it possible that God could send a messenger/prophet except to them! It all boils down to belief...muslims will outnumber christians, deal with it. The current migration in Europe will further propel muslim numbers in the next couple of generations. That's the wisdom behind that seemingly unfortunate, sad occurence.


so what so christians deem the name of god to be?

why haven't Jews accepted your Lord and saviour, the promised messiah?

There were jews and christians in Arabia 1400 yrs ago, they recognised and accepted Muhammad, a lot of them except the "knowledgeable" ones like yourself. Check history.

When I said Torahs I meant manuscripts, the multiple identical manuscripts that pre-date Muhammad and existed during the time of Muhammad. Also there is one Gospel message, the four gospel books are different perspective which again were widely distributed and reference long before Muhammad came along.He never said they were corrupted. He said they were the words of Allah and cannot be changed. You are contradicting the Quran.

It clearly says Jew. It say brothers/brethren/countrymen/Israelite (HCS/KJV/NASB/NIV). what is the word in the original revealed language?Jesus said, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me." (John 5:46). Muhammad, couldn't even make that claim, subsequent Muslims after him who could actually read had hunt peck obscure references while ignoring the specific ones.
I really dont care about numbers and and who outnumbers who when many are converted to Islam under the threat of the sword and are dissuaded to leave under threat of the sword. Most growth of Islam is not through logical argument and acceptance of the facts, it is through birth rate.

Jews and Christians were living throughout the Middle East and Europe. That is why the books of the New Testament were letters to the Romans, Philipians, Ephesians, Colossians, Thessalonians, etc. These were areas in Europe, Turkey, Greece, etc. Jew and Christians in Arabia 1400 yrs ago when it was pagan when the Quraish tribe were worship multiple gods including Allah just like how you worship Allah (the father) along with other gods (son and holy spirit, mary, ancestors, saints, pope)and pelting the Kaaba and having pilgrimage to Mecca, you know, the stuff Islam adopted. Was pilgrimage ever commanded by God to followers of the bible? what about animal sacrifice?
They did not accept Islam, Muhammad rode into town and capture Mecca and eventually said Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)has this prophesy been fulfilled?
Also,
I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims. (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 3, p. 965)has this prophesy been fulfilled?
And
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
(Sahih Bukhari 52.177 )

This is exactly what Christians have done to the revealed books: Re-written and change the meaning to suit their whims, fancies and need for polytheism.

And from those who call themselves christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience); and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

(سورة المائدة, Al-Maaida, Chapter #5, Verse #14)

[York]

Quran: Surah Al-Maaidah (The Tablespread):

12 Indeed Allah took the covenant from the Children of Israel (Jews), and We appointed twelve leaders among them. And Allah said: "I am with you if you perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat ) and give Zakat and believe in My Messengers; honour and assist them, and lend a good loan to Allah, verily, I will expiate your sins and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise). But if any of you after this, disbelieved, he has indeed gone astray from the Straight Path."

13 So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun (good-doers - See V.2:112).

14 And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience); and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

15 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and a plain Book (this Qur'an).

16 Wherewith Allah guides all those who seek His Good Pleasure to ways of peace, and He brings them out of darkness by His Will unto light and guides them to the Straight Way (Islamic Monotheism).

17 Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary) . Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), his mother, and all those who are on the earth together?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things.

18 And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; and to Him is the return (of all).

19 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) making (things) clear unto you, after a break in (the series of) Messengers, lest you say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner. " But now has come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And Allah is Able to do all things

[Slartibartfast]

Slarti,
Read the Quran and hadith (sunnah). The Shariah Laws are derived from them.

I think I asked you too many questions as once so I'll try to keep my conversations simple enough for yuu to understand.

You can start by answering this one.

You talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do you know what God's will is? How do you know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do you know that Islam is right?

I'm a lot less interested in the "what" and more interested in the "why do you and others like you believe and follow outdated, sexist, violent and barbaric laws that openly discriminate against the majority of the world's population" and yet somehow still believe that you promote peace. Sorry, getting a bit complicated again. Ignore this, just answer the quoted question above. Thanks.

The answers are in the Quran and hadith. Start by reading them. That's what "I and others like me" have done to believe and follow the religion of Islam.

I'm sorry but if you can't get over the hurdle of what is the meaning of worshipping ONE GOD....

You aren't really saying that you believe the Quran and Hadith are true because they said they are true right? Because that's no argument at all.

If that's the case, why don't you believe in Christianity, which asserts with just as much authority how true it is?

[York]

Slarti,
Read the Quran and hadith (sunnah). The Shariah Laws are derived from them.

I think I asked you too many questions as once so I'll try to keep my conversations simple enough for yuu to understand.

You can start by answering this one.

You talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do you know what God's will is? How do you know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do you know that Islam is right?

I'm a lot less interested in the "what" and more interested in the "why do you and others like you believe and follow outdated, sexist, violent and barbaric laws that openly discriminate against the majority of the world's population" and yet somehow still believe that you promote peace. Sorry, getting a bit complicated again. Ignore this, just answer the quoted question above. Thanks.

Barbaric laws...slarti, are you British?

[Slartibartfast]

Relevant part ofy question quoted below for you to address.

You talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do you know what God's will is? How do you know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do you know that Islam is right?

[MG Man]

[Habit7]

so what so christians deem the name of god to be?

why haven't Jews accepted your Lord and saviour, the promised messiah?

For Christians God is the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God who progressively revealed him throughout the Bible as being one in essence, three in person. Elohim (pl) of Genesis 1 who said "let Us create..." The God who promised to send His divine Son (Isaiah 9:6), the Son who David spoke of (Psalm 110:1), the divine Son of Man (Daniel 7:13). Along with the Holy Spirit who is also spoken of as well (Numbers 27:18, 1 Samuel 16:12-13 and 1 Samuel 10:10). In the New Testament this revelation is fully demonstrated in Jesus, who was both man and God, who forgave sin, received worship and claimed His equality with God the Father (John 5:18). Thus He was crucified as a blasphemer, but on the cross as a man He was the fitting substitute for the sins of those who have faith in Him, and as God, only He can bear the wrath of the Father poured out on Him and rise again.
God is one being, three in person: Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

You said before the angel Gabriel was part of the Trinity, you were wrong. Just as much as the Quran is wrong about the Trinity being Father, Son and Mary. One would think that a "prophet" attempting to debunk a religion he places his moorings on would at least be correct about that.

what is the word in the original revealed language?

just like how you worship Allah (the father) along with other gods (son and holy spirit, mary, ancestors, saints, pope)

Was pilgrimage ever commanded by God to followers of the bible? what about animal sacrifice?

has this prophesy been fulfilled?

has this prophesy been fulfilled?

And from those who call themselves christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience); and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

(سورة المائدة, Al-Maaida, Chapter #5, Verse #14)

אָח awkh

Allah is not the Father, Allah is not the God of the Bible. Those who worship Mary, ancestors, saints and Popes are not Christian. You are defining Christian based on what an Islamic source told you it is. Christianity is defined by the Bible, anyone doing otherwise is wrong. I have spoken out against those things in this very thread.

Nothing is wrong with a pilgrimage, my point was that Muhammad just adopted the ongoing pagan pilgrimage into Islam.
Animal sacrifice started in the Garden of Eden where God kill animals to cover the Adam and Eve after they sinned. This continued as God command the Jews to sacrifice animals to cover their sin. But when Jesus came, John the Baptist said "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for sin not animal can do. Animals covered sins, Jesus takes it away. That is why Christian don sacrifice animals.

By God's will the Dar al-Islam will never overcome the Dar al-Harab.

"Allah commanded His believing servants to fullfil the promises and pledges that He took from them and which they gave His servant and Messenger, Muhammad, peace be upon him. Allah also commanded them to stand for the truth and give correct testimony. He also reminded them of the obvious and subtle favors of the truth and guidance that He granted them. Next, Allah informed them of the pledges and promises that He took from the People of the Book, who were before them, the Jews and Christians. When they broke these promises and covenants, Allah cursed them as a consequence and expelled them from His grace and mercy. He also sealed their hearts from receiving guidance and the religion of truth, beneficial knowledge and righteous actions."
According to Ibn Kathir, still no affirmation that the Torah, Psalms or Gospel was corrupted.

[Habit7]

Quran: Surah Al-Maaidah (The Tablespread):

12 Indeed Allah took the covenant from the Children of Israel (Jews), and We appointed twelve leaders among them. And Allah said: "I am with you if you perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat ) and give Zakat and believe in My Messengers; honour and assist them, and lend a good loan to Allah, verily, I will expiate your sins and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise). But if any of you after this, disbelieved, he has indeed gone astray from the Straight Path."

13 So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun (good-doers - See V.2:112).

14 And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience); and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

15 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and a plain Book (this Qur'an).

16 Wherewith Allah guides all those who seek His Good Pleasure to ways of peace, and He brings them out of darkness by His Will unto light and guides them to the Straight Way (Islamic Monotheism).

17 Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary) . Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), his mother, and all those who are on the earth together?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things.

18 And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; and to Him is the return (of all).

19 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) making (things) clear unto you, after a break in (the series of) Messengers, lest you say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner. " But now has come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And Allah is Able to do all things

The Jews Alter Allah's Words
Allah states that some Jews, may Allah's curses descend on them, distort Allah's Words with their tongues, change them from their appropriate places, and alter their intended meanings. They do this to deceive the ignorant people by making it appear that their words are in the Book of Allah. They attribute their own lies to Allah, even though they know that they have lied and invented falsehood. Therefore, Allah said,

(and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.)

Mujahid, Ash-Sha`bi, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that,

(who distort the Book with their tongues,) means, "They alter them (Allah's Words).''

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation can remove the Words of Allah from His Books, they alter and distort their apparent meanings. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and the Injil remain as Allah revealed them, and no letter in them was removed. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=46

That was your source, not mine.

[bluesclues]

went to a funeral service in faith center sando last week

pastor endlessly talking about how only christians will go to jesus when they die and return to earth when jesus comes back

and how everyone else engaged in wishful thinking and hopelessness if they dont accept jesus


me eh really want to be in a heaven that have a set of idiots like that na
that could never be heaven

lel i can tell u that the pastor himself doesnt know what he is saying. as are many.. most likely.. most. it is sad that his congregation cannot read and see that the new covenant was for all mankind for themselves.

[York]

Quran: Surah Al-Maaidah (The Tablespread):

12 Indeed Allah took the covenant from the Children of Israel (Jews), and We appointed twelve leaders among them. And Allah said: "I am with you if you perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat ) and give Zakat and believe in My Messengers; honour and assist them, and lend a good loan to Allah, verily, I will expiate your sins and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise). But if any of you after this, disbelieved, he has indeed gone astray from the Straight Path."

13 So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun (good-doers - See V.2:112).

14 And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience); and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

15 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and a plain Book (this Qur'an).

16 Wherewith Allah guides all those who seek His Good Pleasure to ways of peace, and He brings them out of darkness by His Will unto light and guides them to the Straight Way (Islamic Monotheism).

17 Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary) . Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), his mother, and all those who are on the earth together?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things.

18 And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; and to Him is the return (of all).

19 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) making (things) clear unto you, after a break in (the series of) Messengers, lest you say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner. " But now has come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And Allah is Able to do all things

The Jews Alter Allah's Words
Allah states that some Jews, may Allah's curses descend on them, distort Allah's Words with their tongues, change them from their appropriate places, and alter their intended meanings. They do this to deceive the ignorant people by making it appear that their words are in the Book of Allah. They attribute their own lies to Allah, even though they know that they have lied and invented falsehood. Therefore, Allah said,

(and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.)

Mujahid, Ash-Sha`bi, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that,

(who distort the Book with their tongues,) means, "They alter them (Allah's Words).''

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation can remove the Words of Allah from His Books, they alter and distort their apparent meanings. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and the Injil remain as Allah revealed them, and no letter in them was removed. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=46

That was your source, not mine.

Relying on books that they wrote themselves aka THE HOLY BIBLE. This is the addition and false interpretation NOT the Taurat neither Injeel.

Are u blind Habit? The tafsir explains what occurred originally when they had the unchanged revelation but CHOSE to corrupt and change the meaning ...

[nareshseep]

The bible is true because the bible says it is true.

The Koran is true because it says it is true.

The Spiderman comic is true because it says it is true.

[Habit7]

Relying on books that they wrote themselves aka THE HOLY BIBLE. This is the addition and false interpretation NOT the Taurat neither Injeel.

Are u blind Habit? The tafsir explains what occurred originally when they had the unchanged revelation but CHOSE to corrupt and change the meaning ...

My point still stands.

We have Torahs that predate Muhammad by hundreds of years, likewise Gospels, all of which are identical to Torah and Gospel today in my bible. So when Muhammad tells me to corroborate what he says in the Torah and Gospels which are supposed to be the words of Allah and they don't corroborate him. And that Allah's words can't be changed. Also that the Quran never says that the Torah, Psalms or Gospels were corrupted. However they all were compiled long before the Quran and widely distributed, so if one were to corrupt them one would have to find all the multiple copies around the world and change these handwritten documents, an impossibility.

Either Muhammad was wrong about the Torah and the Gospel corroborating him.
Or Muhammad was wrong that the God of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel being the Allah of the Quran.

Either ways Muhammad is wrong.

If somebody wrote other books then good for them, they are not the subject at hand.

The Quran teaches that the Torah, Psalms and Gospel remain unchanged, from its original manuscript, during the time of Muhammad and once we use those same manuscripts, it is unchanged today. They don't corroborate Muhammad as he said they should.

Muhammad was wrong.

[Habit7]

The bible is true because the bible says it is true.

The Koran is true because it says it is true.

The Spiderman comic is true because it says it is true.

Wow nareshseep, I guess all this time have not been making logical substantial arguments for the truth of the Bible, I have just been saying, "The bible is true because the bible says it is true." You surely got me.

Well they are not quite one claim against the other.

It is a first claim that has significant historical, archeological and prophetic support preceeding the claim being made, and then there is a second claim, that has no significant historical, archeological and prophetic support preceeding the claim being made. In fact, the majority of its support is appealed to in the first claim which when observed at a superfacial value, denys the truth of the second claim and even in a deeper investigation, it condemns it.

If they are both the rantings of man men then we have to be consistent and consider that other worldviews eminating from men or schools of thought that have had less of an impact or not as prolifict as Christianity and Islam, to be also rantings of man men and worthy of being disregarded.

I prefer to investiage their claims for truth and consistancy, and not just consider it to equal or ambiguous, because it is not.

I must say, you straw man as good as you meme.

[York]

Relying on books that they wrote themselves aka THE HOLY BIBLE. This is the addition and false interpretation NOT the Taurat neither Injeel.

Are u blind Habit? The tafsir explains what occurred originally when they had the unchanged revelation but CHOSE to corrupt and change the meaning ...

My point still stands.

We have Torahs that predate Muhammad by hundreds of years, likewise Gospels, all of which are identical to Torah and Gospel today in my bible. So when Muhammad tells me to corroborate what he says in the Torah and Gospels which are supposed to be the words of Allah and they don't corroborate him. And that Allah's words can't be changed. Also that the Quran never says that the Torah, Psalms or Gospels were corrupted. However they all were compiled long before the Quran and widely distributed, so if one were to corrupt them one would have to find all the multiple copies around the world and change these handwritten documents, an impossibility.

Either Muhammad was wrong about the Torah and the Gospel corroborating him.
Or Muhammad was wrong that the God of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel being the Allah of the Quran.

Either ways Muhammad is wrong.

If somebody wrote other books then good for them, they are not the subject at hand.

The Quran teaches that the Torah, Psalms and Gospel remain unchanged, from its original manuscript, during the time of Muhammad and once we use those same manuscripts, it is unchanged today. They don't corroborate Muhammad as he said they should.

Muhammad was wrong.

Habit,
Fortunately, Islam does not rely on Christian bible writers neither interpreters to explain the meaning of the Qur'an. We rely on scholars called mufassireen and muhadditheen explain the hadith / sunnah / narrations of Muhammad.

JESUS did not walk around with the Gospel given to him. There are no references in the gospels. Plus it can't be the gospels because they were written long after by unknown writers. John is an obvious fabrication to introduce Trinity and divinity of Jesus aka polytheism.

What you continue to do is classic Christianity...denial and interpretations to suit your individual whims and fancies. As Allah has said, He has put hatred and enmity in the hearts of Christians for each other. Just look at Mecalli and Megadoc1 on the PAGAN CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS thread.

[Slartibartfast]

Relevant part ofy question quoted below for you to address.

You talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do you know what God's will is? How do you know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do you know that Islam is right?

Habit I honestly think you are wasting your time. Despite our differences, at least when arguing with you I am able to get answers to these questions. Even though we disagree on the interpretation/ accuracy of those answers, at least you have reasons.

It looks like York is blindly following Islam because that's what he is. There is no indication that Islam is any more true than scientology.

Am I the only one not surprised by the fact that a group of people (Muslims like York, not all Muslims) want to rule over all others and impose laws that empower them more than anyone else?

York, I truly hope that you are able to think critically one day.

[meccalli]

Mecalli and Megadoc1 on the PAGAN CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS thread.

Hatred and enmity lol? Disagreements and correction was a big part of the early church even between the apostles on particular issues. You should be more concerned by the amount of muslims slaughtered by their own brothers in the faith in recent times.

[Habit7]

Habit,
Fortunately, Islam does not rely on Christian bible writers neither interpreters to explain the meaning of the Qur'an. We rely on scholars called mufassireen and muhadditheen explain the hadith / sunnah / narrations of Muhammad.

JESUS did not walk around with the Gospel given to him. There are no references in the gospels. Plus it can't be the gospels because they were written long after by unknown writers. John is an obvious fabrication to introduce Trinity and divinity of Jesus aka polytheism.

What you continue to do is classic Christianity...denial and interpretations to suit your individual whims and fancies. As Allah has said, He has put hatred and enmity in the hearts of Christians for each other. Just look at Mecalli and Megadoc1 on the PAGAN CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS thread.

Well you are skirting the issue. You said the Torah and Gospel are corrupted and changed, the Quran said they are not. Muhammad said they corroborate him, they don't. You are wrong and Muhammad is wrong why can't you own up to that?





But lest you think I cannot deal with this red herring you want to present:
And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) , confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah. Sura 5:46-47

Muhammad told me (a person of the Book) to judge for myself, not with mufassireen and muhadditheen.

There was no gospel sent to Jesus, Jesus is the gospel (good news) (Mark 1:15). If you say that the gospel is invalided because it was written after Jesus death, burial and resurrection....so was the Quran. The Quran was put in written form after the reciters kept dying out in battle after Muhammad died. Plus he couldn't read so there was no way for him to verify those who wrote down his recitation was writing exactly what he wanted. However, Jesus' ministry was public and his preaching was to thousands, those who wrote His gospel were well known in first century church including John (known as "the disciple Jesus loved"). The gospels were all written within the time period of the life of the eye witnesses both hostile and friendly and they could easily deny any historical account therein, but they didn't. Also to say that John introduced the Trinity is not only wrong it is myopic, I gave you proof of the Trinity throughout the Old Testament and the Gospel of Mark records:
The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?” But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Tearing his clothes, the high priest *said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death. (Mark 14:60-65)
Jesus proclaims His deity and the high priest reacts accordingly. God is one in being, three in person. No polytheism.

I am not denying anything, I am quoting your Quran and being consistent with what it says. If you think that thread is evidence of Christians having enmity against each other what would say about this Islamic world? Nothing can be more dangerous than being a minority Islamic sect in an Islamic country. Consider Shia living in Sunni countries or Ahmadis, Alawites, Ajlafs and Arzals. When Muslims want peace they flee to countries where Christianity dominates, not the other way around.

[York]

3 persons in 1 being is a lie u invented. It is clear misguidance, polytheism, as stated by God in the Quran. I dont care about your symantics and donkey logic. Heed the warning. You have strayed far. Disbelief in any 1 messenger (Muhammad) is disbelief in all, including Jesus.

Slarti,
I'll try to make the time but i'm very busy. As i have said, read the Quran.

[York]

Mecalli and Megadoc1 on the PAGAN CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS thread.

Hatred and enmity lol? Disagreements and correction was a big part of the early church even between the apostles on particular issues. You should be more concerned by the amount of muslims slaughtered by their own brothers in the faith in recent times.

thanks for confirming, that's what i have been saying. Much correction of the bible scriptures and sanitizing was done by christian scholars.

Yes, ISIS are misguided, self-serving muslims. They are not supported by any 1, not even 1 known muslim scholar. What is the history of Syria and Iraq? Who is to take part of the blame for what is occurring now? Where are they getting weapons made from the US? Where is the zeal of the US and UN to fight oppression now?

[meccalli]

thanks for confirming, that's what i have been saying. Much correction of the bible scriptures and sanitizing was done by christian scholars.

You read it wrong then, these were first hand disciples of Jesus and lead by the holy Spirit. They asked for confirmation and decided on contentious matters as lead by the spirit of God. The records are the same and the discussion and issues are open as well as the resolutions. Thank God for an honest book like the Bible.

[Slartibartfast]

3 persons in 1 being is a lie u invented. It is clear misguidance, polytheism, as stated by God in the Quran. I dont care about your symantics and donkey logic. Heed the warning. You have strayed far. Disbelief in any 1 messenger (Muhammad) is disbelief in all, including Jesus.

Slarti,
I'll try to make the time but i'm very busy. As i have said, read the Quran.

And as I have replied, the answer to my questions are personal, specific to you and cannot be found in the Quran. I am sure you are aware of what the "circular reasoning" fallacy is and why you can't say that you know the Quran to be true because it says it is true.

I shall quote it again with emphasis to aid you in avoiding some of the confusion.

Relevant part ofy question quoted below for you to address.

YOU talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do YOU know what God's will is? How do YOU know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do YOU know that Islam is right?

Also, do you doubt any of the things below that Jesus said? Remember, to doubt Jesus is to doubt Muhammed. Here Jesus likens himself to God. If my interpretation is off I expect Habit can correct me. It's been a while since I studied the bible closely so forgive me if I'm a bit rusty.


I and the Father are one. (John 10:30, NIV)

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:9, NIV)

[rspann]

Slartibartfast,something in your answer reminds me of something I always think about. Many Christians only research the bible for their own purposes,I not talking about you ,but how you said you rusty made me reflect. They use it to prove they are right ,not as a means of seeking God's words.Muslims go to classes to learn the Quran from young,do most Christian churches have provision for that?Muslims pray five times a day to remember God, some Christians pray when they need something or when they have problems.I am a Christian but there are some things I admire and follow from them.like bowing in humility while praying(I don't understand how some preachers shout at God and give him instructions). There are also some things I as a Christian don't believe even in Christianity,like the Godhead,and other doctrines that are not in the Bible.Muslims condemn the Bible because of two reasons,one is that they never studied nit and so make wrong claims but the other is that some Christians, by their doctrines,and by their lives give lie to what is really in the Bible.