The Religion Discussion

[York]

Sorry race yes, Islam does not identify superiority of the Arab over the non-Arab. God looks at our hearts and deeds.

Muslims live by the law of God, the Shariah. This would take preference over any manmade law. A Muslim woman HAS to cover everything except her hands and face. She would need a special treatment in this regard if living in a non-Muslim state. In a Muslim state non- Muslim women will not be allowed to dress any less. The same concept applies to alcohol and gambling, etc because of the effect, negative, that it would have on the society. The laws of the state is what matters here.

With respect to creed, non-Muslims in a Muslim state would have to pay Jizya, a tax for security. Non-Muslims in the past preferred to live under Muslim rule like this. Google it!

[York]

Habit,
You sir are a mushrikoon kaafir, polytheist disbeliever. Why MUST you worship a man? Disbelief in any one messenger, is disbelief in all.

[Habit7]

Habit,
You sir are a mushrikoon kaafir, polytheist disbeliever. Why MUST you worship a man? Disbelief in any one messenger, is disbelief in all.

By your standards, not only does Muhammad fulfil Deuteronomy 18, but Joseph Smith of the Mormon movement does as well.

Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[York]

Some hearts do find hatred and prejudice along with pride. The I am better than you syndrome. It's not good in itself but there is a good and just reason for its existence. God has perfect knowledge, wisdom and justice. Evil, disbelief, Satan and hellfire are all part of that plan for recompense...

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry race yes, Islam does not identify superiority of the Arab over the non-Arab. God looks at our hearts and deeds.

Noted.

Muslims live by the law of God, the Shariah. This would take preference over any manmade law. A Muslim woman HAS to cover everything except her hands and face.

Why? Why doesn't the man also have to cover everything except his hands and face? Also, how do you know that the Shariah is the law of God and where can I get a copy to read?

She would need a special treatment in this regard if living in a non-Muslim state.

Freedom of dress is not special treatment and lots of women in Trinidad dress in this manner without any negative effects. Covering of the face would have been a different matter though as it would allow criminals to walk around in plain site disguised as women.

In a Muslim state non- Muslim women will not be allowed to dress any less. The same concept applies to alcohol and gambling, etc because of the effect, negative, that it would have on the society. The laws of the state is what matters here.

Right. Now here is where you lost me. So Muslims should be allowed to form a society to do as they please regardless of state laws but if the roles were reversed non-muslims should not be allowed such freedoms?[/quote]

With respect to creed, non-Muslims in a Muslim state would have to pay Jizya, a tax for security.

Security from what?
Shouldn't the police provide security?
Wouldn't Muslims providing all security would give rise to the "security" forces being prejudice against non-Muslims.

Non-Muslims in the past preferred to live under Muslim rule like this. Google it!

Wow! Preferred to live like this under Muslim rule when compared to what alternative exactly?

Would you as a Muslim be in support of Muslims in non-Muslim countries around the world paying a TAX for security? I no, why not?

[York]

Habit,
If u choose polytheism and worship of man over God or along with God, it's your choice. You keep quoting from an obsolete text and therein lies the problem. It is what your heart desires. No amount of evidence will change your mind.

Muslims surpassed Catholics in number a few years ago, published by the Catholic church. In 600 years Muslim numbers will far surpass Christians who have to water down their religion to get adherents to stay, sadly.

[York]

Slarti,
France, once known for liberty, fraternity and equality, has turned 180° against Muslims. Nuns could wear head covering but not Muslim women! Right here in Trini Muslim girls could not have gone to a catholic school wearing hijab. Was that every creed finding an equal place?

[York]

Slarti,
France, once known for liberty, fraternity and equality, has turned 180° against Muslims. Nuns could wear head covering but not Muslim women! Right here in Trini Muslim girls could not have gone to a catholic school wearing hijab. Was that every creed finding an equal place?

[Numb3r4]

Some one mentioned that non Muslims preferred to live under Muslim rule, is that person referring to the Ottoman Empire ruling over the Middle East?
If so that isn't a good example of "preferred living under Muslim rule".

[bluesclues]

ROFL @york calling habit a kaafir.

but york, u should find yourself in better company. whoever is teaching u the Quran is misguiding you. read it and seek revelation for yourself. listen to the words of Allah. Allah has authority over all the prophets. thus if u seek to ensure u have the proper interpretation, ensure that what u believe does not conflict with the words and instructions of Allah.

[Habit7]

You keep quoting from an obsolete text and therein lies the problem.

The Quran says:

Do not dispute with the People of the Book except in a manner which is best, barring such of them as are wrongdoers, and say, ‘We believe in that which has been sent down to us and has been sent down to you; our God and your God is one [and the same], and to Him do we submit.’(29:46)

He has sent down to you the Book with the truth confirming what was [revealed] before it, and He had sent down the Torah and the Evangel. (3:3)

those who follow the Apostle, the uninstructed prophet, whose mention they find written with them in the Torah and the Evangel, who bids them to do what is right and forbids them from what is wrong, makes lawful to them all the good things and forbids them from all vicious things, and relieves them of their burdens and the shackles that were upon them —those who believe in him, honour him, and help him and follow the light that has been sent down with him,1 they are the felicitous.’ (7:157)

So the Quran tells you not to dispute with me, that the Torah and Gospel are the word of Allah and that the Torah and the Gospel should corroborate Islam.

Yet you call me a polytheist, the words of Allah has become "obsolete" and Muhammad fails to fit in to the Old Testament prophecies.

Are you new to Islam?

[Slartibartfast]

Slarti,
France, once known for liberty, fraternity and equality, has turned 180° against Muslims. Nuns could wear head covering but not Muslim women! Right here in Trini Muslim girls could not have gone to a catholic school wearing hijab. Was that every creed finding an equal place?

Are you talking about wearing a hinab covering their hair or a burka (I think it's called) covering their entire face. U dont keep up with French current affairs and have not heard about nuns covering their face or Mulsim females not being allowed to cover their hair. Can you point me to the source of your information?

Also, in what public schools are you not allowed to wear a hijab in Trinidad and Tobago? I have never seen a girl restricted from wearing a hijab in school before and I was educated from pre school to tertiary level in Trinidad.

Also.... the rest of my questions are waiting to be addressed.

[York]

The hijab was banned in schools since 2004.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... slim-women

In Trinidad, it happened 20+ yrs ago with a muslim girl having to go to court in order to attend the Catholic school (she passed for in Common Entrance).

[York]

You keep quoting from an obsolete text and therein lies the problem.

The Quran says:

Do not dispute with the People of the Book except in a manner which is best, barring such of them as are wrongdoers, and say, ‘We believe in that which has been sent down to us and has been sent down to you; our God and your God is one [and the same], and to Him do we submit.’(29:46)

He has sent down to you the Book with the truth confirming what was [revealed] before it, and He had sent down the Torah and the Evangel. (3:3)

those who follow the Apostle, the uninstructed prophet, whose mention they find written with them in the Torah and the Evangel, who bids them to do what is right and forbids them from what is wrong, makes lawful to them all the good things and forbids them from all vicious things, and relieves them of their burdens and the shackles that were upon them —those who believe in him, honour him, and help him and follow the light that has been sent down with him,1 they are the felicitous.’ (7:157)

So the Quran tells you not to dispute with me except in ways that are best, that the Torah and Gospel are the word of Allah and that the Torah and the Gospel should corroborate Islam.what you have in your bible is not the Torah and the Gospel

Yet you call me a polytheistif u continue what you are upon, the words of Allah has become "obsolete" there u go again, the meaning of Allah is THE ONE TRUE GOD WHO IS WORSHIPPED OUT OF LOVE, MAGNIFICATION AND LONGING (not longing to worship a man)and Muhammad fails to fit in to the Old Testament prophecies. in your view because just like the Jews 2000 yrs ago you can't fathom that GOD can send a book and a prophet/Messenger that would supercede your book and your prophet!

Are you new to Islam?

[Slartibartfast]

The hijab was banned in schools since 2004.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... slim-women

In Trinidad, it happened 20+ yrs ago with a muslim girl having to go to court in order to attend the Catholic school (she passed for in Common Entrance).

French schools. I agree that is unfair if non Muslim girls are allowed to not wear hijabs in Muslim schools. Are they?

As for schools in Trinidad... you really had to go back to the previous millennium to make your point?! Any cases of those issues in this decade.... or this century even?

[York]

The hijab was banned in schools since 2004.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... slim-women

In Trinidad, it happened 20+ yrs ago with a muslim girl having to go to court in order to attend the Catholic school (she passed for in Common Entrance).

French schools. I agree that is unfair if non Muslim girls are allowed to not wear hijabs in Muslim schools. Are they?

As for schools in Trinidad... you really had to go back to the previous millennium to make your point?! Any cases of those issues in this decade.... or this century even?

It's not compulsory for girls below the age of puberty. Unless it is in an islamic state, it is still not compulsory (from this I can take that it will not be forced on non-muslim girls in a muslim school) but compulsory when it comes to obeying GOD wherever you are. Also, a muslim school will be a girl only school and with only female teachers and staff. If this is so, then there is no need for them to wear hijab. Hijab is only when coming in contact with men who are not close relatives, men to whom it is legal to marry.

the point is that it happened and they got their arse sued and lost, so the presidence is set. They may try it again but the case is there to be referred to. The girl was wearing head covering (kimaar) not niqab (full face covering).

[Slartibartfast]

the point is that it happened and they got their arse sued and lost, so the presidence is set. They may try it again but the case is there to be referred to. The girl was wearing head covering (kimaar) not niqab (full face covering).

I don't think you understand how this point system works. The fact that it happened once and the girl won means that it is no longer an issue.

So if it was an issue once, over twenty years ago, and even then it was ruled that the schools should be tolerant to Islam AND it has not happened since... within the last two decades... how is this still an issue? The answer is it's not.

Now moving on to main issue.

You talk a lot about obeying God and what he want and all that. How do you know what God's will is? How do you know that the teachings in the Quran is His/Her teaching? How do you know that Islam is right?

[York]

Many reasons...will inform when I can...work nah!

[Habit7]

You keep quoting from an obsolete text and therein lies the problem.

The Quran says:

Do not dispute with the People of the Book except in a manner which is best, barring such of them as are wrongdoers, and say, ‘We believe in that which has been sent down to us and has been sent down to you; our God and your God is one [and the same], and to Him do we submit.’(29:46)

He has sent down to you the Book with the truth confirming what was [revealed] before it, and He had sent down the Torah and the Evangel. (3:3)

those who follow the Apostle, the uninstructed prophet, whose mention they find written with them in the Torah and the Evangel, who bids them to do what is right and forbids them from what is wrong, makes lawful to them all the good things and forbids them from all vicious things, and relieves them of their burdens and the shackles that were upon them —those who believe in him, honour him, and help him and follow the light that has been sent down with him,1 they are the felicitous.’ (7:157)

So the Quran tells you not to dispute with me except in ways that are best, that the Torah and Gospel are the word of Allah and that the Torah and the Gospel should corroborate Islam.what you have in your bible is not the Torah and the Gospel

Yet you call me a polytheistif u continue what you are upon, the words of Allah has become "obsolete" there u go again, the meaning of Allah is THE ONE TRUE GOD WHO IS WORSHIPPED OUT OF LOVE, MAGNIFICATION AND LONGING (not longing to worship a man)and Muhammad fails to fit in to the Old Testament prophecies. in your view because just like the Jews 2000 yrs ago you can't fathom that GOD can send a book and a prophet/Messenger that would supercede your book and your prophet!

Are you new to Islam?

We have Torahs that predate Muhammad by hundreds of years, likewise Gospels, all of which are identical to Torah and Gospel today in my bible. So when Muhammad tells me to corroborate what he says in the Torah and Gospels which are supposed to be the words of Allah and they don't corroborate him. And that Allah's words can't be changed. Also that the Quran never says that the Torah, Psalms or Gospels were corrupted. However they all were compiled long before the Quran and widely distributed, so if one were to corrupt them one would have to find all the multiple copies around the world and change these handwritten documents, an impossibility.

Either Muhammad was wrong about the Torah and the Gospel corroborating him.
Or Muhammad was wrong that the God of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel being the Allah of the Quran.

Either ways Muhammad is wrong.





And while in some convoluted way you see Muhammad fulfilling Deuteronomy 18:18 -19(which he doesn't) since he wrong, he totally fulfills Deuteronomy 18:20-22.

20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'
21 And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'-
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

[York]

His words have come to pass. To you be your way and to me mine (O ye that reject faith!)

You follow the words of Paul, not Jesus.

[Habit7]

What is wrong with following Paul's words? They are just as inspired by God as Jesus'.

You follow the words of Muhammad, not Jesus, who told you you should follow Jesus.


Torah:
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Gospel:
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus proclaimed his divinity.




Muhammad was wrong. And if he was mortal fallible human being not deserving of worship it should hurt you to say so....but I am sure it does.

[York]

The gospel of John, wow that's the best you can do!

Prophets are not worshipped except your worship of Jesus and he is innocent of it. That's the only sin for which he will have to answer on that dreadful day, your sin of worshipping him. Which other prophet claimed divinity? Didn't all of them die also?

Carry on...you will only see what you want to see, evil and adulterous generation!

[York]

And who does more wrong than one who invents a lie about GOD...

[Habit7]

We have Torahs that predate Muhammad by hundreds of years, likewise Gospels, all of which are identical to Torah and Gospel today in my bible. So when Muhammad tells me to corroborate what he says in the Torah and Gospels which are supposed to be the words of Allah and they don't corroborate him. And that Allah's words can't be changed. Also that the Quran never says that the Torah, Psalms or Gospels were corrupted. However they all were compiled long before the Quran and widely distributed, so if one were to corrupt them one would have to find all the multiple copies around the world and change these handwritten documents, an impossibility.

Either Muhammad was wrong about the Torah and the Gospel corroborating him.
Or Muhammad was wrong that the God of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel being the Allah of the Quran.

Either ways Muhammad is wrong.





And while in some convoluted way you see Muhammad fulfilling Deuteronomy 18:18 -19(which he doesn't) since he wrong, he totally fulfills Deuteronomy 18:20-22.

20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'
21 And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'-
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Still no answer for this.


My consistent Christianity is consistent.

[Slartibartfast]

So York you ever got chance to answer my questions? I know Habit was keeping you busy whike he was educating you.

[Numb3r4]

I am going to invent my own religion.

[York]

So York you ever got chance to answer my questions? I know Habit was keeping you busy whike he was educating you.

well you say you don't believe but you seem to be sympathetic to christianity, a people who have gone astray.

[York]

Slarti,
Read the Quran and hadith (sunnah). The Shariah Laws are derived from them.

[York]

We have Torahs that predate Muhammad by hundreds of years, likewise Gospels, all of which are identical to Torah and Gospel today in my bible. So when Muhammad tells me to corroborate what he says in the Torah and Gospels which are supposed to be the words of Allah and they don't corroborate him. And that Allah's words can't be changed. Also that the Quran never says that the Torah, Psalms or Gospels were corrupted. However they all were compiled long before the Quran and widely distributed, so if one were to corrupt them one would have to find all the multiple copies around the world and change these handwritten documents, an impossibility.

Either Muhammad was wrong about the Torah and the Gospel corroborating him.
Or Muhammad was wrong that the God of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel being the Allah of the Quran.

Either ways Muhammad is wrong.





And while in some convoluted way you see Muhammad fulfilling Deuteronomy 18:18 -19(which he doesn't) since he wrong, he totally fulfills Deuteronomy 18:20-22.

20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'
21 And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'-
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Still no answer for this.


My consistent Christianity is consistent.

Torahs and Gospels ...plural!

Muhammad spoke in the name of God, 1 God, not gods like father, son and holy spirit. 3 gods.

Tell me what word he spoke that did not come to pass?

[York]

http://www.fwrobertson.com/sermons/ser87.htm

Moses was an orphan. Islamically an orphan is one who has lost his father.

The Arabic word for orphan is yatîm. Its linguistic meaning is simply "something that is singular and alone." When the word is used in the context of a human being, it means "a minor who has lost his or her father."

Generally, an orphaned child is confronted by poverty and has a weak position in society. A minor child in such a compromised set of circumstances possesses nothing, not even the knowledge of how to cope. A child does not have the experience and life skills to make it on his or her own.

When such a child reaches the age of majority – and we can define that as the time when the person acquires the ability to manage properly whatever money he or she might possess or come into possession of – then the person ceases to be an orphan as defined by Islamic Law.