The Religion Discussion

[York]

Also, just to get a bit ahead of you. Christians also don't worship Mary or any of the Saints. Some may pray to them to intercede on their behalf (i.e. carry the message) in hopes that God will take it more seriously coming from someone that really matters. Ok I'm not sure on the why but Christianity teaches you to pray to and worship God only. Mary and some saints are prayed through not to.

Really??? Really???

So when you pray to a dead saint, is that not worshipping them? When you pray to God, is that not worshipping him? When you pray to Mary, is that not worshipping her?

Well clearly it's not. Just like how ppl pray to FedEx, DHL, TTPOST, UPS and email...to carry the message nah! That's not worship.

Come on Bluefete you started this thread, you should know better!!!

[York]

how de profit know it was god speakin to him and not de debbil?

the devil did speak to him, its called the Satanic Verses.

And to whom did the devil speak and tempt in the Bible? Did he also manhandle him and take him from one place to another?

[Slartibartfast]

Also, just to get a bit ahead of you. Christians also don't worship Mary or any of the Saints. Some may pray to them to intercede on their behalf (i.e. carry the message) in hopes that God will take it more seriously coming from someone that really matters. Ok I'm not sure on the why but Christianity teaches you to pray to and worship God only. Mary and some saints are prayed through not to.

Really??? Really???

So when you pray to a dead saint, is that not worshipping them? When you pray to God, is that not worshipping him? When you pray to Mary, is that not worshipping her?

Well clearly it's not. Just like how ppl pray to FedEx, DHL, TTPOST, UPS and email...to carry the message nah! That's not worship.

Come on Bluefete you started this thread, you should know better!!!

Good analogy. You ever bought something online and got it sent to one of these companies? Does that mean you bought the package for that company? Or are you sending the package to them just so they can transmit it to you?

Can't believe a man could go his entire adult life without knowing how sending mail works yes...lol. Like I said, your ignorance outweighs my interest. Do have a blessed weekend.

[metalgear2095]

For example, the Quran claims that one night, God took Muhammad to the "al-Aqsa" mosque is in Jerusalem:

"Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing." - Quran 17:1

The Muslim army conquered Jerusalem in 637 AD and the al-Aqsa mosque was completed in 705 AD. The problem with the above passage in the Quran is that Muhammad died in 632 AD, which was 5 years before the Muslim army reached Jerusalem and 73 years before the al-Aqsa mosque was built.
Or consider Quran 20:92-95, which claims that Moses confronted "Aaron" and a "Samaritan" for having made the golden calf for the Israelites while he (Moses) was on Mount Sinai:

"[Moses] said, "O Aaron, what prevented you, when you saw them going astray, from following me? Then have you disobeyed my order?" [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, do not seize [me] by my beard or by my head. Indeed, I feared that you would say, 'You caused division among the Children of Israel, and you did not observe [or await] my word.'" [Moses] said, "And what is your case, O Samaritan?"- Quran 20:92-95

Assyria conquered the Jewish northern kingdom in 722 BC, exiled its upper class and brought in conquered people from other lands, who intermarried with the lower class Jews who had been allowed to stay. Their offspring were called "Samaritans" because they occupied the region of "Samaria", which was named after its original owner, "Shemer" (see 1 Kings 16:24 in the Bible). The Jews despised the Samaritans both for being a mixed race and for setting up their own temple to compete against the temple in Jerusalem.

But the golden calf incident near Mount Sinai mentioned inQuran 20:92-95 above took place in 1446 BC, which was 725 years before the first Samaritan was born in 721 BC.




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[metalgear2095]

These Koran writers should have studied history a Lil more

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[Slartibartfast]

Or maybe historians should have studied the Quran.

[York]

Maybe if you do, you will believe.

[York]

For example, the Quran claims that one night, God took Muhammad to the "al-Aqsa" mosque is in Jerusalem:

"Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing." - Quran 17:1

The Muslim army conquered Jerusalem in 637 AD and the al-Aqsa mosque was completed in 705 AD. The problem with the above passage in the Quran is that Muhammad died in 632 AD, which was 5 years before the Muslim army reached Jerusalem and 73 years before the al-Aqsa mosque was built.
Or consider Quran 20:92-95, which claims that Moses confronted "Aaron" and a "Samaritan" for having made the golden calf for the Israelites while he (Moses) was on Mount Sinai:

"[Moses] said, "O Aaron, what prevented you, when you saw them going astray, from following me? Then have you disobeyed my order?" [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, do not seize [me] by my beard or by my head. Indeed, I feared that you would say, 'You caused division among the Children of Israel, and you did not observe [or await] my word.'" [Moses] said, "And what is your case, O Samaritan?"- Quran 20:92-95

Assyria conquered the Jewish northern kingdom in 722 BC, exiled its upper class and brought in conquered people from other lands, who intermarried with the lower class Jews who had been allowed to stay. Their offspring were called "Samaritans" because they occupied the region of "Samaria", which was named after its original owner, "Shemer" (see 1 Kings 16:24 in the Bible). The Jews despised the Samaritans both for being a mixed race and for setting up their own temple to compete against the temple in Jerusalem.

But the golden calf incident near Mount Sinai mentioned inQuran 20:92-95 above took place in 1446 BC, which was 725 years before the first Samaritan was born in 721 BC.




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Metal,
If you only listen to propaganda you will never find the truth.

The incident about Masjid al Aqsa is called the Night Journey and Ascension, Isra wal Mir'aj. Google it. Read about this in a book about the Seerah (life) of the prophet Muhammad. On this night God took him from Mecca to Jerusalem and then to the heavens. He was given the gift of prayer among other incidents related. When he made this claim, the people asked him to describe Jerusalem. He did so and even described a caravan, etc.

Secondly, the word is not Samaritan, it is Samiri, referring to Musa bin Zafar, the man who made the golden cow forbthe children of Israel to worship. He was from the village of Samarra. His people, the Bajarma, worshipped cows.

Why was this practice scolded? Is it not like worshipping ancestors? The golden coe was a focal point, blah blah blah...justify it however you wish!

[Slartibartfast]

Maybe if you do, you will believe.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Good one!

[York]

A life without purpose then?

[Slartibartfast]

Life itself is purpose enough.

[York]

Try reading the Noble Quran translation by Khan and Hilali, further explanation by Ibn Katheer (qtafsircom). In it verily do hearts find peace / tranquility.

This is for all of mankind.

[Habit7]

No, because Jesus didn't fit the description of the Messiah in the Old Testament. Muhammad IS the promised Messiah so described.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.




How does Muhammad fulfil this Old Testament prophecy of the Messiah?

[zoom rader]

Mem quoting Bible and not knowing that Jesus was hindu. In practical all Christians are really hindus.

[meccalli]

And the Lord smote the three divisions that were there, and he punished them according to their works and designs; those who said, We will ascend to heaven and serve our gods, became like apes and elephants; and those who said, We will smite the heaven with arrows, the Lord killed them, one man through the hand of his neighbour; and the third division of those who said, We will ascend to heaven and fight against him, the Lord scattered them throughout the earth.

An interesting tidbit of pseudepigrapha for those might've wondered about hanuman and ganesh.

[York]

No, because Jesus didn't fit the description of the Messiah in the Old Testament. Muhammad IS the promised Messiah so described.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.




How does Muhammad fulfil this Old Testament prophecy of the Messiah?

how does jesus fit it? He did not but you await his return to fulfil.

There are other prophesies in the old testament of a prophet to come similar to Moses....DEUTERONOMY 18:18-19.

[meccalli]

That's old news. Acts 3 specifically.

[Habit7]

No, because Jesus didn't fit the description of the Messiah in the Old Testament. Muhammad IS the promised Messiah so described.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.




How does Muhammad fulfil this Old Testament prophecy of the Messiah?

how does jesus fit it? He did not but you await his return to fulfil.

Jesus clearly fulfils this prophecy.
Jesus was born as the promised son to his parents, Muhammad was an orphan.
From his birth Herod (the govt) tried to kill him, no govt was concerned with Muhammad (before he later rose up an army to fight them).
Jesus was divine (Mighty God), Muhammad was a fallible human like the rest of us.
Jesus ministry spread from 12 Jewish peasants in a corner of the Roman Empire into the largest influence of the world, Muhammad fought by the sword by forced conversions and capital punishment for apostasy.
Jesus is a descendent of David, Muhammad is not.
Jesus' kingdom will reign forever, Muhammad has no kingdom
God of the Bible has accomplished Jesus' kingdom, Allah of the Quran is said to be the cause of Jesus' kingdom, nothing for Muhammad.

This is just one of the many Old Testament prophecies that are specifically fulfilled in Jesus. Muslims have to draw verses out of context to try to shoehorn in Muhammad, but it still doesnt work. For example:

[There are other prophesies in the old testament of a prophet to come similar to Moses....DEUTERONOMY 18:18-19.

Let's start from verse 17

Deuteronomy 18:17-18 The Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well. I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

God is talking to Moses (a Jew) saying is going to raise up a prophet from among his countrymen (the nation of Israel). Muhammad is not a Jew neither is he from the nation of Israel. Jesus is.

Jesus is the Messiah and he warned of false messiahs (Matthew 24:24), Muhammad is one of them.

[York]

That's old news. Acts 3 specifically.

and who wrote and authorised Acts in the bible? The prophesy again is not specific and Muhammad more fits the profile than Jesus:
1. Like unto Moses
2. From among your brethren
3. Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you
4. Every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

[HSA]

Mem quoting Bible and not knowing that Jesus was hindu. In practical all Christians are really hindus.

if you take into consideration that christians have pictures and statues of jesus in their church...same with hindus who have pictures and murtis in their temples....but muslims dont have any pictures....

i heard a muslim fella saying that the reason is that their worship is on a higher level. they pray to god directly...no need to pass tru mary or jesus to pray for them

a next point was that the muslim god prohibit any pictures of the last prophet because god knew how mankind was and if there were any pictures at all, people would start worshiping the pictures instead of god. just like what the christians do....

i asked a pundit one day..i say baba, i dos make murtis... shouldnt i be worshipped since i make your gods??? baba say that the murtis is a remberance of god and god can take any form.

that same day i was watching youtube when zakir naik come across the screen. he says that the hindu scriptures say that god has no image and there is not a second or a third. so i went to the temple and luckily they had the different books. when i looked for the verse it was indeed there..

all in all....i am thinking if the pundits are really teaching the truth or just self glorification like pastor cuffie???

[Habit7]

The prophesy again is not specific and Muhammad more fits the profile than Jesus:
1. Like unto Moses
2. From among your brethren

Did you just read what I last posted? #1 & 2 totally disqualifies Muhammad.

I can't but feel that York is one of the previous Muslims on this thread just by another name. Avoiding intelligent logical answers to questions posed to him but just repeating Islamic rhetoric without evidence.

[York]

The prophesy again is not specific and Muhammad more fits the profile than Jesus:
1. Like unto Moses
2. From among your brethren

Did you just read what I last posted? #1 & 2 totally disqualifies Muhammad.

I can't but feel that York is one of the previous Muslims on this thread just by another name. Avoiding intelligent logical answers to questions posed to him but just repeating Islamic rhetoric without evidence.

I can feel that you are wrong, compare:

1. birth
2. from among their "brethren" not "countrymen". Ishmaelites and Israelites.
3. married and had children
4. prophethood at age of maturity, 40, i think in case of Moses
5. put HIS words in the prophet's mouth (Quran), tablet in case of Moses
6. Speak in the name of GOD, "bismillah ar rahman nir Raheem" preceeds all chapters of Quran except 1.
7. was an orphan, Moses grew up in house of the Pharoah
8. made migration from oppression to place of security
9. was leader of the new state

this is just off the top of my head...

[bluesclues]

No, because Jesus didn't fit the description of the Messiah in the Old Testament. Muhammad IS the promised Messiah so described.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.




How does Muhammad fulfil this Old Testament prophecy of the Messiah?

how does jesus fit it? He did not but you await his return to fulfil.

Jesus clearly fulfils this prophecy.
Jesus was born as the promised son to his parents, Muhammad was an orphan.
From his birth Herod (the govt) tried to kill him, no govt was concerned with Muhammad (before he later rose up an army to fight them).
Jesus was divine (Mighty God), Muhammad was a fallible human like the rest of us.
Jesus ministry spread from 12 Jewish peasants in a corner of the Roman Empire into the largest influence of the world, Muhammad fought by the sword by forced conversions and capital punishment for apostasy.
Jesus is a descendent of David, Muhammad is not.
Jesus' kingdom will reign forever, Muhammad has no kingdom
God of the Bible has accomplished Jesus' kingdom, Allah of the Quran is said to be the cause of Jesus' kingdom, nothing for Muhammad.

This is just one of the many Old Testament prophecies that are specifically fulfilled in Jesus. Muslims have to draw verses out of context to try to shoehorn in Muhammad, but it still doesnt work. For example:

[There are other prophesies in the old testament of a prophet to come similar to Moses....DEUTERONOMY 18:18-19.

Let's start from verse 17

Deuteronomy 18:17-18 The Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well. I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

God is talking to Moses (a Jew) saying is going to raise up a prophet from among his countrymen (the nation of Israel). Muhammad is not a Jew neither is he from the nation of Israel. Jesus is.

Jesus is the Messiah and he warned of false messiahs (Matthew 24:24), Muhammad is one of them.

all that and all u need to rest on is

muhammad was an orphan. it is simple that the reason he was an orphan was to avoid any chance of tracing his lineage which would prove he was no descendent of david. maybe. but we cant know.. because he was an orphan. case closed

[Numb3r4]

Mem quoting Bible and not knowing that Jesus was hindu. In practical all Christians are really hindus.

if you take into consideration that christians have pictures and statues of jesus in their church...same with hindus who have pictures and murtis in their temples....but muslims dont have any pictures....

i heard a muslim fella saying that the reason is that their worship is on a higher level. they pray to god directly...no need to pass tru mary or jesus to pray for them

a next point was that the muslim god prohibit any pictures of the last prophet because god knew how mankind was and if there were any pictures at all, people would start worshiping the pictures instead of god. just like what the christians do....

i asked a pundit one day..i say baba, i dos make murtis... shouldnt i be worshipped since i make your gods??? baba say that the murtis is a remberance of god and god can take any form.

that same day i was watching youtube when zakir naik come across the screen. he says that the hindu scriptures say that god has no image and there is not a second or a third. so i went to the temple and luckily they had the different books. when i looked for the verse it was indeed there..

all in all....i am thinking if the pundits are really teaching the truth or just self glorification like pastor cuffie???

I think that idols stem from man's need to personify God (not that he can be), to make God more relatable (to the human condition). The idols were a mechanism by which men could better conceptualize God, his abilities and what he has to offer not just what he could do on a grand scale but the specificity of his abilities.

[Slartibartfast]

Try reading the Noble Quran translation by Khan and Hilali, further explanation by Ibn Katheer (qtafsircom). In it verily do hearts find peace / tranquility.

This is for all of mankind.

York, I have to ask, is English your first language?

Do you know what the words "peace" and "tranquility" mean (meanings included below)?

Do you think it is a good thing that your heart finds peace and tranquility and hatred and prejudice?

Of all the versions, is this really the best version that you can put forward http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/muslim-extremism-found-in-problematic-quran-translation-forum-told?

peace
noun
1.
freedom from disturbance; tranquillity

tranquillity
noun
the quality or state of being tranquil; calm.


Also some follow up questions
Do you believe in equal rights for men and women?
Do you believe Muslims deserve any special rights of privileges for being Muslim (like being allowed to set up their own communities and run it according to their own laws as opposed to the laws of the country that they live in?
And lastly, do you believe that every creed and race should find an equal place?

[Numb3r4]

God is real.
Jesus is a story in a book.

- Toilet cubicle in Town Centre Mall PoS

[bluesclues]

little by little allyuh will realize what i tell allyuh long time. all the religions came from prophets. the region had its own cultural way of expressing God with attributes, statues, local food flora and fauna and wildlife which all act as symbols for teaching. thus.. all religions are of God. the uniting of the knowledge contained in all religions will provide the full expression of the path to God. since they all agree and express the same thing, albeit in their own style. however.. NONE were given the full power and Glory of God's message. meaning.. each religion has something that the other is missing. and without believing in unity and peace you will never seek to unify the knowledge across the range of religious documents. Christians and Muslims really are brothers, that is what islam was designed to be. and both tell the same story of Christ, however, the Quran has details on parts of the story which arent in the bible, and vice versa.

Jesus wasnt a hindu just like im not a Christian. im a Godlian. i always dealt with God direct, and not through Jesus. i prayed to God 24/7 for years and then meditated for more.

please bare in mind, a religion is merely a group of people performing symbolic acts which represent the path to God. this is why the pope says, not all people who go to church are good people. something ive also said. going to church, praying in church etc, in reality, does not do much for one's salvation. what matters more is how u live and the choices u make in life. that is what God is watching. the choices u make as they come from your heart.. before they even reach your brain or to action. thus religion merely acts a public display of believers and supporters of the knowledge contained within the relevant scripts. whether it be christian, hindu or buddhist. the practices do nothing. just like taking the walk to mecca DOES NOT make you enlightened to Godhood. this symbolic walk is really about the struggles and hardship, the Jihad of life on the way to salvation. anyone who say they were saved and it was easy is lying... or has more details to provide. it is hard. it draws on every faculty u have at it's peak, and then asks for more juice. this is the only way God knows ur heart is truly with finding him. what will u sacrifice for his communion? or better yet... what would you not sacrifice for him? if there is anything u wouldnt sacrifice, chances are you wont get through.

[Habit7]

The prophesy again is not specific and Muhammad more fits the profile than Jesus:
1. Like unto Moses
2. From among your brethren

Did you just read what I last posted? #1 & 2 totally disqualifies Muhammad.

I can't but feel that York is one of the previous Muslims on this thread just by another name. Avoiding intelligent logical answers to questions posed to him but just repeating Islamic rhetoric without evidence.

I can feel that you are wrong, compare:

1. birth are you actually saying being born is a distinguishing character?
2. from among their "brethren" not "countrymen". Ishmaelites and Israelites. The word is translated brethren or countrymen. Israelites would never consider Ishmaelites as brethren. Isaac was he child of promise through whom the covenant would proceed. Not his half-brother Ishmael (Genesis 17:18-21).
3. married and had children
4. prophethood at age of maturity, 40, i think in case of Moses Moses was 80, try again (Exodus 7:7)
5. put HIS words in the prophet's mouth (Quran), tablet in case of Moses Tablets were in his hands, he wasnt biting it (Exodus 32:15).
6. Speak in the name of GOD, "bismillah ar rahman nir Raheem" preceeds all chapters of Quran except 1. Jesus spoke for God (John 7:16), Muhammad spoke for a spirit whom he believed was angel Gabriel, if at times he wasn't speaking for Satan (Quran 53:2-5)
7. was an orphan, Moses grew up in house of the Pharoah Moses was not an orphan, his biological mother took care of him (Exodus 2:8)
8. made migration from oppression to place of security But Moses didnt return with a marauding horde to deal out retribution, Muhammad did.
9. was leader of the new state Yeah the Islamic State, we all know how Godly that was...

this is just off the top of my head...

[York]

Try reading the Noble Quran translation by Khan and Hilali, further explanation by Ibn Katheer (qtafsircom). In it verily do hearts find peace / tranquility.

This is for all of mankind.

York, I have to ask, is English your first language?

Do you know what the words "peace" and "tranquility" mean (meanings included below)?

Do you think it is a good thing that your heart finds peace and tranquility and hatred and prejudice?

Of all the versions, is this really the best version that you can put forward http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/muslim-extremism-found-in-problematic-quran-translation-forum-told?

peace
noun
1.
freedom from disturbance; tranquillity

tranquillity
noun
the quality or state of being tranquil; calm.


Also some follow up questions
Do you believe in equal rights for men and women?
Do you believe Muslims deserve any special rights of privileges for being Muslim (like being allowed to set up their own communities and run it according to their own laws as opposed to the laws of the country that they live in?
And lastly, do you believe that every creed and race should find an equal place?

the dilemma is that no translation in any language will be 100% accurate. That is why we have the original arabic text. The language existed when it was revealed and it still does now. The same can't be said for other religious texts.

Each verse can be explained further and the translation just gives insertions in brackets to help the reader tomu derstand the context and meaning.

I have to ask about the persons inthe link who have issues with it...what are their qualifications? Because someone is a doctor does not mean that they have the prerequisite to be considered a scholar in Islam.

Equal rights NO! We talk about justice not equality. Equality can be unjust.

No special treatment individually but maybe as a group. We have to look to the rulings pertaining to muslims living in a non-muslim state. Like treaties, etc.

No every creed and race shall not find an equal place.

[Slartibartfast]

I've noted the rest for alter discussion but this here intrigues me.

Equal rights NO! We talk about justice not equality. Equality can be unjust.

No special treatment individually but maybe as a group. We have to look to the rulings pertaining to muslims living in a non-muslim state. Like treaties, etc.

No every creed and race shall not find an equal place.

In what ways can equality be unjust?

Do you believe non-muslims living in a muslim state should be entitled to the same privelages/ freedoms as muslims living in a non-muslim state? If you give examples of what you mean by pecial treatment I can give counter examples and further the discussion.

Why shouldn't every creed and race find an equal race? What creed and what race should be on top and which ones below and why?