The Religion Discussion

[megadoc1]

Wtf is freedom to not sin? Never got that freedom in Christ thing. There isn't any freedom at all

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yes there is

[meccalli]

Wtf is freedom to not sin? Never got that freedom in Christ thing. There isn't any freedom at all

Man is a natural slave to sin. Because of what the messiah did, we are freed from this condition, becoming rather bondservants to righteousness. You can perceive this when you accept the messiah and God's spirit which transforms your mind and thinking, being now able to perceive that which you could not in your former self.

what do u mean by this?

That we are still an earthen vessel, made of flesh and it's inclinations and that God will keep us on the grounds that we keep ourselves in him. People will be cut off and lose their assurance of salvation when they lose sight of God and go back to living in sin. Yeshua himself said, many will lose their love in trying times, but those that endure to the end will be saved. Salvation is a continual process that works up to that day in which we receive new bodies and enter the kingdom, which is why we are called upon to work out our salvation daily in the fear of God.

edit,
York
It is not the true religion of God given to Jesus./quote

What is then, and where is he?

[bluesclues]

The conscience is not the spirit of God. Our mind and conscience is renewed into spiritual understanding when we accept the messiah and the spirit of truth and thus becomes a godly instrument of correction.

incorrect. the Holy Spirit is here among us doing it's work on earth. part of that job is to be a guide to man and point out his sin. so he may recognize it and seek to repent should he be aspiring to God's grace. it does this work through the prompting of what u call your conscience.

remember that now, you do not own your soul. the life force you possess is on loan from God. you are given 2 paths. one will degrade your spirit the other will strengthen it. when your spirit has become so strong that it is felt by the body. this is what we call spiritual awareness. and is usually preceded by a visit to Heaven in the presence of God. you are your ego and the spirit of life. our choices and attitudes in life affect our spirit either positively or negatively. u need to be sure u have significantly higher positivity than negativity. and the Holy Spirit assists you in your choices 24/7 expressed as your very conscience. as you grow in obedience to your conscience you grow in relationship with God. and more and more is revealed to you as you progress in strengthening and understanding that relationship and the communication of the conscience. it is indeed the Holy Spirit at your side. guiding u day by day. it shares the essence of God that is omnipotence on earth. it is everywhere. permeating everything without restriction or limit. and animates all living things.

[Habit7]

"Christians" have been deceived in their religion, the one/s they now follow. It is not the true religion of God given to Jesus. God does not dwell in anyone. He is not in need.

It seems you just wanna throw barbs and answer questions posed to you. But since you mention deceived let me quote what I told another Muslim in this thread.

Funny you brought up Sura 4:156-159 because it has some shocking conclusions I want you to consider.

The God of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel, the one you believe is Allah said
Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good,
Psalms 101:7 He who practices deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who speaks falsehood shall not maintain his position before me
Jesus rebuking the Jews, comparing them to Satan said John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

That being said, what is the reason why I and others belong to the largest religion in the world?

Well according to the Quran, 2,000 years ago, Allah deceived the followers of Jesus into believing that He died on the cross when He truly didn't. Although this deception ended up fulfilling Old Testament prophecy and Jesus' teachings and all the apostles died as martyrs never renouncing this fact, Christianity ended up becoming the major shaper of modern society all thanks to Allah.

But this deception is not strange to Allah for the Quran calls Allah a makr and the best of makr: But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54 (source lexicon for makr http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm). Or even Muhammad prayed to Allah that he would not deceive him but deceive for him "Alayya, Wamkur Li Wa La Tamkur ‘Alayya" http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/48/182

So consider that for Christian, they understand from Islam
1] Christianity is Allah's evil plot against them
2] Satan - the father of all lies (John 8:44) appears to have the same attributes as Allah - the best of all deceivers (3:54)
3] How can Islamists be sure that Allah is not giving them the same deception that he claims to give Christians?

[York]

Firstly, my claim that Christians have been deceived is by Satan, not GOD. I dont know about Christians but Muslims dont have a bad opinion of GOD. He is the Best of Planners, not the best of deceivers. You have translated incorrectly. Is the police planning for proactive approach to counteract criminals, are their actions bad or evil? Absolutely not!

The issue here is the wilfulacceptance by Christians to worship more than one god by making Jesus and the angel Gabriel gods besides GOD the Father as you call Him. Deceived by Satan, plain and simple. You made the choice, not God.

[Slartibartfast]

Now I like bashing Christianity just as much as any normal person but only if it's a fair fight. York I think you misinterpreted Christian beliefs. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone imply the Angel Gabriel was a God. Do you think his first name was Angel. I guess it makes sense if you say the full name with a Mexican accent.

Also, Christianity worships one God and one God only. It's three persons in one God. The father, son and holy ghost make up God which is all one. Of course that makes no fukin sense and was afterwards called "one of the great mysteries" to stop people from trying to make sense of it.

I'm sure Habit could comment on the accuracy of what I have said. If you want to bash Christianity or any other religion, please do it honestly. It makes no sense trying to disprove lies with more lies.

Also, just to get a bit ahead of you. Christians also don't worship Mary or any of the Saints. Some may pray to them to intercede on their behalf (i.e. carry the message) in hopes that God will take it more seriously coming from someone that really matters. Ok I'm not sure on the why but Christianity teaches you to pray to and worship God only. Mary and some saints are prayed through not to.

[Habit7]

Firstly, my claim that Christians have been deceived is by Satan, not GOD. I dont know about Christians but Muslims dont have a bad opinion of GOD. He is the Best of Planners, not the best of deceivers. You have translated incorrectly. Is the police planning for proactive approach to counteract criminals, are their actions bad or evil? Absolutely not!

The issue here is the wilfulacceptance by Christians to worship more than one god by making Jesus and the angel Gabriel gods besides GOD the Father as you call Him. Deceived by Satan, plain and simple. You made the choice, not God.

Firstly I didn't translate anything. I quoted the Quran and quoted from a quranic lexicon. I further quoted in the hadith were Muhammed prayed to Allah for him not to be deceived. Sura 61:14 clearly states that Allah is the one that makes Christians believe. So you just called Allah, Satan. You just committed shirk.

It seems like you need a Saviour now to atone for your sins...

[bluesclues]

Firstly, my claim that Christians have been deceived is by Satan, not GOD. I dont know about Christians but Muslims dont have a bad opinion of GOD. He is the Best of Planners, not the best of deceivers. You have translated incorrectly. Is the police planning for proactive approach to counteract criminals, are their actions bad or evil? Absolutely not!

The issue here is the wilfulacceptance by Christians to worship more than one god by making Jesus and the angel Gabriel gods besides GOD the Father as you call Him. Deceived by Satan, plain and simple. You made the choice, not God.

Firstly I didn't translate anything. I quoted the Quran and quoted from a quranic lexicon. I further quoted in the hadith were Muhammed prayed to Allah for him not to be deceived. Sura 61:14 clearly states that Allah is the one that makes Christians believe. So you just called Allah, Satan. You just committed shirk.

It seems like you need a Saviour now to atone for your sins...

Spirituality is about balance. and being an agent of balance. God being king of the balancers. this is why egypt used the scales symbol in their teachings. thus, God/Allah is the greatest of deceivers TOWARD DECEIVERS. it is both in Bible and Quran that God repairs the balance by plotting for those who have evil plots. in the eastern mysteries it is observed as "Karma".

if you read Micah 2 you will see where God admits to plotting against those who plot inequity.

but it is obvious that York was not familiar with the particular verse from the Quran where Allah states " I am the greatest of Deceivers"

and this is true. with proper interpretation. God is the greatest at EVERYTHING. bowling snowboarding playing chess, swimming. ANY competition u go with God you will lose. and this is the message the verse carries across. not that Allah of the Quran is Satan.. .... ... .. Habit7

[York]

Now I like bashing Christianity just as much as any normal person but only if it's a fair fight. York I think you misinterpreted Christian beliefs. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone imply the Angel Gabriel was a God. Do you think his first name was Angel. I guess it makes sense if you say the full name with a Mexican accent.

Also, Christianity worships one God and one God only. It's three persons in one God. The father, son and holy ghost make up God which is all one. Of course that makes no fukin sense and was afterwards called "one of the great mysteries" to stop people from trying to make sense of it.

I'm sure Habit could comment on the accuracy of what I have said. If you want to bash Christianity or any other religion, please do it honestly. It makes no sense trying to disprove lies with more lies.

Also, just to get a bit ahead of you. Christians also don't worship Mary or any of the Saints. Some may pray to them to intercede on their behalf (i.e. carry the message) in hopes that God will take it more seriously coming from someone that really matters. Ok I'm not sure on the why but Christianity teaches you to pray to and worship God only. Mary and some saints are prayed through not to.

1. The Angel Gabriel was made a part of the Trinity called the Holy Spirit.

2. 3 Persons = 3 Gods, plain and simple. Keep fooling yourselves to believe otherwise.

3. Praying to someone is called worship. If that person is dead, it is no different than praying to a stone or wooden idol for the same help or intercession or whatever you may wish to call it. God is not deaf or deficient in any way that He would need someone to go thru like FIFA and Jack Warner...Can someone dead, like your ancestors, hear and benefit you in any way? They are more in need of you to pray for them than vice versa. This is what satan has done to christianity, turned everything upside down.

Please quote for me the evidence in the corrupted (changed by man) Bible that says that you can pray to dead ppl for help.

Slarti,
You are very unsure of that which you speak, but claiming with certainty that i am being dishonest and lying. Please be more specific. You better pray to Habit now, while he is still alive, to help you understand better the concepts of ONENESS OF GOD and WORSHIPPING OTHER BESIDES GOD. The alternative is to look to Islam for the correct explanation as GOD has informed in the Qur'an (His Words) and to His messenger (Muhammad).

[York]

39803: Can Allaah be described as plotting etc

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Can Allaah be described as plotting, deceiving and betraying as in the verses (interpretation of the meaning):
“they were plotting and Allaah too was plotting”
[al-Anfaal 8:30]
“Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allaah, but it is He Who deceives them”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]?.

Praise be to Allaah.

The attributes of Allaah are all attributes of perfection, pointing to the best and most perfect of meanings. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and for Allaah is the highest description. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise”

[al-Nahl 16:60]

“His is the highest description (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but He, and there is nothing comparable unto Him) in the heavens and in the earth. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise”

[al-Room 30:27]

Al-Sa’di said in his Tafseer (commentary) – p. 718, 1065:

The highest description means the most perfect attributes.

Attributes are of three types:

1 – Attributes of perfection – in which there is no shortcoming whatsoever. These attributes apply to Allaah in absolute terms and are not limited or restricted in any way. Examples of that include His knowledge, power, hearing, seeing, mercy, etc.

2 – Attributes which imply imperfection and shortcomings. These can never be ascribed to Allaah, such as sleeping, being unable, doing wrong or oppressing, betraying, etc.

3 – Attributes which may be perfect or imperfect, depending on the context. These cannot be ascribed to Allaah in absolute terms, and they cannot be denied in the case of Allaah in absolute terms. If the context implies perfection then they can be ascribed to Allaah; if it implies imperfection then they cannot be ascribed to Allaah. Examples include: plotting, deceiving and mocking.

Plotting against, betraying and mocking the enemy are attributes of perfection, because that is indicative of complete knowledge, power and might, and so on.

But plotting against the sincere believers is an attribute of imperfection.

Hence these characteristics are not ascribed to Allaah in absolute terms, rather they are mentioned in such a context as to indicate that these are attributes of perfection.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allaah, but it is He Who deceives them”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]

This is deceiving the hypocrites.

And He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) when the disbelievers plotted against you (O Muhammad) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to get you out (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allaah too was plotting; and Allaah is the Best of those who plot”

[al-Anfaal 8:30]

This is a plot against the enemies of Allaah who were plotting against the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Allaah says of the hypocrites (interpretation of the meaning):

“And when they meet those who believe, they say: ‘We believe,’ but when they are alone with their Shayaateen (devils — polytheists, hypocrites), they say: ‘Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking.’

Allaah mocks at them and gives them increase in their wrong-doing to wander blindly”

[al-Baqarah 2:14-15]

This is mocking the hypocrites.

These attributes are to be regarded as indicating perfection in this context. Hence we say that Allaah mocks the hypocrites and deceives them, and that He plots against His enemies, and so on. But it is not permissible to describe Allaah as mocking or deceiving in absolute terms, because that does not indicate perfection.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: Can Allaah be described as plotting and named as such?

He replied:

Allaah cannot be described as plotting except in a limited sense; He cannot be described as such in absolute terms. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Did they then feel secure against the Plan of Allaah? None feels secure from the Plan of Allaah except the people who are the losers”

[al-A’raaf 7:99]

This verse indicate that Allaah has a plan or plot, which was to confound them without them realizing it. This is akin to the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari: “War is deceit.”

If it is asked: How can Allaah be described as plotting when this seems to be something blameworthy?

The answer is that plotting in the right circumstances may be something praiseworthy that points to the strength of the plotter, and that he is superior to his enemy. Hence Allaah cannot be described as plotting in absolute terms, and we cannot say “Allaah is a Plotter.” Rather this attribute is mentioned in a context where it is positive, such as the verses (interpretation of the meaning):

“they were plotting and Allaah too was plotting”

[al-Anfaal 8:30]

“So they plotted a plot, and We planned a plan, while they perceived not”

[al-Naml 27:50]

And we cannot say in absolute terms that this cannot be ascribed to Allaah, rather in contexts where it is something positive it may be ascribed to Him, and in contexts where it is not something positive, it should not be ascribed to Him. So Allaah should not be called by a name which refers to this, so we cannot say that one of the names of Allaah is “the Plotter”. Plotting is one of His actions, because it has to do with the Will of Allaah.

Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 1/170.

He was also asked: Can Allaah be described as betraying, or as deceiving, as in the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allaah, but it is He Who deceives them”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]?

He replied:

With regard to betrayal, this is something that can never be ascribed to Allaah, because it is something shameful in all circumstances, and it is plotting at a time of trust, which is blameworthy. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But if they intend to betray you (O Muhammad), they indeed betrayed Allaah before. So He gave (you) power over them. And Allaah is All-Knower, All-Wise”

[al-Anfaal 8:71]

And He did not say: So He betrayed them.

With regard to deceiving, it is like plotting. It may be ascribed to Allaah when it is something positive, but it cannot be ascribed to Him in absolute terms. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allaah, but it is He Who deceives them”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]

Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 1/171

And Allaah knows best.

[York]

QUR'AN CHAPTER 61:

1 Whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth glorifies Allah. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

2 O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?

3 Most hateful it is with Allah that you say that which you do not do.
4 Verily, Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in rows (ranks) as if they were a solid structure.

5 And (remember) when Musa (Moses) said to his people: "O my people! Why do you annoy me while you know certainly that I am the Messenger of Allah to you? So when they turned away (from the Path of Allah), Allah turned their hearts away (from the Right Path). And Allah guides not the people who are Fasiqun (the rebellious, the disobedient to Allah).

6 And (remember) when 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah unto you, confirming the Taurat [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he (Ahmad i.e. Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic."

7 And who does more wrong than the one who invents a lie against Allah, while he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers and disbelievers) folk.

8 They intend to put out the Light of Allah (i.e. the Religion of Islam, this Qur'an, and the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) with their mouths. But Allah will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it).
9 [b]He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islamic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) hate (it).[/b]

10 O you who believe! Shall I guide you to a trade that will save you from a painful torment?

11 That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives: that will be better for you, if you but know!

12 (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwellings in 'Adn (Eden) Paradise; that is indeed the great success.

13 And also (He will give you) another (blessing) which you love, - help from Allah (against your enemies) and a near victory. And give glad tidings (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) to the believers.

14 O you who believe! Be you helpers (in the Cause) of Allah as said 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), to the Hawariyyun (the disciples): "Who are my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?" The Hawariyyun (the disciples) said: "We are Allah's helpers" (i.e. we will strive in His Cause!). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the victorious (uppermost).

Habit,
Where does it say (above) in verse 14 (or any verse) that Allah makes Christians believe?

[York]

http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/08/2 ... deceivers/

Habit,
Do you concur that your God of the Bible as you call him is the Best of Deceivers? If He is the Best and Allah is the Best, then it proceeds from sound logic that :

GOD OF THE BIBLE = ALLAH OF THE QUR'AN!

[bluesclues]

The conscience is not the spirit of God. Our mind and conscience is renewed into spiritual understanding when we accept the messiah and the spirit of truth and thus becomes a godly instrument of correction.

I tell ppl, it is easier to convince a mad man that he is sane than he is mad / psychotic.

Those instruments dont seem to be working to guide the christian to doing good deeds, only "you can do wrong, just make sure to feel bad so you will be forgiven, as jesus already died for your sins, you are now under grace. You have a get out of hell free card! Halleluyah, praise d lord!!"

read carefully.

everyone can do wrong and does(sins)
the conscience tells us when we do wrong and we can either heed it or disregard it. if we do wrong and feel bad and REPENT the action. as i said, ASPIRE NOT TO DOI IT AGAIN. or even better yet, NOT DO IT WHEN WE RECEVE THE WARNING and turn back from our intention. this is the equivalent of Jihad. the struggle against temptation to sin. he who does not struggle with sin to overcome it is not seeking to please Allah. and it is the same for christians.

so no! a christian cannot sin how they want ,feel bad, do it again and again, feel bad, do nothing to try to overcome it, not even pray to God to help them overcome it and still get into heaven. no.

in fact God placed warnings for those he call backsliders. so if u feel you could horn your wife, go confession sunday, and horn she nex friday again before goin confession sunday again.. you deluding yourself. God aint gonna have no time with you.

dont be silly york. the bible document comes from God. do not seek fault with it like the atheists.

[Habit7]

He is the Best of Planners, not the best of deceivers.

First you say that Allah is not the best of receivers then you copy and paste a wall of text that basically says, yes Allah deceives but we euphemistically call it plotting. So if the Quran says Allah deceives, but in your view he is not the best of deceives, who is a better deceiver than Allah?

Habit,
Where does it say (above) in verse 14 (or any verse) that Allah makes Christians believe?

But We gave power to those who believed (Christians), against their enemies(Jews), and they became the ones that prevailed.

<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/08/28/bible-yahweh-best-of-deceivers</span>/

Habit,
Do you concur that your God of the Bible as you call him is the Best of Deceivers? If He is the Best and Allah is the Best, then it proceeds from sound logic that

It seems that after you spent the entire afternoon scouring the Internet this was the best you got. But allow me to give a brief rundown of Old Testament chronology. Books like Jeremiah are prophetic proclamations made right before the time of Jewish exile. A book like Kings chronicles the entire time that lead up to the exile which was a just judgement from God to the Jewish ppl who rejected God for idol. So because of that rejection the very Jeremiah writes in the book of 1 Kings 22:19-23:

Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”

So to sum it up, the ppl went astray, Satan asked the Sovereign God to lead them further astray, God allows them to be lead astray in accordance with their own will. God is not deceiving ppl against their will as is Allah of the Quran.

[bluesclues]

God is not deceiving ppl against their will as is Allah of the Quran.

quite a silly statement. who is ever deceived with their consent? the technicality is that those who deceive consent to be deceived. Thus God/Allah, one and the same, plots against and deceives plotters and deceivers in their own way. lest we forget that God issues the command thus making it the work of God whether the Devil does it for him or not. without his approval it could not be. and God is not bound by the ten commandments. He is God. when he deceives it is righteous deception, in perfect balance. each to what they deserve, and they shall have their reward(sarcasm) in full.

[Habit7]

3. Praying to someone is called worship. If that person is dead, it is no different than praying to a stone or wooden idol for the same help or intercession or whatever you may wish to call it. God is not deaf or deficient in any way that He would need someone to go thru like FIFA and Jack Warner...Can someone dead, like your ancestors, hear and benefit you in any way? They are more in need of you to pray for them than vice versa. This is what satan has done to christianity, turned everything upside down.

I really didn't want to entangle myself with yours and Slarti's folly but I couldn't help but see this and think of when I asked another friendly Muslim about this.

The Hadith of the Blind Man

“Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight"

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) added, “And if there is some need, do the same.”

Like when the jews asked Moses to talk to GOD of the Old Testament.

Which verse did you get this?

What makes Muhammad's intercession exceed the average Joe Muslim's accountability?
Is Muhammad of greater significance?
How is this different than the hope of Roman Catholics for Mary and saints to intercede for them?

I don't want to put too much on the table so you can disregard this if you want to.

[Slartibartfast]

1. The Angel Gabriel was made a part of the Trinity called the Holy Spirit.

2. 3 Persons = 3 Gods, plain and simple. Keep fooling yourselves to believe otherwise.

3. Praying to someone is called worship. If that person is dead, it is no different than praying to a stone or wooden idol for the same help or intercession or whatever you may wish to call it. God is not deaf or deficient in any way that He would need someone to go thru like FIFA and Jack Warner...Can someone dead, like your ancestors, hear and benefit you in any way? They are more in need of you to pray for them than vice versa. This is what satan has done to christianity, turned everything upside down.

Please quote for me the evidence in the corrupted (changed by man) Bible that says that you can pray to dead ppl for help.

Slarti,
You are very unsure of that which you speak, but claiming with certainty that i am being dishonest and lying. Please be more specific. You better pray to Habit now, while he is still alive, to help you understand better the concepts of ONENESS OF GOD and WORSHIPPING OTHER BESIDES GOD. The alternative is to look to Islam for the correct explanation as GOD has informed in the Qur'an (His Words) and to His messenger (Muhammad).

Sigh. Can't believe I wasting my time on this yes. But anyway here goes. Just keep in mind that personally I think it's all bullsh!t. I'm just going on what I know the beliefs to be.

1. The Angel Gabriel was made a part of the Trinity called the Holy Spirit.

2. 3 Persons = 3 Gods, plain and simple. Keep fooling yourselves to believe otherwise.

Like I said, Angel isn't his first name. Father/Son/Holy Ghost make up the trinity. The Trinity makes up the one God. Logically I agree that 3 persons = 3 Gods but a quick read of the bible and you would see that reason is not mandatory. Again, I don't believe any of this either way.

Now about the saints. There is no requirement to pray through the saints. Being a saint is a privilege to Christians. If you slaved hard or your master wouldn't you like a promotion with a little more responsibility to show that you are worth more than everyone else. Think of it like that. They dedicated their life to serving God and are honoured by being able to continue serving him in the afterlife.

Lasty, prayer =/= worship. Prayer is nothing more than a long distance phone call with and imaginary being on the other end. Whether that imaginary being is God or you dead grandmother (RIP Bubby) is up to you.

From Google
Worhsip
verb
1.
show reverence and adoration for (a deity)

Prayer is a conversation. Conversations don't need to show reverence and adoration. i.e. prayer =/= worship. Some people pray to dead relatives because they enjoyed talking to that person in life and find it comforting to be able to talk to them after they have passed on.

Also,
1. Who said anything about praying to dead people for help?
2. Good luck getting Christians to shoulder the burden of proof for anything.

This is the last I will say on this. Habit could pick it up from here or correct me where I was wrong if he wants. If you still don't understand then I'm afraid your ignorance outweighs my patience.

[metalgear2095]

Why is the Muslim book so full of errors if it's basically a version two Bible meant to correct earlier errors?

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[bluesclues]

Why is the Muslim book so full of errors if it's basically a version two Bible meant to correct earlier errors?

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the bible has no errors, omissions perhaps but not errors. the Quran has inclusions that were not included in the bible. more details to the story. basically, Christians has documents that islam doesnt have, and islam has documents that christianity doesnt have.

and no its not version 2 of the bible in any way. easier to say a different side of the same coin. it doesnt correct any errors in christianity either. better to say it is meant to correct errors... period. to ensure that man does not lose his way in the path to God and reduce to Godlessness. it highlights all the actions that led to the destruction of the jews and the authorization from God for invasion and destruction. as muhammad's highest concern for his people not to fall to the same fate in future.

there are things that muhammad did not understand about Christian doctrine and this led him to speak strongly against the practices. however, he later learned and recanted those, but the words were already in the Quran.

as ive always said. muslims always defend their religion's age, stating that islam existed before muhammad and goes as far back as ancient time. to which i agree. but when i ask them, what Quran did they use before the Muhammadian version they now use, im usually met with silence or a change of topic. lol

in short.. again. if u skip over or exclude everything that comes from the mouth of muhammad in the Quran, you are left with pretty much pure christian doctrine. Allah also warns the Arabs/muslims about disputing whether Jesus was his Son of virgin birth etc in the very Quran. yet still they argue amongst themselves.

all are guilty, christian and muslim of taking instruction from priest and imam, but never seeking to decipher for themselves with the aid of the Holy Spirit. this is a foremost instruction. yet all ignore it and seek someone to instruct them. and it is also written in both documents, that if your teachers are corrupted then their interpretations and teachings will also be corrupted. if a priest be 10% corrupt he receives 90% truth and 10% deception in his interpretation. if he is 40% corrupt, 60% truth and 40% deception and so on. this is why the Jewish prophets made great error in their prophecies. they had corrupted themselves. the priest entered the tabernacle of God after eating pork, which he was not to partake of under the covenant at all at any time. thus presenting himself to God in deception was deceived. this is why to this day the Jews do not accept that the messiah had come. because their prophecies were tainted with falseness.. a truth they refuse to accept in vanity.

[York]

Slarti,
Please quote from the dictionary authored by God. It is His opinion that matters here about the definition of prayer.

So, dead saints and ancestors are not prayed to for help? For what again? I must have missed it.

Lastly, why do you contribute on matters in which you don't know, don't believe ...so don't understand and then have to refer to Habit? Is he your dead ancestor?

[York]

Why is the Muslim book so full of errors if it's basically a version two Bible meant to correct earlier errors?

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the bible has no errors, omissions perhaps but not errors. the Quran has inclusions that were not included in the bible. more details to the story. basically, Christians has documents that islam doesnt have, and islam has documents that christianity doesnt have. The Qur'an is THE WORD OF GOD! The Word of God has no errors, first person, God speaking. The Bible is the recollection of the events by men. Where in the Bible does it say that those records were to be recorded and collected in a book called the Bible?

and no its not version 2 of the bible in any way. easier to say a different side of the same coin. it doesnt correct any errors in christianity either. better to say it is meant to correct errors... period. to ensure that man does not lose his way in the path to God and reduce to Godlessness. it highlights all the actions that led to the destruction of the jews and the authorization from God for invasion and destruction. as muhammad's highest concern for his people not to fall to the same fate in future.The Qur'an and the Messenger corrected the wrong concepts deviated intentionally in the Bible.

there are things that muhammad did not understand about Christian doctrine and this led him to speak strongly against the practices. however, he later learned and recanted those, but the words were already in the Quran.Like what? Name them.

as ive always said. muslims always defend their religion's age, stating that islam existed before muhammad and goes as far back as ancient time. to which i agree. but when i ask them, what Quran did they use before the Muhammadian version they now use, im usually met with silence or a change of topic. lolIslam means "submission to the Will of God". So we can say that the obedient believers before were all Muslims from that perspective, as a muslim is one who submits to the Will of God.

But the RELIGION OF ISLAM brought by Muhammad and perfected by GOD came 1400+ yrs with Muhammad from Arabia.

in short.. again. if u skip over or exclude everything that comes from the mouth of muhammad in the Quran, you are left with pretty much pure christian doctrine. Allah also warns the Arabs/muslims about disputing whether Jesus was his Son of virgin birth etc in the very Quran. yet still they argue amongst themselves.Where in the Qur'an pal? It is clear in the Qur'an that Jesus is a man and NOT the Son of God. Neither was he killed or crucified! CLEAR IN THE QUR'AN.

all are guilty, christian and muslim of taking instruction from priest and imam, but never seeking to decipher for themselves with the aid of the Holy Spirit. this is a foremost instruction. yet all ignore it and seek someone to instruct them. and it is also written in both documents, that if your teachers are corrupted then their interpretations and teachings will also be corrupted. if a priest be 10% corrupt he receives 90% truth and 10% deception in his interpretation. if he is 40% corrupt, 60% truth and 40% deception and so on. this is why the Jewish prophets made great error in their prophecies. they had corrupted themselves. the priest entered the tabernacle of God after eating pork, which he was not to partake of under the covenant at all at any time. thus presenting himself to God in deception was deceived. this is why to this day the Jews do not accept that the messiah had come. because their prophecies were tainted with falseness.. a truth they refuse to accept in vanity.

No, because Jesus didn't fit the description of the Messiah in the Old Testament. Muhammad IS the promised Messiah so described.

Tell me, what were the Jews doing in Yathrib (Madinah) in the middle of the barren desert? The place where the prophet Muhammad arose and became the Leader of the State there. [b]They knew and were residing there, hoping that the Messiah would come from one of their sons!!!![/b]

[Habit7]

I can't but feel that York is one of the previous Muslims on this thread just by another name. Avoiding intelligent logical answers to questions posed to him but just repeating Islamic rhetoric without evidence.

[MG Man]

so you saying York issa tuntun?

[bluesclues]

@York

precisely. never consider that the reason y jesus didnt meet the requirements of their prophets was because their prophets were corrupted to decption and God deceived them?

have u read ur quran? because u dont sound so. u sound like copy paste googler.

[MG Man]

how de profit know it was god speakin to him and not de debbil?

[Habit7]

how de profit know it was god speakin to him and not de debbil?

the devil did speak to him, its called the Satanic Verses.

[MG Man]

same devil whispered into the ears of dem lost souls who compiled that bible thingy...we starting to see a pattern here

[bluefete]

Also, just to get a bit ahead of you. Christians also don't worship Mary or any of the Saints. Some may pray to them to intercede on their behalf (i.e. carry the message) in hopes that God will take it more seriously coming from someone that really matters. Ok I'm not sure on the why but Christianity teaches you to pray to and worship God only. Mary and some saints are prayed through not to.

Really??? Really???

So when you pray to a dead saint, is that not worshipping them? When you pray to God, is that not worshipping him? When you pray to Mary, is that not worshipping her?

[Slartibartfast]

Firstly... I don't pray

Secondly, I tackled all that if my subsequent post.

Thirdly.... Yorks ignorance is clearly superior.

[York]

@York

precisely. never consider that the reason y jesus didnt meet the requirements of their prophets was because their prophets were corrupted to decption and God deceived them?

have u read ur quran? because u dont sound so. u sound like copy paste googler.

Unlike Christians, Muslims hold that the prophets were the best of humanity. Some made mistakes but repented. When God accepts repentance they are no longer held blameworthy for the sins they committed.

How could people of religion put down the prophets of God and worship their ancestors?

The 4th and 5th verses of the entire Qur'an is a prayer, "4 Thee alone do we worship 5 and thee alone do we ask for help." After this, what's the need to ask of dead ancestors?

Oh, sorry I am the one who evades questions and logical intelligent answers...i may even make a habit of doing so!