The Religion Discussion

[bluesclues]

But the ancients of the Persian empire observed nature and came up with the concept of God called Ahura Mazda. Hence came about Zoroastrianism. Are these ancients right?

The ancient Aryans through their own work and observation came up with the precursor to modern Hinduism by documenting their knowledge in the four Vedas.

Both of the above examples happened at least 2,000 years BC. Are these ancients wrong or right?

yep. ill have to brush up a lil on my zoroastrianism but i already verified it before. symbolically, all religions address the same thing from a different perspective. so yes, theyre all right. the thing is each contains a flaw and so is not perfect. the flaw would be in the limits of thinking capacity of that people. but another people dont have a limit in that area and that flaw is plugged. but their flaw is somewhere else.

[Dizzy28]

I liking your argument about flaws in all religions however it contradicts the hardcores in here

[Habit7]

I don't know if you but Christianity didn't start 2mins after the Resurrection. It started 2mins after God pronounced the curse on Adam and Eve.

[MG Man]

they really pissed him off din they :-/
so much for love n such.....

[Dizzy28]

I don't know if you but Christianity didn't start 2mins after the Resurrection. It started 2mins after God pronounced the curse on Adam and Eve.

Is Christianity without flaw?

[Habit7]

Christianity is [b] without flaw [\b].

[ruffneck_12]

Satan.

[MG Man]

Prince of Darkness

[Slartibartfast]

I don't know if you but Christianity didn't start 2mins after the Resurrection. It started 2mins after God pronounced the curse on Adam and Eve.

How did Christianity start before Christ was born? Also, why doesn't anyone talk about Joseph Christ or Mary Christ (the original Christians)

[bluesclues]

I liking your argument about flaws in all religions however it contradicts the hardcores in here

they can delude themselves. we live in an imperfect world. thus everything is flawed because flaws is an aspect of creation. some will argue that even though they can be considered flaws, the flaws is what make it perfect.. or at least unique. a matter of perspective. anything that is not of pure spirit or of Heaven is flawed philosophically speaking.

flaws the way i see it is what links every new link in the chain of existence together.. because the flaw in this link or missing piece, is contained in another whole link, which is missing a piece that can be found in another link etc etc. thats the whole without beginning and without end thing because no matter where u start in the chain, u seem to keep going around in circles for infinity, growing towards completeness with each new revolution.

[bluesclues]

I don't know if you but Christianity didn't start 2mins after the Resurrection. It started 2mins after God pronounced the curse on Adam and Eve.

well considering it can be argued that God would know all that would happen and lead up to him sending his son to show us the way to achieve eternal life and oneness with God. then yes it can be said that from the get go, still, unknowing to adam and eve, that they and all the prophets are christians.

but Christianity as a religion would have had its tmajor beginnings AFTER abraham was commanded to spare his son and God acknowledged the willingness to sacrifice him. because of that willingness God promised the earth a saviour who would be his son sent to be sacrificed by the barbaric ones. with actual christianity taking full form in the book of the life of Christ.

everything is a matter of perspective. some say it is without flaws, because the flaws are what make it perfect and it is perfect with its apparent flaws because that is exactly how God intended it to be.. flawed.

[bluefete]

Is God flawed?

[bluesclues]

Is God flawed?

no this realm of reality is the only one that contains flaws. all the heavens and God himself has no flaw. only existence in this world consists of opposing perspective. according to the books, God created this universe intentionally this way and we supposed to aspire to get into the heavenly realms where there are many worlds and all is without flaw. spiritual existence is perfection.

another way to explain it is in the symbolism of the Holy Trinity. which is just a conceptual demonstration used for explaining where we are in the scheme of existence..

this reality is the son. the son carries the attributes of both the mother and the father. so he is part mother and part father, but neither his mother or his father as they are two seperate identities. in this case, symbolically, the mother and father would be nothingness(the dark void) and intelligence/life merging together to form this reality. so we are part dead, part alive. the dead part is the flesh as its just like a stone without the life/consciousness of the living energy or soul. u can also say, part male and part female. or part good and part evil. part purity and part sin, part finite, and part infinite etc. this is known as the duality of existence. opposites merge to give birth to something new. a son. so now it should be clear to see what religious philosophy is about...

if we are in an existence that is part finite and part infinite, then there must be a method for us to grow heavier towards the infinite. they match up evil-doing with moving closer to the finite and inanimate(death). while doing good is matched to the infinite because logically.. if God imparts to us life then he must be benevolent as malevolence would match up with taking life. so basically the belief is that we earn favour with God and grow towards the infinite by doing good. good being contributing to unity and peace through love. so once you achieve infinite status, you're perfect and God is already infinite. meaning he is beyond the laws which govern this universe having created it and many much more magnificent ones.

[bluesclues]

another example..

we see how mathematics((logical processes) govern certain aspects of reality and nature's operations and call the study 'physics'. which consist of astronomical calculations in many cases. but a basketballer just shoots a ball with a quick calculated estimate.. on the move etc. imagine how many calculation a robot has to be programmed to do to get a shot off. to work it out on paper would take at least hrs, days or more depending. but our brains do it in a split second. ask us to show our calculation method and it would look nothing like a mathematical equation.

that is an example of a part of us that exists and operates outside the laws of physics. our consciousness merged with the unconscious matter that makes up our body. matter can be counted and assessed logically with numbers. but consciousness doesnt have a definite number. and arrives at the correct answer via illogical means. it rules logic as it is responsible for doing all programming of matter. so logic is a slave to consciousness. so we shouldnt make our consciousness a slave to logic. 'logic' in this case meaning all the things on the malevolent side of existence.. inanimate, unconscious(non-conscious), evil, finite, limited, restricted or opressed, enslaved, controlled or manipulated.

while consciousness is infinite, freedom, unrestricted, benevolent, creative, emotion. another word for freedom is sometimes used.. chaos. suggesting.. an illogical process as all of the attributes of consciousness itself operate in illogical ways where such behaviour is similarly found in the quantum realms of observation. apparent chaos producing order.

[Slartibartfast]

You know that's just projectile motion and it's a topic in form 6 physics right? So 18 year olds can solve that question in 5-10 minutes. Also, once a robot it programmed to do it, it will make the same exact shot and get it in perfrctly every...single...time. look up the video of a robot playing Flappy Bird to see a simple example of how robots can outperform humans.

Also, see below for an interesting video on the topic of machines doing man's jobs.

phpBB [video]

[Habit7]

I don't know if you but Christianity didn't start 2mins after the Resurrection. It started 2mins after God pronounced the curse on Adam and Eve.

How did Christianity start before Christ was born? Also, why doesn't anyone talk about Joseph Christ or Mary Christ (the original Christians)

Adam and Eve sinned and through Adam as our federal head we inherited a sin nature. In addition, while God pronounced a curse on the man and woman, God gave them what we understand as the Proto Evangelion (First Gospel).
Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring (seed) and her offspring (seed);
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”

In Hebrew culture offspring was the seed of the man, not the woman. So the seed of the woman is fulfilled in Jesus' virgin birth, while the seed of the serpent is basically anyone who doesn't obey God (John 8:44). So the serpent's seed bruised Jesus' heal in crucifying Him, but Jesus crushes the serpent's head in resurrection demonstrating victory over the grave (Hosea 13:14, 1 Corinthians 15:55). So even from the Old Testament, the Jews looked forward to a Messiah to come, while in the New Testament the Christians look back at the Messiah who came. All that to say in response to Dizzy's post that proposed some timeline where there wasn't any Judeo-Christian belief and there are others that preceded it, I disagree. Judaism which started at Genesis with Adam and Eve points to Jesus while Christianity which started after the resurrection started points back to Jesus. Jesus' work of forgiveness of sin and imputation of righteousness is effective to those who preceded Him and to those who succeeded Him.

BTW Jesus' last name was not Christ. Christ means the Anointed One: Jesus the Anointed One. Thus Mary and Joseph's last name was not Christ. In those days He would either be titled 'son of Joseph' or 'of Nazareth.'

[Slartibartfast]

While we are on the topic. Who did Adam and Eve's children get married to?

Btw that last question was just a joke. But good explanation. I know a lot of people don't know where the word Christ came from (the same people that think Ghandi's first name is Mahatma)

[Tar Baby]

Removed by Moderator

[RBphoto]

I was born and raised in the catholic church for the first 20 years of my life. My parent were both very strong in their faith and I was just as strong in mine until I started questioning it (mass every weekend and living out my faith every weekday like a proper catholic should). Then my faith fell apart and I realised I was a better person without it (more tolerant and generally more happy and fulfilled on a regular basis).

I tried writing out the story behind it, but that would be a few pages long.

Long story short, I lost my faith when I started studying it and expecting it to make sense. Some have said my faith was weak to begin with because I was trying to "see" in order to believe.

This was similar to my experience. I remember the first time I said it out loud after battling with it for a few years. Reading books like Gods Debris and God Delusion, religion no longer made sense to me. It all came together when I accepted that I was an atheist. There was this great sense of loneliness that overcame me at that point; that I no longer had this omnipotent being protecting me and all that, and you know what, I was glad. I felt it was better to accept what I felt what was real than constantly in turmoil trying to adhere to the very rickety framework that is religion.

I had a junior science Encyclopedia when I was young. When people said all sorts of stuff like "I am praying for rain" I would say stuff like "well we have to pray for evaporation first, then for the wind to transport the cloud, then for condensation..etc" It was extremely cute at 6. By 10, I was questioning authority, by 13 I was weird/ different. Today, grown azz people think I worship the devil. Funny thing is I don't even believe that the devil exist.

[Dizzy28]

While we are on the topic. Who did Adam and Eve's children get married to?

Btw that last question was just a joke. But good explanation. I know a lot of people don't know where the word Christ came from (the same people that think Ghandi's first name is Mahatma)

Hate to be a nitpicker but Mohandas's last name is actually spelt Gandhi and not Ghandi.

[Habit7]

While we are on the topic. Who did Adam and Eve's children get married to?

I answered that for you on pg 547

It seems that with most of you and the other atheists I meet is that you all discover the obvious inconsistencies in the religions that you belong to. This only proves that the gods of your religion are false. However once burnt by this knighted religion it is supplanted by enlightened religion which tends to be science. While true empirical science only shows observations and repeatable occurrences, these explanations are extrapolated to answer questions that religion attempts to answer. So just like how some could feel justified by how his acquired worldview could account for the hydrological cycle, it fails to realise and that a designed and functional cycle doesn't happen by chance. That is an even greater hope than prayer.

[Altec55]

I was born and raised in the catholic church for the first 20 years of my life. My parent were both very strong in their faith and I was just as strong in mine until I started questioning it (mass every weekend and living out my faith every weekday like a proper catholic should). Then my faith fell apart and I realised I was a better person without it (more tolerant and generally more happy and fulfilled on a regular basis).

I tried writing out the story behind it, but that would be a few pages long.

Long story short, I lost my faith when I started studying it and expecting it to make sense. Some have said my faith was weak to begin with because I was trying to "see" in order to believe.

This was similar to my experience. I remember the first time I said it out loud after battling with it for a few years. Reading books like Gods Debris and God Delusion, religion no longer made sense to me. It all came together when I accepted that I was an atheist. There was this great sense of loneliness that overcame me at that point; that I no longer had this omnipotent being protecting me and all that, and you know what, I was glad. I felt it was better to accept what I felt what was real than constantly in turmoil trying to adhere to the very rickety framework that is religion.

Wow that is amazing. I also know what it is like to be totally alone and not know God. It was the absolute worst feeling in the world. After I found Jesus, I can say for sure i'll never go back to being alone. I wouldn't choose that for anything.

[Slartibartfast]

Hate to be a nitpicker but Mohandas's last name is actually spelt Gandhi and not Ghandi.

Damnit! I knew the "h" came after a consonant so I took a chance, lol. Does that means the stress is on the second syllable and not the first?

Wow that is amazing. I also know what it is like to be totally alone and not know God. It was the absolute worst feeling in the world. After I found Jesus, I can say for sure i'll never go back to being alone. I wouldn't choose that for anything.

I went through a lot of the same emotions as Tar Baby. Great loneliness, mixed in with some anger and a sense of betrayal that you devoted so much time and effort to something that doesn't exist. But once you get through that, it's amazing. You see life for the temporary state that it is. Instead of getting to know God at the expense of yourself, you get to know yourself and become free to connect with others in many more ways. The feeling of guilt for stupid things disappear, which by itself is a great burden to be lifted.

And in the end, the lonliness disappears as you can enjoy being alone because you know who you are and you know when you are alone, you can be yourself with nobody looking.

I will never go back to any faith because the concept of God just does not make sense and it seems more like God was created in man's image over the past thousands of years. There is also no practical point to believing in God. It's just an unnecessary burden. It doesn't make things any better (because scriptures don't have to be followed as I discussed earlier) and it does not advance our society in any way.

Belief in God has held us back a lot more than it pushed us forward.

[Altec55]

I believe the complete opposite Slarti. I was always the "smart" one, being able to rationalize everything etc, seeing life as just something we're passing through.

Then I found God and couldn't understand how I was living without knowing Him. I know God now as God, and not a concept. Belief in God is the only thing than has kept humanity moving forward. The unbelief in God and/or failure to follow His Word is what is keeping us back.

[RBphoto]

I believe the complete opposite Slarti. I was always the "smart" one, being able to rationalize everything etc, seeing life as just something we're passing through.

Then I found God and couldn't understand how I was living without knowing Him. I know God now as God, and not a concept. Belief in God is the only thing than has kept humanity moving forward. The unbelief in God and/or failure to follow His Word is what is keeping us back.

Well, some people need an emotional crutch and some don't. If it gets you through life, helps you to get out of bed every morning, I say more power to you. I don't grudge anyone holding their beliefs. I do find anyone using that belief to say that some imaginary fiend will torment me for life, that I am immoral for my disbelief or that they are better than me for their belief or patronizing to me, to be utter idiots for judging me for having a different opinion to their world view when mine ids based on fact and theirs is on fiction.

[RBphoto]

Question to theist... does god see you masturbate, and do you think it is wrong to do it in the plain view of the lord?

[Habit7]

[RBphoto]

^^^Logic and morals are subjective?

[Habit7]

Yea, according to Slartibartfast

[bluesclues]

You know that's just projectile motion and it's a topic in form 6 physics right? So 18 year olds can solve that question in 5-10 minutes. Also, once a robot it programmed to do it, it will make the same exact shot and get it in perfrctly every...single...time. look up the video of a robot playing Flappy Bird to see a simple example of how robots can outperform humans.

Also, see below for an interesting video on the topic of machines doing man's jobs.

phpBB [video]

what you're talking about is not the same. why do you force me to be absolutely detailed? in basketball a player doesnt make one shot from one height or distance standing upright. a basketballer also doesnt have any distance measuring lasers. a basketballer can make the shot while falling down or off balance in millions of different postures, spin it off the backboard left or right etc. secondly, where does the programming come from for the basketballer to make each of 1 million different type of shots. each requiring a different calculation and taking into consideration the different factors as they arise on the fly.. like wind force and direction. a sudden knock on the hand to throw off the shot just before it is launch, still quickly adjusted for in a split-split-second to make the shot. a robot just doesnt compare. it would require pages and pages of code, or otherwise, logical instruction and calculation. and also, we have the ability to score the ball without looking at the ring etc.

what you are talking about is one calculation for one shot from one distance at one specified height and in most cases ignoring wind velocity and direction which we dont take exact figures for as humans. we dont use any numbers, just manipulation of force and energy to our estimate. what happens if in mid step the robot is off balance and twists an ankle and the whole body goes down but still attempts to make the shot etc.

the robot will function on what it is programmed to do and no more. give it a new situation and the only way for it to learn is for u to turn it off, hook it up to the programming bench and upload new code. the same cannot be said for humans. we can program ourselves because we posses our own innate intelligence.. consciousness.. which a robot doesnt have.