The Religion Discussion

[meccalli]

Yep, sure do, sin is pleasurable, you think i'm above temptation...hardly, but its a choice.

[Slartibartfast]

patience
skeuh
skeuE
G4632
n_ Acc Pl n
INSTRUMENTS
vessels
orghs
orgEs
G3709
n_ Gen Sg f
OF-INDIGNATION
kathrtismena
katErtismena
G2675
vp Perf Pas Acc Pl n
having-been-adapted
eis
eis
G1519
Prep
INTO
apwleian
apOleian
G684
n_ Acc Sg f
destruction
Well, if you insist, that's the greek. I don't see anything that suggests what you are.

I don't see anything that suggests anything else really. Care to elaborate/translate? What do you mean by
"eis
G1519
Prep
INTO"

Did I pronounce that properly?

[meccalli]

http://www.biblefood.com/eis.html

Btw, the story of John is so sad to me. A great musician that almost made his life turn around till yoko pulled him into new age before he was killed.

[Slartibartfast]

Mecalli I think you getting sidetracked. I not arguing about Greek. I was talking about the passage from the bible in Romans Chapter 9 that said

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory"

That statement is seems very clear cut to me. If you want to quote the original greek, that's all well and fine but I don't speak Greek so please translate it into English below so that I can reply.

[MG Man]

http://www.biblefood.com/eis.html

Btw, the story of John is so sad to me. A great musician that almost made his life turn around till yoko pulled him into new age before he was killed.

Dunno why ppl does beatup over yoko ono aka skreeming talentless weirdo. She made John happy. What more does anyone need ( other than a lost weekend with May Pang)

[meccalli]

uhh, i did,

But why did God put them there? Because they are his "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, i

INSTRUMENTS OF-INDIGNATION having-been-adapted INTO destruction
copypasta

[Slartibartfast]

So what is the passage supposed to read.

I'm still not seeing how that changes anything

Break it down for me like I break down my science stuff

[meccalli]

Well i already told you what the scripture meant,
If you can't understand a difference in
vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and
INSTRUMENTS OF-INDIGNATION having-been-adapted INTO destruction
along with your eisegesis and insinuation that God somehow prepared people for destruction, doesn't show any evidence of that seeing that it is written in the passive voice, given the context and the entire message of the gospel. I can't say anymore.
Just for contrast further on in ,'vessels of mercy which He had prepared to glory', you see the active verb being used here showing God as the subject and the protagonist.

[Slartibartfast]

Which bible version are you using? And just for my sake can you type out what the total passage should read?

Also your punctuation kind of messing up how I reading your comment. Just trying to get this thing right. You don't have to say anymore. Just clarify the stuff for me so I can say I truly understand it.

[meccalli]

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/rom9.pdf

If you intend the understand the entire passage, read from 8 all the way to 11, Paul builds up a number of topics to explain to israel their seemingly short of the stick that God has allowed in order to bring the gentiles into his plan.

[Habit7]

I agree with you that not everyone on the earth deserves bliss.

So then why are you angry that God exercises the sovereign choice to do whatever He wants with His creation? If this were not so then He won't be God.

If in typing to a response to me you chose to erase a line, can those letters demand the right to be posted? No, these are your creations to serve your will.

But we are all rebels to God seeking after our own will. We all have a conscience to know that we have done wrong. God in his righteousness can destroy and punish us all as rebels and it would be very just. But in His mercy He sent His Son to live the perfect life we fail to live and bore the punishment we deserve in Hell on the cross. This is the message of the Gospel. You are responsible for your actions not God. We all deserve His just punishment. But if one would repent of their sins and turn to Christ as their righteousness, not their good works, we can be vessels of God's grace and not His wrath.

[Slartibartfast]

can't access that page.

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You are not allowed to access this page. Possible problems:
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Incorrect file or folder permissions

Still doesn't explain away the fact that "the potter may create some vessels for dishonor" bit.

Really thought I was going to get a nice long explanation like I give to you guys in the science discussions. Oh well, I guess this is just one of those things you need to have faith for and hope that you were not created to be sent to hell so that other may fall into his plan and get to live in eternal glory.

[meccalli]

Its working fine, all it is - just a greek translation, not hard to google..
As for your understanding of Paul, I guess peter saw all of it already.
2_peter 3 16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and untaught people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

[aks]

If white people came back and whipped us for another 300years i wonder what would we talk about then

[Slartibartfast]

...capitalism?

All hail the great Milton Friedman <----- just for the record he was a total @$$

[nareshseep]

[nareshseep]

I agree with you that not everyone on the earth deserves bliss.

So then why are you angry that God exercises the sovereign choice to do whatever He wants with His creation? If this were not so then He won't be God.

If in typing to a response to me you chose to erase a line, can those letters demand the right to be posted? No, these are your creations to serve your will.

But we are all rebels to God seeking after our own will. We all have a conscience to know that we have done wrong. God in his righteousness can destroy and punish us all as rebels and it would be very just. But in His mercy He sent His Son to live the perfect life we fail to live and bore the punishment we deserve in Hell on the cross. This is the message of the Gospel. You are responsible for your actions not God. We all deserve His just punishment. But if one would sßs GS state seqd of their sins and turn to Christ as their righteousness, not their good works, we can be vessels of God's grace and not His wrath.

[nareshseep]

I agree with you that not everyone on the earth deserves bliss.

So then why are you angry that God exercises the sovereign choice to do whatever He wants with His creation? If this were not so then He won't be God.

If in typing to a response to me you chose to erase a line, can those letters demand the right to be posted? No, these are your creations to serve your will.

But we are all rebels to God seeking after our own will. We all have a conscience to know that we have done wrong. God in his righteousness can destroy and punish us all as rebels and it would be very just. But in His mercy He sent His Son to live the perfect life we fail to live and bore the punishment we deserve in Hell on the cross. This is the message of the Gospel. You are responsible for your actions not God. We all deserve His just punishment. But if one would sßs GS state seqd of their sins and turn to Christ as their righteousness, not their good works, we can be vessels of God's grace and not Hisseqdth.

[nareshseep]

I agree with you that not everyone on the earth deserves bliss.

So then why are you angry that God exercises the sovereign choice to do whatever He wants with His creation? If this were not so then He won't be God.

If in typing to a response to me you chose to erase a line, can those letters demand the right to be posted? No, these are your creations to serve your will.

But we are all rebels to God seeking after our own will. We all have a conscience to know that we have done wrong. God in his righteousness can destroy and punish us all as rebels and it would be very just. But in His mercy He sent His Son to live the perfect life we fail to live and bore the punishment we deserve in Hell on the cross. This is the message of the Gospel. You are responsible for your actions not God. We all deserve His just punishment. But if one would sßs GS state seqd of their sins and turn to Christ as their righteousness, not their good works, we can be vessels of God's grace and not His wrath.

[nareshseep]

Somebody clean up them 3 posts above...phone was acting crazy...damn god and his tricks again

[Habit7]

Man is responsible for the murder, but from a divine sovereignty perspective Jesus lay down His own life.

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.


Facebook memes might be pithy, not factual.
Also stop being an inconsistent atheist and using absolute Christian morality like murder. If there is no God and no moral giver, murder is arbitrary.

[DJ]

[Habit7]

...but nothing becoming an organised something is.

[DJ]

So if both are wrong, but one can partially explain origin, without referring to an imaginery being, who would you believe?

[DJ]

[Slartibartfast]

If there is no God and no moral giver, murder is arbitrary.

Thank goodness we are our own moral givers then.

[Habit7]

So if both are wrong, but one can partially explain origin, without referring to an imaginery being, who would you believe?

If both are wrong, it doesn't matter what you or I believe, it is still wrong.

The conclusion the existence of any creator being is a logic that spans the entire of the existence of man, nothing has refuted it since. It was the logic of the existence of the creator god that spurred modern science, it the ideology of secular humanism that sits atop that mountain of logical ppl which went before it and calls it illogical.

This is why atheism is unworkable, because there is no moral basis for anything. An atheist can kill millions in the case of Mao and Pol Pot and see no wrong. Only in a worldview with a moral law giver, with absolute morality, as the case in Christianity can we call that sin and oppose it. So when Kim Jong Un is starving his ppl to feed the elites don't see that as sin, see it as...different.

If there is no God and no moral giver, murder is arbitrary.

Thank goodness we are our own moral givers then.

that didn't work out well for Nazi Germany

[Slartibartfast]

If both are wrong, it doesn't matter what you or I believe, it is still wrong.

I agree with this.

The conclusion the existence of any creator being is a logic that spans the entire of the existence of man, nothing has refuted it since.

See me "religion bandwagon" post above. The scriptures and teachings were refuted. Anytime it is refuted, the evidence it either ignored or the interpretation changed. Right now science can't refute a creator anymore than it can refute multiple universes or my theory that I created the earth (and won awards for Norway... that were stolen). Just because something has not been refuted does not make it right. This includes the big bang theory and that of evolution as well.

It was the logic of the existence of the creator god that spurred modern science, it the ideology of secular humanism that sits atop that mountain of logical ppl which went before it and calls it illogical.

this argument again. Too much wrong with this and I'm not feeling to write another essay.

This is why atheism is unworkable, because there is no moral basis for anything. An atheist can kill millions in the case of Mao and Pol Pot and see no wrong. Only in a worldview with a moral law giver, with absolute morality, as the case in Christianity can we call that sin and oppose it. So when Kim Jong Un is starving his ppl to feed the elites don't see that as sin, see it as...different.

This is just flat out wrong.
Taken from wikipedia (just for quick reference so you can do your own research to verify)

"High religious involvement, high importance of religion in one's life, membership in an organized religion, and orthodox religious beliefs are believed to be associated with less criminality.However, studies have shown that more secular nations have lower rates of violent crimes such as murder."

If there is no God and no moral giver, murder is arbitrary.

Thank goodness we are our own moral givers then.

that didn't work out well for Nazi Germany

Yeah and a Pope never sanctioned any murders either right? This is anecdotal and can go both ways. There are good and bad people independent of religious belief.

[Habit7]

The last 2 pages you were expressing your ignorance about the Scriptures, now you saying they are refuted? You can't articulate ideas from Krauss' book but between today and yesterday you read enough of the Bible to know what has been refuted?

The fact that a defined morality exists doesn't make a country less violent. The only way we can even criticize what is violent is with a moral standard, atheism doesn't offer that.

I don't know if you can tell but I am Protestant, in the past Popes persecuted those who shared my view. So whether it the Popes, Apostle Paul, Stalin or Hitler murder is wrong. If we get to define our morality then under Nazi Germany killing Jews, Gypsies, Blacks, homosexuals and the lame is defined right in pursuit of becoming the superman, the most evolved form of Homo sapiens.

[Slartibartfast]

Only need to read the first page of the Bible to see what was refuted. If stuff on the first page is wrong then the bible can't be 100% correct like a lot of people say it is. I'm still ignorant to a lot of he middle parts of the bible, but I read the spoilers at the end.

Lol @ the Nazi thing. You are correct when you say atheism by itself does not offer anything on morality. That is because atheism (non-belief in God) is a response to theism (Belief in a God). Now, keep in mind that one can throw out their belief in God but still keep their ability to reason. I can empathize with being murdered enough to know that I would really not like someone to murder me. This means someone will really not like me to murder them as well. I don't know if you have ever been murdered, but it can be an extremely inconvenient occurrence. Just messes up your whole day. Now I don't like to mess up other people's days like that so I won't do it.

Now here is the tricky part. Justification and exceptions. I see it as being ok to murder someone if it is clearly (key work being clearly) for a greater good. Like if you see a guy with a bomb strapped to his chest in the middle of crowd and ready to ignite. You will think "Damn... a lot of perfectly good days are going to get messed up if he detonates... maybe it would be better to just mess up one day instead of 1000"

TL:DR Morality can come from non-theist origins... like empathy

I hope I simplified it enough for you.