The Religion Discussion

[Slartibartfast]

these guys didnt respond. contacted them 2 years ago. recently contacted institute of noetic sciences as well. same thing. no response. u see all the fakes make it very difficult to discern the true ones. so they just like me are kind of getting tired of people wasting their time and have no idea how to discern the true ones. i will continue to try to contact them in hope of a response.

but id like to share this with you. what i have read here i really cant put it any better.
http://www.theeventchronicle.com/the-ev ... ectricity/

I'm sorry, you may need to break this down for me a bit. I admit I didn't make it all the way to the end of the article. The prophecy didn't speak of anything specific but the general gist of it seemed to be that the world will get less hostile and enter into a better period overall. The thing is, his prophecy is so generalised, it can be true for any time period. But I'm sure there are books written on this already so I won't go into depth about it.

Btw if you serious about that million dollar challenge and want me to help you out, let me know. They may be more likely to respond if they know that there is a skeptic involved with easy access to the individual taking part in the challenge. Remember, they said the preliminary test takes place at the challengers home (or temple, yoga studio etc.). Basically where ever the challenger is comfortable. This means that they will need to make someone available to do the testing for you, which would cost a lot if they had to fly all over the world to everyone that wanted to take part. Who knows, if you win we could split the prize and I could be your agent

[Slartibartfast]

2.5 Why can’t I submit a religious or spiritual claim?

Because they are, for the most part, untestable. For example, you can look at a series of events – say surviving an automobile crash, surviving a plane crash, surviving a near-drowning and say “This was the hand of God,” but the point of the Challenge isn’t to give anecdotal evidence. It is to give something testable. Most religious people believe it’s impossible to test God. We’re pretty sure they’re right, though perhaps for different reasons.

But don't worry. If you can separate your body and self through meditation to a point where you are clairvoyant then that we can test. I'm sure if I fill out their application, they will respond.

[bluesclues]

these guys didnt respond. contacted them 2 years ago. recently contacted institute of noetic sciences as well. same thing. no response. u see all the fakes make it very difficult to discern the true ones. so they just like me are kind of getting tired of people wasting their time and have no idea how to discern the true ones. i will continue to try to contact them in hope of a response.

but id like to share this with you. what i have read here i really cant put it any better.
http://www.theeventchronicle.com/the-ev ... ectricity/

I'm sorry, you may need to break this down for me a bit. I admit I didn't make it all the way to the end of the article. The prophecy didn't speak of anything specific but the general gist of it seemed to be that the world will get less hostile and enter into a better period overall. The thing is, his prophecy is so generalised, it can be true for any time period. But I'm sure there are books written on this already so I won't go into depth about it.

Btw if you serious about that million dollar challenge and want me to help you out, let me know. They may be more likely to respond if they know that there is a skeptic involved with easy access to the individual taking part in the challenge. Remember, they said the preliminary test takes place at the challengers home (or temple, yoga studio etc.). Basically where ever the challenger is comfortable. This means that they will need to make someone available to do the testing for you, which would cost a lot if they had to fly all over the world to everyone that wanted to take part. Who knows, if you win we could split the prize and I could be your agent

lols at being my agent. what exactly will u test. what can you see. i did out of body with my girl on the bed reading a book and she was clueless at me watching her in that state. laying right next to her. u need scientific observational tools to see the processes as they occur inside my body. do u have those at your disposal? she did feel something once, when i pushed the envelope to do it with her laying untop of me. but the process was interrupted just as i was about to hit the threshold mark. when i stopped she woke up and asked me "what was that" and i kinda just shrugged it off lol. she isnt my girl any more for predictable reasons, and quite possible the reason why what i was about to do was interrupted strongly by fate.

im formulating an impossible seeming task for proof atm. i will practice to enter the avatar state and grow flowers around my feet. this is the sort of thing i expect from true spirituality, not parlour tricks like sai baba etc succumb to. i have meditated deeply and had lizards crawling and jumping on and all around me which was as a real life symbol of the zen state of consciousness as u see it drawn and described in books.

if it is the will of the invisible God, i will procure for those who cannot see with spiritual eyes the proof they need to bring them back to faith. i will do a thing that is unexplainable by any physics.. and do it repeatedly if necessary which it most likely will be. but atm i have some other things to see about which im already engaged in and must finish. everything will happen in it's right time and always does. the pieces come together bit by bit. so when it is the right time i will be able to provide a significantly undoubtable proof of the power of consciousness that is the soul that resides within. i will not need rand or noetics, or any of them to venerate my claims.

[Slartibartfast]

i did out of body with my girl on the bed reading a book and she was clueless at me watching her in that state.

What you seem to describe here is know as clairvoyance or sometimes referred to as ESP (extra sensory perception). Both of which I can devise simple, scientifically sound tests for. If you want to go with this, no expensive equipment will be needed and I will be able to provide everything that is needed for the testing.

For the other internal changes that you talk about, you need to be more specific. If it is truly something remarkable I could talk to one of my many friends studying Med Sci and see if they can work you into a research project so we have their instruments at your disposal.

But the internal changes must not be scientifically explicable. Also, that 10% of the brain thing is just a myth

"Though mysteries regarding brain function remain—e.g. memory, consciousness—the physiology of brain mapping suggests that most, if not all, areas of the brain have a function."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_percent_of_brain_myth

Btw, on an unrelated note, if I do become your agent you will have to refer to me as "Agent S" once I wearing a black suit.

i will not need rand or noetics, or any of them to venerate my claims.

The proof of the supernatural would not be for those that believe but rather for those that don't, like myself.

[bluesclues]

i did out of body with my girl on the bed reading a book and she was clueless at me watching her in that state.

What you seem to describe here is know as clairvoyance or sometimes referred to as ESP (extra sensory perception). Both of which I can devise simple, scientifically sound tests for. If you want to go with this, no expensive equipment will be needed and I will be able to provide everything that is needed for the testing.

For the other internal changes that you talk about, you need to be more specific. If it is truly something remarkable I could talk to one of my many friends studying Med Sci and see if they can work you into a research project so we have their instruments at your disposal.

But the internal changes must not be scientifically explicable. Also, that 10% of the brain thing is just a myth

"Though mysteries regarding brain function remain—e.g. memory, consciousness—the physiology of brain mapping suggests that most, if not all, areas of the brain have a function."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_percent_of_brain_myth

Btw, on an unrelated note, if I do become your agent you will have to refer to me as "Agent S" once I wearing a black suit.

i will not need rand or noetics, or any of them to venerate my claims.

The proof of the supernatural would not be for those that believe but rather for those that don't, like myself.

no that wasnt clairvoyance or esp, that was out of body. sometimes referred to as astral projection.

regarding the 10% brain myth, i know what u mean. but what i can do is this.. while meditating just say which region ud like me to activate on the monitors and i will make that area of my brain light up. i can make the whole thing light up, my whole head face etc. move it down through my throat and arms and the rest of my body. a very subtle force controlled by will and thought. i can do different things with it.. make it go in circles/spirals, create balls that expand and contract. but basically, before i even get started ur instruments would show strange new things as im in a constant state of samadhi. it never leaves, not even when im asleep. u can imagine even i am also curious to see what your scientific tools will see.

i will control heart rate, breathing, blood pressure and i expect, die under the microscope to a flatline on monitors. but when that happens, dont panic. it is normal. when i return to my body all operations will return to normal.

[Slartibartfast]

Even better! Ok we could focus on just the controlled heart rate and blood pressure and use that as an indication of something paranormal. As it is right now, I am unaware of any scientific theory that would be able to explain someone's control over heart rate and blood pressure. Also, I have a digital monitor that measures both.

In fact, if you could flat line just that monitor alone, I'm sure that we could make a lot of progress from there.

So, if I were to hook you up to the monitor, how long would it take you to flatline it and how long will you be able to make it stay flatlined (i.e. how long does it take for your heart to stop and how long can you stop it for)

[Slartibartfast]

Also, my good friend has a sister working for TV6 so we could get media coverage without a problem. Not to make the evening news but just as proof so you qualify for the $1mil prize.

[bluesclues]

Even better! Ok we could focus on just the controlled heart rate and blood pressure and use that as an indication of something paranormal. As it is right now, I am unaware of any scientific theory that would be able to explain someone's control over heart rate and blood pressure. Also, I have a digital monitor that measures both.

In fact, if you could flat line just that monitor alone, I'm sure that we could make a lot of progress from there.

So, if I were to hook you up to the monitor, how long would it take you to flatline it and how long will you be able to make it stay flatlined (i.e. how long does it take for your heart to stop and how long can you stop it for)

it doesnt stop.. it gets reduced to a very slow and fluid flow i believe so pulses arent detected. same for my breathing. how long i can stay in that state depends mainly on distractions and practice. the more i practice the deeper into transcendental state my body while waking also becomes and that makes me stronger or.. more lucid when i abandon my body. so it depends on my lucidity at the time, which is dependent on my level of focus during the process.

we can keep tv6 out of it for now. atm i prefer not to be in the spotlight. and let me be clear. if u are to be my 'agent'. it will not be for you to make lots of money while u proport me as some sort of circus performer. and take note that i have not agreed nor come to any agreement on financial compensation for your work with me. if money is what u seek out of this.. i will sorely disappoint you and ensure u get nothing. ;p

[bluesclues]

i will work for free, and i will perform for free. any donations will be mine all mine, and u will have to trust that i will compensate you fairly for your time as is needed and no more or less. once u have your proof i will be returning to my hermetic life of solitude and spiritual progress. as i have much more to learn and practice still.

[Slartibartfast]

If your heart rate and breathing don't stop then you can't really call that dying. But if it slows down enough there may still be a chance that it is not purely physical. How much BPM are we talking about your heart rate slowing down to. Keep in mind that 60BPM is a healthy resting heart rate and by not moving, breathing slowly and relaxing, you heart rate will naturally drop below this.

Athletes can have resting heart rates (RHR) close to 40BPM.

As for the TV6 thing. That is more for documentary evidence to make a full submission to Randi for the Million Dollar Challenge (MDC). As I said, it's a close friend of mine so all we will have to do is say don't air it, but in the case that we need proof, we will have media presence.

if u are to be my 'agent'. it will not be for you to make lots of money while u proport me as some sort of circus performer. and take note that i have not agreed nor come to any agreement on financial compensation for your work with me. if money is what u seek out of this.. i will sorely disappoint you and ensure u get nothing. ;p

Man... you killin my dream. If I'm to be your agent I still going to request everyone refer to me as agent S.

As for the circus performer and money thing, I was really just thinking about doing enough to create a full submission for the MDC because that is internationally recognised and they are unbiased so if you pass that then you will be responsible for converting thousands of non-believers into believers, including myself. And money and jokes aside, I am sure that you will agree, if what you say is true, then by converting non-believers to believers, the converts are getting a lot.

[Slartibartfast]

i will work for free, and i will perform for free. any donations will be mine all mine, and u will have to trust that i will compensate you fairly for your time as is needed and no more or less. once u have your proof i will be returning to my hermetic life of solitude and spiritual progress. as i have much more to learn and practice still.

This will be more for my academic curiosity that for money. If I make enough to cover lunch and gas money then I already happy. I have a job so I don't need the extra cash and I don't expect any. If we are to do this it will be in a place and at a time that we are both comfortable and willing. I will want us to approach this with a mutual respect for eachother and and understanding that we are both on our own journeys to seek the truth.

I was thinking more of a small demonstration than a performance. Nothing public and attention whoring. Like I said before, this is more about curiosity and search for the truth. Like if you work in a Yoga studio and I just sit in for the class and maybe we sit and talk for a bit after while I run the monitors on you. That first time wouldn't have any media or cameras present other than maybe a camera phone and that would only be with your permission. And if you want the video deleted before I leave then I will follow your request.

[bluesclues]

lol. ok fine you can give urself whatever title u like. documentation is also fine. regarding convincing me that this will convert thousands of non-believer, perhaps. but it has been done before and there are still non-believers. so i must do something much more significant. utterly and absolutely flaunt and defy the laws of physics under peer review. im not at the level to do that proficiently on command yet. so im still studying and practicing to perform the siddhis, which i believe as they are documented are also misleading. as usual i have to figure it out on my own with the guidance of my intuition. whilst living every day life with it's demands and distractions from spiritual pursuits.

so for now, i will agree to be documented while performing meditation under a medical/scientific microscope, and demonstrating the various abilities that i have come to discover from the gifts it provides.

[bluesclues]

i will work for free, and i will perform for free. any donations will be mine all mine, and u will have to trust that i will compensate you fairly for your time as is needed and no more or less. once u have your proof i will be returning to my hermetic life of solitude and spiritual progress. as i have much more to learn and practice still.

This will be more for my academic curiosity that for money. If I make enough to cover lunch and gas money then I already happy. I have a job so I don't need the extra cash and I don't expect any. If we are to do this it will be in a place and at a time that we are both comfortable and willing. I will want us to approach this with a mutual respect for eachother and and understanding that we are both on our own journeys to seek the truth.

I was thinking more of a small demonstration than a performance. Nothing public and attention whoring. Like I said before, this is more about curiosity and search for the truth. Like if you work in a Yoga studio and I just sit in for the class and maybe we sit and talk for a bit after while I run the monitors on you. That first time wouldn't have any media or cameras present other than maybe a camera phone and that would only be with your permission. And if you want the video deleted before I leave then I will follow your request.

any recordings and recorded evidence can be kept just so long as i also retain a copy. of all of it.. all data from the equipment included.

i also didnt yet give you an answer to time frame. it can vary, from just a few minutes, but in most cases, less than an hr to reach the state. holding it from there varies based on the factors mentioned previously.

[Slartibartfast]

Lol at the agent S thing. Just fooling around. But in terms of convincing non-believers, there are few that are more skeptic than me. So once I am convinced then there is a good chance that others will be as well. Especially since I can speak the "language of the skeptics" which is science.

In terms of science and he supernatural, I allow the numbers to guide me as numbers never lie. I am able to think critically enough to devise an experiment that will ensure that the number attained as relevant as possible to the initial hypothesis. We will also have to agree before hand on what exactly we are testing and I will write up my explanation would be for every possible result. This way, once the result is obtained, you will already have my explanation behind it so you know that I am not making up my mind based on my emotions.

Before you go further, you must know that science works with certainties. The theory of gravity holds true more than 99% of the time (some changes I don't quite understand happen at the speed of light) and these tests will have to provide a conclusive result as well.

Eg. Let's say if you stopped your heart completely for more than a minute or dropped your blood pressure to equal atmospheric pressure (idk I have to read up on this) for a minute as well then that could be seen as supernatural. But dropping your heartrate to 20-30BPM could just signify a high skill in being able controls ones state through concentration. I'll have to read up on BPM as well to see how low RHR could be with practice.

[Slartibartfast]

any recordings and recorded evidence can be kept just so long as i also retain a copy. of all of it.. all data from the equipment included.

i also didnt yet give you an answer to time frame. it can vary, from just a few minutes, but in most cases, less than an hr to reach the state. holding it from there varies based on the factors mentioned previously.

As far as recording go, I'm happy to give you complete control over any and all recordings that do not feature me in it (if I am cropped out then that is also fine). If it includes me then we will have to mutually agree on any use of it.

The time frame is not a problem. The result will have to be the consistent variable. If you do not think you are able to achieve consistent results at this point in time and require further practice then that is fine as well. As for the data from the equipment, the heart rate monitor I have just records the heart rate and blood pressure. It's one of those small portable digital ones that you get in superpharm and see in some health centres and hospitals. That's why I was saying a video recording so you can see all of that. I know it's not much but it will be a good start.

Trained athletes tend to have slow resting heart rates, and resting bradycardia in athletes should not be considered abnormal if the individual has no symptoms associated with it. For example Miguel Indurain, a Spanish cyclist and five time Tour de France winner, had a resting heart rate of 28 beats per minute, one of the lowest ever recorded in a healthy human. Martin Brady achieved the world record for the slowest heartbeat in a healthy human with a heart rate of just 27 bpm in 2005 (a record that still stands).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate

[bluesclues]

Lol at the agent S thing. Just fooling around. But in terms of convincing non-believers, there are few that are more skeptic than me. So once I am convinced then there is a good chance that others will be as well. Especially since I can speak the "language of the skeptics" which is science.

In terms of science and he supernatural, I allow the numbers to guide me as numbers never lie. I am able to think critically enough to devise an experiment that will ensure that the number attained as relevant as possible to the initial hypothesis. We will also have to agree before hand on what exactly we are testing and I will write up my explanation would be for every possible result. This way, once the result is obtained, you will already have my explanation behind it so you know that I am not making up my mind based on my emotions.

Before you go further, you must know that science works with certainties. The theory of gravity holds true more than 99% of the time (some changes I don't quite understand happen at the speed of light) and these tests will have to provide a conclusive result as well.

Eg. Let's say if you stopped your heart completely for more than a minute or dropped your blood pressure to equal atmospheric pressure (idk I have to read up on this) for a minute as well then that could be seen as supernatural. But dropping your heartrate to 20-30BPM could just signify a high skill in being able controls ones state through concentration. I'll have to read up on BPM as well to see how low RHR could be with practice.

i too am a scientist and can speak the language to a great extent. u see how many times i have referred to "the successful experiment" it is because i approached my spiritual pursuits with the scientific method in mind and have studied all fields of science to some detail. including chemistry and biology and the intertwinings of the two. mathematics is a foundation to spirituality as it is part of the logical system of man's design. and i am also a quite adept mathematician. the core essence of spirituality is unifying logic with creativity/imagination. had i neglected one or the other i wouldnt have made it.

you shouldnt have to do too much processing. as i said, once we have the right equipment i expect u should start obtaining 'strange' results from a medical professional's perspective quite quickly. immediately rather. when u show me your data i will be able to explain what it is you are seeing.

[Slartibartfast]

Well we could talk about the two parameters that I am able to test.

So we see that the resting heart rate RHR of a healthy human being has been recorded to be as low as 27 beats per minute (bpm). That means that at this heart rate, and at any rate above, it physically explicable. What do you estimate your heart rate to be when you enter into you state of meditation? If it is above 27 bpm, we could wait until your are able to get below that mark. As you said, you are currently developing your skills and have therefore not reached your full potential. In order for this to be attributed to purely spiritual means it must be well enough below the 27bpm mark that it is impossible for it to be attributed to years of practice and self control. Of course, a completely stopped heart will definitely trump all of this

As for blood pressure, does your blood pressure rise or drop. If it drops below 60/90 then it will be noted but I'm not a doctor so I won't be able to verify if this is due to purely spiritual means or because of something else like hypotension due to diet etc.

[bluesclues]

Well we could talk about the two parameters that I am able to test.

So we see that the resting heart rate RHR of a healthy human being has been recorded to be as low as 27 beats per minute (bpm). That means that at this heart rate, and at any rate above, it physically explicable. What do you estimate your heart rate to be when you enter into you state of meditation? If it is above 27 bpm, we could wait until your are able to get below that mark. As you said, you are currently developing your skills and have therefore not reached your full potential. In order for this to be attributed to purely spiritual means it must be well enough below the 27bpm mark that it is impossible for it to be attributed to years of practice and self control. Of course, a completely stopped heart will definitely trump all of this

As for blood pressure, does your blood pressure rise or drop. If it drops below 60/90 then it will be noted but I'm not a doctor so I won't be able to verify if this is due to purely spiritual means or because of something else like hypotension due to diet etc.

well dying means zero so i will expect 0 or like 1 or something because it's just flow. there shouldnt really be any beats to measure bpm. but ur equipment will tell me if im wrong about that. pressure should rise through certain channels. all being physically controlled. ur going to need brain scan equipment and other forms of radiology. that's where the action really begins for me. in the head. i spread out from there.

[Slartibartfast]

Brain scans would be really interesting but because they arr so expensive it's only under extraordinary circumstances that we would be able to get a hospital to do this for free. But if you can drop your RHR to below 5 then we could look at getting some real qualified doctors involved with all of the equipment at their disposal.

You can let someone test your heart rate for you by letting them hold your wrist while you meditate. The procedure is simple and quite reliable if done properly. You can let me know what you come up with.

[bluesclues]

LOL wouldnt this count as an extra-ordinary circumstance? i have no intention of living in the hospital ok. if we are going to do this the brain scan has to be there from day one. what do u think i want a free brain tumor assessment? blood and heart manipulation are meaningless and easily discarded. if u want to see something truly phenomenal u need to.. get inside my head ;p

[bluesclues]

3 minutes. if the doc doesnt see anything worth taking a closer look after 3 minutes we'll retire and call it a bust.

[Slartibartfast]

Free time on a CT scan would be difficult to get at best without some benefit behind it. But we will get to that bridge later. First of all is, let's say we get this scan done, what results will we expect to see and what will we be able to infer from those results.

I expect increased brain activity in some parts of the brain with inactivity in other parts of the brain (not sure which parts because I never studied brains). But what supernatural phenomenon will that prove?

[bluesclues]

i doubt ull see any inactivity. it should look like a christmas tree. my mind and body are totally filled with the spirit. the waters of qi flow within me in waves but i can control where they flow and how they flow. ur trying to detect spirit remember. ull need every piece of equipment at your disposal. and i consider brain scanning equipment a mandatory. if u cannot find a doc that observes the importance of this discovery and experiment then ur in the same place as me.. Agent S. what use do i have for an agent then?

[Slartibartfast]

Lol @ agent S. I feeling bite up now. But increased brain activity can be attributed to almost anything. Top doctors can't pinpoint exactly which parts of the brain will be activated for a given task. They have a good idea of what regions are associated with which activities but every brain is unique. That means that a significant discovery can't just be unique, it will have to be extraordinary enough to not be explained and "increased brain activity" regardless of how unique and extraordinary will not be seen supernatural in any way. It has already been done before so they won't do it again unless they are sure they are going to see something new.

So what supernatural results can we expect to get. Like 0-5bpm can be viewed to be a supernatural result. We will need something more than
"You will see a lot of increased brain activity"
because their response will be
"We know, meditating is a mental exercise, so it is expected"

[bluesclues]

lol reducing heart rate is supernatural? i find that so feeble. but if that is what scientific academia appreciates then i suppose i can do that. itll be too bad, because id think ud want to and also need to see what goes on in my brain while i perform this activity. ull be totally blind when i flatline. as i said, not because my blood stopped flowing, but because it no longer flows in pulses.. and that is how the machines measure bpm. no pulse.. no bpm.

so what u will want is for me to flatline and stay there for as long as possible and then come back i suppose. this is what ull consider supernatural. lol. either way, the answer is.. ok.. we can try it.

but in addition.. i dont have to start meditating for the scan to show curious activity im pretty certain. i said 3 minutes, but it was a hint that i need no time atall.

[DJ]

how de hell is gettin into a psycopath head going to prove the existence of god?

[bluesclues]

how de hell is gettin into a psycopath head going to prove the existence of god?

it would prove that ur just a hairless monkey with no interest in evolving any further.

[bluesclues]

anyway.. im out. if u want to discuss further pm me and ill give u an email contact and we'll continue discussing the possibility of forming trinidad's first spiritual science institute. i understand the need to work from the ground up. as that's just how things are.

[AdamB]

so yes, all that i have said on the topic is my opinion. but it is the opinion of someone who has truly seen the light.. and possess it. u are speaking to a true spiritually enlightened man. what i accomplished is called samadhi. and it is what every religion on the earth tries to guide us to accomplish.

You obviously have never heard of a religion called ISLAM!

Plus, every insane person will utter what you have stated above...truly seen the light....possess it...

[Slartibartfast]

I taking a back seat for a while as well. Work starting to pile up again. Bluesclues I sent you a pm so we could keep continue this later if anything.