The Religion Discussion

[Slartibartfast]

Slartibartfast:

Can the created be greater than the creator?

Can a robot (created) be greater than a human being (creator)?

Yes.

Example... calculators

[civicman]

But the calculator robot car etc
Cant do any thing on its own.

[meccalli]

You must think very little of yourself if you think a calculator is *seriously* better than a human being I assume in all aspects to carry out functions derived in the mind of the creator.

[Slartibartfast]

Why would it. It was designed to perform calculations in seconds that may take some humans hours or even days. It works to it's design perfectly. What would you possibly want a calculator to do on its own?

Some cars can do things on their own. Like applying brakes quicker than a human could and in some cases even parallel park. Man constantly creates machines that are better then himself/herself because human recognise the limitations to their abilities and make machines to stretch those limitations.

A lot more is becoming possible every year. Just because something is not possible now doesn't mean it is impossible.

Also, I am still awaiting a direct answer to the following question
"What significant contribution has any religion or God made to our society (or any society really) that could not have been made without religion or God (or a belief in either)?"
If there is not an answer to this question then one can argue that at best, God is now irrelevant to our lives here on Earth.

[bluesclues]

none of those things can think for themselves or program themselves. they need an intelligence to create, structure and program their functions into them.

[Slartibartfast]

What you are looking for is for a robot that replicates human life but that is better than a human. Sure there is R and D going on there, but, not as much as you think. This is because the possible uses of a humanoid robot do not justify the amount of money needed to build it. Also, it will be the more complex piece of machinery ever built. You are talking about a supercomputer within a machine made up of several independently moving parts. However, look at the creations man has made that has practical uses. They out performs humans in the function they were designed for to a point where it is no longer comparable. You have to consider this from a feasibility point of an engineer.

Now how about an answer to that one question that I asked.

[bluesclues]

the answer to your question is simple. go and read your constitution and the constitution of all democratic countries. the rights therein are appointed by God so that no man can take it away. if it were not for christianity, you would not have the right to freedom of religious beliefs or any rights whatsoever. if a man give it a man can take it away. but what God give no man can take away. the right to life and all the other rights afforded in the constitution are effectively annulled with no God. no God leaves the door open for tyrranical rulers such as the old days of kingship. the king did what he want, he took what he wanted. the people owned nothing, not even their lives. the development of christianity brought all men to equal playing field.. somewhat. all must abide by the same laws and respect the individual rights of others regardless of race, or societal status. at least that is how it supposed to be if there was no corrupt people.

basically, u wouldnt be able to enjoy the rights and freedoms u have in trinidad today without the christian religion. and those are protected for the weak as well. its a gravitation away from 'survival of the fittest' to 'being your brother's keeper'.

imagine kamla abolishing the constitution in the morning to enstate herself as permanent ruler of trinidad. if there was no God belief, she could. that is no longer allowed because power is now dispersed among the people.. as long as they are not too ignorant to know how to excercise their rights. which unfortunately is something trinis still have to learn.

but that is just one thing good religion has done. faith is responsible for the birth of science itself so i dont know why people try to separate the two when they work hand in hand with eachother.

[VLDS]

Hahahahah. Christianity is the reason I have my freedom in trinidad.
No son. It's because of leaders of the past, forefathers and past influencers that worked to earn it.
And without religion kamla still wouldn't do that. Know why? Cuz this is a democracy, people would have to vote and Noone would want that.

[Slartibartfast]

Dude... The constitution was not written or provided by God. It was not even divinely inspired. Yes it can be dedicated to God and quote rights as "God given" but that may have been written by people who believed God existed. It does not provide proof of God or give reference to something that does.

The constitution was written by man. A lot of "freedoms" that you enjoy today were first fought for before the Church even considered it. Gay rights and Atheism are two of them that have gotten a lot of attention recently. Before you could be condemned to death for either (in some extremest countries you still can) because of religion.

Also, (I'm just throwing out an idea here and although it is possible I am not saying it ever happened) if I wanted to get my country to agree with a constitution I wrote and I knew most of them were religious, wouldn't it make sense to state that what I write is sanctioned by God in order to get people to accept what I am writing down more easily?

Try again bluesclues. That one does not count because people can fight for their freedoms without it having anything to do with God. I'm looking for something that only God or religion can provide to show that either one of them (preferably both) are still relevant to our lives today (or any day for the past 2000 years)

[bluesclues]

Hahahahah. Christianity is the reason I have my freedom in trinidad.
No son. It's because of leaders of the past, forefathers and past influencers that worked to earn it.
And without religion kamla still wouldn't do that. Know why? Cuz this is a democracy, people would have to vote and Noone would want that.

u dont understand the term democracy. it is a christian establishment smarty pants. did u go and read the constitution? read the very first sentence. everything under that is anulled without a belief in God. u better believe it.

[Dizzy28]

Hahahahah. Christianity is the reason I have my freedom in trinidad.
No son. It's because of leaders of the past, forefathers and past influencers that worked to earn it.
And without religion kamla still wouldn't do that. Know why? Cuz this is a democracy, people would have to vote and Noone would want that.

u dont understand the term democracy. it is a christian establishment smarty pants. did u go and read the constitution? read the very first sentence. everything under that is anulled without a belief in God. u better believe it.

So we have a discriminatory constitution?

[JF.K]

No son. It's because of leaders of the past, forefathers and past influencers that worked to earn it.

And are you saying that these leaders, forefathers, influencers were all athesists or had no religious or godly background?
And if they did had a (godly) background then don't you think that their belief and what they fought for was influenced by it?
Just saying...

[bluesclues]

Hahahahah. Christianity is the reason I have my freedom in trinidad.
No son. It's because of leaders of the past, forefathers and past influencers that worked to earn it.
And without religion kamla still wouldn't do that. Know why? Cuz this is a democracy, people would have to vote and Noone would want that.

u dont understand the term democracy. it is a christian establishment smarty pants. did u go and read the constitution? read the very first sentence. everything under that is anulled without a belief in God. u better believe it.

So we have a discriminatory constitution?

actually no. its the closest thing to non discriminatory man has ever achieved. atheists force believers to become atheists. they dont respect religious freedom. but christianity and democracy does. it even respects your right to blaspheme God or disavow him as an atheist andcoexist in a society peacefully without being persecuted. but if you give a man or group of men power over your human rights then a man can take them away. but if they come from God then no man can take them away. this is the establishment u live in now. any other option is much worse.

do u have a better system?

[megadoc1]

ISIS is leaving a path of destroyed churches, shrines and mosques in its wake as it storms across Syria and Iraq, and has even set its sights on Mecca -- Islam's holiest site.

The nihilistic jihadis, led by self-proclaimed descendant of Prophet Muhammad Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, have already bulldozed or blown up some of the most sacred places in Iraq, and seem bent on killing and destroying anyone or anything that does not measure up to their vision of Islam. Experts say the group, which originally stood for Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, but now simply calls itself "Islamic State," has appointed itself the leading proponent of the Muslim faith.

“They see themselves as the last defenders of Islamic civilization and want to eradicate anything that they see as the enemy of Islam, and any Muslim they perceive as compromising with the West,” Yvonne Haddad, a professor at Georgetown University who specializes in the history of Islam and Christian-Muslim relations, told FoxNews.com.

read more link below


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/09/isis-destroys-shrines-and-mosques-sets-sights-on-mecca/?intcmp=HPBucket

[bluesclues]

what rights can you really claim as an atheist? without God as he is deemed there is no reason for moral grounding and things like ethics. its every man for himself or his bandwagon. so no its not discriminatory at all. if u want rights u must 'affirm the belief in a higher power'.

if there is no higher power, i can do what i want without consequence, including kill u because u wore a green shirt today and i dont like people who wear green shirts.

[Slartibartfast]

u dont understand the term democracy. it is a christian establishment smarty pants. did u go and read the constitution? read the very first sentence. everything under that is anulled without a belief in God. u better believe it.

I find a response to my points raised is lacking.

Anyway, I have copied the the introduction of the constitution of Trinidad and Tobago below. As a scholarly exercise, I have left out all references to God to see if it still makes sense.

Whereas the People of Trinidad and Tobago—
(a) have affirmed that the Nation of Trinidad and
Tobago is founded upon principles that
acknowledge faith in
fundamental human rights and freedoms, the
position of the family in a society of free men
and free institutions, the dignity of the human
person and the equal and inalienable rights with
which all members of the human family are
endowed by their Creator;
(b) respect the principles of social justice and
therefore believe that the operation of the
economic system should result in the material
resources of the community being so distributed
as to subserve the common good, that there
should be adequate means of livelihood for all,
that labour should not be exploited or forced by
economic necessity to operate in inhumane
conditions but that there should be opportunity
for advancement on the basis of recognition of
merit, ability and integrity;
(c) have asserted their belief in a democratic society
in which all persons may, to the extent of their
capacity, play some part in the institutions of the
national life and thus develop and maintain due
respect for lawfully constituted authority;
(d) recognise that men and institutions remain free
only when freedom is founded upon respect for
moral and spiritual values and the rule of law;
(e) desire that their Constitution should enshrine the
above-mentioned principles and beliefs and
make provision for ensuring the protection in
Trinidad and Tobago of fundamental human
rights and freedoms.
Now, therefore the following provisions shall have effect as
the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago:

Still looks good to me

[bluesclues]

look again. u havent left out anything...

rights of the human family endowed by their creator.

[bluesclues]

basically, everything under

a)

is annulled if u dont do as a says in affirming the belief in the existence of a higher power.

respecting spiritual values etc..

spirit is what spearates us from a machine, a calculator or car.

machines dont have rights. u cant have ur cake and eat it. if their is no God and man has no soul, then he is a robot and deserves no rights. this is logical.

[maj. tom]

basically, everything under

a)

is annulled if u dont do as a says in affirming the belief in the existence of a higher power.

respecting spiritual values etc..

spirit is what spearates us from a machine, a calculator or car.

machines dont have rights. u cant have ur cake and eat it. if their is no God and man has no soul, then he is a robot and deserves no rights. this is logical.

so people who don't believe in God do not deserve Human Rights?

[bluesclues]

basically, everything under

a)

is annulled if u dont do as a says in affirming the belief in the existence of a higher power.

respecting spiritual values etc..

spirit is what spearates us from a machine, a calculator or car.

machines dont have rights. u cant have ur cake and eat it. if their is no God and man has no soul, then he is a robot and deserves no rights. this is logical.

so people who don't believe in God do not deserve Human Rights?

not a question of deserving. u should now see the power of God that protects even his strayaway children. u are afforded those rights in a free and tolerant society because they are given to u by God whether you acknowledge that or not.

but yes.. if the whole country turned away from God then men in leadership positions are given a path to strip you of all those rights to maintain their power over the masses. your right to vote, and all the rest of it could be taken away unless they were granted by a higher power.

and they try.. they try every day to circumvent the constitution to stay in power. and u help them by trying to further an atheist agenda. yes, u will lose all your rights under atheist rule because the man in charge will become corrupted by his power having nothing above him in his mind to answer to.

think about it this way. how many people would not be alive today if u could kill and not have to go to jail? give a man that power without the moral grounding of God as his higher power and he will indeed please his mind.

it boils down to whether u trust a man to administer your rights, or God which is a power above man. your choice. doesnt bother me either which way at this point.

[JF.K]

basically, everything under

a)

is annulled if u dont do as a says in affirming the belief in the existence of a higher power.

respecting spiritual values etc..

spirit is what spearates us from a machine, a calculator or car.

machines dont have rights. u cant have ur cake and eat it. if their is no God and man has no soul, then he is a robot and deserves no rights. this is logical.

so people who don't believe in God do not deserve Human Rights?

not a question of deserving. u should now see the power of God that protects even his strayaway children. u are afforded those rights in a free and tolerant society because they are given to u by God whether you acknowledge that or not.

but yes.. if the whole country turned away from God then men in leadership positions are given a path to strip you of all those rights to maintain their power over the masses. your right to vote, and all the rest of it could be taken away unless they were granted by a higher power.

and they try.. they try every day to circumvent the constitution to stay in power. and u help them by trying to further an atheist agenda. yes, u will lose all your rights under atheist rule because the man in charge will become corrupted by his power having nothing above him in his mind to answer to.

think about it this way. how many people would not be alive today if u could kill and not have to go to jail? give a man that power without the moral grounding of God as his higher power and he will indeed please his mind.

it boils down to whether u trust a man to administer your rights, or God which is a power above man. your choice. doesnt bother me either which way at this point.

X2

[maj. tom]

I see what you mean. This is why the EU and Canada are such terrible places to live because of their blatant and heinous disregard of human rights.

[bluesclues]

I see what you mean. This is why the EU and Canada are such terrible places to live because of their blatant and heinous disregard of human rights.

im having trouble following ur sarcasm there but i have some stuff to see about now. will maybe get back to u later.

but pay attention to the words 'inalienable human rights' in any country's constitution. it's 'inalienable' for a reason.

[Dizzy28]

Hahahahah. Christianity is the reason I have my freedom in trinidad.
No son. It's because of leaders of the past, forefathers and past influencers that worked to earn it.
And without religion kamla still wouldn't do that. Know why? Cuz this is a democracy, people would have to vote and Noone would want that.

u dont understand the term democracy. it is a christian establishment smarty pants. did u go and read the constitution? read the very first sentence. everything under that is anulled without a belief in God. u better believe it.

So we have a discriminatory constitution?

actually no. its the closest thing to non discriminatory man has ever achieved. atheists force believers to become atheists. they dont respect religious freedom. but christianity and democracy does. it even respects your right to blaspheme God or disavow him as an atheist andcoexist in a society peacefully without being persecuted. but if you give a man or group of men power over your human rights then a man can take them away. but if they come from God then no man can take them away. this is the establishment u live in now. any other option is much worse.

do u have a better system?

I have read many pieces of BS in this thread but this ranks up there with the worst of them. I have yet to meet an Atheist who wants me to become an Atheist. I have met quite a lot of Christians and Muslims who want me to become one of them.

[Chimera]

saw this comment posted on my facebook feed this morning

"Strength is life! Weakness is death! He is an atheist who has no self confidence.. "


lol

i would think it was the athiest who has self confidence due to the fact that he does not need a imaginary entity to attribute life/success/failure to.

[Slartibartfast]

Don't have much time to do a full response but like I said, the constitution was thought up of and written by man. There is no evidence that this would not have come about if God was not mentioned in the passage.

In the end God only comes in to play for a few words in the constitution. It was created by man and it is upheld be man. I am trying to deduce whether God is even needed in the world today. Even if he is involved in something does not mean he needed to be.

Now move on to the next example. This one is null and void.

[Kasey]

I see what you mean. This is why the EU and Canada are such terrible places to live because of their blatant and heinous disregard of human rights.

im having trouble following ur sarcasm there but i have some stuff to see about now. will maybe get back to u later.

but pay attention to the words 'inalienable human rights' in any country's constitution. it's 'inalienable' for a reason.

Yes, by reading your posts, it is obvious that you are kind of slow. You are on the way to understanding though by your admittance to your faults. Congrats.

Anyway, why do you think that without the belief in god that there would be mayhem and evil? sOme of the most successful places in the world are primarily atheists states. It says a lot about you if you ONLY do good for the promise of a reward or for the fear of a higher power. Small minded people think like that. It also means that you not Genuinely good, you only good because god say so. Would you like your child to be good ONLY when you are present, or when he thinks you are watching them? Can you let common sense prevail here please?

I do good because I think that it is the right thing to do and I think that doing good is better for the progress of society and my neighbor. I do not do bad because it is nonproductive and unfair to my fellow man. I am an agnostic.

[nareshseep]

[bluesclues]

I see what you mean. This is why the EU and Canada are such terrible places to live because of their blatant and heinous disregard of human rights.

im having trouble following ur sarcasm there but i have some stuff to see about now. will maybe get back to u later.

but pay attention to the words 'inalienable human rights' in any country's constitution. it's 'inalienable' for a reason.

Yes, by reading your posts, it is obvious that you are kind of slow. You are on the way to understanding though by your admittance to your faults. Congrats.

Anyway, why do you think that without the belief in god that there would be mayhem and evil? sOme of the most successful places in the world are primarily atheists states. It says a lot about you if you ONLY do good for the promise of a reward or for the fear of a higher power. Small minded people think like that. It also means that you not Genuinely good, you only good because god say so. Would you like your child to be good ONLY when you are present, or when he thinks you are watching them? Can you let common sense prevail here please?

I do good because I think that it is the right thing to do and I think that doing good is better for the progress of society and my neighbor. I do not do bad because it is nonproductive and unfair to my fellow man. I am an agnostic.

u make too many assumptions. i dont do good. i live good with my fellow man. that includes not badtalking people behind their back. it includes telling the truth even if it will get you in trouble, it includes facing the consequences of your actions like a man when it requires punishment and not hide or conceal it so that i can avoid it, it includes seeking always to become higher in moral eptitude and ethical and honourable cavort. it includes not cheating on my girlfriends or otherwise any i have vowed a commitment to, it includes not doing wickedness and evil towards someone for kicks or making fun and mockery of them for their failings. it also includes not bearing false witness and the attmepts to degrade a person's conviction of belief and way of life through psychological banter.

but what it really is living in accordance with natural law and the operations and design of the universe in adherence to the wishes of the father and creator of the cosmos. do i do it for reward? no. i have already received my reward and seek not for any further reward. why did i do it? to find out if what all is said was true so that i can help the profane unbelievers like you to find the proof you and the whole human race seeks.

to me u are in doubt. but i am not. for me that is a thing of pity. because im sure youd prefer to know the truth than just to be right in your assumption that there is no God. but i learned something new recently. those who seek shall find. if u seek halfway ull half find. and if u dont seek you wont find anything. i have no interest in your ridiculous accusations and paintings of my moral character. i never claimed to be perfect... yet.

state atheism fails without religious acceptance. not because of anything other than man's undying spirit and the 'nature' of human design. if u have no soul then i commend you for being a walking talking dead thing. if you believe in the soul and spiritual identity of man then you also believe in invisible living beings of which it is not at all far fetched to believe that those invisible beings and attributes of living things also have an invisible father.

if you want to ignore spiritual pursuits.. that is your perogative. but you have no place looking down on those who do. you live in a very large world in which you know nothing in all that there is to know. dont assume you know things because you havent seen them. there are 7 billion ppl on this planet that have seen things youve never seen. thats at least 7 billion things that you dont even know exist.. yet you are able to form a conclusion on the facts and purpose of existence. i dont know if there's anything more foolish.

[bluesclues]

karmic law is for the protection of the meek. and for those who do wickedness because they feel to. can you stop a serial killer from killing you? it is about balance and justice. live good and be rewarded. but while living good you can be made victim. what then will balance things off for theose who do evil? you can stand on you own moral ground but without the help of God the invisible.. life in the spirit is not guaranteed. if you dont believe in spirit then that shouldnt bother you. so dont worry about it.

in short.. live good and be rewarded. live bad and be punished. what justice can there be if the wicked are punished but those who endure in goodness are not rewarded. our God is just. if u do not want to see you will remain blind. its all about choices.