The Religion Discussion

[Slartibartfast]

Now coming back to bluefete responses for a second

Only God can give life, regardless of how it happens. Satan has no role in creating but only in destruction....

...The problem is that God allows evil to happen because of our sinful nature.

If the birth causes the mother to be executed, that is not the mother's fault but the fault of people of extremist beliefs. It mirrors the state of the world today.

But I thought God was just. Where is the justice in that if she was a God fearing woman that intended to remain "pure" for marriage. Why would God allow that to happen to her? Isn't the saying "It's not my will, but Thy will be done"? You can't place all the blame on the extremists because God created them to.

Yuh saying that rape is gods will then?

...God controls death and life....

This seems like a yes to me. If it is a no, please elaborate. But if is a yes, the ethics of God would have to be completely screwed.

The fact that u said she was a burden shows how low you are dred. This is a religion discussion but ur ethics out a place. Doh even try and fight back. That real bad dred. My brother was brain damaged and lived for 11 years 1 month. Up to now if my mother hear u say sh it like that she will fcuk u up.

I think you confusing MG man here VLDS. You can't deny having to pay extra care and attention to a brain damaged child would be tiring. Doctors visits and check ups could also be financially tough. Not to mention the fact that not anyone might be able to babysit the child meaning the parents would have less time to themselves. Explain to me how this is not a burden.

In fact, for the first 18 years of any child's life, they are a burden on the parents. You have to pay for clothes and school and make sure they have everything else they need. Now I'm sure if you ask most parents, they would lay down their life for their child within a heartbeat because despite the burden that their child is, that burden is worth it.

So VLDS don't confuse me and MG man when we call something a burden and think we mean something is wrong with the person or we rather not have the person there. In life you have to take the bad with the good.

Some quick examples of when you can say something is a burden and still love it and not want to give it up.
1. Children... they destroy $hit but playing a game of small goal with them and tell me you don't just love the little buggers
2. Your job... in town with that morning traffic, but you making nice $$$
3. A bess subaru... cuz parts more expensive that an almera and you have to use premium but it renders all panties within a 10ft radius unable to stay up
4. A big house... bills like wow, you need two maids to clean it but you have an entertainment room as big as Zen.

[Kasey]

^^I dont think these young'uns on the level of thinking us ole ones are on as yet (I eh boasing ah smart eh, just that ah feel ah understand slart, and MG on ah different level because of the time I monitoring this thread = 5 years!!!). Lets excuse them....... I understand where MG is coming from and agree with him.

A burden is not something that is nescessarily bad, just a hindrance that one could really do without......

[bluesclues]

Yeah pretty much considering the guy who created the current formula for rocket fuel attempted to make a homunculus under the guidance of crowley and lavey.

haha this one is news. got a link? not totally strange tho. man needs to keep trying to see if he could build a man from scratch to scientifically differentiate between 'i am' and 'machine'.

[meccalli]

Yeah, its pretty well known by jack parsons'(JPL lab founder) colleagues of his dark side and his connection with anton lavey, ron l hubbard and aleister crowley. They've been chasing the same goals as the nazis to resurrect the old ones through demonic contact as well as the old art of alchemy and works of paracelsus who detailed the creation of humunculi. Strange how these great minds buy into 'mumbo jumbo'.
http://www.bariumblues.com/jpl.htm
just one of the many links you'll find on the web. That link is pretty concise.

[Slartibartfast]

Current fuel for what rocket fuel. There are different formulas depending on rocket size, duration of burn, force of burst etc.

The book "ignition" covers it all and should be available for free online. It's the only book about the history of rocket fuel written by a rocket fuel scientist. Entertaining book to. Never thought I would get the chance to talk about it. .. and in the religion thread of all places

[bluesclues]

Yeah, its pretty well known by jack parsons'(JPL lab founder) colleagues of his dark side and his connection with anton lavey, ron l hubbard and aleister crowley. They've been chasing the same goals as the nazis to resurrect the old ones through demonic contact as well as the old art of alchemy and works of paracelsus who detailed the creation of humunculi. Strange how these great minds buy into 'mumbo jumbo'.
http://www.bariumblues.com/jpl.htm
just one of the many links you'll find on the web. That link is pretty concise.

right that's what i thought. yeah nasa recruited nazis to help them build the space shuttle after the war since that is what the nazis were working on and becoming quite successful at it. so yeah i did know about their connection to nazis and the nazis pursuance of occult knowledge. too bad they listened to crowley tho. he was a pretty vindictive sod. whatever he knew, if he did indeed know anything he would deliberately mislead his students or those who mentored him to something worse than just failure but to destroy themselves and succeed at nothing. he stated "they who follow deserve to be misled". hubbard wrote the brainwashing manual and it pretty much exposes the science of psychiatry as a major fraud organisation that functions hand in hand with governments to cull the masses. it could be used by a ruler for great good or for great evil.

[meccalli]

GALCIT-53, asphalt based with a perchlorate oxidiser, case bonded fuel which was the breakthrough in creating the solid, castable fuels nasa and the military have today. Then he died shortly after the babalon working, strangely at which time coincided with the mass initial ufo sightings at that time followed by roswell and israel. This was 40 years after crowley sketched the supposed extra dimensional being he was in contact with that convinced them to open a way for his 'race'. Crowley apparently warned an over-enthusiastic parsons against the working(imagine that).

[Chimera]

Humans of New York
"I've been a deep believer my whole life. 18 years as a Southern Baptist. More than 40 years as a mainline Protestant. I'm an ordained pastor. But it's just stopped making sense to me. You see people doing terrible things in the name of religion, and you think: 'Those people believe just as strongly as I do. They're just as convinced as I am.' And it just doesn't make sense anymore. It doesn't make sense to believe in a God that dabbles in people's lives. If a plane crashes, and one person survives, everyone thanks God. They say: 'God had a purpose for that person. God saved her for a reason!' Do we not realize how cruel that is? Do we not realize how cruel it is to say that if God had a purpose for that person, he also had a purpose in killing everyone else on that plane? And a purpose in starving millions of children? A purpose in slavery and genocide? For every time you say that there's a purpose behind one person's success, you invalidate billions of people. You say there is a purpose to their suffering. And that's just cruel."

[meccalli]

LOL, I guess that 'pastor' never read his bible if he can make that statement.

t doesn't make sense to believe in a God that dabbles in people's lives.

It's very sad some people go down this route only to cause many to fall away not knowing God at all because they were busy following tradition. The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God's children.- roms 8.

[Chimera]

LOL @ people still using quotes from the bible to justify the bible.

[Slartibartfast]

LOL, I guess that 'pastor' never read his bible if he can make that statement.

t doesn't make sense to believe in a God that dabbles in people's lives.

It's very sad some people go down this route only to cause many to fall away not knowing God at all because they were busy following tradition. The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God's children.- roms 8.

Meccalli, I think you sidestepped the issue entirely, or your answer just went over my head. Are you saying that

A) God is not responsible saving people from plane crashes and people's successes and therefore not responsible for stuff like slavery and genocide or are you saying
B) he is responsible for all of the above.

BTW I Gonna read up on the rocket fuel for absolutely no reason other than it sounds really cool.

[meccalli]

Well its not a simple answer but I'll just throw out some verses that makes things clear."Can you search through God's complex things? Can you uncover the limits of the Almighty?" “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. This is in the context of punishment upon his rebellious nation but its clear that God allows these things to happen because of man's rebellious attitude.So..God provided a way out for man. This period is ongoing to this day fortunately for us. Romans 1 paints a great picture.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So what does this have to do with anything,- its sin. Whatever its nature truly is, the bible tells us that sin brings death, man loves to sin so God doesn't force his hand and allows man to continue sinning, yolo right? But whatever it is, a law of the universe or something, it corrupts everything, destroys and brings sadness, horror and atrocities. But God isn't the one sinning, here he's giving man a choice to come to him and live a righteous life, but he doesn't want to, Paul tells us that when man knew God he didn't care and i'm sure if God revealed himself today, many people would try to kill him because they don't like his ideals. So man is destroying himself and bringing the wages of sin upon himself and their future generations.

However, God promises mercy and grace upon those who do love him and serve him and for that, God spirit of power and protection is upon those individuals(the hedge spoken of in job) and in the case of a miraculous event, many may benefit because of one righteous man's life as is the case in many biblical events. What's left now is for his plan to pan out to bring about the kingdom of God where he can once again tabernacle with his beloved creation, you.

So if I had to pick, it would be B, in the light that God won't stop man forcibly from sinning and bringing about his own demise.

[Slartibartfast]

So you are saying that flying in a plane is a sin and that's why the accident victims deserved to die?

Ok let me give you a simpler and more relevant question in hopes of getting a simpler answer. Tell me if you think God is responsible for the following. It happened to a friend of mine that I went to school with for 7 years.

It was easter sunday a few years ago (2010 or 2011 I think) and his parents were on their way back from Easter Sunday morning mass travelling along the west bound lane by Macoya intersection. Out of nowhere, a vehicle crossed the intersection and landed on top of their car, killing the both of them and leaving my friend (an only child) without any parents. Now my friend's parents were the epitome of what Christianity is. Kind, calm, forgiving, they go the church every weekend and live out their faith the rest of the week. My friend was nothing out of the ordinary, A bit above average, academically speaking, kind, polite and thoughtful, just like his parents. The only thing I ever saw him get in trouble for was playing football in the corridor or classroom.

Now tell me, why would God let something like that happen. Did he let his parent engineer their own demise by climbing into that car? What about the pain that he had to go through?

Also, assuming God exists, what sense does it make giving us free will if God has a plan? No matter what we do, good or bad, the outcome would be the same.

[Chimera]

Uploaded on Mar 23, 2009
All text taken directly from online Christian fundamentalist forums.

[nareshseep]

So you are saying that flying in a plane is a sin and that's why the accident victims deserved to die?

Ok let me give you a simpler and more relevant question in hopes of getting a simpler answer. Tell me if you think God is responsible for the following. It happened to a friend of mine that I went to school with for 7 years.

It was easter sunday a few years ago (2010 or 2011 I think) and his parents were on their way back from Easter Sunday morning mass travelling along the west bound lane by Macoya intersection. Out of nowhere, a vehicle crossed the intersection and landed on top of their car, killing the both of them and leaving my friend (an only child) without any parents. Now my friend's parents were the epitome of what Christianity is. Kind, calm, forgiving, they go the church every weekend and live out their faith the rest of the week. My friend was nothing out of the ordinary, A bit above average, academically speaking, kind, polite and thoughtful, just like his parents. The only thing I ever saw him get in trouble for was playing football in the corridor or classroom.

Now tell me, why would God let something like that happen. Did he let his parent engineer their own demise by climbing into that car? What about the pain that he had to go through?

Also, assuming God exists, what sense does it make giving us free will if God has a plan? No matter what we do, good or bad, the outcome would be the same.

Dont fear, his reward is in heaven, even if it is imaginary

[meccalli]

I'm sorry about your friend. We're all humans and we die, everyone loses loved ones. I can't get into God's mind, I could question so many things that has happened in my family, but his ways aren't mine. I just have to trust him. We ask why does bad things happen to good people. Job relentlessly asked God that very thing when his entire family was allowed by God to be killed by lucifer. And if sons, then also heirs; heirs of God and co-heirs with Yeshua The Messiah, for if we suffer with him, we shall also be glorified with him. In the Bible, its the greatest servants of God that suffered terrible acts and gruesome, painful deaths. The apostles,disciples, not to mention old prophets like Jeremiah who were sawn in half alive.
I have come to accept whether i'm ready or not- that in the near future should the time come, that i as a Christian may need to endure such and witness the same to my beloved. But that family would know as people if they truly lived their lives for God, that we do not need to fear death, and to be absent from the body is to be present with God. The outcome won't be the same, an individual has that choice to come to God and be a part of the kingdom or just let his soul die after this life. A likeness can be drawn to moses calling to the children of israel, Whoever is for the lord, come to this side. The rest perished.

[Slartibartfast]

I remember the story of Job. Basically God let Job lose everything to win a bet with Lucifer. The prize being Job's soul I guess... and you are telling me you trust this guy (assuming he exists of course)?

Also, what difference would it make if God (a Lucifer) did not exist (assuming they exist right now)? Wouldn't bad still happen to good people and good happen to bad people? Assuming this means heaven and hell no longer exist either, wouldn't things be exactly the same as they are now?

[meccalli]

In my view, we would not exist either.

[Advent]

This christian god is so incompetent eh, he needs humans to convince other humans he (it) exists pfffffffff

[desifemlove]

Jus two questions here (for Christians and Muslims):

- How come the Quran talk about punishment and damnation a lot, when Allah is supposed to be benevolent and kind (per the Abrahamic tradition)?

- How can de Bible be true, when Caesar Constantine and the Nicean Council changed de Bible to keep de books dey liked? So dey could be Gospels, part of de Old Testament, even books similar to Acts, Revelation, Paul's letters and ting we'll never know of... How then is de Bible true work of God?

[Advent]

Jus two questions here (for Christians and Muslims):

- How come the Quran talk about punishment and damnation a lot, when Allah is supposed to be benevolent and kind (per the Abrahamic tradition)?

- How can de Bible be true, when Caesar Constantine and the Nicean Council changed de Bible to keep de books dey liked? So dey could be Gospels, part of de Old Testament, even books similar to Acts, Revelation, Paul's letters and ting we'll never know of... How then is de Bible true work of God?

that is incorrect, they actually created the bible as we know it lol, several books didnt make the canon too

[Slartibartfast]

In my view, we would not exist either.

This has got to be the cheapest sidestep to a question I have ever seen.

You completely ignored the first question. Will you trust a guy that takes away everything good in your life in order to win a bet? And the prize is that the winner gets to keep your most valuable possession.

And for the second question, for us not to exist without God you must first prove that we exist because of God. You will say this is stated in the Bible (i.e. QED). But then you have to prove the bible is which can on be verified by... the bible?

But let's ignore the biblical circlejerk and sound reasoning for a second and assume the premise that God exists is correct and everything written in the bible is fact. The question stays the same. I am asking if God and/or Lucifer have any impact on the world today. If they do not then why are they relevant? If they do impact the world please state how. Good will happen and bad will happen independent of a person's faith or actions.

[meccalli]

lol, would you really ask me a question like that knowing my stance? I thought that would be obvious by now. My God is God, he can do what he wants, I am his creation and glad that he gives us an end that surpasses any tribulation we can experience for lets see, less than 100 years? I'm 21, I don't know how long I have again.(pretty short any way you slice it)
That's what I got at with aba's response. When we truly come into the fold and receive the gift that is our guidance and comfort, God's ruach.

The spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. It's a supernatural assurance you have that comes from nowhere suddenly in the face of any doubt, its truly amazing. I can't tell why but I just know. I don't have to prove God, he proved himself to me in the deep of my being many times.

Well, I have to get into the word again, its my manual for these questions. Satan is referred to as the God of this world in scripture, the people serve and revel in his glorious blasphemies. As for the works of these opposing forces.So obviously, since the rebellion, satan and some fallen ones are free to do as they please..to a certain extent, excluding the imprisoned angels(tartarus) responsible for the genesis 6 incursion. Now for our present time, the last move we are waiting for is the revealing of the son of perdition. At that point the bible tells us the restrainer, the spirit of the father will continue to restrain until the man of sin is revealed and will be taken away, allowing satan to ramp along with the chained angels who will be freed to rendezvous with him in that period of chaos then God steps in when man finally sees the big picture and needs him.

That's the main thing, concerning our personal lives, the non spiritual man is just spoken of as being left to the devices of the enemy due to his ways. It warns the believer that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but with powers, principalities, wickedness in high places. Also, of the promise of persecution and hurt we would face in coming to God in a sinful environment. That's just an over view, there's many circumstances we can learn from when people of God went wrong and fell into the hands of evil. Remember than sin is consequential in our time, great men of God who repented and were forgiven still faced the full brunt of their previous actions, but their slate is clean because of God's grace where it really counts.

[Slartibartfast]

Well I can't carry on an argument that is not based in reality and reason so I don't have much of a response. All I can say is that you should read over what you wrote and think about it as critically as you can.You may find that you believe some of those things only because you were told to believe them and any time those thoughts were questioned it was answered with a call to have faith (i.e. believe it is true because you are told it is true).

P.S. There is a flesh a blood fight going on and you have to be blind not to see it, but I believe there is also a greater fight between principalities, powers and wickedness in high places that is often mostly ignored for self gain. So I think this is one point we could at least agree upon. The point being the need to be good and do what is right, even when it inconveniences you to.

[nareshseep]

[Chimera]

My opinion is that only the weak minded would believe in a completely fictional entity to protect them/help them/ reward them. Religious leaders use this weak mindedness to elevate their personal wealth.

[Slartibartfast]

My opinion is that only the weak minded would believe in a completely fictional entity to protect them/help them/ reward them. Religious leaders use this weak mindedness to elevate their personal wealth.

This is especially true for all them small "Ministries" out there. I overhear two old people talking on maxi about how this person give up their job to dedicate their life to their ministry full time and got kicked out of the ministry because of it. Reason being "If he working at he ministry, he wouldn't have any income to pay the monthly dues"

But that being said, there are some really good standup guys that are religious leaders, but you don't find them that much in the smaller ministries.

[Dizzy28]

AdamB heeding the call to join the Caliphate in Iraq?

[RASC]

Meanwhile oil prices are steadily rising at all time highs right now...no one is in all out panic mode just yet.

Let this drag onto Sept/Oct with winter coming. SMH.

[AdamB]

Except for Abu Bakr and his bunch of 1990 terrorists (what sect do they belong to anyway?), Sh'ite and Sunni muslims live reasonably well together in T&T, notwithstanding their differences.

Just like people of other religions and atheists co-exist in T&T.

Maybe Adamb can contribute here.

Notwithstanding, we need to keep a very close eye on the extremists in our midst because you never know what links they may have with ISIS.

A muslim is one who believes in Allah as his lord and Muhammed as the final messenger (to all of mankind). the Quran (actual word of Allah) and Sunnah (traditions of Muhammad) has been preserved. The prophet said to follow his sunnah and the sunnah of the 4 rightly guided khalifah (caliphs).

Belief comprises acceptance and submission. Those who change/innovate/reject/disbelieve in the knowledge that has been preserved will be in for a rude awakening on that day.

The Shia reject the caliphs except 'Ali, therefore, they should not be classified as muslims. They invented their own religion just like christianity was re-invented and very little a semblance exists of the actual religion taught by Jesus. The end result is association in worship of Allah. When this occurs, none of that worship reaches Allah (GOD).

Belief is in the heart and Allah is the Knower and Judge of all affairs...."There is no compulsion in religion. The RIGHT PATH has been made DISTINCT from the WRONG PATH."