The Religion Discussion

[desifemlove]

jus a random thought/question here...

Why is it many in de country say we must "keep God in our governance?" And not jus dis gay rights ting, but about tackling corruption, welfare provision, etc?

Does this mean we must not have a separation of church of state? And which "God" should we base we governance on? God of the Old Testament? Jesus? Allah? Shiva? Rama? Who? Where it say in the Bible that God must be central in governance (I say Bible as I used to be a Christian)? Even the Quran doh say governance MUST be based on Quranic principles, ent (many Muslims aren't Islamists)?

Just curious, since I wanna know the basis for saying we must be a theocracy..

[nareshseep]

jus a random thought/question here...

Why is it many in de country say we must "keep God in our governance?" And not jus dis gay rights ting, but about tackling corruption, welfare provision, etc?

Does this mean we must not have a separation of church of state? And which "God" should we base we governance on? God of the Old Testament? Jesus? Allah? Shiva? Rama? Who? Where it say in the Bible that God must be central in governance (I say Bible as I used to be a Christian)? Even the Quran doh say governance MUST be based on Quranic principles, ent (many Muslims aren't Islamists)?

Just curious, since I wanna know the basis for saying we must be a theocracy..

Which religuous group has the most holidays on this island?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Even the Quran doh say governance MUST be based on Quranic principles, ent (many Muslims aren't Islamists)?

Just curious, since I wanna know the basis for saying we must be a theocracy..

Take a read here: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law

"Sharia law (Arabic: شريعة) is the body of Islamic law. The term means "way" or "path"; it is the legal framework within which the public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Islam.

Sharia deals with all aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, and social issues.

There is not a strictly codified uniform set of laws that can be called Sharia. It is more like a system of several laws, based on the Qur'an, Hadith and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent."

[AdamB]

Even the Quran doh say governance MUST be based on Quranic principles, ent (many Muslims aren't Islamists)?

Just curious, since I wanna know the basis for saying we must be a theocracy..

Take a read here: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law

[i]"Sharia law (Arabic: شريعة) is the body of Islamic law. The term means "way" or "path"; it is the legal framework within which the public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Islam.

Sharia deals with all aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, and social issues.

There is not a strictly codified uniform set of laws that can be called Sharia. It is more like a system of several laws, based on the Qur'an, Hadith and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent."[/i]

Four sources:
1. Quran
2. Sunnah / hadith
3. Ijma" - consensus of the scholars
4. Qiyas - analogy.

[RBphoto]

Have not been back to this thread in a while. We decided which god is the most stupid as yet?

[MG Man]

nope....lots of nominees for religious asshat tho

[RBphoto]

But I would like to put forward.. in a cage fight, Hanuman will ground and pound Jesus to a pulp and make Allah tap out like a sissy girl.

[bluefete]

Again. Just like everything else. It seems that the interpretation was made after the discovery.

I have always maintained that the earth was created before all the other planets including the sun.

Bear with me now and follow the logical sequence of the creation.

Genesis 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

On the first day, the earth was already created. It was not until the fourth day, that the sun, moon and stars were created.

Now take a read below:

Is Mercury an alien planet? Volcanic past suggests closest world to the sun first formed OUTSIDE the solar system


By Ellie Zolfagharifard

Published: 11:48 GMT, 8 April 2014 | Updated: 12:42 GMT, 8 April 2014

Mercury’s strange past has always been something of a mystery to scientists.

While the planet appears geologically dead today, astronomers believe it had a violent volcanic history.

Now a U.S. group has linked this turbulent past to a theory that the planet formed further out in the solar system and later migrated in.

2011 data from Nasa's Messenger probe revealed that Mercury had a violent, volcanic past.


Pictured is a topographic map of Mercury constructed from data taken by the Messenger probe. The colours indicate elevation, with purple indicating low-lying regions and red meaning higher elevations

Up until 2008, astronomers believed that any volatile compounds on Mercury would have evaporated when it formed 4.5 billion years ago.

But six years ago, Nasa’s Messenger probe found volcanic ash deposits and tell-tale vents in the ground.

The pictures showed that Mercury seemed to have smooth, rimless depressions that were not produced by meteor impacts.


Lava-flooded craters and large expanses of smooth volcanic plains are shown here on Mercury's surface. While the planet appears geologically dead today, astronomers believe it had a violent volcanic history

They were surrounded by reddish material, believed to have been left by pyroclastic flows suggesting that the depressions were volcanic vents.

Timothy Goudge of Brown University in Rhode Island has now taken a closer look at high resolution images captured when the probe began orbiting Mercury in 2011.

His team looked at 51 deposits and their source vents and found that some were more eroded than others, according to a report by Jacob Aron in New Scientist.

This, said Professor Goudge, suggests that they could not have all formed at the same time.

The team also found that most of the vents were inside impact craters that can be dated between 3.5 and 1 billion years ago, not just after Mercury formed.

David Rothery of the Open University, who was not involved in the study, told New Scientist that the results suggest the possibility that Mercury formed further out and migrated in.

This contradicts the view that a large impact early in Mercury’s history may have destroyed most of its outer layers.


The latest theory contradicts the view that a large impact early in Mercury's history may have destroyed most of its outer layers

BepiColombo, a joint mission between Europe and Japan, is due to launch in 2016 and reach Mercury in 2024.

Researchers hope the mission will help shed more light on the mysterious origin and evolution of a planet close to the parent star.

MERCURY: THE MYSTERY PLANET

For all its bland 'dead' appearance, Mercury is a very interesting place

It is the smallest planet in our solar system - only slightly larger than the Earth's moon.

On its sunward half, the planet sizzles at a temperature of 510°C (950°CF while its night side maintains –210°C (–346°F).

It is the closest planet to the sun at a distance of about 36 million miles (58 million km) or 0.39 AU.

Mercury has a solid iron core that measures more than half the planet's diameter. Earth, by contrast, has a solid core that's just 9.5 per cent of its overall girth.

One day on Mercury takes 59 Earth days. Mercury makes a complete orbit around the sun (a year in Mercury time) in just 88 Earth days.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z2z4jtOsRQ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



Now if the earth was created first and everything else after, why is it so difficult to believe that Mercury could have been captured by the sun's gravity and pulled inward?

Scientists say that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. And the universe is 13.7 billion years old. What if the scientists are wrong and the earth is much much older than that?

Scientists also say that the sun is also around 4.5 billion years old. If so, that contradicts the creation account of the sun and the earth.

Did you also notice the timeline for the age of Mercury? Also 4.5 billion years!! So our entire solar system formed at the same time??? Does that make evolutionary sense?

Think about it. The Bible gives the relevant overview and leaves it up to the scientists to discover the details. But if the scientists ignore the Biblical details, they will always get it wrong in the long run.

[RBphoto]

Did you also notice the timeline for the age of Mercury? Also 4.5 billion years!! So our entire solar system formed at the same time??? Does that make evolutionary sense?

Yes it does. And the only reason Hanuman cannot crucify Jesus is because he is not Jewish.

[bluefete]

Did you also notice the timeline for the age of Mercury? Also 4.5 billion years!! So our entire solar system formed at the same time??? Does that make evolutionary sense?

Yes it does (No!! It does NOT!). And the only reason Hanuman cannot crucify Jesus is because he is not Jewish.

Who Jesus or Hanuman??????

[kevin5211]

But I would like to put forward.. in a cage fight, Hanuman will ground and pound Jesus to a pulp and make Allah tap out like a sissy girl.

hanuman ftw. imagine hanuman hittin jesus a " you cant see me".

[Slartibartfast]

On the first day, the earth was already created. It was not until the fourth day, that the sun, moon and stars were created.

Assuming this is true, why did it take a whole day to create the earth alone and then one day to create everything else. All of the stars, planets, galaxies created in the same amount of time it took to make earth. Was God just a fast learner.

The Bible gives the relevant overview and leaves it up to the scientists to discover the details. But if the scientists ignore the Biblical details,

This is not true. According to the Bible, the earth came before light (see your quoted text above). According to science, this is wrong by about 9 billion years. Light came first.

So our entire solar system formed at the same time???

On an astronomical time scale, yes. On the time scale we are accustomed to using, no. Let me explain.

Let's say you are standing in Macoya. You could say town is the same distance away from you as Arima. Let's say they are both 15km away and take 1hr to reach either of them from Macoya.

Now, are they really the same distance away? When measured in km, yes. When measured in m or mm, no.

Now I'll assume you meant that you thought the whole solar system was created in the same year. That's an accuracy of 1x10^9 greater than what was quoted. I'm other words it's like trying to compare the distances between town and Arima to within an accuracy of 1μm (1/1000mm)

Would you expect the distances to be equal? Of course not. You will have a hard time even getting a reliable measurement to fit within that accuracy. In fact, that is why km is used.

Just like the creation of the solar system. It's measured in billions of years because that's the easiest comparable unit plus the limitations of science only allow the age to be measured to within a certain degree of accuracy.

I encourage you to look up the creation of the solar system according to science. You will see that the time scale was actually hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions of years. However a million years is still a blink of an eye compared to the life time of the solar system.

If you still don't understand just let me know what you want cleared up about the explanation.

[Slartibartfast]

Before I forget, here are some of the inconsistencies I was talking about.

Bear with me now and follow the logical sequence of the creation.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light..

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Where did this light come from? It can't be interpreted as the big bang because according to the Bible, the earth was already created.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Again, everything else in the universe created in one day? Btw, how long was one day if the sun wasn't created as yet.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

I'm confused, if he made the stars on the same night as the sun and moon, what lights did he create on the previous night? Also the moon is not a light anymore than the earth is. It creates no light of own.

Here is what logic really dictates. Science did not ignore the Bible. Science has observed that there is no way that the Bible could be right. The Bible does not give the outline for science to later discover. The only thing science discovered was that the Bible was wrong. As shown by your own quotation, the Bible gets it wrong from the first page (not counting the table of contents)

[RBphoto]

Did you also notice the timeline for the age of Mercury? Also 4.5 billion years!! So our entire solar system formed at the same time??? Does that make evolutionary sense?

Yes it does (No!! It does NOT!). And the only reason Hanuman cannot crucify Jesus is because he is not Jewish.

Prove it.

[Chimera]

I see some people on my facebook feed attributing the eclipse to Allah and saying you must pray from the beginning of the eclipse to the end of the eclipse so as not to offend allah.

adam...you do that?

[RBphoto]

I see some people on my facebook feed attributing the eclipse to Allah and saying you must pray from the beginning of the eclipse to the end of the eclipse so as not to offend allah.

adam...you do that?

Tell them that is Bida as it is not mentioned in the Quoran and watch the sparks fly.

[meccalli]

Pre islam arabs loved their moon idols, what do you expect. The symbolism and customs in islam show it pretty clearly of their affinity for heavenly objects and bodies.

[RBphoto]

Pre islam arabs loved their moon idols, what do you expect. The symbolism and customs in islam show it pretty clearly of their affinity for heavenly objects and bodies.

Not only moon, they loved many deities, but apparently Mohammed was a moon man.

[kevin5211]

This according to my form one history teacher mr ali. He insisted that the Americans were not the first men to go to the moon but in fact muslims from ancient times

[nareshseep]

This according to my form one history teacher mr ali. He insisted that the Americans were not the first men to go to the moon but in fact muslims from ancient times

This is true as well as Santa Claus

[bluefete]

On the first day, the earth was already created. It was not until the fourth day, that the sun, moon and stars were created.

Assuming this is true, why did it take a whole day to create the earth alone and then one day to create everything else. All of the stars, planets, galaxies created in the same amount of time it took to make earth. Was God just a fast learner.

(I just realized that the timeline is uncanny. And from your own words. Looking at the age of the solar system, even including the earth, our solar system was made at the same time. The sun, earth, mercury, mars all carry the same age - about 4.5 billion years. One day with God is as 1,000 years or 1 billion years, maybe?)

The Bible gives the relevant overview and leaves it up to the scientists to discover the details. But if the scientists ignore the Biblical details,

This is not true. According to the Bible, the earth came before light (see your quoted text above). According to science, this is wrong by about 9 billion years. Light came first.

(Again, you are correct. Light did come first and this light came from the Spirit of God - Genesis 1:2)

So our entire solar system formed at the same time???

On an astronomical time scale, yes. On the time scale we are accustomed to using, no. Let me explain.

Let's say you are standing in Macoya. You could say town is the same distance away from you as Arima. Let's say they are both 15km away and take 1hr to reach either of them from Macoya.

Now, are they really the same distance away? When measured in km, yes. When measured in m or mm, no.

Now I'll assume you meant that you thought the whole solar system was created in the same year. That's an accuracy of 1x10^9 greater than what was quoted. I'm other words it's like trying to compare the distances between town and Arima to within an accuracy of 1μm (1/1000mm)

Would you expect the distances to be equal? Of course not. You will have a hard time even getting a reliable measurement to fit within that accuracy. In fact, that is why km is used.

Just like the creation of the solar system. It's measured in billions of years because that's the easiest comparable unit plus the limitations of science only allow the age to be measured to within a certain degree of accuracy.

I encourage you to look up the creation of the solar system according to science. You will see that the time scale was actually hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions of years. However a million years is still a blink of an eye compared to the life time of the solar system.

(It is amazing how your arguments fully support what the Bible says. If I move beyond the literal 6 days of creation and take it into the realm of science i.e. billions of years, then what the scientists say fully lines up with the creation account.

If you still don't understand just let me know what you want cleared up about the explanation.

[bluefete]

Before I forget, here are some of the inconsistencies I was talking about.

Bear with me now and follow the logical sequence of the creation.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light..

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Where did this light come from(This light came from God's Spirit - Genesis 1:2)? It can't be interpreted as the big bang because according to the Bible, the earth was already created.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Again, everything else in the universe created in one day? Btw, how long was one day if the sun wasn't created as yet.

(Good question. Simple answer - we do not know. variable answer - 24 hrs, 1 year, 1,000 years, 1 billion years?)

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

I'm confused, if he made the stars on the same night as the sun and moon, what lights did he create on the previous night? Also the moon is not a light anymore than the earth is. It creates no light of own

(That is why the moon is called the lesser light. You are nitpicking here. You fully well know that the moon reflects light. Does that make the biblical account wrong?.

Here is what logic really dictates. Science did not ignore the Bible. Science has observed that there is no way that the Bible could be right Illogical fallacy.. The Bible does not give the outline for science to later discover

(Black holes were mentioned in the bible thousands of years before they were discovered. 'Outer darkness".

The only thing science discovered was that the Bible was wrong. As shown by your own quotation, the Bible gets it wrong from the first page (not counting the table of contents)

The first page is quite correct.

[bluefete]

Mark 13:27 - And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Taking your prior point about the location of heaven being restricted only to the sky that covers the earth, do you think that the uttermost part of heaven only means the sky?

I think this means that, in time, people will traverse the vast reaches of outer space. Here we have something given to us in which we are only at the very beginning.

But of course, after we are long dead, and time travel / warp drive becomes a reality, we might even reach that earth-like planet whose discovery NASA announced yesterday.

http://rt.com/usa/nasa-kepler-planet-ha ... -zone-256/

Even then, scientists would not want to give God credit.

[maj. tom]

You can give God all the credit you want for anything that man discovers. Since God is as real as Pooh Bear's jockey shorts, everyone is cool with it.

I know "God did it" to you and millions of other people in the world, but there is no way that the people working all their lives to make a difference to humanity can possibly care. All that matters to them (and us) is that we make life better everyday, for every generation, and solve problems that God just doesn't seem to care about but yet causes so much pain and suffering among mankind.

And there are lots of people who are doing science who need God to be in their lives. So that's good if it's an inspiration of faith to them in their work.

[Slartibartfast]

One day with God is as 1,000 years or 1 billion years, maybe?

Again, everything else in the universe created in one day? Btw, how long was one day if the sun wasn't created as yet.

(Good question. Simple answer - we do not know. variable answer - 24 hrs, 1 year, 1,000 years, 1 billion years?

Precisely what I was talking about. In bible talk, 1 day could literally mean any expanse of time. If something I say can mean anything then it means nothing. Don't you agree?*

The language used in science is always extremely precise to prevent misunderstanding.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Light did come first and this light came from the Spirit of God - Genesis 1:2

Which one was it? Do you agree that at least one of these versus must be wrong (they say the opposite to eachother)

It is amazing how your arguments fully support what the Bible says. If I move beyond the literal 6 days of creation and take it into the realm of science i.e. billions of years, then what the scientists say fully lines up with the creation account.

Ok, you will have to break this one down for me if you can. I admit I don't understand how science prove the bible. Also, notice that everything written in science is literal for a reason.

This light came from God's Spirit - Genesis 1:2

Uhhh... I guess this is one of those things taken fully on faith without any proof or evidence?
If Yes - See Carl Sagan's argument about the dragon in his garage to see why I will not bother trying to refute this even though I believe it to be completely false
If No - Please direct me to some evidence

(That is why the moon is called the lesser light. You are nitpicking here. You fully well know that the moon reflects light. Does that make the biblical account wrong?.

Yes, yes it does. Something that reflects light cannot be counted as a light. This would mean that at night, all of my walls in my house become lights. This would also mean that from the moon, the earth is a light. So to call the moon a light is to call all visible objects lights. That's not me nitpicking, that is you grabbing a straws.

(Black holes were mentioned in the bible thousands of years before they were discovered. 'Outer darkness".

I'm going to need some context for this. If something as specific as "1 day" can mean "any expanse of time" how can something as vague as "outer darkness" mean something as specific as "a region of spacetime from which gravity prevents anything, including light, from escaping"

Note the difference in language used. If both were read completely out of context 2000 years from now, by someone with no prior knowledge of either, which one would be more likely to properly interpreted/understood.

Mark 13:27 - And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

I'm guessing, just like everything else, this can mean almost anything. What does the uttermost part of the earth mean? Which four winds is he going gather his elect from? Will he literally send angels from heaven... I mean space (maybe not the uttermost part) to gather his elect from these four winds mentioned? Please explain the full passage before making an assertion. This seems to be more gibberish than anything else to me. (Don't take that as an insult, vector calculus also seemed more like gibberish than maths to me the first time I came across it)


* Simple Example of something meaning nothing because it means everything- Suppose you ask me if I like talking to you and I reply "Yes I like talking to you but when I say like it could mean any degree of like ranging from "not at all" to "absolutely love"". Then, by meaning everything with my answer, my answer means nothing. You still have no idea how much I like talking to you or if I like talking to you at all

[Slartibartfast]

I just want to take a moment to look back at page 587 where you quoted from the book of Enoch. I didn't realise I ignored that post. You were trying to prove that the bible laid out the broad framework for scientists to discover. Now take a moment to go back and read those versus from Enoch that you quoted. In science we call those "observations". All of the verses are just the writer stating observations of the world around him, prefaced with the statement "Behold ye".

Observation is one of the first parts of the scientific process. It's sad that the writer did not continue the process by formulating and testing theories against these observations. If he did then he could use his observations to prove his theories and then maybe you can say they writer made a discovery. But he immediately attributed these things to God which has nothing to do with them, according to science.

An example of this is the kinetic theory of heat. It was observed that objects got bigger when they were heated. Scientists believed that this was because the object absorbed a substance called "caloric". This has been proven false. The kinetic theory of heat (which is the preferred theory among the scientific community) is not attributed to the scientist that made the original observation but to the one that came up with the final theory to fit it.

Also you still have not answered my two questions

1) What scientific discovery* was taught through interpretations of the bible BEFORE it was discovered by science.
2) When is the last 1000 years has the any religious book, any religion or God done something to advance society, our understanding of the world around us in a way that science could not

*Scientific discovery can be taken to mean any verifiable fact that concerns any of the sciences

[ruffneck_12]

Satan is the one true god

[de_dougla_smurf]

This according to my form one history teacher mr ali. He insisted that the Americans were not the first men to go to the moon but in fact muslims from ancient times

This plus gundam wing avatar means you went SBC La Romaine ent?

[kevin5211]

hahahaha guess u went dey too right. and d avatar is teknoman not gundam wing.

[de_dougla_smurf]

Using tapatalk so that img is about 10x10 pixels.