The Religion Discussion

[janfar]

We can always trust a god who sends his word in the form of a book which we can pick and choose what we need.

[stev]

Did you ever wonder why these "Scientific interpretations" of the bible are always found out after scientists discover what is going on. It's funny that the bible's writings are not taught (literally like science) but it's interpretations are taught as fact. But these interpretations come after the discoveries of man. It's as though the teachings of the bible are inspired by man (even if the writing was inspired by God).

Bluefete can you show evidence to the contrary or explain how the teachings of the bible caters to this fact?

this is something i noticed a while now but never get the time to debate it here....it's like the Bible conveniently adapts to every discovery...probably the vagueness of whats in there.

[bluefete]

Did you ever wonder why these "Scientific interpretations" of the bible are always found out after scientists discover what is going on. It's funny that the bible's writings are not taught (literally like science) but it's interpretations are taught as fact. But these interpretations come after the discoveries of man. It's as though the teachings of the bible are inspired by man (even if the writing was inspired by God).

Bluefete can you show evidence to the contrary or explain how the teachings of the bible caters to this fact?

Which came first? The science or the Bible?

You used a good word 'interpretation". That is the major cause of mankind's problems. Someone stated earlier that the Church suppressed a lot of stuff in times past. That is true. Its mandate was to spread the word and keep the people in ignorance at the same time. Even Galileo was persecuted by the Church.

The Bible is a collection of books written over time. The Psalms and the Book of Job were written long before men understood the order of things and space and time. Do you know what it meant for Newton to discover the laws of gravity and of orbiting bodies?

It is not true to say though that Bible fits science. It is the other way around.

Questions were asked of Job as to whether he understood the order of the heavens and the timing of the seasons. This was years before we knew about gravity and orbital mechanics and so on.

[bluefete]

Isaac newton was one of the greatest scientists of all time.

How do you account for his profound belief in God?????

"Isaac Newton, in his famous scientific work, Principia, stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being."

Take a read:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... bible.html

[maj. tom]

and are you still living in the 17th century?

[bluefete]

and are you still living in the 17th century?

Well, I still have records that I play????????????

[maj. tom]

wut? Netwon lived in the 17th century. What does that have to do with vinyl or shellac?

[janfar]

Isaac Newton lived in a time where non belief would mean certain death. Isaac Newton was what he was in his time.

Charles Darwin was also an orthodox christian with aspirations to become a clergyman before he came up with the theory of evolution.

[meccalli]

Atheism was there for a long time, starting in greece with the greater philosophers in the and then sparked again with the Renaissance. Published work like man a machine was put out in 1748 as well as a number of writings before that like David Hume. Darwin, was sent to clergy school by his father because of his neglect of med school, he wanted nothing to do with either.-rather, natural history.

[Slartibartfast]

Isaac newton was one of the greatest scientists of all time.

How do you account for his profound belief in God?????

"Isaac Newton, in his famous scientific work, Principia, stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being."

Take a read:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... bible.html

Yes Isaac Newton pretty cool. My second favourite scientist of all time. Now if you look at his book you will see that it is held in very high regards and (just like all science) the parts that were proven to be true are still taught to this day in schools and universities. You will also note that in maths class you are never taught that "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being." because this statement has been disproved.

Now about all of webpage (yes I read it all), answer me this. Point out all of the instances where that particular interpretation for the scripture came about BEFORE it was proven by science.

Yes the text in the bible has been there for longer because it is never updated. But the teachings of science have been around longer than the teachings of the bible. So just to re-iterate, you now have two questions yet to be answered

1) What scientific discovery* was taught through interpretations of the bible BEFORE it was discovered by science.
2) When is the last 1000 years has the any religious book, any religion or God done something to advance society, our understanding of the world around us in a way that science could not

*Scientific discovery can be taken to mean any verifyable fact that concerns any of the sciences

[3stagevtec]

[nareshseep]

[bluefete]

Now about all of webpage (yes I read it all), answer me this. Point out all of the instances where that particular interpretation for the scripture came about BEFORE it was proven by science.

Yes the text in the bible has been there for longer because it is never updated. But the teachings of science have been around longer than the teachings of the bible. So just to re-iterate, you now have two questions yet to be answered

1) What scientific discovery* was taught through interpretations of the bible BEFORE it was discovered by science.
2) When is the last 1000 years has the any religious book, any religion or God done something to advance society, our understanding of the world around us in a way that science could not

*Scientific discovery can be taken to mean any verifyable fact that concerns any of the sciences

Quickly passing through. read the article in the link below.

Student Thomas Morris, 22, from Chelmsford, said: 'You don’t think of the Bible necessarily as a scientifically accurate source of information, so I guess we were quite surprised when we discovered it would work.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z2xrqyogKo
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[Slartibartfast]

So many things wrong here. I'll try to keep it simple and go in order of least significant to most significant problem.

1. Daily mail is one of the worst news sources. They have been shown to make up their own stories sometimes. But let's assume this one is true.

2. The article says they are 4th year masters students at age 22. Allowing 3 years for a first degree (which normally takes 4 outside of T&T) that means they started university at age 16.

3. Note that the purpose of this is to give experience in publishing and peer reviewing so the content is of secondary importance to the process they are learning.

But ignoring all of that let's get to the real issues.

4. They proved the ark will float with that many sheep on board. This is the easiest thing to prove as it only required the use of Archimedes principle (upthrust=weight of displaced fluid). My form 4 students can do this with their eyes closed.

5. They mentioned they do not know how the animals will fit. Live sheep don't stack very well (I never tried though so don't take my word for it).

Nothing is mentioned of the other (even bigger) problems. Like

6. would the ark be able to store enough food for all the animals for 40 days (I guess Noah fished and Jesus multiplied)

7. how did Noah cater for all of the different diets of the various animals (eg. Cats need a diet rich in tourine i.e. The active ingredient in red bull). But Jesus fasted for 40 days so I guess the animals could as well

8. how did Noah stop the animals from killing each other (let me guess... enter Jesus stage right)

9. which leads me to my last and most important question. How did he get all the animals to come to the srk anyway (and why the f@ck did he let mosquitoes sneak on)?

10. one word... kangaroos. Let's say Jesus led the kangaroos to the ark. That means they had to swim across the ocean (which I doubt they could). And if they could do that they would not do it anyway. Treading water for 40 days might be easier than swimming across the ocean. Of course that is ridiculous. So how did they survive? Cuz they didn't evolve after the fact

11. You still didn't answer my previous question.

12. Both of the previous questions

[DFC]

Daily mail is the new bible.

[MG Man]

question for the christians and muslims who use 'scientific evidence' from their holy books to 'prove' their stuff is true:
If that's the case, then surely hindu scriptures would indicate hinduism overwrites both islam and christianity....after all, the gita, mahabarata etc. and tons of hindu scriptures refer to the nature of the universe, the existence of the solar system, the big bang, galaxies, life on other worlds etc, and all of this thousands of years before the bible and koran............

so based on adamb and blue's logic, they should both be hindu, since that religion has waaaay more scientific roots than the other two

discuss

[meccalli]

Dunno bout adamb and bluefete, but i hold to scripture where God gives moses all that is necessary for his people to know, no more. If you read the accounts related in Jude, Genesis and Ezekiel in older rabbinic apocrypha. You'll see that 'secret wisdom' was taught in the antedeluvian period by the original nephal angels and after that with further incursions. If you were to trace it, you find extreme similarities in the kabbalah, zohar with ancient indian texts. Things like weaponry, mixing of species, astrology, medicine, magic and even makeup and 'anti conceptive methods'-herbs, mixtures. The bible groups those individuals as great men of old. You also notice a pattern of similarities between the religions of antiquity with a triune head, divine sons forming connections with the divinites- leading to superhumans, dityas, giants and ancient knowledge being bestowed to man. In the bible, God tells his people, do not learn the way of the pagans and do not be inclined to worship in their ways, and their God's, in fact not even mentioning their names- but that came out of later kingdoms like babylon. The angelic based religions lingered in india and areas surrounding mt,hermon.

Since you mention hinduism, there was an account at the tower of babel as one of the punishments for the specific idol worshippers who wanted to replace God in heaven were caused to take on appearances of apes and elephants- go figure, not gospel but uncanny.

[MG Man]

the old testament talks about blood sacrifice, yet frowns on pagans and their rituals
the babel story is a weak attempt at trying to explain racial and social differences

[Slartibartfast]

... i hold to scripture where God gives moses all that is necessary for his people to know, no more.

A very a/hole thing to do in some cases. If I was God I would have showed Moses how to get out of the desert. Because after escaping I think you guys will need to know how to get out of the desert.

If you read the accounts related in Jude, Genesis and Ezekiel in older rabbinic apocrypha. You'll see that 'secret wisdom' was taught in the antedeluvian period by the original nephal angels and after that with further incursions. If you were to trace it, you find extreme similarities in the kabbalah, zohar with ancient indian texts. Things like weaponry, mixing of species, astrology, medicine, magic and even makeup and 'anti conceptive methods'-herbs, mixtures. The bible groups those individuals as great men of old. You also notice a pattern of similarities between the religions of antiquity with a triune head, divine sons forming connections with the divinites- leading to superhumans, dityas, giants and ancient knowledge being bestowed to man.

Isn't it more likely that this could be attributed to plagiarism and/or the fact that Humans have a lot in common, psychologically speaking, despite cultural and physical differences as opposed to this being intervention from God (or whatever you were trying to imply)

In the bible, God tells his people, do not learn the way of the pagans and do not be inclined to worship in their ways, and their God's, in fact not even mentioning their names- but that came out of later kingdoms like babylon. The angelic based religions lingered in india and areas surrounding mt,hermon.

Since you mention hinduism, there was an account at the tower of babel as one of the punishments for the specific idol worshippers who wanted to replace God in heaven were caused to take on appearances of apes and elephants- go figure, not gospel but uncanny.

... huh? This isn't meant to be taken literally right?

BTW bluefete don't think I forgot you. It's cool if you want to agree that article you posted was bull$h!t. But you still have to answer those two questions. If religion is as significant as you say it is then those questions should be easy to answer.

[meccalli]

The actual crossing of the red sea is even more amazing when you realise how wonderfully well God guided his people. Pharaoh knew he had them- they went down, of all places to go... a one way, cliff steeped, death trap on a patch of beach cut off by mountains and the sea- chariots blazing behind them.Ex. relates Pharaoh's thinking 'entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in'. Then you realise that a rift runs the entire length steeped in the red sea all the way to ethiopia. How could they cross? So happens there's nice, gently sloping underwater bridge that runs on that exact patch of beach all the way to the other side. Then an archaeologist from the karolinska institute, sends down dive cams and they find coral encrusted structures matching chariot wheels and apparel matching the time period. Its also funny that suspected pharaoh thom of the el arish stone, according to egyptology, died fighting divinity in the place of the whirlpool.

It's not plagiarism if these people share so much in common that originated around the same time period while separated by vast spaces of land and bodies of water. It's also why God of the bible never associates himself with any true name, images, heavenly body or symbols, in contrast to what christians' do today but we have constantine and ignorance to thank for that. And yes, according to Jasher, its literal lol, but its a reference book for me that i use for comparisons.

[Altec55]

Hey Everyone, trying to join in on the discussions but don't know if i can keep up with the amount of things everyone posts! lol

the old testament talks about blood sacrifice, yet frowns on pagans and their rituals

The Old Testament spoke of blood sacrifices for atonement of sins. Jesus died on the cross as the final and ultimate sacrifice for sin. This is why now we live in the period of "grace"

the babel story is a weak attempt at trying to explain racial and social differences

I don't think the babel story is meant to explain racial and social differences. From what i know, it shows why different languages exist. i.e. everyone spoke one language before this.

[bluefete]

Slartibartfast: I have not ignored your questions. Since you made the point that the Bible may have been plagiarised from Hinduism and other earlier texts, I will have to do some research. In the meantime consider this and tell me whether the other books come even close. I have repeatedly said that God left it up to scientists to discover the nitty gritty for themselves. He just gave us the big picture.

How is it that after "billions of years" if you believe the scientists, we are only now discovering the existence of water "above the firmament", i.e. in outer space?

Genesis 1:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Watery ocean discovered within small moon of Saturn

By Jacob Kastrenakes on April 3, 2014 02:00 pm Email @jake_k

On a small moon of Saturn, hidden beneath nearly 25 miles of ice, researchers say they have identified an underground ocean of water that's at least as large as Lake Superior, the largest of North America's Great Lakes. The ocean was found at the south pole of Enceladus, a tiny moon about as wide as Arizona, putting the moon among the ranks of Saturn's Titan and Jupiter's Europa, which are also believed to hold oceans of water beneath frozen ice.

""These are among the most interesting objects from the point of view of astrobiology.""



The research was led by Luciano Iess from the Sapienza University of Rome and was based on data from NASA's Cassini spacecraft, which has been floating among Saturn's moons for a decade now. Interest has grown around Enceladus since 2005, when researchers detected plumes of water vapor ejecting from long fractures in its surface known as tiger stripes. "This moon was believed to be geologically inactive — essentially a dead body," Iess tells The Verge. "The fact that there are these geysers which eject more than a hundred kilometers over the surface was surprising."



Iess and his colleagues determined the presence of liquid water while looking into a gravity anomaly around Enceladus' south pole. The team noticed that there was not enough mass at the surface to account for the gravity they were detecting — some mass appeared to be missing — so they knew that something denser must also be present. Because liquid water is denser than ice, its presence is able to explain and correct the measured anomaly. The results are being published today in the journal Science.

Researchers found that the ocean of water is about 5 miles deep and extends at least from Enceladus' south pole to around half way to its equator. It may actually go farther than that — potentially even reaching the equator — though they can't say either way. They also can't say whether this ocean is what feeds the plumes of mineral-rich water vapor coming out of the tiger stripes on Enceladus' surface, though it's certainly a possibility that the fractures reach low enough for the vapor to come from water escaping the ocean.

While above the ocean is miles and miles of water leading up to an inhospitable surface as cold as nearly minus 300 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 180 degrees Celsius), beneath the ocean is a rock core, and that mixture of water and rock creates a much more intriguing setting. After Europa, Enceladus is the second body in the solar system that we've discovered to have rock and water in contact. "These are among the most interesting objects from the point of view of astrobiology," Iess says.

Placing water in contact with rock creates the potential for "rather rich chemistry," as Iess puts it, creating more potential that the ocean floor is an environment that's conducive to bringing about basic forms of life. There is, of course, no way to say what's down there, and the researchers aren't speculating. Nonetheless, Cassini's project scientist, Linda Spilker, highlights why this potential is so intriguing: "Material from Enceladus’ south polar jets contains salty water and organic molecules," she says in a statement, "the basic chemical ingredients for life."



This has all been an unexpected turn for Enceladus, which at the beginning on Cassini's mission was seen as an uninteresting subject. Cassini's mission was supposed to end in 2008, but it's been extended since — first to 2010, and now until 2017. "When you go to visit a planet you have to make up time for unexpected findings and further investigations of these findings," Iess says. "Luckily, Cassini was extended and we had the opportunity to dig a little bit deeper into the interior structure of the body."

http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/3/557807 ... -enceladus

[meccalli]

the old testament talks about blood sacrifice, yet frowns on pagans and their rituals
the babel story is a weak attempt at trying to explain racial and social differences

What did they sacrifice and for what reason? They slaughtered pigs, goats, people and babies. You should look at one of the later names for tammuz of babylon, mithra-our modern santa. and the baby masses they held. The pagans all fall into sun, moon, fertility and olden spirit worship. Examine the great religions, you'll see it. They sacrificed for the sake of their well being in terms of physical needs. The God of the bible calls for sacrifice as a result of spiritual recompense for sin against the spirit. Leviticus explains the phenomenon of blood; For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Yeshua's blood was not only for us, sin began in the other realm before adam.

[Slartibartfast]

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven

Again. Just like everything else. It seems that the interpretation was made after the discovery. Was there anyone that said "this passage here means that there is water in space" or "this passage here means that there is water on different planets" before it was suspected by scientists?

Besides, keep in mind that scientist always thought it highly probable to find water on another planet (though it was a surprise to find it on a planet in our solar system).

Also ask yourself "what is meant by firmament". It sounds a lot more like the book is talking about clouds as clouds are separated by "sky" and was directly observable back then. Was there any mention of clouds in that part of Genesis. If there was I will withdraw this last point.

[meccalli]

The word is raqia and i've always believed it to be space or just our atmosphere above water. Genesis only gives us the creation of earth and its supporting bodies. We aren't given an account of past events. Isaiah tells us in the new earth, past things will be forgotten as well. Regarding firmament/ raqia- ועוף יעופף על-הארץ על-פני רקיע השמים, And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. In context, thats what it is, the sky.

[Slartibartfast]

Then it sounds more like they were speaking of clouds. Space and sky are two extremely different things (surely fowl don't fly in space).

[MG Man]

[konartis]

lmao

[meccalli]

Another case of detective work, snipping pieces of information and being judge, jury and executioner. You should research what the Midianites did, and their plot with the Moabs against God's people. This was a recompense for the thousands of deaths of Israelites caused by the plague curse brought about by Midian's Baal peor as well as the falling away of the men that midianite women seduced to go after idols and commit adultery with them. According to the law, it was allowed for maidens to be taken, allowed to mourn, be educated in the way of the hebrew and either be taken for wives or grow up in servitude until they became of age for marriage.

The act of killing women and children were exceptions in war as found in Deut but God made sure for particular tribes because of their culture. The non virgins were killed as explained before for seduction and the male boys as a result of their hatred instilled by warring cultures to seek revenge for their fathers. Those virgins had to be taught, brought up, fed and found themselves back in the plan for Israel to enter the promised land and dwell, pretty lucky if you ask me considering their fathers sins. If you think israelite men were sex craved pedos, notice what they had to do immediately after war and the manner they needed to conduct themselves. There's alot more seemingly terrible acts in the OT than this that God commanded because was necessary.

[Slartibartfast]

There's alot more seemingly terrible acts in the OT than this that God commanded because was necessary.

Even today God still commands many terrible acts, but, non-believers label these God sanctioned commands as acts of terrorism.