The Religion Discussion

[AdamB]

Man use Bill Maher and science in consecutive sentences. Now that's comedy!!

[AdamB]

d spike wrote:
Red Fraction wrote:
18 Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:
19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Dspike can you with unbiased thinking explain the above please. I'd like to know what are your thoughts?
I note you use the KJV. When it comes to scholastic studying of scripture, I'm afraid this version with its archaic idiom and improper translations doesn't cut it at all. Anyone who swears by this version alone deserves whatever AdamB tells them regarding "tampered scripture"...

The Book of Isaiah is actually produced by at least three fellows, as the writing style changes, and the writing spans from the eighth century BC right into the sixth century BC. These verses are written by the "original" Isaiah, also called "Proto-Isaiah". They serve as part of his reference to the danger posed by the late eighth century expansion of Assyria into the Kingdom of Judah. They are part of his prophesy of judgment against God's people, which implies that their covenant with God cannot protect them when they have broken it by idolatry and other sins.
These six verses are from chapter five and are aimed at the sinful folk who have willingly loaded themselves with the burden of their transgressions. These folk challenge God brazenly, almost taunting Him to stick to His covenant and zap the enemy... all the while perverting moral standards and practicing injustice and bribery. They think they are wise enough to handle any situation and reject a humble dependence on God (a clear shot at Ahaz ) and clearly spend a lot of time boasting about their strength while liming at bars - though their only strength seems to be lifting glasses.

You need to look at the historical setting:
Assyria was the super-power at the time, and Judah had just refused to join Israel and Syria in a revolt against Assyria. These two countries then threatened invasion of Judah. Isaiah advised Judah's king, Ahaz, to seek God's protection, but Ahaz asked the Assyrians for protection instead, thus making Judah an Assyrian vassal. (Assyria later thrashed and trashed Israel.) Isaiah didn't approve of this belittling of his country, and proceeded to foretell the results of the error of kowtowing to goyim Assyrians.


Red Fraction wrote:
When I read it "Isaiah" 5 these words remind me of the world we are living in right now. But this was in isreals time. So why does it bear striking accracy to now.?
Simply because of the human condition - "All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", to quote Paul. Because of our love to err, we fall, repeatedly. Due to this, the errors of the past often repeat themselves. (Take this thread as an example. Do you know why it is so bloody long? Because people keep saying the same old things, bringing up the same old arguments over and over and over... and to just look back at what went before is so simple it is laughable. Some of us just quote ourselves ad nauseum to deal with the monotony of it all. ) History is full of Ahazes and Isaiahs... and to consider these ancient writings (whose focus is quite clear) as a specific modern prophecy is yet another foolish error that is oft repeated...

Look at what my pal Dspike had to say about your "fulfilled prophesies" of isaiah.

Also, as a side note...the references to improper translations and tampered scriptures.

[AdamB]

Habit7,
Concerning the use of WE and US in the Quran (and in English language in general): Is this evidence of the plurality of GOD (in person as you say)? See former post below.
ichiniisama99 wrote:
In harmony with that, Genesis 1:26 says:

"26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Who was God talking to?

I do not know too much about islam, but i understand from a co-worker who is a well aged muslim, that muslims only validate the old testament. Is that true?

Firstly, the use of the plural first person singular and plural. We is used in place of I when referring to oneself and others that include the writer or speaker like 4 below.
The point of evidence here is the WE used in holy books /sovereigns is called the ROYAL WE. Is not ALMIGHTY GOD THE HIGHEST OF SOVEREIGNS?

we
   [wee] Show IPA

plural pronoun, possessive our or ours, objective us.
1. nominative plural of I.

2. (used to denote oneself and another or others): We have two children. In this block we all own our own houses.

3. (used to denote people in general): the marvels of science that we take for granted.

4. (used to indicate a particular profession, nationality, political party, etc., that includes the speaker or writer): We in the medical profession have moral responsibilities.

5. Also called the royal we. (used by a sovereign, or by other high officials and dignitaries, in place of I in formal speech): We do not wear this crown without humility.

Secondly, it is incorrect for anyone to say that muslims validate the Old Testament and not the new testament or any other scripture. We can only affirm based on evidence from valid sources of Islam (Qur'aan and Hadith) that revelations or books were given to prophets mentioned specifically. Examples are the "scrolls" of Abraham, "Zaboor / psalms" of David, "Tawrat / book/s of old testament" given to Moses and "Injeel / Gospel" given to Jesus.

It is the muslim view that all of these revelations have been changed by man or not preserved sufficiently so that they convey the message that had originally been intended. Some accounts may be correct while some may be changed but we have no way of knowing which have been tampered with. So we neither affirm nor dismiss. We do not take them for guidance or to establish religious legal matters.

Your debate with Megadoc1 is firm evidence in favour of this view. You guys have argued based on what? Where's the original scriptures in the original languages in which they were revealed? Who still understands these languages fully so that you can say that mistakes of misinterpretation will not be made. The christian "scholars" whose job is to correct "mistakes" in the bible? Each one correcting the one before who corrected the WORD OF GOD?

Let good sense prevail, examine the evidence and the truth will be on the horizon.

[desifemlove]

If evolution is false, explain why all species have a proven common ancestor? why do many species have shared DNA traits? as for fossils turning up from nowhere, well fossil science is not exact. Is any science exact? Economics ent, but then does this invalidate the law of demand or monopolistic competition as concepts?

If evolution is false, then why did God make humans look like chimpanzees, share DNA, share basic anatomy/morphology, etc.

Or maybe Genesis is not absolute fact? Can it be proven as such?

-All species dont have a proven common ancestor.
-Sharing of DNA shows commonality of design, not descent (see quote lower).
-If the fossil record is not reliable then evolution falls on its face. Darwin said, "Lastly, looking not to any one time, but to all time, if my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking closely together all the species of the same group, must assuredly have existed; but the very process of natural selection constantly tends, as has been so often remarked, to exterminate the parent-forms and the intermediate links. Consequently evidence of their former existence could be found only amongst fossil remains which are preserved, as we shall attempt to show in a future chapter, in an extremely imperfect and intermittent record." 150 years later, the fossil record still doesnt show what darwin predicted.

Why stop at chimpanzees? Argue that our DNA are 90% cat, 80% cow, 75% mouse, 60% fruit fly and 50% banana

50% difference between man and banana equates to a lot

And if men getting scientific information from Bill Maher movies, check out Expelled:No Intelligence Allowed and see a converse side of the story.

er.. specific genetic markers prove a common ancestor. This is evident between humans, the great apes and all other mammals (nay vertebrates).

And yes, the fossil record is incomplete. So what? Bones can get destroyed, or be under many miles of rock. And? Evolution is fact, who can prove otherwise? Saying "oh, how come humans ent evolving then?" as many do is silly, since our physical environment has not changed radically since the end of the last Ice Age.

You still haven't answered why God gave us similarities in genetics and features to other species. for what purpose, and why did he need to?

[Chimera]

I was stuck in Egypt for 2 years watching nothing but dust and women wearing hijabs. Then my company saw it fit to send me on asignment in colombia.


Haleleujah...

I think God is the one who had you in the first position

the devil came and saved you in the 2nd one.

[Habit7]

Swing and a miss again Adamb...

I didnt base any argument on the pronouns "us" and "we." I referenced the Hebrew word for God "Elohim" which is in the plural and is used in Genesis 1:1. Thus the plural pronoun "us" is used subsequently.

Concerning Isaiah:

Question: "What is the Deutero-Isaiah theory? Was the Book of Isaiah written by multiple Isaiahs?"

Answer: Most Bible scholars are in agreement that Isaiah was the sole author of the book that bears his name. However, there are those “liberal” scholars who are skeptical about anything that points to supernatural inspiration of the Bible. In fact, they go so far as to explain the fulfilled prophecies in these books by re-dating them to after the events occurred! The theory of multiple Isaiahs is just another example of skepticism from those who want to call into question the Bible as God’s inspired Word.

This theory of “Deutero-Isaiah” (or second Isaiah) came about near the end of the eighteenth century. Supposedly, Isaiah himself wrote only the first 39 chapters, leaving one of his students to write the second part (chapters 40—66). This was done allegedly sometime after the Babylonian captivity started (after 586 BC). As such, this later date would explain explicit predictions of “Cyrus, King of Persia” in Isaiah 44:28—45:1.

The “Deutero-Isaiah” theory claims Isaiah chapters 40—55 contain no personal details of the prophet Isaiah as compared to Isaiah 1—39. The first section tells of numerous stories of Isaiah, especially his dealings with kings and others in Jerusalem. The theory goes on to say that the style and language of Isaiah 40—55 seem to be quite different from the earlier chapters. What is so interesting about this argument is that it is also promulgated by the authors who support one author for the book! One contention is that specific references to Cyrus began with the experiences of the exiles in Babylon. This last argument is supposedly the strongest. It claims the second part of the second part of Isaiah was written later because only a later date can explain the accuracy of the prophecy.

Again, most reputable Bible scholars reject the “Deutero-Isaiah” theory. Their conclusions include the similarity of writing styles in both sections, the consistent use of the same words throughout, and the familiarity of the author with Palestine, but not Babylon. Furthermore, Jewish tradition uniformly ascribes the entire book to Isaiah.

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain a complete scroll of Isaiah dated from the second century BC. The book is one unit with the end of chapter 39 and the beginning of chapter 40 in one continuous column of text. This demonstrates that the scribes who copied this scroll never doubted the singular unity of the book. Neither did the New Testament authors, nor the early church, as quotations from both sections are attributed only to Isaiah.

The book of Isaiah contains extensive and precise prophecies about the coming of the Messiah as well as the life and crucifixion of Christ. Briefly these include:

• The reign of Christ in the kingdom (Isaiah 2:3–5)
• The virgin birth of Christ (Isaiah 7:14)
• The reign of Christ (Isaiah 9:2, 7)
• Jesus’ rule over the world (Isaiah 9:4)
• Christ as a descendant of David (Isaiah 11:1, 10)
• Christ to be filled with the Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; 42:1)
• Christ to judge with righteousness (Isaiah 11:3–5; 42:1, 4)
• Christ to rule over the nations (Isaiah 11:10)
• Christ to be gentle to the weak (Isaiah 42:3)
• Christ to make possible the New Covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8)
• Christ to be a light to the Gentiles and to be worshiped by them (Isaiah 42:6; 49:6–7; 52:15)
• Christ to be rejected by Israel (Isaiah 49:7; 53:1–3)
• Christ to be obedient to God and subject to suffering (Isaiah 50:6; 53:7–8)
• Christ to be exalted (Isaiah 52:13; 53:12)
• Christ to restore Israel and judge the wicked (61:1-3).

Messianic prophecy is strong and important evidence for Jesus’ claims to be God. Isaiah’s writings were completed many centuries before Jesus Christ was born and yet are completely accurate. Remember, the Dead Sea Scrolls contained more than one complete scroll of this book composed well before the birth of Christ. And the book of Isaiah was included in the Septuagint (LXX), the earliest version of the Old Testament Scriptures, translated at least 300 years earlier.

But by far the strongest evidence that proves the unity of the book of Isaiah is that Jesus Himself quoted from both the beginning and the end of the book, attributing all of it to Isaiah.

1. Jesus quoting from Isaiah 29:13: “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men’” (Mark 7:6–7).

2. Jesus also referenced Isaiah 42:1–4 in Matthew 12:17: “This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah.”

3. Isaiah is also referenced in Matthew 8:16–17 by quoting Isaiah 53:4: “This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: ‘He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases.’”

Aside from the passages quoted by Jesus above, several other New Testament verses refer to the prophet Isaiah as been the sole author: Matthew 3:3 and Luke 3:4 (Isaiah 40:3); Romans 10:16, 20 (Isaiah 53:1; 65:1); John 12:38-41 (Isaiah 53:1; 6:10). But the fact that our Lord Jesus affirmed Isaiah’s authorship by quoting from both sections of the book and attributing them to Isaiah is proof enough of the entire book’s authorship. Those who reject the words of the Lord Himself will never be convinced by any other means.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Deutero-Isa ... z2lCdnMJnf

[Habit7]

er.. specific genetic markers prove a common ancestor. This is evident between humans, the great apes and all other mammals (nay vertebrates).

You said earlier "If evolution is false, explain why all species have a proven common ancestor?" Now you are limiting it to mammals, are you finish qualifying your statement or you need more time?

Evolution is fact, who can prove otherwise?

It is not a fact, it is the leading scientific theory of the origin of species. Your incorrect statement and intense faith in evolution is why many voices have to stand up and point out the large problems why it is not a fact and why it remains a theory.

You still haven't answered why God gave us similarities in genetics and features to other species. for what purpose, and why did he need to?

I could presume to answer but I don't see how it would bolster your prior statements?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Man use Bill Maher and science in consecutive sentences. Now that's comedy!!

he didnt say Bill Maher is a scientist. He said Bill Maher did a documentary on religion. He also said he couldnt believe people would reject evolution and science.

[VLDS]

Man use Bill Maher and science in consecutive sentences. Now that's comedy!!

he didnt say Bill Maher is a scientist. He said Bill Maher did a documentary on religion. He also said he couldnt believe people would reject evolution and science.

Thx man. Finally some sane person who can actually read.

You know, if we were objective about this. People who get cured of diseases, come to places of worship and promote that they were cured by divine touch and the ambiguous fainting after being touched by a screaming 'man of god' but they never consider the doctors that helped them.

If this screaming and fainting works so well why don't they just walk into a hospital and cure people. We darn sure need it.

Shifting the attention lets consider the harm religion does. More people died in history because of religious affiliations.
9/11
Religious wars in most of Asia.
Rape of women and children as 'punishment'
b headings in Middle East
Blacks and gays being tortured and so much more.

A certain president of the United States banned stem cell research for a decade because it was considered evil by the church. My brother was brain damaged at birth and could have benefitted from that. He died a few years ago. But u don't worry. Because that's Gods will right???

The pope visited Africa awhile ago. A place ravaged by aids. And told the people they could not use condoms.

Justify those things before you continue a discussion.

And again, if you don't believe in science and it's findings, stay away from computers buddy.

[maj. tom]

because dude... God works in mysterious ways.

[desifemlove]

er.. specific genetic markers prove a common ancestor. This is evident between humans, the great apes and all other mammals (nay vertebrates).

You said earlier "If evolution is false, explain why all species have a proven common ancestor?" Now you are limiting it to mammals, are you finish qualifying your statement or you need more time?

Evolution is fact, who can prove otherwise?

It is not a fact, it is the leading scientific theory of the origin of species. Your incorrect statement and intense faith in evolution is why many voices have to stand up and point out the large problems why it is not a fact and why it remains a theory.

You still haven't answered why God gave us similarities in genetics and features to other species. for what purpose, and why did he need to?

I could presume to answer but I don't see how it would bolster your prior statements?

Yes, since similar genetic markers are found in various species (amphibians, fish, mammals, reptiles, etc.)

Faith? As in "faith" that water comprises hydrogen and oxygen? I think main reason is that it challenges literal interpretations of Genesis. Many Christians don't accept Genesis or even most Biblical stories as literal.

[AdamB]

Man use Bill Maher and science in consecutive sentences. Now that's comedy!!

he didnt say Bill Maher is a scientist. He said Bill Maher did a documentary on religion. He also said he couldnt believe people would reject evolution and science.

Thx man. Finally some sane person who can actually read.

You know, if we were objective about this. People who get cured of diseases, come to places of worship and promote that they were cured by divine touch and the ambiguous fainting after being touched by a screaming 'man of god' but they never consider the doctors that helped them.

If this screaming and fainting works so well why don't they just walk into a hospital and cure people. We darn sure need it.

Shifting the attention lets consider the harm religion does. More people died in history because of religious affiliations.
9/11
Religious wars in most of Asia.
Rape of women and children as 'punishment'
b headings in Middle East
Blacks and gays being tortured and so much more.

A certain president of the United States banned stem cell research for a decade because it was considered evil by the church. My brother was brain damaged at birth and could have benefitted from that. He died a few years ago. But u don't worry. Because that's Gods will right???

The pope visited Africa awhile ago. A place ravaged by aids. And told the people they could not use condoms.

Justify those things before you continue a discussion.

And again, if you don't believe in science and it's findings, stay away from computers buddy.

1. You don't believe in GOD because of the list above or because of the seeming injustice that, in your mind, you are unable to reconcile?

2. GOD created science and everything that exists including the "theory of evolution" and computers, buddy.

3. If you believe in science and evolution (and disbelieve in GOD), then why not blame that in which you believe? Some might say that only mad people put blame on that which is non-existent.

4. Islam, the True Religion of the One True GOD, does not promote what you have described of "healing" mostly in pursuit of money. We all know who does that.

5. How many were killed in 9/11 and how many were killed in retaliation after by the allied forces? How many be-headings have there been in the middle east? Compare with murders right here in T&T per capita. Do a "scientific / Bill Maher" study and come back with the results.

6. People are punished in countries for crimes that are against the law. What's your issue with that? If practising homosexuality is illegal in a country, then go somewhere else.

7. People survive with medicine and people die even when they take medicine. There's no certainty that your brother would have lived and there is no way to know. I'm really sorry but death is the only sure thing in life. Your brother did not commit any "intentional" wrong, did he? If he did not then he will gain GOD's paradise. You, with your sanity and choice, choose to disbelieve in GOD. How then can you both be re-united in the next life? There's no way to know for sure but if what religions say is true, that there is a judgment and paradise and hell, then the outcome will not be what you desire. You are the one in control of that.

8. The pope and his mafia are idiots. No justification required.

[Habit7]

Wow you not doing yourself any service.

Genetic markers prove common genetics, a common ancestor will be proof of a common ancestor. Theoretical inferences connecting the two are not proof. Present a common ancestor and show the genetic progression, dont infer.

Faith as in faith that evolution is a fact, that is context I used that word.

I dont know where you get your evidence of what "many Christians believe", but Christians follow Christ, and He believed in a literal Genesis.

[New_SPECIES]

I dont know where you get your evidence of what "many Christians believe", but Christians follow Christ..........

Christians "follow" Christ?

Or "worship" Christ?

Not sure if the two can apply simultaneously... Can I follow the one I worship or obey the one I worship?

[VLDS]

First of all I never said I don't completely have disbelief for God.

My beef is mainly with the religions of the world.

Ignoring religion then. This is what I would LIKE to think.

Some of the things in the universe and just so related that it's hard to call it coincidence. So just bear with me and think about this.

This can apply to both groups, those who believe only in science ( and btw stop comparing bill maher and science, we all know i used those in two unrelated statements) and those who believe god is all powerful and all knowing.

Why is everyone so scared to put science and god together? Isn't he all knowing so in effect the greatest scientist in the universe? So why is it not possible that what scientists discover is true and god was the architect behind this. I would assume if I was creating a world I would try many things, experiment, create, over millions and millions of years especially if I were immortal.

Again I don't know. But maybe some of you can relate to this?

[maj. tom]

Hai. You seem new. You cannot change the fanatics' and pastors' minds on this here thread. You will be going in circles for 6 months and then just lol.

Life is hard. People have to believe in what they must to survive to the end. Live and let die. Hope you have a good day tomorrow.

[Habit7]

Who is against science?

[AdamB]

First of all I never said I don't completely have disbelief for God.My beef is mainly with the religions of the world.

Ignoring religion then. This is what I would LIKE to think.

Some of the things in the universe and just so related that it's hard to call it coincidence. So just bear with me and think about this. The desert bedouin sees camel droppings and knows about the source, the animal. You see the stars, galaxies, etc and ponder about the being that left these magnificent things behind.

This can apply to both groups, those who believe only in science ( and btw stop comparing bill maher and sciencethis was a simply a joke., we all know i used those in two unrelated statements) and those who believe god is all powerful and all knowing. These are 2 of the perfect attributes of GOD. HE has many others, most with related names like The All Powerful and The All Knowing.

Why is everyone so scared to put science and god together? Isn't he all knowing so in effect the greatest scientist in the universe? So why is it not possible that what scientists discover is true and god was the architect behind this. I would assume if I was creating a world I would try many things, experiment, create, over millions and millions of years especially if I were immortal. This is exactly the concept in Islam. In fact, you can examine the scientific miracles present in the Quran which an illiterate man 1435 lunar years ago could not possibly know. If you apply the science of mathematics, specifically statistics, you would conclude that it is impossible for Muhammad to have guessed correctly all of the scientific concepts present in the Quran. That is because the Quran is the Word of GOD Almighty in it's entirety in Arabic. So as you have said, would the perfect all knowing all powerful creator (architect) have made mistakes in HIS creation.

Again I don't know. This confession / acknowledgement is the best place to commence your search. Ask GOD sincerely to guide you and to make you see truth as truth and falsehood as falsehood. HE will guide you to that which you seek...and HE will not disappoint!But maybe some of you can relate to this?

If you believe in GOD, the Creator of the Universe and everything that exists and in the manner you have described above....then look into Islam.

Don't look at the mistakes some or most (possibly due to media influence) followers of the religion make, look at what the religion teaches, it's concept of GOD, the follower's relationship with GOD and each other (relationships), society, etc.

Look at the effect adherence to its teachings has on the individual and the society.

Don't look at the unfounded criticism of the evil, godless, materialistic, greedy, "western" society.

[i am an idiot]

Don't look at the unfounded criticism of the evil, godless, materialistic, greedy, "western" society.

Bro i work for devout muslims, they are everything u said above, that is religion to make u believe.

They goin mosque everyday, prayin all in d office, n dey are the most dishonest people i know. They just made d hajj ting too. So daiz to give you ah idea of how "devout" they are.

[meccalli]

Religious people are the most lost people in the world who just go through motions, its people who truly know their God are the ones separated as God doesn't want us to conform to the things in the world. -
evil, godless, materialistic, greedy

[i am an idiot]

Oh look ...my post made top of the page.

I wonder if allah wanted this to??
:lol::lol::lol:

[i am an idiot]

12. It is the Will of GOD that the above post hit the top of this page as I certainly did not intend it and every thing that happens that we don't have direct control of does so by HIS (Universal) WILL.

[AdamB]

Don't look at the unfounded criticism of the evil, godless, materialistic, greedy, "western" society.

Bro i work for devout muslims, they are everything u said above, that is religion to make u believe.

They goin mosque everyday, prayin all in d office, n dey are the most dishonest people i know. They just made d hajj ting too. So daiz to give you ah idea of how "devout" they are.

What people sow they will reap. I don't deny that some people are like that but that does not mean that the religion teaches dishonesty.

But then again, you could be bashing them unjustly...

[AdamB]

12. It is the Will of GOD that the above post hit the top of this page as I certainly did not intend it and every thing that happens that we don't have direct control of does so by HIS (Universal) WILL.

Everything that exist and happens does so by the Will of Allah! There is a good reason for such....you may or may not see it, but it is there...

[cracker]

People stll believe that jesus was a real person?

[AdamB]

People stll believe that jesus was a real person?

is there real evidence to support that view?

[VLDS]

Don't push religious beliefs on me. I won't budge. But atleast I can see there is some, be it small common ground we can meet on.

So as a topic of discussion not a intentional push. You talk about the science of the quaran. I'm not denying or arguing your point. But also consider that in the Hindu scriptures there is a mass of scientific information witching their many books. There is science or aeronautics, mathematics and so much more.

Here is a piece of an article of the huffington post. Il post the link to it after.

In the West, Einstein is credited with the Theory of Relativity. However, one might be quite surprised to learn that there are multiple examples of it in the Puranic texts of India. Einstein's hypothetical experiment known as the "twin paradox" suggests that if one of a pair of twins travels to outer space at high speed, while the other remains on earth, when the space traveling twin returns, he will be younger than his counterpart on earth. The following passages from the Bhagavat Purana communicates the relativity of time:

"... One's life endures for only one hundred years, in terms of the times in the different planets... Eternal time is certainly the controller of different dimensions, from that of the atom up to the super-divisions of the duration of Brahmā's life; but, nevertheless, it is controlled by the Supreme. Time can control only those who are body conscious, even up to the Satyaloka or the other higher planets of the universe."

This is a discussion right. And according to your argument you should be a Hindu? Scientific religion and all.

[AdamB]

Don't push religious beliefs on me. I won't budge. But atleast I can see there is some, be it small common ground we can meet on.

So as a topic of discussion not a intentional push. You talk about the science of the quaran. I'm not denying or arguing your point. But also consider that in the Hindu scriptures there is a mass of scientific information witching their many books. There is science or aeronautics, mathematics and so much more.

Here is a piece of an article of the huffington post. Il post the link to it after.

In the West, Einstein is credited with the Theory of Relativity. However, one might be quite surprised to learn that there are multiple examples of it in the Puranic texts of India. Einstein's hypothetical experiment known as the "twin paradox" suggests that if one of a pair of twins travels to outer space at high speed, while the other remains on earth, when the space traveling twin returns, he will be younger than his counterpart on earth. The following passages from the Bhagavat Purana communicates the relativity of time:

"... One's life endures for only one hundred years, in terms of the times in the different planets... Eternal time is certainly the controller of different dimensions, from that of the atom up to the super-divisions of the duration of Brahmā's life; but, nevertheless, it is controlled by the Supreme. Time can control only those who are body conscious, even up to the Satyaloka or the other higher planets of the universe."

This is a discussion right. And according to your argument you should be a Hindu? Scientific religion and all.

What about all of the contamination of those books, uncertainty of who wrote them and tampered with them, uncertainty of preservation, wrongs concepts and "Nostradamus" style prophesies?

With reference to the Einstein experiment, speaking about the relativity of time: please read about the story of the people of the Cave in the Quran Chapter 18 verses 9-25: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=73

9 Do you think that the people of the Cave and the Inscription (the news or the names of the people of the Cave) were a wonder among Our Signs?

10 (Remember) when the young men fled for refuge (from their disbelieving folk) to the Cave. They said: "Our Lord! Bestow on us mercy from Yourself, and facilitate for us our affair in the right way!"

11 Therefore We covered up their (sense of) hearing (causing them to go in deep sleep) in the Cave for a number of years.

12 Then We raised them up (from their sleep), that We might test which of the two parties was best at calculating the time period that they had tarried.

13 We narrate unto you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) their story with truth: Truly they were young men who believed in their Lord (Allah), and We increased them in guidance.

14 And We made their hearts firm and strong (with the light of Faith in Allah and bestowed upon them patience to bear the separation of their kith and kin and dwellings) when they stood up and said: "Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, never shall we call upon any ilah (god) other than Him; if we did, we should indeed have uttered an enormity in disbelief.

15 "These our people have taken for worship alihah (gods) other than Him (Allah). Why do they not bring for them a clear authority? And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah.

16 (The young men said to one another): "And when you withdraw from them, and that which they worship, except Allah, then seek refuge in the Cave; your Lord will open a way for you from His Mercy and will make easy for you your affair (i.e. will give you what you will need of provision, dwelling)."

17 And you might have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the midst of the Cave. That is (one) of the Ayat (proofs, evidence, signs) of Allah. He whom Allah guides, he is the rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no Wali (guiding friend) to lead him (to the right Path).

18 And you would have thought them awake, whereas they were asleep. And We turned them on their right and on their left sides, and their dog stretching forth his two forelegs at the entrance [of the Cave or in the space near to the entrance of the Cave (as a guard at the gate)]. Had you looked at them, you would certainly have turned back from them in flight, and would certainly have been filled with awe of them.

19 Likewise, We awakened them (from their long deep sleep) that they might question one another. A speaker from among them said: "How long have you stayed (here)?" They said: "We have stayed (perhaps) a day or part of a day." They said: "Your Lord (Alone) knows best how long you have stayed (here). So send one of you with this silver coin of yours to the town, and let him find out which is the good lawful food, and bring some of that to you. And let him be careful and let no man know of you.

20 "For, if they come to know of you, they will stone you (to death or abuse and harm you) or turn you back to their religion; and in that case you will never be successful."

21 And thus We made their case known (to the people), that they might know that the Promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour. (Remember) when they (the people of the city) disputed among themselves about their case, they said: "Construct a building over them; their Lord knows best about them;" (then) those who won their point said (most probably the disbelievers): "We verily shall build a place of worship over them."

22 (Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; and (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth, - guessing at the unseen; (yet others) say they were seven, and the dog being the eighth. Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "My Lord knows best their number; none knows them but a few." So debate not (about their number) except with the clear proof (which We have revealed to you). And consult not any of them (people of the Scripture - Jews and Christians) about (the affair of) the people of the Cave.

23 And never say of anything, "I shall do such and such thing tomorrow."

24 Except (with the saying), "If Allah will!" And remember your Lord when you forget and say: "It may be that my Lord guides me unto a nearer way of truth than this."

25 And they stayed in their Cave three hundred (solar) years, adding nine (for lunar years). (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi)

[VLDS]

Hahaha. Ok I get it.

I see where this goes. Closed minded single religion thing. I'm done. I hate people like that who think only their religion is the best and try to push it onto others.

To you my friend. I don't think the world would be better with more religion. I think it would better if people listened to science a bit. Stop polluting, go green, recycle as well as treating people better, helping others, end racism, end religion or at least find a common ground so there is no argument, lower crime. That stuff is important to me. And don't go quoting away because that stuff doesn't necessitate religion.
And if there is a god. And I don't choose a religion but I follow these things, and live a good life why in the world am I not as good or better than the oh so religious to be accepted into whatever comes after.

[VLDS]

Also my friend. I don't think those are your own words or thoughts. I think they are pasted from a certain pro Islamic site.