The Religion Discussion

[MG Man]

And a sarcastic atheist reading both Christian and Muslim scriptures.

Like that does real bother you

[marlener]

Nah by all means read,studying would be better but since you are reading go right ahead.Just making sure you are being inclusive. Doh take it personal,I've expressed difference of opinions with Rocknrolla,Duane,nareshsheep and a couple others so don't feel to special.

[nareshseep]

In regione caecorum rex est luscus.

[AdamB]

Quran, 2:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

"Meaning: The right course has become clear from the wrong." The Noble Quran Translation by Khan and Hilalee.

[RBphoto]

Wow, after a few years, someone quotes the Quoran to show a verse advocating no violence.

[Habit7]

Quran, 2:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

It is lovely to quote that but it is also important to note the timescale.

Quran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 2:256 refers to when the Muslims were a peaceful persecuted group fleeing to Medina to practice their religion unabated.
Quran 9:29 refers to almost the end of Muhammad's life after Muslims have become a warring hoard ridding the Arabian Peninsula of everyone who does not accept Islam.

Quran 9:29 abrogates Quran 2:256

Volume 9, Book 85, Number 77 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out to us and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went along with him till we reached Bait-al-Midras (a place where the Torah used to be recited and all the Jews of the town used to gather). The Prophet stood up and addressed them, "O Assembly of Jews! Embrace Islam and you will be safe!" The Jews replied, "O Aba-l-Qasim! You have conveyed Allah's message to us." The Prophet said, "That is what I want (from you)." He repeated his first statement for the second time, and they said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-l-Qasim." Then he said it for the third time and added, "You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you fro,,, this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." (See Hadith No. 392, Vol. 4) Sahih Bukhari 85


Become Muslims otherwise we will cease your property.

[rocknrolla]

ny local Muslim clerics come out in condemnation of the Kenyan attacks? One of our own were brutally murdered
Another forum member has mentioned that in their mosques people were happy for these attacks to take place? His comments have since been deleted.

That's the problem RASC, the so called "peaceful" ones never bat an eye when the radicals murder, torture and terrorize hundreds of innocent people. In the truest sense of the cliched term "the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". This is a muslim problem that the muslim world needs to fix.


Both Christianity and Judaism has through periods of revolution and change and have moved away from medieval practices; these aren't the middle ages!! These cowardly towel heads run around killing women and children in the name of so called "religiously legitimized violence" and when it happens the "non-violents" say "oh well, I'm not violent but i can certainly understand why that group of nice men slaughtered innocent women and children in a mall" They spew garbage and then take the ostrich approach.

Very good point....religion should evolve.... The core teaching stay intact but the approach should be different and reflect the times we live in.......Violence might have worked in the past but it has no place in a civilized society... How can one commit these horrific crimes in the name of any god... They work for the devil... No god.....

when i say the same things u just say pages and pages ago.. they say i sound like a lunatic on acid.

mpty

[rocknrolla]

Quran, 2:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

It is lovely to quote that but it is also important to note the timescale.

Quran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 2:256 refers to when the Muslims were a peaceful persecuted group fleeing to Medina to practice their religion unabated.
Quran 9:29 refers to almost the end of Muhammad's life after Muslims have become a warring hoard ridding the Arabian Peninsula of everyone who does not accept Islam.

Quran 9:29 abrogates Quran 2:256

Volume 9, Book 85, Number 77 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out to us and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went along with him till we reached Bait-al-Midras (a place where the Torah used to be recited and all the Jews of the town used to gather). The Prophet stood up and addressed them, "O Assembly of Jews! Embrace Islam and you will be safe!" The Jews replied, "O Aba-l-Qasim! You have conveyed Allah's message to us." The Prophet said, "That is what I want (from you)." He repeated his first statement for the second time, and they said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-l-Qasim." Then he said it for the third time and added, "You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you fro,,, this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." (See Hadith No. 392, Vol. 4) Sahih Bukhari 85


Become Muslims otherwise we will cease your property.

i and anyone who worships 'The God' is a muslim. and that is all you have to say. once u acknowledge The Supreme creator u are muslim. regardless of being a christian. we are talking vocabulary here.

the attack took place on an israeli owned mall. an attack against jews. most likely repurcussions for the failure in egypt with the ousting of morsi and the denial of US government intervention in syria.

victims at the mall were requested to cite a verse from the Quran for their lives to be spared.

had they had a little pelau that would be rather easy.

[marlener]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24516181
Now the courts have ruled that non Muslims cannot use Allah to refer to God,what are the views of the local Muslims on this?

[rocknrolla]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24516181
Now the courts have ruled that non Muslims cannot use Allah to refer to God,what are the views of the local Muslims on this?

lols.. no more recruiting to islam

[marlener]

But Rocknrolla you should email them and educate them that anyone who believes in God is a Muslim,hence their ruling is unconstitutional and an infringement of their rights.

[rocknrolla]

But Rocknrolla you should email them and educate them that anyone who believes in God is a Muslim,hence their ruling is unconstitutional and an infringement of their rights.

all will answer for themselves my boy. it is they that went and got themselves the title name 'Judge'. when they are judged i hope they understand.

[bluefete]

If there are so many religions with so many Gods, how come all humans have the same basic features?

Is it that these Gods got together and agreed on a blueprint?

Or is there really only one true God with the blueprint?

every species has adapted in different ways to survive......its evolution....not a blueprint. I did not mention species, I mentioned humans.

Is Satan a creator or destroyer?

god = good
satan = bad

basics of teaching good from bad....imagine a world where people didnt know what is good from bad. lol And these came from ... ?


Do truly intelligent people really believe that the building blocks of life came hurtling through the atmosphere on an asteroid/comet from outer space? If so, then aliens must really exist!

yes...that is one theory....but there are many other theories as well.

and yes, chances of life forming on another planet or celestial body is very high.....may not be little green men, it can simply be a single cell creature. Created or evolved?

[maj. tom]

I thought that this was very interesting from my favourite comics:



Originally published on Friday April 01, 1988.
© Andrews McMeel Publishing, LLC.

Fair use of image:

This image is of a drawing, painting, print, or other two-dimensional work of art, and the copyright for it is most likely owned by either the artist who produced the image, the person who commissioned the work, or the heirs thereof. It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of works of art

- for critical commentary on
■the work in question,
■the artistic genre or technique of the work of art or
■the school to which the artist belongs

qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Any other uses of this image, on www.Trinituner.com or elsewhere, might be copyright infringement.

(wow, I had nothing better to do )

Bill Watterson was so brilliant in presenting these reflections within his characters; he based Calvin on the French theologian John Calvin and Hobbes on the English philosopher Thomas Hobbes.

[stev]

If there are so many religions with so many Gods, how come all humans have the same basic features?

Is it that these Gods got together and agreed on a blueprint?

Or is there really only one true God with the blueprint?

every species has adapted in different ways to survive......its evolution....not a blueprint. I did not mention species, I mentioned humans.

humans are a type of species....homo sapiens

Is Satan a creator or destroyer?

god = good
satan = bad

basics of teaching good from bad....imagine a world where people didnt know what is good from bad. lol And these came from ... ?

....some believe these teachings came from God,,,,others believe it was made up by other humans in an attempt to establish some sort of order


Do truly intelligent people really believe that the building blocks of life came hurtling through the atmosphere on an asteroid/comet from outer space? If so, then aliens must really exist!

yes...that is one theory....but there are many other theories as well.

and yes, chances of life forming on another planet or celestial body is very high.....may not be little green men, it can simply be a single cell creature. Created or evolved?

created as a 'by product' of the universe....ever hear the saying:

"Given enough time, hydrogen starts to wonder where it came from, and where it is going"

not sure if u might get it as your beliefs are different (nothing wrong with that)

[AdamB]

Quran, 2:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

It is lovely to quote that but it is also important to note the timescale.

Quran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 2:256 refers to when the Muslims were a peaceful persecuted group fleeing to Medina to practice their religion unabated.
Quran 9:29 refers to almost the end of Muhammad's life after Muslims have become a warring hoard ridding the Arabian Peninsula of everyone who does not accept Islam.

Quran 9:29 abrogates Quran 2:256

Volume 9, Book 85, Number 77 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out to us and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went along with him till we reached Bait-al-Midras (a place where the Torah used to be recited and all the Jews of the town used to gather). The Prophet stood up and addressed them, "O Assembly of Jews! Embrace Islam and you will be safe!" The Jews replied, "O Aba-l-Qasim! You have conveyed Allah's message to us." The Prophet said, "That is what I want (from you)." He repeated his first statement for the second time, and they said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-l-Qasim." Then he said it for the third time and added, "You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you fro,,, this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." (See Hadith No. 392, Vol. 4) Sahih Bukhari 85


Become Muslims otherwise we will cease your property.

habit7 now a scholar of Islam?? LOL

Quran 2:257 Allah is the Wali (Protector or Guardian) of those who believe. He brings them out from darkness into the light. And those who disbelieve - their Auliya (supporters and helpers) are Taghut (false deities and false leaders). They take them out of the light into darkness. Those are the dwellers of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein.

[Habit7]

It's not that I am I a scholar of Islam it is just a repeated tactic of some Muslims, in an attempt to sidestep the violent commands of the Quran, will knowing misapply the peaceful commands of Islam earliest days as if it overrides Islam's violent commands in the subsequent more violent days.

Quran 2:106 We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

[AdamB]

It's not that I am I a scholar of Islam it is just a repeated tactic of some Muslims, in an attempt to sidestep the violent commands of the Quran, will knowing misapply the peaceful commands of Islam earliest days as if it overrides Islam's violent commands in the subsequent more violent days.

Quran 2:106 We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

So it's confirmed that you are not a scholar of Islam. if you want to know the meaning of verses or whether they have or have not been abrogated, then seek that info from a scholar.

Verses that you may think contradict may actually be referring to totally different issues.

There is no compulsion in religion - no one can force someone to become a muslim or any other religion. No one can be forced internally to accept a religion even if they are threatened with loss of life.

However, when it comes to non-muslims living in an Islamic state with laws governing the rules and conditions of such....then that is another issue. Wouldn't you say?

[AdamB]

However, when it comes to non-muslims living in an Islamic state with laws governing the rules and conditions of such....then that is another issue. Wouldn't you say?

Or about IDOLATERS entering the precincts of Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca which muslims hold sacred and Allah made this legislative ruling!

[Habit7]

There is no compulsion in religion - no one can force someone to become a muslim or any other religion. No one can be forced internally to accept a religion even if they are threatened with loss of life.

However, when it comes to non-muslims living in an Islamic state with laws governing the rules and conditions of such....then that is another issue. Wouldn't you say?

No, there couldn't be a clearer example of a contradiction than what you just said there.

If in Islam there is not compulsion in religion, how much more so that an Islamic state which has laws founded on the principles of Islam, not compel anyone to be apart of the religion of Islam?

Should Muslims living in the UK be compelled to become members of the Church of England or Church of Scotland and worship there?

[AdamB]

There is no compulsion in religion - no one can force someone to become a muslim or any other religion. No one can be forced internally to accept a religion even if they are threatened with loss of life.

However, when it comes to non-muslims living in an Islamic state with laws governing the rules and conditions of such....then that is another issue. Wouldn't you say?

No, there couldn't be a clearer example of a contradiction than what you just said there.
Maybe it's not clear because you are blinded by your love for TAUGHUT.

If in Islam there is not compulsion in religion, how much more so that an Islamic state which has laws founded on the principles of Islam, not compel anyone to be apart of the religion of Islam?
Don't you get it, if you are not a muslim then there is a SEPARATION. You don't have the same rights and liberties as a muslim. THE RIGHT PATH HAS BEEN MADE DISTINCT FROM THE WRONG.

Should Muslims living in the UK be compelled to become members of the Church of England or Church of Scotland and worship there?

Christians have made up their laws as they came along, so by all means go ahead. Muslims don't worship in churches....

[Habit7]

Don't you get it, if you are not a muslim then there is a SEPARATION. You don't have the same rights and liberties as a muslim. THE RIGHT PATH HAS BEEN MADE DISTINCT FROM THE WRONG.

Well I know that I wont get it. Because Christianity, more than any other religion and even against atheistic notion, teaches that all men are created equal under God. This ideology has been propagated to the benefit of the majority of this world.

So whether in a secular country or one dominated by Christians (no such thing as a Christian country) when it has been influenced by a biblical morality, it can truly say there is no compulsion in religion, unlike Islam.

[nareshseep]

Don't you get it, if you are not a muslim then there is a SEPARATION. You don't have the same rights and liberties as a muslim. THE RIGHT PATH HAS BEEN MADE DISTINCT FROM THE WRONG.

Well I know that I wont get it. Because Christianity, more than any other religion and even against atheistic notion, teaches that all men are created equal under God. This ideology has been propagated to the benefit of the majority of this world.

So whether in a secular country or one dominated by Christians (no such thing as a Christian country) when it has been influenced by a biblical morality, it can truly say there is no compulsion in religion, unlike Islam.

In the real world .... All men are not equal

[AdamB]

Don't you get it, if you are not a muslim then there is a SEPARATION. You don't have the same rights and liberties as a muslim. THE RIGHT PATH HAS BEEN MADE DISTINCT FROM THE WRONG.

Well I know that I wont get it. Because Christianity, more than any other religion and even against atheistic notion, teaches that all men are created equal under God. This ideology has been propagated to the benefit of the majority of this world.

So whether in a secular country or one dominated by Christians (no such thing as a Christian country) when it has been influenced by a biblical morality, it can truly say there is no compulsion in religion, unlike Islam.

In the real world .... All men are not equal

Yes all men are created equal,
equal opportunity to believe,
equal opportunity to disbelieve,
equal opportunity to obey GOD,
equal opportunity to disobey GOD,
equal opportunity to worship GOD,
equal opportunity to worship others besides GOD,
equal opportunity to gain paradise,
equal opportunity to gain hellfire/punishment.

However, there are state rights and individual rights...let a lunatic run amok on your property or your home and see how fast you call the police and throw away that "all men are created equal" supposed christian philosophy.

THE RIGHT PATH HAS BEEN MADE DISTINCT FROM THE WRONG!

[Habit7]

However, there are state rights and individual rights...let a lunatic run amok on your property or your home and see how fast you call the police and throw away that "all men are created equal" supposed christian philosophy.

Me calling the police or engaging in self-defence especially on my property in no way violates the fact that all men are created equal.

You want to retry that analogy?

equal opportunity to worship GOD,
equal opportunity to worship others besides GOD

lol, certainly not in Saudi Arabia

[nismotrinidappa]

secular= unequal?

ADAMB?

[nismotrinidappa]

hi guys been out of the thread for a while just wanna share a little input and my thoughts on the matter

Well make it in response to this viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=16440#p7377933

Aright... Let me waste a little more time then...


HABIT7 stated (since he quotes from Christian websites, as usual):

that GOD can sometimes Control SATAN to make man commit sin...

So I asked the following questions:
[color=#008000]i wouldnt say that god controls satan to make man commit sin. man has a will to do what he wants, but god steps in from time to time against satan. with the example of job when satan was terrorizing him to give up his faith, god said you can test him but do not kill him, so satan did the poor man everything possible! and another example is us right here on tuner. many times before we could have perished, but god has an almighty plan for us, the best of plans for us here on earth, and we get countless chances to walk the life god wants us. you could have died on that highway yesterday, but god said not yet.[/color]

My First Question:

(1) If God can occasionally “control satan” then why allow satan to cause his creation to commit sin?

Habit7 Answer (summarized):
- The evil that already exist in man causes him to reproduce (out of evil lust)...
- Since man was then born as a result of evil lust that was within his parents, he is now born in sin...
- Since this sin is now accomplished then it brings about death...

This is what Habit7 is really saying.............. You try to understand.....:
• According to Habit7 the natural act of reproduction is an act of evil
• We commit sin by having children
• We cause sin on our children by having sex with our wife (due to lust for them).

adam and eve due to disobedience entered good and evil into the heart of man. part of the punishment for that was that the woman would bring forth children in pain and agony, but the act of reproduction is not evil.reproduction is baby making. sex without the plan for reproduction is fulfilling lust of the sexual flesh and fornication.see the difference? and yes we are born with original sin but not because of lust for your wife lol


My Second Question:
(2) If God can occasionally “allow” satan to do what he desires then why bestow punishment on man for sins that God “allowed”?

Habit7 Answer (summarized):
- God allowed satan to influence Job to commit sin so that eventually God could make him the Governor of Egypt
- God allowed satan to influence the people to “crucify” Jesus as part of his plan.

This is what Habit7 is really saying.............. You try to understand.....:
So one minute Habit7 said that Jesus is God but now he said that God allowed satan to influence the people to crucify Jesus (which is God himself)....
So although Jesus is God (or the best of men), he would allow satan make the people torture and kill himself for the people to think that he is a saviour.
And you say the Allah is the best of deceivers?
Sounds like you are saying that God / Jesus allowed himself to be killed to fool the people..

It is just impossible for me to respond to something as Wack as that... sorry!
i cleared this up i hope already with my first statement. man chooses to sin. he has a will and makes his choice. nobody forces you or makes you sin but yourself. the only way to make things right and fair was for jesus to beat satan at his own game. thats why he took the form of man. lived life as a man, fight sin as a man, showed man how to live a sin free life, died for man and took back the keys of hell from satan and shows that it is possible for man to conquer the odds and be victorious in the spirit.

My Third Question:
(3) If God does occasionally “control” or “allow” satan, then what is “Free Will” to do right or wrong?

Habit7 Answer (summarized):
- We (mankind) do not have free will...
- We (mankind) have corrupted will...
- We (mankind) always want to do evil, long before satan arrive...

This is what Habit7 is really saying.............. You try to understand.....:
• According to Habit7 mankind doesn’t have the ability to choose a right decision over a wrong one since we don’t have free will.
• Mankind was somehow only created with an inclination toward evil and it doesn’t have anything to do with satan
• Although God built us to have sex and reproduce, the act of sex is a sin, and the act of reproduction is an outcome of sin (since it is a by-product of lust).
we are born with sin. we have both good desires and bad desires in us. you have the free choice to follow either..its as simple as that. really

You really want me to understand that Nonsense and give a response?

I just want 2NRs to see the crap you really talking!

[AdamB]

The religion of ISLAM is based on knowledge and evidence. Not on the whims and fancies of self-appointed "philosophers".

[rocknrolla]

The religion of ISLAM is based on knowledge and evidence. Not on the whims and fancies of self-appointed "philosophers".

boy u still peltin rocks at me and i not even in the thread?

just remember Jesus is the son of Allah, ordained and claimed, to have come from virgin birth by divine impregnation unlike ANY of the other prophets. including muhammad. dont underestimate the 'mad' part of his name.

[RBphoto]

The religion of ISLAM is based on knowledge and evidence. Not on the whims and fancies of self-appointed "philosophers".

Still has no proof of god, except a book, that says god exists. Still have not seen one shred of proof from you. You have never posted any and you will never be able to because god is a fairy tale.