The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

Since the argument initially was about the consistency of the Bible, he needs to show that my answer (not his summary and reinterpretation) is inconsistent with the Bible. Making my view look incredulous is not refuting it. My answer references directly and indirectly the views of the Bible. The consistency of the Bible is maintained.

If God can occasionally “control satan” then why allow satan to cause his creation to commit sin?
1)Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1:12-18

If God can occasionally “allow” satan to do what he desires then why bestow punishment on man for sins that God “allowed”?
2)Firstly as James says, sin occurs when we of our own volition choose to do what is wrong, regardless of who is tempting. Therefore God is just in punishing or rewarding a man for his deeds. Secondly, though the means might appear evil to the one committing it, God can still use it to bring forth good, as in Satan's interaction with Job, Joseph being sold into slavery but then becoming governor of Egypt and most importantly, Jesus being crucified by men but then becomes the Saviour of all men who believe.

If God does occasionally “control” or “allow” satan, then what is “Free Will” to do right or wrong?
3)Who said anything about free will? We have a corrupted will, a will that wants to do evil long before Satan arrives to tempt us.

Lets try to get to the highest point of the triangle as possible

[Slartibartfast]

Again. We will get back to that later. I admit that the conversation has verged off course a bit, but, it has gone in a direction that has everyone else interested (those not interested can reply yo this comment below). We will come back to consistency later. Please reply to what New_SPECIES said. I am very interested to hear your view on it.

[New_SPECIES]

Since the argument initially was about the consistency of the Bible, he needs to show that my answer (not his summary and reinterpretation) is inconsistent with the Bible. Making my view look incredulous is not refuting it. My answer references directly and indirectly the views of the Bible. The consistency of the Bible is maintained.

If God can occasionally “control satan” then why allow satan to cause his creation to commit sin?
1)Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1:12-18

If God can occasionally “allow” satan to do what he desires then why bestow punishment on man for sins that God “allowed”?
2)Firstly as James says, sin occurs when we of our own volition choose to do what is wrong, regardless of who is tempting. Therefore God is just in punishing or rewarding a man for his deeds. Secondly, though the means might appear evil to the one committing it, God can still use it to bring forth good, as in Satan's interaction with Job, Joseph being sold into slavery but then becoming governor of Egypt and most importantly, Jesus being crucified by men but then becomes the Saviour of all men who believe.

If God does occasionally “control” or “allow” satan, then what is “Free Will” to do right or wrong?
3)Who said anything about free will? We have a corrupted will, a will that wants to do evil long before Satan arrives to tempt us.

Let me correct you there partner... the argument about Inconsistency in the Bible “was dealt with and proven already!”,
.............we move on from that long time!

This argument is about You saying that “God occasionally controls Satan”.

What was your point of re-stating what you already said?

It shows CLEARLY that my summary was a Very Accurate representation of your words...

By GOOGLING endless pics and diagrams only displays your skill of using GOOGLE, and shows your intention to divert the attention of others from the Questions Raised!

I’m starting to think that maybe you’re a part of the PP Government...

[Chimera]

[Habit7]

Let me correct you there partner... the argument about Inconsistency in the Bible “was dealt with and proven already!”,
.............we move on from that long time!

Well it is a good thing we write what we say and I can show that you are not speaking the truth.

You copied and pasted (quite possibly from a Islamic website) 4000+ words you offered as contradictions in Bible, I equally offered you one of the many websites that answered those apparent contradictions, and I cited my source. Nevertheless in this post viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=16440#p7377766 you said "NOW, In terms of these Contradictions..." and began to try harder in pressing your first apparent contradiction despite the well worded explanation you received prior. You offered three questions which were an effort to show the "Christian website's" answer was inconsistent with how the Bible reveals the relationship between God and Satan and thereby your first example of an apparent contradiction would be true.

Nothing was dealt with and proven already, you still on point 1

This argument is about You saying that “God occasionally controls Satan”.
What was your point of re-stating what you already said?

I was giving you an example of how to address and refute the points made, I hope you attempt to follow.

It shows CLEARLY that my summary was a Very Accurate representation of your words...

But someone objectively said about what you did

I agree that him answering the questions for you can be seen as him "putting words in your mouth"

There is no need for you to summarize and reinterpret my response, you need to address it and refute it, not create a straw man that you can knock over.

But since you want the cliffnotes:
1) These were not my words but a direct quotation from the Bible showing that your premise "why allow satan to cause his creation to commit sin?" is wrong because our sin is primarily our responsibility that initiates within ourselves, not by any demons prodding us.

2)This is just an outworking of your incorrect premise from the first question. Satan doesn't cause us to sin, we do.

3)Free will is the ability to do whatever one wants. Only God has free will. The Bible never says man has free will. We have a limited will, and it has been tainted with sin, thus we want to do wrong things unlike God's perfect unfettered will.



And if you still question whether God can control Satan, I offer you what the Bible has to say on the matter.

Job 1:6-12 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

[marlener]

At no point is satan beyond the control of God,God man allows Satan to do certain things but the choice to yield is still up to us as he cannot force us to disobey God. This is the reason that we are held responsibile for our choices.

[MG Man]

Still reading the Bible with an open mind. Still find it irritating to read. Why the heck would god have us fight up with a translation of a dead language 2,000 years later?????
Half the sheet I been reading is worse than when I had to read Shakespeare in school. Instead of 'oh my, how inspired I am!!!' It's more wha thafuck is thusshit?
Same for the koran, which I am also reading :-/

[marlener]

Open mind you said! Ok and already giving a commentary on it as as sheit. Sounds like you are reading for reading sake to say that you have read them. The Koran and the Bible that is.

[rocknrolla]

Still reading the Bible with an open mind. Still find it irritating to read. Why the heck would god have us fight up with a translation of a dead language 2,000 years later?????
Half the sheet I been reading is worse than when I had to read Shakespeare in school. Instead of 'oh my, how inspired I am!!!' It's more wha thafuck is thusshit?
Same for the koran, which I am also reading :-/

it's encrypted. that way if anyone changes anything from the truth the key to decoding will reveal any lies or additions within. it's how the knowledge was preserved over centuries. try to add something or take away and it becomes highly visible that editting occured. u can then syphon out the truth from the lies. that's what is done with all the world's secrets.

[MG Man]

Open mind you said! Ok and already giving a commentary on it as as sheit. Sounds like you are reading for reading sake to say that you have read them. The Koran and the Bible that is.

So how long do I have to wait before giving commentary????????
Why would I waste my time reading them for the sake of saying I did? That's just dumb.
Fyi this is not the first time I'm reading the bible. I tried reading it years ago when I believed in a thing called god. Back them I still couldn't find much sense or inspiration. Lots of mass genocide tho :-/
Kill all but keep the women for yourselves? I guess the women gave themselves freely after all their men were killed? What do you suppose they would have kept the women for?

[maj. tom]

Mark 11:13-14
New International Version (NIV)
13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.

Mark 11:21
New International Version (NIV)
21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”




So this poor tree was out of season and Jesus killed it? what kind of wanker does that?

[marlener]

Well then a question seeing that you have tried reading it before and trying again and already drawing conclusion,care to share your reason for doing so?

[megadoc1]

[MG Man]

Well then a question seeing that you have tried reading it before and trying again and already drawing conclusion,care to share your reason for doing so?

What u mean by 'already drawing conclusions'???
What am I supposed to do? Masturbate?

[marlener]

What ever float ur boat bro,still didn't say what where ur reasons for reading the Koran and Bible though.

[Habit7]

Still reading the Bible with an open mind. Still find it irritating to read. Why the heck would god have us fight up with a translation of a dead language 2,000 years later?????
Half the sheet I been reading is worse than when I had to read Shakespeare in school. Instead of 'oh my, how inspired I am!!!' It's more wha thafuck is thusshit?
Same for the koran, which I am also reading :-/

Well they are not dead languages, they are very much in use today. That been said which translation are you using? My recommendation would be the New American Standard Bible (NASB) which gives the most accurate word to word translation into English. The English Standard Version (ESV) also offers a word to word translation but isnt as 'wooden' as the NASB. Or if you want an accurate phrase by phrase translation there is the New Living Translation (NLT) which isnt as literal as the two prior but is easier reading for those having trouble understanding ancient ideas.

It is also good to get a study Bible that offers commentary on the verses you read. A common error ppl make when reading the Bible is to interpret it as a contemporary writing, but there is need to understand the historical context. http://www.albertmohler.com/2008/12/15/ ... udy-bible/

[MG Man]

Lol @ bible study. Why couldn't your god write a book everyone could understand? Whose bible study should I trust?

[rocknrolla]

Lol @ bible study. Why couldn't your god write a book everyone could understand? Whose bible study should I trust?

that is a very good question. and i would say that the answer is.. your own. unless u can get to speak with an ascended master well versed in interpretting ur particular religion. there is alot of good things that can be gained from the words in the bible. take what u know to be good and apply it in ur life. trust your intuition to both guide and reward you along the path.

but if u are already a good person, there may not be as much that you need to improve in your life from the advice in the book. all ud be missing is a belief in a Supreme Creator and facilitator of life showing gratitude, and to begin meditational practice of clearing the mind as you reach out to the infinite asking it to reveal more of itself to u. you can always speak to God as i did in apology for any errors of your ways and ask him for signs that he is real. a sign may only last a while until u rationalize it away. but then u can ask for another sign and allow your faith to grow to constant communication with God over time. as u will see in the story of Abraham, he had doubts in the beginning and over time his faith grew to the point where he trusted God so much he would obey his command to kill his son. God then stops him and lets him know that it was all just a test.

but there is always alot to learn and there is alot of wisdom in the books. some planted literally and some planted in the moral of a story where ud have to read the whole story to get it. regardless of if u believe it was written by the hand of Gods or God's chosen individuals. take what is good and seek to improve ur connection with the inner spirit of life that gives u consciousness. we are more than robots without purpose.

[Habit7]

Well your inability to understand the Bible doesnt factor in what is the best-selling and most widely distributed book in the world. The King James Bible translations is the greatest single influence on the English language. If you want a book everyone could understand, check a nursery rhyme, but if you want a book that will give you eternal life which is the knowledge of God, then you are going to need help. For a study Bible to trust I included a link to a couple of study Bibles recommended by Al Mohler, president of one of the largest seminaries in the world, let me do it again http://www.albertmohler.com/2008/12/15/ ... udy-bible/ .

You, I and everyone else needs help in reading and understanding the Bible. There are terms, concepts, idioms, etc. that are totally lost on us as English speakers 2,000 years later. Maybe then you would understand that the conquest of Canaan not be genocide but that it was both a just war by the Israelites and an act of judgement against the Canaanites by God, which Israel later received themselves also.

[rspann]

The only problem with commentaries, is that the you take the risk of getting some of the false ideas along with the good, because no matter how a commentator tries to present an unbiased and factual account, he will always slip in some of his own beliefs and doctrines.

[Habit7]

^^^True that, but it still a good avenue to formulate a hermeneutic principle so over time you will get the find out the errors in their understanding.

But one thing that goes without saying, you cannot fully understand the Bible unless you have come into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

So starting at Bible reading is a good way to understand the text but unless someone explains it to you it wouldn't make sense.

[rspann]

That makes sense but everyone who "explains it to you "puts their own spin to it,that is why it is important for the holy spirit to reveal it's meaning to you ,so that if thelowliest man without education or the most educated person reads it then they should get the same basic idea seeing that it was revealed by the same source.

[marlener]

I tend to agree with rspann here,while it might be helpful to have someone explain scripture to you,to often people try to replace the Holy Spirit as the ultimate teacher where the Bible is concern. To get the most out of the Bible prayer,a willingness to be lead by the Holy Spirit and a sincere desire to know God is required else it's possible that one might leave with a distorted view of God.

[Habit7]

Acts 8:25-40 So, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.

But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:

“He was led as a sheep to slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He does not open His mouth.
“In humiliation His judgment was taken away;
Who will relate His generation?
For His life is removed from the earth.”

The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.

[rspann]

I don't have a problem with that, as long as the one teaching knows what he's teaching. Remember that there is one scripture, but a thousand interpretations and thus a thousand Christian denominations. You will also agree that not all commentaries are correct, and often reflect a bias of the writer towards whatever denomination he belongs. Btw, what is your opinion on Matthew Henry's commentary, and what is your opinion of reading using strong's concordance as a study tool?

[Habit7]

There might be a thousand Christian denominations but there is only one faith, the true of those denominations is in not the sincerity of their worship but the extent to which they line up with the essential doctrines of Christianity.

That being said I find Matthew Henry's to be right in certain areas and a little off kilter in others, but he forms a great launch pad into the truths of God. Strong's concordance is also a good aid in Bible study. Nevertheless, only a Christian has the Holy Spirit as a guide to understanding. A true teacher of the Bible will have his bias, but as one comes to faith in Christ and how to interpret the Scriptures, they are free to align themselves with whatever denomination they see aligned with Christ. Christianity is not insular faith, the Christian relies on a teacher to inform them and the church to operate in.

[rspann]

Good explanation,and while we are on that topic,what about the extra biblical explanations by prophets and other visionaries, like E.G White and Branham etc ? They give interpretations and prophecies and also taught and still teach their flock by their books.

[Habit7]

I wonder if those who call themselves prophets (like the guy in the banner ads) are willing to live by this standard: Deuteronomy 18:21-22 But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Along with the inspiration, inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible, I believe in the sufficiency of Bible. Peter said in 2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. That being said, when E.G White and Branham etc. come with new truths or reinterpretations along with visions or prophecies, I am very skeptical. But specifically, with E.G White and Branham who mentioned, I have pointed out the thread prior the unscriptual teaching of E.G. White and the Adventist church I can do the same with Branham.

But there are so many false teachers out there in book, TV, internet, etc. that give ppl a wrong impression of Christianity. But this is consist with what Jesus prophesied that many false teachers will abound, and there is need for faithful Christians to confront the errors being taught.

[rocknrolla]

That makes sense but everyone who "explains it to you "puts their own spin to it,that is why it is important for the holy spirit to reveal it's meaning to you ,so that if thelowliest man without education or the most educated person reads it then they should get the same basic idea seeing that it was revealed by the same source.

i endorse this message. u run the risk of being misled when u take a teacher who is a scholar just like u. his faults in understanding will become urs and u may end up blocking out ur intuitive understanding to accept his.

[jsr]

anyone willing to pray for me

pm me