The Religion Discussion

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ slartibartafast, for your edification here, most of those were already addressed in this thread by Habit7, though not convincingly IMO
Hopefully he will address your concerns directly as well.

One issue I had was with star light. If the earth is 6,000-12,000 years old as the young earth creationists claim, how is it then that light from stars that are billions of light years away can reach us already?

Young earth creationists cunningly obfuscate anisotropic synchrony convention to suit their claims, claiming that light does not travel at the same speed all the time and infact light that is coming towards the earth travels at an infinite speed and light that is going away form the earth travels at a much slower speed. I say "cunning" since there is no real way to test this and even if it were true the universe would still look the same way it does to us using the "constant speed of light" convention.

The problem I have with this though is why would God make the earth appear to be billions of years old and set the furthest observable objects in space 13 billion light years away and make geology AND cosmology BOTH add up to the same age of the Earth as billions of years and not the actual 6000 years. Is God being deceptive? Is it a test of faith? What if God was being deceptive about other things too like the Bible to see if people would follow a book that wrongfully claimed it was his word?

[Habit7]

how do you expect to observe a process that takes place over tens of millions of years?

Well how can you say that someone else's position is wrong if you can't offer observable evidence?

YOur logic is flawed Are you going to accept that there is a distant planet made of cheese because you cannot observe that it does not exist? Or are you going to use the observable data that you do have, scientific research and calculations to determine the composition of far off planets?

That is a false analogy, nobody is referencing any planet of cheese. However you believe in the possibility of aliens despite having no evidence. Couldnt someone use that same logic and believe in the possibility of planet Cheese?

These people you are quoting like Dr Lisle, Dr Berlinski and Bryant Wood are all pseudo scientists attached to privately owned and funded organisations that support creationism and intelligent design. NONE of their work on the 6 day creation and claims against evolution is peer reviewed by the scientific community.

This video you posted is hilarious. Cows do not go to live in water over night to become whales. His statements show his ignorance of the science. Evolution happens very slowly over tens of millions of years, it is happening all now. Berlinski in another video stated his conspiracy theory that science is out to fool the world.

I think that it is very disingenuous of you to appeal to academia and when I recount those with advance degrees in their field from secular universities, you call them pseudo scientists. Really, who are you to determine the validity of their work? It is one thing for their peers to make this claim but just because you edify yourself with a Wikipedia article on the internet for 5mins does make you an expert and a determinant of truth. In fact, Dr Berlinski with his Ph.D. in philosophy from Princeton University and was later a postdoctoral fellow in mathematics and molecular biology at Colombia University, is not even a Christian, he is an agnostic.

He never said cows become whales (were you actually listening?). As much as you claim he has an ignorance of science ( when last you taught molecular biology at an Ivy league school?) you are obviously ignorant of Stephen Jay Gould and others theory of punctuated equilibrium which challenges the view that evolution is slow. But this is not the first time I mentioned this to you and it wont be the last.

Concerning the peer review, let me put that to rest:

it is ok to say "I do not know" instead of "God did it".

If you "dont know" how do you know what is better to say? Christians have been saying God did it from the outset based on the Bible and began modern science to find out how he did it. If this world is a result of time+matter+chance there should be no ordered, systematic models for us to observe. If the world is not intelligently design, how do we know that the science we are doing is just some fluke of observation limited to earth? But the atheist to theist inherently accepts intelligent design, just that some go out of their way to deny it.

lol @ bible archaeology / this is different from regular archaeology because they force evidence they find to fit with the bible?

Biblical Archaeology would obviously be archaeology specific to one of the best preserved documents of antiquity, the Bible. It is taught in many schools both secular and religious and sometimes goes under title Near Eastern Studies, or Palestinian archaeology. But I guess you probably knew that already

The British Museum retracted his finds.

Although subsequently the dating did not match, his research relied as well on other evidences which also align with the Bible. The British Museum's dating also runs into conflict with pottery at the site which was relatively dated differently. So Wood's argument is not debunked by the C14 dating.

I never claimed tissue was soft when discovered. The preservation of fossilized soft tissue challenges the belief of 65 million year old fossil dinosaurs. Mary Schweitzer, an evangelical christian, has had hre work been more scrutinized because some believe that she is producing work to support Young Earth Creationism. But she is not and that is ok. Because the age of the earth is not mentioned in the Bible.

[Habit7]

The main problem with the bible is that you assume it is correct before you ask a question about it. That is where I think that religious folk are blinded by faith and belief. You cannot start with an answer before you ask a question (my personal view, feel free to correct me).

Well by your last statement you have already began to frame your answer before you ask the question. All science is governed by axioms which are understood without empirical proof but flow out of the philosophy of science.

As Duane, said we have gone over much of what you brought up, and like others my time is valuable there many resources on the net to see the argument back and forth. But I don't want to cloud the issue with respect to the age of the Earth. There faithful Christians who believe in a young Earth and others who believe in an old. Nevertheless the Bible doesn't rise and fall on the age of the Earth.

BTW a look back at inconsistencies in the Bible
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bible- ... encies.pdf
There are 700 there to keep you busy. Happy Reading

Really?
this supposed to be inconsistencies?:
God curses the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. 3:17-18
God kills some animals and makes some skin coats for Adam and Eve. 3:21
"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD." 4:16

It seems you did the same thing I warned you not to, just grab something from the internet that could resolved from just reading the context. Here's what, bring you most glaring inconsistency in the Bible and we'll work our way down from there.

[Slartibartfast]

All science is governed by axioms which are understood without empirical proof but flow out of the philosophy of science.

I cannot stress how completely wrong this is. Science is all based on empirical evidence. There have been countless times when the teachings of science has been changed because of empirical observations.

eI think you are getting mixed up between hypotheses and theories. A hypothesis does flow out of the "philosophy of science". But this hypothesis must then be put through every test available before it have become a theory. Even then limitations are imposed on the theory due to the limitations of the experimental conditions and observations made (i.e. "empirical proof").

Here's what, bring you most glaring inconsistency in the Bible and we'll work our way down from there.

Why don't we just start from the beginning. You don't need to go much further to pick up inconsistencies in the bible anyway
Genesis Chapter 1
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Now with light created let's see what was on God's to do list on the fourth day
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.
16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

So he made light on day 1 but he made the only light giving bodies in the universe on day 4. Where did the light come from for the first 3 days?

You explain this and I'll move on to the next one

[Habit7]

Here is some 'light' reading: The Axiomatic Method in the Empirical Sciences, enjoy


Genesis 1:3 states the God is the creator of light. 2 Corinthians 4:6 reemphasizes that God is the source of light. Revelation 21:23 refers to in the future when God creates a new heaven and Earth, that God will be the source of light and that there will be no need for heavenly bodies to light our world. Thus from day 1 He was the source of light, but on day 4 "God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day." Genesis 1:17-19. But after God destroys the world in judgement and creates a new world, He will again be its source of light.

[Slartibartfast]

Here is some 'light' reading: The Axiomatic Method in the Empirical Sciences, enjoy

Ok it seems like we were misunderstanding each other. I'll break it down as simply as I can for you. Mathematics is axiomatic and most of science is based upon mathematics at some point (physics especially). Examples include mathematical operations such as addition and subtraction etc. because these were derived through philosophy and all that.

However this is only half of the story. Think of the axioms as the language of science. Yes science would not exist without it. It can be used to explain a lot of things in science. But science is based on careful and repetitive observations. Just google "the scientific method". You will see that science is based on empirical evidence.

Btw, that paper did not touch upon medicine or biology. Can you show me where that is based upon axioms without empirical evidence?

Genesis 1:3 states the God is the creator of light. 2 Corinthians 4:6 reemphasizes that God is the source of light. Revelation 21:23 refers to in the future when God creates a new heaven and Earth, that God will be the source of light and that there will be no need for heavenly bodies to light our world. Thus from day 1 He was the source of light, but on day 4 "God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day." Genesis 1:17-19. But after God destroys the world in judgement and creates a new world, He will again be its source of light.

Now tell me in your own words what do you think happened. Did God float up in the sky and turn the luminescence of his skin on and off for three days. Also, which part of the world is he talking about. Because we all know that it can only be day time on half of the earth at once.

[Crazydriver]

So I have a question, why do people say dogs don't have souls?

[rocknrolla]

So I have a question, why do people say dogs don't have souls?

because they schupid thas why. final answer.

[RBphoto]

Could god still be the light if he is a black guy?

[DJ]

So I have a question, why do people say dogs don't have soles?

Thats easy, because they dont wear shoes.

[Crazydriver]

So I have a question, why do people say dogs don't have soles?

Thats easy, because they dont wear shoes.

so horses have souls?

[Crazydriver]

Could god still be the light if he is a black guy?

God is asian dude...so he isn't 'light' he's yellow...they just say light because the sun is yellow/fire is yellow/tungsten glows yellow...

[Habit7]

Ok it seems like we were misunderstanding each other.

Well either that or you shifting the goalposts. When I said that science is governed by axioms you condemned my statement outright, but now that I showed you the scholarship you are saying I am 50% right. Maybe one day you will see the other 50%. But so as not to be lead off the path, I have nothing against empirical science, I use it to assess the validity of the Bible. However, I reject when some elevate theories in science to a near dogmatic position and use it to assess the validity of the Bible.

Now tell me in your own words what do you think happened.

My opinion on what happened is irrelevant. This is an exercise to prove the inconsistency of the Bible. Your first example not only failed to do that put proved the consummation of God's kingdom. I am still willing to continue if you have another.

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry about that confusion. Forget your opinion. Just explain to me, in your own words, what really happened during those first three days, without directly quoting the bible. So the question now reads

"Now tell me in your own words what really happened (according to the bible)"

[Slartibartfast]

Well either that or you shifting the goalposts. When I said that science is governed by axioms you condemned my statement outright, but now that I showed you the scholarship you are saying I am 50% right. Maybe one day you will see the other 50%. But so as not to be lead off the path, I have nothing against empirical science, I use it to assess the validity of the Bible. However, I reject when some elevate theories in science to a near dogmatic position and use it to assess the validity of the Bible.

Ok before we go on with this one. Let's reign in the argument a bit so that I can better prove my point through illustration. First answer the following questions as straightforward as you can and I will use your answers to show you what I meant.
1. How old is the Earth
2. How old is the Universe
3. What proof is there for answers 1 and 2

My opinion on what happened is irrelevant. This is an exercise to prove the inconsistency of the Bible. Your first example not only failed to do that put proved the consummation of God's kingdom. I am still willing to continue if you have another.

Sorry about that confusion. Forget your opinion. Just explain to me, in your own words, what really happened during those first three days, without directly quoting the bible. So the question now reads

"Now tell me in your own words what really happened (according to the bible)"

For the bible to be consistent this question must be answered

[Habit7]

Dude, you are violating your own principle:

You cannot start with an answer before you ask a question

as much as you claim I am entering the discussion with my bias that the Bible is correct, you are also entering with answer that the Bible is wrong before you ask any question about its thruth. You are failing to prove the Bible wrong against the parameters I said I judge all holy books by and your language is tripping over itself.

My opinion is irrelevant, is the Bible claims to be true, real or not?
You said not, prove why.

[Slartibartfast]

Im not asking for you opinion on anything. I am just asking you to explain as best as you could what is it that you were quoting. I'm still waiting on the answer.

[Habit7]

Any explanation I may give would be my postulation and would not be inerrant as the source I am quoting. If you want the mechanics of what the Scripture says, I dont know, honestly. As I said before it is a historical narrative, treat it as such, don't expect physics treatise on the creation of light.

You are still yet to prove the inconsistency of Bible. My explanation is inconsequential to consistency of Bible. I hope you get to the point after this because this not progressing anywhere.

[Slartibartfast]

I have stated an inconsistency. I am waiting on you to prove me wrong and show that the bible is in fact consistent. It's ok if you dont understand the explanation itself as long as there actually is an explanation.

[New_SPECIES]

__________________________________________________________________________

The question raised: ARE THERE CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE?


Answer: YES

____________________________________________________________________________

In my last statement on this thread I said that I would mention some contradictions in the Bible.

Since you all are in the middle of the topic...

I'll Just List a Few:

Contradiction #1
Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1).

Contradiction #2
In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel? (a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).

Contradiction #3
How many fighting men were found in Judah? (a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).

Contradiction #4
God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine? (a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13). (b) Three (1 Chronicles 21:12).

Contradiction #5
How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem? (a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26). (b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).

Contradiction #6
How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem? (a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8). (b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).

Contradiction #7
How long did he rule over Jerusalem? (a) Three months (2 Kings 24:8). (b) Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9).

Contradiction #8
The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time? (a) Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8). (b) Three hundred (1 Chronicles 11:11).

Contradiction #9
When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after? (a) After (2 Samuel 5 and 6). (b) Before (1 Chronicles 13 and 14).

Contradiction #10
How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark? (a) Two (Genesis 6:19, 20). (b) Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8, 9).

Contradiction #11
When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture? (a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4). (b) Seven thousand (1 Chronicles 18:4).

Contradiction #12
How many stalls for horses did Solomon have? (a) Forty thousand (1 Kings 4:26). (b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25).

Contradiction #13
In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die? (a) Twenty-sixth year (1 Kings 15:33 - 16:8). (b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1).

Contradiction #14
How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple? (a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2) (b) Three thousand three hundred (1 Kings 5:16).

Contradiction #15
Solomon built a facility containing how many baths? (a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26). (b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5).

Contradiction #16
Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab? (a) Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6). (b) Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11).

Contradiction #17
How many were the children of Zattu? (a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8) (b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13).

Contradiction #18
How many were the children of Azgad? (a) One thousand two hundred and twenty-two (Ezra 2:12). (b) Two thousand three hundred and twenty-two (Nehemiah 7:17). Contradiction #19
How many were the children of Adin? (a) Four hundred and fifty-four (Ezra 2:15). (b) Six hundred and fifty-five (Nehemiah 7:20).

Contradiction #20
How many were the children of Hashum? (a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:19). (b) Three hundred and twenty-eight (Nehemiah 7:22).

Contradiction #21
How many were the children of Bethel and Ai? (a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:28). (b) One hundred and twenty-three (Nehemiah 7:32).

Contradiction #22
Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows: (a) 29,818 (Ezra). (b) 31, 089 (Nehemiah).

Contradiction #23
How many singers accompanied the assembly? (a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65). (b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67).

Contradiction #24
What was the name of King Abijah's mother? (a) Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2). (b) Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20). But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27).

Contradiction #25
Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem? (a) Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40). (b) No (Joshua 15:63).

Contradiction #26
Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary? (a) Jacob (Matthew 1:16). (b) Heli (Luke 3:23).

Contradiction #27
Jesus descended from which son of David? (a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6). (b) Nathan (Luke 3:31).

Contradiction #28
Who was the father of Shealtiel? (a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12). (b) Neri (Luke 3:27).

Contradiction #29
Which son of Zerubbabel was an ancestor of Jesus Christ? (a) Abiud (Matthew 1:13). (b) Rhesa (Luke 3:27). But the seven sons of Zerubbabel are as follows: I. Meshullam, ii. Hananiah, iii. Hashubah, iv. Ohel, v. Berechiah, vi. Hasadiah, viii. Jushabhesed (1 Chronicles 3:19, 20). The names Abiud and Rhesa do not fit in anywhere.

Contradiction #30
Who was the father of Uzziah? (a) Joram (Matthew 1:8). (b) Amaziah (2 Chronicles 26:1).

Contradiction #31
Who as the father of Jechoniah? (a) Josiah (Matthew 1:11). (b) Jehoiakim (1 Chronicles 3:16).

Contradiction #32
How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ? (a) Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17). (b) But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1:12-16).

Contradiction #33
Who was the father of Shelah? (a) Cainan (Luke 3:35-36). (b) Arphaxad (Genesis 11:12).

Contradiction #34
Was John the Baptist Elijah who was to come? (a) Yes (Matthew 11:14, 17:10-13). (b) No (John 1:19-21).

Contradiction #35
Would Jesus inherit David's throne? (a) Yes. So said the angel (Luke 1:32). (b) No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1:11, 1 Chronicles 3:16). And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon David's throne (Jeremiah 36:30).

Contradiction #36
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on how many animals? (a) One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf. Luke 19:35). And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it." (b) Two - a colt and an ass (Matthew 21:7). They brought the ass and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon."

Contradiction #37
How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ? (a) By a revelation from heaven (Matthew16:17). (b) His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41).

Contradiction #38
Where did Jesus first meet Simon Peter and Andrew? (a) By the sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22). (b) On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42). After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43).

Contradiction #39
When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus' daughter already dead? (a) Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, "My daughter has just died." (b) No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death."

Contradiction #40
Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey? (a) Yes (Mark 6:8). (b) No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3).

Contradiction #41
Did Herod think that Jesus was John the baptist? (a) Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16). (b) No (Luke 9:9)

Contradiction #42
Did John the Baptist recognise Jesus before his baptism? (a) Yes (Matthew 3:13-14). (b) No (John 1:32, 33).

Contradiction #43
Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism? (a) Yes (John 1:32, 33). (b) No (Matthew 11:2).

Contradiction #44
According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness? (a) "If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true"(John 5:31). (b) "Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true" (John 8:14).

Contradiction #45
When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day? (a) Yes (Matthew 21:12). (b) No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark 11:1-17).

Contradiction #46
The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once? (a) Yes. (Matthew 21:19). (b) No. It withered overnight (Mark 11:20).

Contradiction #47
Did Judas kiss Jesus? (a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50). (b) No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12).

Contradiction #48
What did Jesus say about Peter's denial? (a) "The Rooster will not crow till you have denied me three times" (John 13:38). (b) "Before the Rooster crows twice you will deny me three times" (Mark 14:30). When the Rooster crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.

Contradiction #49
Did Jesus bear his own cross? (a) Yes (John 19:17). (b) No (Matthew 27:31-32).

Contradiction #50
Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn? (a) Yes (Matthew 27:50-51; Mark 15:37-38). (b) No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46).

Contradiction #51
Did Jesus say anything secretly? (a) No. "I have said nothing secretly" (John 18:20). (b) Yes. "He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything" (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him "Why do you speak to them in parables?" He said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matthew 13:10-11).

Contradiction #52
Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion? (a) On the cross (Mark 15:23). (b) In Pilate's court (John 19:14).

Contradiction #53
The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus. Did both thieves mock Jesus? (a) Yes (Mark 15:32). (b) No. One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43).

Contradiction #54
Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion? (a) Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). (b) No. He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17).

Contradiction #55
When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice? (a) Yes (Acts 9:7). (b) No (Acts 22:9).

Contradiction #56
When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground? (a) Yes (Acts 26:14). (b) No (Acts 9:7).

Contradiction #57
Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul's duties were to be? (a) Yes (Acts 26:16-18). (b) No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts 9:7; 22:10).

Contradiction #58
When the Israelites dwelt in Shittin they committed adultery with the daughters of Moab. God struck them with a plague. How many people died in that plague? (a) Twenty-four thousand (Numbers 25:1 and 9). (b) Twenty-three thousand (1 Corinthians 10:8).

Contradiction #59
How many members of the house of Jacob came to Egypt? (a) Seventy souls (Genesis 46:27). (b) Seventy-five souls (Acts 7:14).

Contradiction #60
What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus? (a) He bought a field (Acts 1:18). (b) He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5).

Contradiction #61
How did Judas die? (a) After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5). (b) After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18).

Contradiction #62
Why is the field called "Field of Blood"? (a) Because the priests bought it with the blood money (Matthew 27:8). (b) Because of the bloody death of Judas therein (Acts 1:19).

Contradiction #63
Who is a ransom for whom? (a) "The Son of Man came . . . to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). " . . . Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all . . . " (1 Timothy 2:5-6). (b) "The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright" (Proverbs 21:18).

Contradiction #64
Is the law of Moses useful? (a) Yes. "All scripture is . . . profitable . . ." (2 Timothy 3:16). (b) No. ". . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness . . . " (Hebrews 7:18).

Contradiction #65
What was the exact wording on the cross? (a) "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37). (b) "The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26) (c) "This is the King of the Jews" (Luke 23:38). (d) "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (John 19:19).

Contradiction #66
Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist? (a) Yes (Matthew 14:5). (b) No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20).

Contradiction #67
Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve? (a) Thaddaeus (Matthew 10:1-4; Mark 3:13-19). (b) Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke's gospel (Luke 6:12-16).

Contradiction #68
Jesus saw a man sitting at the tax collector's office and called him to be his disciple. What was his name? (a) Matthew (Matthew 9:9). (b) Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27).

Contradiction #69
Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after? (a) After (Mark 14:12-17). (b) Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 13:1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilate's judgement hall because they wanted to stay clean to eat the Passover (John 18:28). When the judgement was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14).

Contradiction #70
Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion? (a) Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42). (b) No. (John 12:27).

Contradiction #71
In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did he move away from his disciples to pray? (a) Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42). (b) One. No opening is left for another two times. (Luke 22:39-46).

Contradiction #72
Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times. What were the words of the second prayer? (a) Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:39). (b) Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42).

Contradiction #73
What did the centurion say when Jesus dies? (a) "Certainly this man was innocent" (Luke 23:47). (b) "Truly this man was the Son of God" (Mark 15:39).

Contradiction #74
When Jesus said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" in what language did he speak? (a) Hebrew: the words are "Eli, Eli . . . " (Matthew 27:46). (b) Aramaic: the words are "Eloi, Eloi . . . " (Mark 15:34).

Contradiction #75
According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died? (a) "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" (Luke 23:46). (b) "It is finished" (John 19:30).

Contradiction #76
When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion. Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this? (a) Yes (Matthew 8:5). (b) No. He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3, 6).

Contradiction #77
(a) Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17). (b) Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5).

Contradiction #78
(a) God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3). (b) Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16).

Contradiction #79
Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven? (a) No (John 3:13). (b) Yes. "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11).

Contradiction #80
Who was high priest when David went into the house of God and ate the consecrated bread? (a) Abiathar (Mark 2:26). (b) Ahimelech, the father of Abiathar (1 Samuel 21:1; 22:20).

Contradiction #81
Was Jesus' body wrapped in spices before burial in accordance with Jewish burial customs? (a) Yes and his female disciples witnessed his burial (John 19:39-40). (b) No. Jesus was simply wrapped in a linen shroud. Then the women bought and prepared spices "so that they may go and anoint him [Jesus]" (Mark 16:1).

Contradiction #82
When did the women buy the spices? (a) After "the sabbath was past" (Mark 16:1). (b) Before the sabbath. The women "prepared spices and ointments." Then, "on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment" (Luke 23:55 to 24:1).

Contradiction #83
At what time of day did the women visit the tomb? (a) "Toward the dawn" (Matthew 28:1). (b) "When the sun had risen" (Mark 16:2).

Contradiction #84
What was the purpose for which the women went to the tomb? (a) To anoint Jesus' body with spices (Mark 16:1;Luke 23:55 to 24:1). (b) To see the tomb. Nothing about spices here (Matthew 28:1). For no specified reason. In this gospel the wrapping with spices had been done before the sabbath (John 20:1).

Contradiction #85
A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb. Where was the stone when the women arrived? (a) They saw that the stone was "Rolled back" (Mark 16:4). They found the stone "rolled away from the tomb" (Luke 24:2). They saw that "the stone had been taken away from the tomb" (John 20:1) (b) As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women. Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6).

Contradiction #86
Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus' body? (a) Yes. "A young man in a white robe" (Mark 16:5). "Two men . . . in dazzling apparel" later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2). In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote). (b) No. Mary met no one and returned saying, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him" (John 20:2).

Contradiction #87
When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react? (a) Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb. They took hold of his feet and worshiped him (Matthew 28:9). (b) On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus' body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him "Teacher." Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me . . . " (John 20:11 to 17).

Contradiction #88
What was Jesus' instruction for his disciples? (a) "Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me" (Matthew 28:10). (b) "Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17).

Contradiction #89
When did the disciples return to Galilee? (a) Immediately, because when they saw Jesus in Galilee "some doubted" (Matthew 28:17). This period of uncertainty should not persist. (b) After at least 40 days. That evening the disciples were still in Jerusalem (Luke 24:33). Jesus appeared to them there and told them, "stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). He was appearing to them "during forty days" (Acts 1:3), and "charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise . . . "(Acts 1:4).

Contradiction #90
To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph? (a) "To the Ishmaelites" (Genesis 37:28). (b) "To Potiphar, an officer of Pharoah" (Genesis 37:36).

Contradiction #91
Who brought Joseph to Egypt? (a) The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then "took Joseph to Egypt" (Genesis 37:28). (b) "The Midianites had sold him in Egypt" (Genesis 37:36). Joseph said to his brothers "I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt" (Genesis 45:4).

Contradiction #92
Does God change his mind? (a) Yes. The word of the Lord came to Samuel: "I repent that I have made Saul King . . ." (1 Samuel 15:10 to 11). (b) No. God "will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent" (1 Samuel 15:29). (c) Yes. "And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel" (1 Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions: I. The Lord was sorry that he made man" (Genesis 6:6). " I am sorry that I have made them" (Genesis 6:7) ii."And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people" (Exodus 32:14) iii.(Lots of other such references).

Contradiction #93
The Bible says that for each miracle Moses and Aaron demonstrated the same by their secret arts. Then comes the following feat: (a) Moses and Aaron converted all the available water into blood (Exodus 7:20-21). (b) The magicians did the same (Exodus 7:22). This is impossible, since there would have been no water left to convert into blood.

Contradiction #94
Who killed Goliath? (a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50). (b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).

Contradiction #95
Who killed Saul? (a) "Saul took his own sword and fell upon it. . . . Thus Saul died... (1 Samuel 31:4-6). (b) An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1-16).

Contradiction #96
Does every man sin? (a) Yes. "There is no man who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and 1 John 1:8-10). (b) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God.

Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God . . (1 John 5:1). "We should be called children of God; and so we are" (1 John 3:1). "He who loves is born of God" (1 John 4:7). "No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

Contradiction #97
Who will bear whose burden? (a) "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). (b) "Each man will have to bear his own load" (Galatians 6:5).

Contradiction #98
How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection? (a) Twelve (1 Corinthians 15:5). (b) Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:33).

Contradiction #99
Where was Jesus three days after his baptism? (a) After his baptism, "the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days . . . (Mark 1:12-13). (b) Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee — two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11).

Contradiction #100
Was baby Jesus's life threatened in Jerusalem? (a) Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 - 23). (b) No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40).


............. knock yourself out!

[Habit7]

It is just as easy to look up contradictions in the Bible as it is to look up its answers:
101 Cleared-up Contradictions in the Bible http://www.debate.org.uk/debate-topics/ ... /contrads/

New_SPECIES glad to see you back , did you find out who was right between you and Ibn Kathir on whether or not Allah of the Quran caused the crucifiction and started the biggest religion in world.

[instigator]

Precisely true..the Quran is without doubt the Only unchanged book from its origin till, that has been admired throughout.

The fastest growing religion in the world is Islam ..

The most educated countries has had the most converts.
The question is why?

Tho matter how much the media portraits the muslim as a traditional violent people..

Interesting..

[bluefete]

The problem I have with this though is why would God make the earth appear to be billions of years old and set the furthest observable objects in space 13 billion light years away and make geology AND cosmology BOTH add up to the same age of the Earth as billions of years and not the actual 6000 years. Is God being deceptive? Is it a test of faith? What if God was being deceptive about other things too like the Bible to see if people would follow a book that wrongfully claimed it was his word?

Time is relative. If we can travel at light speed or beyond, great distances would be short.

We are primitive in our travel arrangements at this time in our development so the farthest objects seem really really far (billions of years away).

One day, this will not be so.

The age of the earth is not given in the bible. A time line of creation is given. We are also told that a day with God is like 1,000 years. But God is timeless so it is possible that the earth can be very old. As a matter of fact, the earth existed before many of God's other creations. Read Genesis 1

[Habit7]

Precisely true..the Quran is without doubt the Only unchanged book from its origin till, that has been admired throughout.

‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944

Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it: "Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and "that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13). Sahih Muslim 2286

The fastest growing religion in the world is Islam ..

This is mostly by birth rate and not by proselytisation. This also does not take into account that in some countries it is either litigious, illegal or punishable by death to leave Islam. Furthermore, certain countries censor their population from any other religious persuasion other than Islam.


Why is it when the topic is atheism vs theism the Muslims are silent in the thread. But when the topic is the validity of the Bible, they come out of hiding? Is it that Islam is deficient in that area?

[New_SPECIES]

New_SPECIES glad to see you back , did you find out who was right between you and Ibn Kathir on whether or not Allah of the Quran caused the crucifiction and started the biggest religion in world.

Actually I not really “back” because I have a few projects going on right now, only have ‘off and on’ spare time...

I must admit one thing though...

In one of my last posts, I think I called the people who ‘crucified’ Jesus ‘Romans’ or something like that...
(I was trying to look for the page to quote myself..... but it doesn’t really matter)

I made a mistake there... I wasn’t trying to define which group of people really was involved; I was really trying to make another point. But due to my mistake in stating ‘Romans’ the point I was making got shadowed.

I am not a leader in a particular religion nor do I consider myself to be a Highly Educated Scholar in the religion, so there will be the rare occasion when I state something wrong etc... So I admit to an error.


Anyway, stating that Christianity is the biggest religion in the world to me is a bit misguided...

Because there are so many sects under the umbrella of Christianity that totally disagree with each other although they claim to follow the same teachings.

Even your arguments of ‘Trinity God’ etc are not believed by some sects under your ‘Christianity Umbrella’.
They even vary in beliefs as to how people should dress, what they should eat, how they pray, and many religious procedures...

So.... if you minus these sects (who don’t share your view), then take a tally, how then can you accurately make a statement like “the biggest religion in the world”?

Because to you and the leaders in your sect, those others are misguided! Even though they fall under the "Christianity Umbrella".

Just my opinion!

I think that you should not focus on what is the Biggest religion in the world....
But rather you should pay attention to what is the Fastest Growing religion in the world!

Because if a vast ocean of water decreases by one drop everyday.... then one day, there will be no ocean!



NOW, In terms of these Contradictions...


Let me just refer to Contradiction #1, as follows:

Question: Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

Answer from the Bible: (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) ..... (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1)


Now to summarize what your “Christian Websites” are saying... their explanations basically state that initially God incited David to count the fighting men because he wanted David to trust him (God) and not the number of his men.

But then they (your Christian Websites) said that God USED satan to incite David or ALLOWED Satan to incite David.

They also said that “God's authority extends even over Satan. God can use Satan to accomplish His ultimate will by simply giving permission to Satan to do that which Satan already desires to do.”

.........and that’s how your websites “clears up” the contradiction!


So that then raises numerous questions:

(1) If God can occasionally “control satan” then why allow satan to cause his creation to commit sin?

(2) If God can occasionally “allow” satan to do what he desires then why bestow punishment on man for sins that God “allowed”?

(3) If God does occasionally “control” or “allow” satan, then what is “Free Will” to do right or wrong?

[New_SPECIES]

And Just to clear up another misconception:

The Quran does give reference to the Bible and many verses are the same in the Bible and the Quran.

But what creates the misguidance in Christianity is that they Wrote Over the Bible after the man died!

(I know you will reply by saying: “that was dealt with already”, but I’m just making a point.)


The Bible that the Quran would refer to is the one in its Original Form.

Not the one tainted with scriptures that the leaders of that time wanted you to believe!


Some of the “NEW” orders in the “Latest Edition” of the Bible even contradicts what Prophet Jesus used to preach...


Just an Example:

Original Bible – A statement preached while Jesus was Alive: “Don’t Eat Pork”

New Bible (wrote over) – New Rules Amended by man: “All meat Allowed”


(you also dealt with that already, right?.... like I said it is my view, my point!)

[Habit7]

Let me disabuse your notion that Christianity is sectarian and Islam isn't. There is the two major sects of Sunni and Shiite in which there is no love lost and great violence between them. Sufis, Baha’is, Ahmadiyyas, Druze, Alevis, and `Alawis also each consider themselves Muslim though you might not. I would admit that Christianity allows for freedom for disassociation based out of the lessons learn from the Reformation in the 15th century which saw a rebirth of Christianity out of an unbiblical, oppressive, malevolent empire that went with the title Roman Catholic. Christians may not all unite under an umbrella organisation, neither do Islamists. But a Christian is measured by the essential claims of the Bible and at the end of the day, God will prune his vineyard and reap His harvest.
Plus if you use affirmation of the doctrine of the Trinity as measure of orthodoxy within Christianity (which it is one of them) trinitarians still vastly outnumber non-trinitarians.

1)Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1:12-18

2)Firstly as James says, sin occurs when we of our own volition choose to do what is wrong, regardless of who is tempting. Therefore God is just in punishing or rewarding a man for his deeds. Secondly, though the means might appear evil to the one committing it, God can still use it to bring forth good, as in Satan's interaction with Job, Joseph being sold into slavery but then becoming governor of Egypt and most importantly, Jesus being crucified by men but then becomes the Saviour of all men who believe.

3)Who said anything about free will? We have a corrupted will, a will that wants to do evil long before Satan arrives to tempt us.

The Quran does give reference to the Bible and many verses are the same in the Bible and the Quran.

This last clause is not true. There is no place where the Quran quotes the Bible which precedes it.

But what creates the misguidance in Christianity is that they Wrote Over the Bible after the man died!

Contemporary Muslims make this claim but the Quran doesnt. Muhammed assumes the Gospels are from Allah and they corroborate Islam. He told the Christians to read it (the Bible they possessed at that time) and it would confirm what he is saying. Subsequently, literate Muslims read the Gospels and found the Quran contradicting it and then summarized that it must have been changed. However, the Bible was in complete form and in broad distribution 400 yrs before Islam. No one changed it.

Original Bible – A statement preached while Jesus was Alive: “Don’t Eat Pork”

Jesus said: “Hear and understand. It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” Matthew 15:10-11
Your food doesnt condemn you, your deeds do.

[sMASH]

What Paul(saul )wrote is not no gospel. And the verification of present gospels if motto actual fool proof.

But spiritual defiling has nothing to do with physical defiling or disobedience .
What you think say and do will earn u sin as u disobey god. But not all things are just for your soul. If you believe in the abrahamic religions then u also have restrictions on merely physical things like food.
The restriction on food is symbolic, analogous and meant to train you and get you accustomed to refraining from indulging in things you enjoy for the sake of god.

Not all hints that seem good are meant for us to partake of.

[ruffneck_12]

[New_SPECIES]

Let me disabuse your notion that Christianity is sectarian and Islam isn't.

I never said that other religions don’t have sects within it.

I was trying to say that although there are people under the Christian Umbrella that (to you) is misguided... You are still “counting” them as part of your tally to prove that you are a part of the largest religion.


If you believe and you are steadfast, that what you believe is the truth then how can you say that other “disassociated people” (that u called them) is a part of your same belief, (under Christianity).

Then you “count” them to make up a large number under Christianity only to tell the world: “I’m a part of the Largest religion in the world!”

It is the same, if I should put all the people in the world who believe that there is a god and name it a religion.
Then say I am part of the biggest organization in the world!

If the people (under Christianity) have various beliefs, views, practises, etc, then how can it be one religion?

So all I have to do is say the name “Jesus” in my prayer.... and I’m under “Christian Umbrella”?...................Although I have different practices, rituals, beliefs.


Anyone can wake up one morning and say: “You know what... today I’ll call myself a Christian!”

Then tomorrow wake up and say: “Today I’ll call myself a Muslim!”

Does that make them apart of the Actual TRUE religion and what is really stands for?

Well... that is the reason why Muslims don’t accept others who claim to be a part of Islam but don’t adhere to the basic rule and foundation...
(ie. Allah is the Arabic name for the One God that exist, and Prophet Muhammad was the Last and Final Messenger)

That is also the reason why Terrorists are NOT Muslims...
....... even though that they might say they are!