The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

But scientists do not claim that their belief, models, hypotheses and theories are absolute, they change it when new evidence is found.

However you see it as absolute enough to discredit the Bible and even further to deny its supernatural accounts. I have been constantly trying to show you this but even in this very post you use the theoretical age of the Earth as being more absolute than it actually is.

and it is NOT the same message. At one point biblical scholars taught that the world was flat and universe geocentric.

Those who taught the Earth was flat was not teaching based on any deduction from the Bible, it was based on the current intellectual viewpoint not the Bible. The Bible teaches the spherical shape of the Earth (Isaiah 40:22), a simultaneous worldwide event occurring in one place where there is day and another place it is night (Luke 17:34-36) and the Earth suspended in space (Job 26:7). You scoff at the idea that Christians have a bias over the Bible rather than science but this is why they have to, because sometimes science gets it wrong.

Also Galileo was vilified by the Catholic Church for his heliocentric views, but in his defence he stated heliocentrism was consistent with the Bible, not with the Catholic doctrine that makes the church's view equal with the Bible. Those who believe in geocentrism were not informed by the Bible but by popular intellect.

Today Young earth creationists believe that the earth is ~6000 years old when even their contemporaries agree with the vast scientific evidence that the earth is billions of years old.

YEC dont believe in the Earth being "~6000 years old" they believe in the Earth being not younger than 6000 years and no older than a few thousand years (I have never hear anyone exceed 20,000 years old) Old Earth Creationists believe in a 4 billion year old Earth with whatever configuration each camp has. The fact is the Bible does not dictate the age of the Earth, we can deductively establish the age from within the Bible and back it up with scientific evidence or establish the age outside of the Bible with scientific theory and look for biblical evidence for such a view.

At the end of the day, whether YEC or OEC, Christians believe God created the Earth supernaturally. The difference in views of age of the Earth is no more superficial than Dawkins saying there is faith in science and you disagreeing with him or the Stephen Jay Gould who says there is bias with scientists to the Duane that says scientists aren't biased to the Duane who says scientists are subjective. Nevertheless, Dawkins, Gould, Duane from earlier on in thread and Duane from a couple pages ago all believe in Darwinian Evolution.

wrt the highlighted statement - how many of that resulted in the advancement of science in the past century?

to name a few: Albert Einstein, Lord Kelvin, George Washington Carver, William Henry Bragg, Wernher von Braun, Arthur Eddington and the list goes on and on. I dont know what point you are trying to make but it can't be that the biblical deductions hampers science because the opposite is quite evident.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ I am only questioning your claims, not absolutely stating it is wrong. There are many good and right things in the Bible and Qur'an and Gita etc etc.

You also have deduction from the Bible and claim it as fact, such as your belief that the earth is ~6000 years old and that dinosaurs walked with man when scientific evidence shows the earth is billions of years old and dinosaurs and man lived millions of years apart.

Einstien was raised in a Jewish home but considered himself agnostic.

you are the one making absolute claims, so you cannot say an absolute claim is superficial.

[Habit7]

^^^Well according to you that is just your opinion

BTW Einstein was still "influenced by the Bible."

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details."
Albert Einstein 1905

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ it is amazing how you extrapolate these conclusions.

BTW Einstein was still "influenced by the Bible."

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details."
Albert Einstein 1905

The man said that and you claim he was influenced by the Bible?

In his Autobiographical Notes, Einstein wrote that he had gradually lost his faith early in childhood:
". . . I came—though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents—to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true."

Einstein expressed his skepticism regarding an anthropomorphic deity, often describing it as "naïve" and "childlike". He stated, "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously.

Duane I believe absolute truth is knowable

You quoted Isaiah 40:22
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

Regarding absolute truth: The earth is not a circle. A circle is not a sphere. Actually the earth is more like an oblate spheroid. People are not like grasshoppers. By heavens I assume they are talking about the sky and space, both of which are not like a canopy nor like a tent.

You do this extreme extrapolation and call it exegesis and refer to biblical hermeneutics. Yet you dismiss peer reviewed scientific theory as guesswork.

I would think Isaiah could get these things right if he had the ability to write about earth being a planet in space.

[Habit7]

Well proper hermeneutics does not establish a doctrine from one verse as you are attempting with Isaiah 40:22. However, I gave you three Bible verses showing the circular profile of the Earth with a spherical shape (for basic scientific understanding the Earth is explained as a sphere) all being suspended in space (Isaiah 40:22, Luke 17:34-36, Job 26:7). This was all in response to your claim that "biblical scholars taught that the world was flat and universe geocentric."

The onus is on you to point out these Bible scholars who thought the world was flat and geocentric not just by the common intellectual position shared by non-christians and atheists alike, but by the Bible; giving reference to where in the Bible teaches a flat and geocentric Earth.

Furthermore, I dont see peer reviewed scientific theory as guesswork, I just do see it as infallible as you do. As such, as a scientist I also employ my ability to logic and reason as do my peers and I conclude that some theories are not correct. Much like defeated scientific theories like continental drift and expanding Earth, you are allowed to disagree with theories, that have been peer reviewed, long before the scientific communities comes to the consensus that they are wrong.

[nareshseep]

[pseudorandom]

Isa Ibn Maryam is Son of Mary.. Jesus!

Correct!

35 It is not befitting to Allah that he should sire a son[4]. Glory be to him! When he determines a matter, he only says to it, be, and it is.

36 Truly Allah is my Lord and your Lord: therefore serve him. This is a way that is straight.

Al-Kitab is the knowledge that would be bestowed to us in the form of a book. it is the Christian Bible! professing by Allah himself that Jesus was INDEED his son! and it is a matter they vainly dispute! Here in Surah 19, Allah is listing his prophets and i will summarize them later.. but read on about those who reject Christ/Isa.

The Al-Kitab here, called Injil (Gospel) in other parts of the Quran, no longer exists in its original form. The Quran refers to one Gospel that was revealed to Jesus, yet we have 4 Gospels in the Christian Bible, and there are even a number of "lost Gospels." Al-kitab here refers to the original message of Allah passed through Jesus, not the man written Gospels as we see in the Christian Bible today. Since the Christian Bible as we know today is not the Al-Kitab being referred here, the claim cannot be made that Allah calls Jesus his son.

Your above quote verse 35 proves it "It is not befitting to Allah that he should sire a son."

Also Surah 4 An-Nisa

Quran 4:171
O People of the Scripture. Do not overstep the bounds in your religious beliefs, and do not say of God anything but the truth. The Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was but God's Apostle - His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary - and a soul created by Him. Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, "three (trinity)". Desist for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God

Allah clearly rejects the idea of having a son, and clarified that Jesus is a Prophet.

41 Also mention in Al-Kitab the story of Ibrahim: he was a man of truth, a prophet.

42 Behold, he said to his father: O my father! Why worship that which hears not and sees not, and can profit you nothing?

43 O my father! To me has come knowledge which has not reached you: so follow me: I will guide you to a way that is even and straight.

44 O my father! Serve not Satan: for Satan is a rebel against Allah most gracious.

45 O my father! I fear lest a penalty affect you from Allah most gracious, so that you become to Satan a friend.

46 The father replied: do you hate my gods, O Ibrahim? If you forbear not, I will Indeed stone you: Now get away from me for a good long while!

47 Ibrahim said: peace be on you: I will pray to my Lord for your forgiveness: for he is to me most gracious.

i unfortunately did not see Muhammad in Allah's list of prophets. See that in verse 46, Allah refers to his prophets, including Jesus as "My Gods"

I am not seeing that. I am seeing Abraham's father talking about his gods (idols) that he worships. Perhaps you are confusing the word "father" with Allah when the story clearly talks about Abraham's biological father.

As for Allah's list of Prophets - you can't just quote one tiny part of the Quran and expect it to be an all inclusive list of all Prophets. See surah 33 Al-Ahzab

Quran 33:40
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing."

Muslims accept Jesus as a Prophet of Allah. Whoever rejects Jesus is not a Muslim.

[AdamB]

Rocknrolla / turbotusty doesn't realize that Islam is not a pelau, that we have firm knowledge in that which we believe.

He sees that a verse says that "you" are given glad tidings of a son...the you is Mary. It is an insult to GOD to lower HIM to our level that HE would NEED a son.

[AdamB]

Habit7 wrote:

Duane I believe absolute truth is knowable

Yeah...it's called Islam.

[rocknrolla]

you have taken muhammed's words over those of allah. it is very clear that you are the one taking things out of context. read and comprehend.

"it is is not befitting for Allah to sire a son, for he only has to say to a thing, "Be", and it is"

note.. Allah did not mate with a human woman.. he says it to "be" that she bares a child of God, a sinless man, regarded by Allah as a Prophet, A God, and a son of God.

Allah has sired a Son and "they vainly dispute it"

further evidence of this is provided in the story of Mary and how she was asked to go into seclusion, where she drew a screen/curtain (for privacy) and met with an angel of Allah who performs his will and fertilizes Mary's womb.. WITHOUT the need for an actual man. it was a spiritual fertilization, and thus a virgin birth. no man had touched her.

when the angel appears to Mary, she becomes frightened and begins to pray to Allah for protection. the angel tells her do not be afraid and that he is here to perform God's will.

Allah has sired a Son by his will!

again, Allah has listed his prophets. muhhamad in any of his names wasnt one on the list. it seems muhammad has attempted to hijack a claim to divinity. and is the reason many are misled. Mohammed speaks against Jesus, and God warns us that any who speak against Jesus are not of him.

your claims about al-kitab are also partially unfounded. indeed all of al-kitab is not present in the christian bible. however, many of jesus' teachings were captured by his apostles and written in their testimony. this is why there are multiple gospels. to put back together al-kitab after parts of it were lost.

i tell you it takes away none from Jesus/Isa's teachings and how good they are. now place them against muhammad, who was a liar and a murderer. Jesus also warned us about these types of people who call them selves prophets, but lie and kill. and further adds that we shall know them by their fruit. if u have to ask me where any of these things are said in the quran, you have not read your quran. read the whole thing. taking lines out of context to reference with muhammad wont work with me. muhammad is a false prophet, in every regard of the word! believe!

if u dont read your entire koran, you might find that i will surpass u in every regard, having already read the entire christian bible, and have begun with the quran. u would not believe the things i see.

muhammad is a tool of creating a militaristic force. a great temptation on mankind, and all who fight will not be forgiven. it is written. followers of muhammad's teachings are being tricked into fighting the true saviour upon his return.

muhammad has a great deal of nonsensical claims, "say not trinity", and all such things are aimed at driving a wedge between man and their salvation. to deny jesus was a son of God, a prophet and a God. when the quran says these things from the mouth of Allah himself!!

shall i quote for you where Allah regards jesus as a prophet. how could a prophet of the true God speak against another prophet of God. it simply shall not happen. you look to the quran for proof. then look to it and separate muhammad's teachings from the quran and see what you are left with. Jesus all over the place.

i am beginning to see muhammad as nothing more than a political tool. a method for controlling the masses by having them abandon salvation. it is a dirty trick, because those who seek power over men are able to inflict their evil wills on those who have abandoned righteousness, since having abandoned true salvation they are no longer under the watchful eye of God. it gives them free reign to rule however they please without worry of God's backlash.

it says God has no partner. but who is the Holy Spirit? or his angels? why did Allah have to send an angel to perform his will. could he not do it himself? are the angels and prophets not partners in God as god refers to them as "My Gods".

Jesus message is that we can all become like him.. like Gods. and i think from my reading and analysis of the bible that message was brought forth very clear, regardless of any missing doctrines. he also teaches that we can accomplish this by obeying the commandments, living a life of righteousness and faith, and prayer!

then we have muhammad's teachings:

kill all infidels.

umm i dont think God commands anyone to kill anyone. if God so wanted a soul all he needs to do is snatch it. muhammad's teachings are the reason for conflict and it is very clear in surah 19 if u would analyse it consistently, that these sects fight amongt themselves as they dispute whether Allah sired a son.

how does one obey the commandments, while killing all infidels? Allah set the commandments. muhammad says kill infidels. who do u really listen to? who do u follow? a man? or Allah's instruction?

[rocknrolla]

i see God's love, in forseeing all and preparing for it. for men's will are free and some will serve God and some will care not for serving God. Abraham was tested by God constantly through his life. and as his faith grew little by little, the tests grew harder with the ultimate test of killing his own son. which God stops him at the last moment. it was all a test. so that man would know, just how hard it is, for one to sacrifice his son for a greater good. it was a foreshadowing and teaching of what God was going to do. sacrifice his only 'sired/begotten' son for us to have a path to salvation.

only through abraham's obedience did we earn this right through abraham's bloodline. which by having faith and showing full obedience to God, made his descendants(mary) WORTHY of siring Allah's Son! Abraham's willingness to kill his Son for God, allowed God's willingness to sacrifice his son for us!

you still say Allah had no Son?

[rocknrolla]

Rocknrolla / turbotusty doesn't realize that Islam is not a pelau, that we have firm knowledge in that which we believe.

He sees that a verse says that "you" are given glad tidings of a son...the you is Mary. It is an insult to GOD to lower HIM to our level that HE would NEED a son.

you only respond now in hope that your ally's detraction is strong enough to refute me. you do not care for the truth. but only to seem right. a false appearance. just like your prophet muhammad. i tell u now. he is no prophet of God, but a scallywag. more inline with the canaanites as esau was, brother of jacob.

i have told u i know what salvation is. and that i have retained it. unfortunately there is no easier way to say it that will trouble you less. you do not understand your own faith.

u speak of my pelau. it is a good stew. so good that esau sold his birthright to jacob for a pot of it.

if there is no connection. why does the quran mention Jesus as son of mary? is this not a biblical teaching. half the socalled muslims did not even read their quran to discover that there was the name jesus in it a million times. they only read passages from muhammad. ignoring the word of Allah himself. fools.

[HOPE4ALL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMaWCEQFBso <<< explain

[sMASH]

you still say Allah had no Son?

Thou shall have no other gods but me

[solidust]

Late Arrivals Welcome

I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. —Matthew 20:14

One night when I visited a nursing home, a resident named Tom slipped out quietly from his room, hoping to catch me to chat. After we talked awhile, he asked, “Won’t God be insulted if I become a Christian this late in life?” Tom’s question wasn’t a surprise. As a chaplain, I often hear it in varying forms from the elderly, from those who struggle with addictions, from former prisoners. They think they have a legitimate reason to believe it’s too late for them to know God or to be used by Him.

Tom and I spent time exploring people in Scripture who, because of their past, could have thought it was too late for them to know God. But Rahab, a prostitute (Josh. 2:12-14; Heb. 11:31), and Zacchaeus, a tax collector (Luke 19:1-8), chose faith in God despite their past.

We also looked at Jesus’ parable of workers in the vineyard (Matt. 20:1-16). The earlier the hire, the more labor they were able to give the vineyard owner (vv.2-7), but those hired later discovered they had equal value in the owner’s eyes and would be rewarded equally (vv.8-16). The vineyard owner chose to be gracious to them all.

No matter our past or present, God longs to show us His grace and bring us into relationship with Him. Randy Kilgore

Father, we are amazed at Your grace! Thank You that
we can come to You at any time for forgiveness and be
restored to relationship with You. Thank You that we
can now be used by You to touch the lives of others.

To give your life to Christ now is to keep it forever.


http://odb.org/2013/06/30/late-arrivals-welcome/

[HOPE4ALL]

sheeps will here his voice

[maj. tom]

sheeps will here his voice

[HOPE4ALL]

The heart of hypocrisy >> Thus, the goal of such a person is to be seen. They are on stage and seek to ingratiate themselves to the audience and win applause. Hence they engage in some action “in order that people may see them.” It is clear that this is ultimately very sad. A lonely actor on a stage performing whatever role is required in order to win approval from the current audience. Their inner core or deepest self is repressed and replaced by the demands of others. This is the true heart of and description of hypocrisy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

[AdamB]

Hope4all,

What MajTom has said is "What possible credibility could you have, when you don't even know the usage of simple words in the English language which we presume is your mother tongue?"

[HOPE4ALL]

thou shall not judge, puck the shine out your own eye first before you can puck the shine out of your brother eye, to judge one must put there self on trial first....

[ruffneck_12]

SATAN IS THE ONE TRUE GOD

#truthments #satanismr00lz #hashtagsontuner #swag #bodow #YOLO

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

SATAN IS THE ONE TRUE GOD

#truthments #satanismr00lz #hashtagsontuner #swag #bodow #YOLO

can you prove this?
Can you even prove Satan exists?

[HOPE4ALL]

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ what does that video have to do with religion?

[rocknrolla]

SATAN IS THE ONE TRUE GOD

#truthments #satanismr00lz #hashtagsontuner #swag #bodow #YOLO

satan is Ruler of the material and materialism which is temporary and always changing/corrupted/broken down. but is not the God of the eternal immaterial world.

satan did not create the universe, but is a manifestation of the universe's creation.

no one can serve two masters. the boss is the original source of consciousness, which he uses to create atoms into existence by creating light and sound and willing it into form.

at the end of the day.. satan is doing his job. a task assigned by God. let's hope we are all doing our respective jobs. satan's post is already filled.

[Chimera]

saw this on a facebook page lol

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

SATAN IS THE ONE TRUE GOD

#truthments #satanismr00lz #hashtagsontuner #swag #bodow #YOLO

satan is Ruler of the material and materialism which is temporary and always changing/corrupted/broken down. but is not the God of the eternal immaterial world.

satan did not create the universe, but is a manifestation of the universe's creation.

no one can serve two masters. the boss is the original source of consciousness, which he uses to create atoms into existence by creating light and sound and willing it into form.

at the end of the day.. satan is doing his job. a task assigned by God. let's hope we are all doing our respective jobs. satan's post is already filled.

what is satan's job?

[bluefete]

what is satan's job?

To create disharmony in the earth. To confuse people enough to make them doubt that God either does not exist or cannot be proven to exist.

How do you think he will do on a performance appraisal report?

[rocknrolla]

to tempt man. why do u have to ask me that? we are supposed to resist temptation. satan works through reality, as u carry about ur day, the interfaces u come across and the choices u make, honourable, dishonourable, etc. every choice is part of an ongoing test throughout daily life. making the right choices award you spiritual points. something i refer to as the spiritual bank. keep your good deeds on earth in significant weight over ur sins and aspire to increase the gap.

there is also another type of sin very important. and this is to act in accordance with a decision that offends the truth of ur spirit. to avoid this sin is to be true to oneself. true both externally in public view and internally where noone else can see.

[maj. tom]