The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

^^^Well that is what we have been trying to say, he doesn't make sense, yet you repeat his arguments as some credible counterpoint.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ is your argument against AdamB or against Islam?

Islam states Jesus existed but gives no evidence that he was the son of God or God himself.

^ yet you repeat his arguments as some credible counterpoint.

only because both his and yours are deeply based in faith for the most part.

[AdamB]

^^^that is the historical zaniness Duane wants to equate with the historical fact of Jesus' existence.

You just don't get it, that's the point. There is no historical FACT of Jesus' existence. The evidence I am speaking of.

You take the Trinity for fact and don't question it but I do and the same way I question the supposed "facts" of Jesus' existence....which none exists.

[rocknrolla]

AdamnB didnt say Jesus didnt exist. He is saying there is no evidence that Jesus was the son of God, or God himself.

no Adam b did say there is no proof that Jesus existed.... I will find it

hahahahah i cant remember, i hope adam b never said that! that would be sad.. sad indeed!

i have been away.. duane banned me for 2 weeks but this comment. is a problem for someone who says they are a muslim.

[Habit7]

^ yet you repeat his arguments as some credible counterpoint.

only because both his and yours are deeply based in faith for the most part.

The more you continue to repeat his zany claims and I refute it with historical facts, the more your mischaracterisation of me appealing to blind faith sounds like someone who has lost the debate.


BTW have you been able to summarise how everything we can observe in nature came into existence by a natural process? Because I dont know if they taught you that yet in naturalism school but, you will have to accept by faith that there is an explanation for that, right?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

AdamnB didnt say Jesus didnt exist. He is saying there is no evidence that Jesus was the son of God, or God himself.

no Adam b did say there is no proof that Jesus existed.... I will find it

hahahahah i cant remember, i hope adam b never said that! that would be sad.. sad indeed!

i have been away.. duane banned me for 2 weeks but this comment. is a problem for someone who says they are a muslim.

I didn't ban you.

[megadoc1]

^ is your argument against AdamB or against Islam?

Islam states Jesus existed but gives no evidence that he was the son of God or God himself.

^ yet you repeat his arguments as some credible counterpoint.

only because both his and yours are deeply based in faith for the most part.

Duane,can you tell us exactly what part of these faith based arguments allows for you use adam b's argument as a credible counterpoint?

[megadoc1]

BTW have you been able to summarise how everything we can observe in nature came into existence by a natural process? Because I dont know if they taught you that yet in naturalism school but, you will have to accept by faith that there is an explanation for that, right?

there you go

[Habit7]

^^^well that is where some folk get it wrong, whether Big Bang theory or Darwinian Evolution, it doesn't explain origins. They both attempt to explain the process by which pre-existing materials became more organised. But a naturalist has to believe that at some point, nothing became an organised something, through a natural process, then all the theories begin.

What I am saying is that we have no evidence that nothings become somethings naturally, but by faith, a naturalist must believed it occurred in the past and quite possibly could happen now.

I dont have enough faith for that.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ yet you repeat his arguments as some credible counterpoint.

only because both his and yours are deeply based in faith for the most part.

The more you continue to repeat his zany claims and I refute it with historical facts, the more your mischaracterisation of me appealing to blind faith sounds like someone who has lost the debate.


BTW have you been able to summarise how everything we can observe in nature came into existence by a natural process? Because I dont know if they taught you that yet in naturalism school but, you will have to accept by faith that there is an explanation for that, right?

having faith that there is an explanation and having faith in an explanation are two totally different things!

[maj. tom]

The big bang didn't come from nothing, it came from a singularity, a single point where the temperature and density was at infinity. It was not a point in space because space and time did not exist yet. It was a point in nothingness. All the matter and energy in the universe today existed in that singularity. Don't know what existed before that singularity, but if you say it was God that still indulges the question "where did God come from?" Faith is good enough for you to think he was infinite but it isn't for others.

Why couldn't the singularity also have been infinite? You are stuck in the concept of linear backward time. Just because something is infinite in the future doesn't mean it was infinite in the past. Simply because time did not exist before the Big Bang.

[megadoc1]

lol .....Duane you aint easy nah

[megadoc1]

The big bang didn't come from nothing, it came from a singularity, a single point where the temperature and density was at infinity. It was not a point in space because space and time did not exist yet. It was a point in nothingness. All the matter and energy in the universe today existed in that singularity. Don't know what existed before that singularity, but if you say it was God that still indulges the question "where did God come from?" Faith is good enough for you to think he was infinite but it isn't for others.

Why couldn't the singularity also have been infinite? You are stuck in the concept of linear backward time. Just because something is infinite in the future doesn't mean it was infinite in the past. Simply because time did not exist before the Big Bang.

so why is it ok to ask "where God came from?" but its not ok to ask where "that singularity and ALL its contributing factors came from?" where did the temperature and the density of whatever that caused the singularity comes from? are you saying we had temperature before time? can you prove this?

[Habit7]

Duane you done moving the goalposts or do you need some more time?

The big bang didn't come from nothing

I never said it it.

[maj. tom]

It is ok to ask that question in science. But since the Big Bang started everything, space, time, thermodynamics, quantum interactions and gravity, and we cannot observe or measure what came before it, how can physics really ask/answer that question? Therefore it was always there and infinite, or maybe it was formed from the death and collapse of a universe before it. Scientists will never know, and cannot know not even at the very end of the Universe. We can extrapolate back until t=0 to figure out that it was a singularity. That's it.

So just as you are assured of the infinite existence of God in the past, physics is assured of the infinity of that singularity.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ is your argument against AdamB or against Islam?

Islam states Jesus existed but gives no evidence that he was the son of God or God himself.

^ yet you repeat his arguments as some credible counterpoint.

only because both his and yours are deeply based in faith for the most part.

Duane,can you tell us exactly what part of these faith based arguments allows for you use adam b's argument as a credible counterpoint?

your confusion is clear.

I do not support his claim any more than I support yours.

If Gary believes his car is nicer and to illustrate that more than one claim is being made for the nicest car I remind Gary that Roger said that Roger's car was the nicest how then does it result in me supporting one claim over the other? I am merely showing that you are not the only one claiming your beliefs to be true.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Duane you done moving the goalposts or do you need some more time?

you are the one making supernatural claims, not me. It could be said that you are fabricating goalposts!

[megadoc1]

It is ok to ask that question in science. But since the Big Bang started everything, space, time, thermodynamics, quantum interactions and gravity, and we cannot observe or measure what came before it, how can physics really ask/answer that question? Therefore it was always there and infinite, or maybe it was formed from the death and collapse of a universe before it. Scientists will never know, and cannot know not even at the very end of the Universe. We can extrapolate back until t=0 to figure out that it was a singularity. That's it.

So just as you are assured of the infinite existence of God in the past, physics is assured of the infinity of that singularity.

thank you very much! I ask this because some scoff at the idea that God was always there, an un caused cause, timeless being but yet finds it ok to believe what created the
universe was always there... so can we say then its a matter of which worldview one choose to hold on to and that there is a possibility that either can be wrong?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

It is ok to ask that question in science. But since the Big Bang started everything, space, time, thermodynamics, quantum interactions and gravity, and we cannot observe or measure what came before it, how can physics really ask/answer that question? Therefore it was always there and infinite, or maybe it was formed from the death and collapse of a universe before it. Scientists will never know, and cannot know not even at the very end of the Universe. We can extrapolate back until t=0 to figure out that it was a singularity. That's it.

So just as you are assured of the infinite existence of God in the past, physics is assured of the infinity of that singularity.

short version: scientists do not know, however they do not make up a supernatural story to fill the gaps in their knowledge.

[megadoc1]

so duane we must agree then, that science cannot currently be used to refute the Idea of a God as creator because they don't know what actually took place

[Habit7]

so duane we must agree then, that science cannot currently be used to refute the Idea of a God as creator because they don't know what actually took place

Furthermore science should be very well opened a supernatural origin for observable nature just as much as they are open to natural origin, such as a cyclic theory of the universe (which still doesn't answer the question of origin out of nothingness but just kicks the can down the road, around the block, and back up the road to the same position it was in).


















However it is not. It refuses to go down the road of supernatural origin not because it is not plausible, but it would end up leaving the realm of science and arriving at theology. And no one would want to do a such a reckless thing as to start defining theology Because it would involve saying someone is theologically right and someone else is theologically wrong. Who wants to do that.

[Habit7]

however they do not make up a supernatural story to fill the gaps in their knowledge.

Actually scientists do fill gaps in their knowledge by developing models, hypotheses and theories for non-empirical events that happen in the past by explaining them though empirical processes we observe today. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong. The Bible is not filling gaps in knowledge, the same message that was proclaimed prior to modern science is the same message proclaimed today. In fact it was people influenced by the Bible who pursued how God, the supernatural being, ordered nature in the study of modern science.

If anything, it was secular humanist naturalists who made up a natural story of how nothing became an organised something and started modern science from there, giving no proof for their natural presupposition.

[rocknrolla]

AdamnB didnt say Jesus didnt exist. He is saying there is no evidence that Jesus was the son of God, or God himself.

no Adam b did say there is no proof that Jesus existed.... I will find it

hahahahah i cant remember, i hope adam b never said that! that would be sad.. sad indeed!

i have been away.. duane banned me for 2 weeks but this comment. is a problem for someone who says they are a muslim.

I didn't ban you.

lols just kidding man. meant to put a lol in there somewhere. ,)


but all who say that jesus is no son of God, or that he is not a prophet, and that he never lived are in for a great.. i repeat.. a great and grand surprise. the quran says all these things itself!

[rocknrolla]

i will delay no longer..

here in Surah 19, Holy Quran.

16 Relate in Al-Kitab the story of Maryam, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the east.

17 She placed a screen to screen herself from them; then we sent to her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

18 She said: I seek refuge from you to Allah most gracious: come not near if you fear Allah.

19 He said: "No, I am only a messenger from your Lord, to announce to you the gift of a holy[1] son."

20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that non man has touched me and I am not unchaste?"

21 He said: "So it will be: Your Lord says, 'That is easy for me: and we wish to appoint him as a sign to men and a mercy from us.' It is a matter so decreed."

22 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

23 And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She cried in her anguish: Ah! Would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!

24 But a voice cried to her from beneath the palm tree: grieve not! For your Lord has provided a rivulet beneath you;

25 And shake towards yourself the trunk of the palm tree. It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon you.

26 So eat and drink and cool your eye. And if you see any man, say, I have vowed a fast to Allah most gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.

27 At length she brought the babe to her people, carrying him in her arms. They said: O Maryam! Truly an amazing thing have you brought!

28 O sister of Harun![2] Your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother a woman unchaste!

29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?

30 He said: I am indeed a servant of Allah: he has given me Al-Kitab and made me a prophet;

31 And he has made me blessed wherever I be, and has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live;

32 He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

33 So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die,[3] and the day that I shall be raised up to life again!

34 Such was 'Isa Ibn Maryam: it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute.[b]

Isa Ibn Maryam is Son of Mary.. Jesus!

furthermore..

35 It is not befitting to Allah that he should sire a son[4]. Glory be to him! When he determines a matter, he only says to it, be, and it is.

36 Truly Allah is my Lord and your Lord: therefore serve him. This is a way that is straight.

37 But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the judgment of a momentous day!

38 How plainly will they see and bear, the day that they will appear before us! But the unjust to day are in error manifest!

39 But warn them of the day of distress, when the matter will be determined: for behold, they are negligent and they do not believe!

40 It is we who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to us will they all be returned.

[b]41 Also mention in Al-Kitab the story of Ibrahim: he was a man of truth, a prophet.

42 Behold, he said to his father: O my father! Why worship that which hears not and sees not, and can profit you nothing?

43 O my father! To me has come knowledge which has not reached you: so follow me: I will guide you to a way that is even and straight.

44 O my father! Serve not Satan: for Satan is a rebel against Allah most gracious.

Al-Kitab is the knowledge that would be bestowed to us in the form of a book. it is the Christian Bible! professing by Allah himself that Jesus was INDEED his son! and it is a matter they vainly dispute! Here in Surah 19, Allah is listing his prophets and i will summarize them later.. but read on about those who reject Christ/Isa.

45 O my father! I fear lest a penalty affect you from Allah most gracious, so that you become to Satan a friend.

46 The father replied: do you hate my gods, O Ibrahim? If you forbear not, I will Indeed stone you: Now get away from me for a good long while!

47 Ibrahim said: peace be on you: I will pray to my Lord for your forgiveness: for he is to me most gracious.

48 And I will turn away from you all and from those whom you invoke besides Allah: I will call on my Lord: perhaps, by my prayer to my Lord, I shall be not unblest.

49 When he had turned away from then and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, we bestowed on him Ishaq and Yaqub, and each one of them we made a prophet.

50 And we bestowed of our mercy on them, and we granted them lofty honour on the tongue of truth.

51 Also mention in Al-Kitab the story of Musa: for he was specially chosen, and he was a messenger and a prophet.

52 And we called him from the right side of Mount Sinai, and made him draw near to us, for mystic converse.

[b]53 And, out of our mercy, we gave him his brother Harun, also a prophet.

[b]54 Also mention in Al-Kitab the story of Ismail: he was strictly true to what he promised, and he was a messenger and a prophet.

55 He used to enjoin on his people prayer and charity, and he was most acceptable in the sight of his Lord.

[b]56 Also mention in Al-Kitab the case of Idris: he was a man of truth and a prophet.

57 And we raised him to a lofty station.[5]

58 Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah bestowed his grace of the posterity of Adam, and of those whom we carried in the Ark with Nuh, and of the posterity of Ibrahim and Israel, of those whom we guided and chose. Whenever the signs of Allah most gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.

59 But after them there followed a posterity who missed prayers and followed after lusts: soon, then, will they face destruction,

60 Except those who repent and believe, and work righteousness: for these will enter the garden and will not be wronged in the least,

61 Gardens of eternity, those which Allah most gracious has promised to his servants in the unseen: for his promise must come to pass.

62 They will not there hear any vain discourse, but only salutations of peace: and they will have therein their sustenance, morning and evening.

63 Such is the garden which we give as an inheritance to those of our servants who guard against evil.

64 The angels say: we descend not but by command of your Lord: to him belongs what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and your Lord never forgets,

65 Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them: so worship him, and be constant and patient in his worship: do you know of any who is worthy of the same name as he?

66 Man says: What! When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?

67 But does not man call to mind that we created him before out of nothing?

68 So, by your Lord, without doubt, we shall gather them together, and also the demons with them; then shall we bring them forth on their knees round about hell;

69 Then shall we certainly drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against Allah most gracious.

70 And certainly we know best those who are most worthy of being burned therein.

71 There is not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished.

72 But we shall save those who guarded against evil, and we shall leave the wrongdoers therein, humbled to their knees.

73 When our clear signs are rehearsed to them, the unbelievers say to those who believe, "Which of the two sides is best in point of position? Which makes the best show in council?"

74 But how many countless generations before them have we destroyed, who were even better in equipment and in glitter to the eye?

75 Say: If any men go astray, Allah most gracious extends the rope to them, until, when they see the warning of Allah being fulfilled either in punishment or in the approach of the Hour, they will at length realize who is worst in position, and who is weakest in forces!

76 And Allah advances in guidance those who seek guidance: and the things that endure, good deeds, are best in the sight of your Lord, as rewards, and best in respect of their eventual returns.

77 Have you then seen the sort of man who rejects our signs, yet says: I shall certainly be given wealth and children?

78 Has he penetrated to the unseen, or has he taken a contract with Allah most gracious?

79 No! We shall record what he says, and we shall add and add to his punishment.

80 To us shall return all that he talks of, and he shall appear before us bare and alone.

81 And they have taken gods other than Allah, to give them power and glory!

82 Instead, they shall reject their worship, and become adversaries against them.

83 Do you not see that we have set the demons on against the unbelievers, to incite them with fury?

84 So make no haste against them, for we but count out to them a limited number of days.

85 The day we shall gather the righteous to Allah most gracious, like a band presented before a king for honours,

86 And we shall drive the sinners to hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water,

87 No one shall have the power of intercession, except one[6] who has received permission from Allah most gracious.

88 They say: Allah most gracious has sired a son![7]

89 Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous!

90 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split apart, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,

91 That they should invoke a son for Allah most gracious.

92 For it is not consonant with the majesty of Allah most gracious that he should sire a son.

93 Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to Allah most gracious as a servant.

94 He takes account of them all, and has numbered them all exactly.

95 And each one of them will come to him one by one on the day of judgment.

96 On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will Allah most gracious bestow love.

97 So have we made the Quran easy in your own tongue, that with it you may give glad tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention.

98 But how many countless generations before them have we destroyed? Can you find a single one of them now or hear so much as a whisper of them?

See now the names of the prophets and those chosen to be represented by Allah through instruction:

Relate in Al-Kitab the story of Maryam - Mary

Also mention in Al-Kitab the story of Ibrahim - Abraham

Also mention in Al-Kitab the story of Musa - Moses

53 And, out of our mercy, we gave him his brother Harun, also a prophet. - Aaron

Also mention in Al-Kitab the story of Ismail - Ishmael

Also mention in Al-Kitab the case of Idris - Enoch, in Hewbrew, Hanoch is the opening of the inner eye! {Meditation}

and of course, Jesus/Isa.. Son of Mary. God's son whom Allah has taken full ownership of as a sinless man

The Christian Bible is FULLY referenced by Allah and he also issues a warning to those who fight and kill in the name of Allah, disputing whether he had a son. But they did not read their own book. and follow muhhamad who said Christ was no son of God.

who do you believe? Allah? or muhammad. i will leave you to chew on this Surah 19. read it to it's entirety and study it well.

All muslims are to follow the the commandments, which unequivocally state.. "Thou shalt not kill". and that certainly means.. not killing christians, nor killing muslims who marry christians, nor killing muslims from other sects. Allah is judge and noone else. we are instructed by allah to RESIST EVIL and Temptation! never did he say "kill in my name". thus any muslim, who wishes to be in Allah's favour shall run away from any who deny Christ and support killing in the name of any prophet. the choice is yours and always has been to resist temptation.. by following God's instructions.

i unfortunately did not see Muhammad in Allah's list of prophets. See that in verse 46, Allah refers to his prophets, including Jesus as "My Gods"

WE! WE! WE! US! US! US! GODS!

plural!

[megadoc1]

^ is your argument against AdamB or against Islam?

Islam states Jesus existed but gives no evidence that he was the son of God or God himself.

^ yet you repeat his arguments as some credible counterpoint.

only because both his and yours are deeply based in faith for the most part.

Duane,can you tell us exactly what part of these faith based arguments allows for you use adam b's argument as a credible counterpoint?

your confusion is clear.

I do not support his claim any more than I support yours.

so it does not matter how absurd these claims are? is it forbidden to apply logic because the claims are faith based?
are you saying that even if you know for sure that his argument sucks ,it is still ok to use it?

If Gary believes his car is nicer and to illustrate that more than one claim is being made for the nicest car I remind Gary that Roger said that Roger's car was the nicest how then does it result in me supporting one claim over the other? I am merely showing that you are not the only one claiming your beliefs to be true.

yeah but gary's car has been around a long time, known by most for its beauty ,cam direct from the factory way before roger came along with his Frankenstein that was made up with scrap , rusted parts faR away in the waste lands....
roger making a bold and ridiculous claim does not automatically put him on par with gary
and hanging on a benz emblem wont help

the claim is one thing, the background information gives a bigger picture

but in your analogy, this could have been easily settled by looking at both cars
and then measuring them up to one standard that defines for us what is nice

so my question is why cant we us logic to determine truth? it the best standard we've got

[maj. tom]

Don't you think faith is unreliable and unpredictable, despite you standing the tests and trials? Not everyone can subscribe to faith to lead them through the difficulty of life. You would have the belief of strengthened faith and "God knows best" but that's only because you are still alive to say it.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

however they do not make up a supernatural story to fill the gaps in their knowledge.

Actually scientists do fill gaps in their knowledge by developing models, hypotheses and theories for non-empirical events that happen in the past by explaining them though empirical processes we observe today. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong. The Bible is not filling gaps in knowledge, the same message that was proclaimed prior to modern science is the same message proclaimed today. In fact it was people influenced by the Bible who pursued how God, the supernatural being, ordered nature in the study of modern science.

If anything, it was secular humanist naturalists who made up a natural story of how nothing became an organised something and started modern science from there, giving no proof for their natural presupposition.

humans can imagine great things! But scientists do not claim that their belief, models, hypotheses and theories are absolute, they change it when new evidence is found.

and it is NOT the same message. At one point biblical scholars taught that the world was flat and universe geocentric. Today Young earth creationists believe that the earth is ~6000 years old when even their contemporaries agree with the vast scientific evidence that the earth is billions of years old.

wrt the highlighted statement - how many of that resulted in the advancement of science in the past century?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ is your argument against AdamB or against Islam?

Islam states Jesus existed but gives no evidence that he was the son of God or God himself.

^ yet you repeat his arguments as some credible counterpoint.

only because both his and yours are deeply based in faith for the most part.

Duane,can you tell us exactly what part of these faith based arguments allows for you use adam b's argument as a credible counterpoint?

your confusion is clear.

I do not support his claim any more than I support yours.

so it does not matter how absurd these claims are? is it forbidden to apply logic because the claims are faith based?
are you saying that even if you know for sure that his argument sucks ,it is still ok to use it?

If Gary believes his car is nicer and to illustrate that more than one claim is being made for the nicest car I remind Gary that Roger said that Roger's car was the nicest how then does it result in me supporting one claim over the other? I am merely showing that you are not the only one claiming your beliefs to be true.

yeah but gary's car has been around a long time, known by most for its beauty ,cam direct from the factory way before roger came along with his Frankenstein that was made up with scrap , rusted parts faR away in the waste lands....
roger making a bold and ridiculous claim does not automatically put him on par with gary
and hanging on a benz emblem wont help

the claim is one thing, the background information gives a bigger picture

but in your analogy, this could have been easily settled by looking at both cars
and then measuring them up to one standard that defines for us what is nice

so my question is why cant we us logic to determine truth? it the best standard we've got

both owners claim their car was there from the beginning

[megadoc1]

Don't you think faith is unreliable and unpredictable, despite you standing the tests and trials?

nope.... I think faith is a good thing, what can be unreliable or unpredictable is what you put your faith into.

Not everyone can subscribe to faith to lead them through the difficulty of life.

faith is not only for life difficulties but even in them faith somehow becomes necessary

You would have the belief of strengthened faith and "God knows best" but that's only because you are still alive to say it.

I get what you trying to say but don't venture out to say that's the end result of one's faith in God

[megadoc1]

^ is your argument against AdamB or against Islam?

Islam states Jesus existed but gives no evidence that he was the son of God or God himself.

^ yet you repeat his arguments as some credible counterpoint.

only because both his and yours are deeply based in faith for the most part.

Duane,can you tell us exactly what part of these faith based arguments allows for you use adam b's argument as a credible counterpoint?

your confusion is clear.

I do not support his claim any more than I support yours.

so it does not matter how absurd these claims are? is it forbidden to apply logic because the claims are faith based?
are you saying that even if you know for sure that his argument sucks ,it is still ok to use it?

If Gary believes his car is nicer and to illustrate that more than one claim is being made for the nicest car I remind Gary that Roger said that Roger's car was the nicest how then does it result in me supporting one claim over the other? I am merely showing that you are not the only one claiming your beliefs to be true.

yeah but gary's car has been around a long time, known by most for its beauty ,cam direct from the factory way before roger came along with his Frankenstein that was made up with scrap , rusted parts faR away in the waste lands....
roger making a bold and ridiculous claim does not automatically put him on par with gary
and hanging on a benz emblem wont help

the claim is one thing, the background information gives a bigger picture

but in your analogy, this could have been easily settled by looking at both cars
and then measuring them up to one standard that defines for us what is nice

so my question is why cant we us logic to determine truth? it the best standard we've got

both owners claim their car was there from the beginning

and? this wasn't about which car is nicer?...lol