The Religion Discussion

[AdamB]

^ would the holy spirit NOT come to a person reading the bible?

Also can you give me a part of the bible that has a different meaning when read without and then with the holy spirit?

In Islam, after the prophet, the people of knowledge (scholars) are the ones who are authorized to transmit the "understanding" from the prophet down generation after generation.

authorized by whom?

The teaching scholar authorizes the student. It's not like Kitchener authorizing what's his name.

Knowledge in Islam is based on evidence. The key to this evidence is preservation of it's authenticity and distinguishing the authentic from the weak/fabricated.

[AdamB]

No, it can be read by everybody,the first interpretation is literal so it should be fairly easy to understand,but there are other meanings that have to be studied.Do you think without God(I believe he exists and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him,according to the bible)you can grasp the true meaning of his words that he has put there for you?I am not speaking of the holy spirit that some people say is the third person in the godhead,as a matter of fact,I believe that God is one,it says so in the bible.
They derive otherwise from the same bible. the Quran has been sent to affirm your belief in the ONE GOD, and to warn against what opposes it.

The holy spirit I speak of,is God's spirit ,the part of God that interacts with man and speaks to him.

From where did you get this, this notion of parting out GOD?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ would the holy spirit NOT come to a person reading the bible?

Also can you give me a part of the bible that has a different meaning when read without and then with the holy spirit?

In Islam, after the prophet, the people of knowledge (scholars) are the ones who are authorized to transmit the "understanding" from the prophet down generation after generation.

authorized by whom?

The teaching scholar authorizes the student. It's not like Kitchener authorizing what's his name.

Knowledge in Islam is based on evidence. The key to this evidence is preservation of it's authenticity and distinguishing the authentic from the weak/fabricated.

distinguished by whom?

Shia's say the Shia scholar is right and Sunni's say no, the Sunni scholar is right. Which is the right one?

[Habit7]

Duane for you, is absolute truth knowable?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

That depends on your definition of absolute truth in the question you are asking.

[Habit7]

Truth that doesnt depend on opinion or perception, it is universal fact.

[marlener]

I understand exactly what rspann is saying and I agree.The Holy Spirit needs to be invited,he does not force himself on anyone who does not wish to be taught.Many people read the bible but for different reasons,some just so they can quote for argument sake,others to know the will of God and still others for reading sake so they can say I have read the bible and the quran and the gita etc and have gained nothing nor have it made them a better person then the blame God who they deny even exist. They lack sincerity,humlity and guidance in the first place hence the results.

[rspann]

AdamB,I said that just to simplify what I was saying,I was not parting out God.I think talking about The holy spirit as a person and the three persons in the Godhead(which I do not believe)is parting out God,but I see your point.I should have said god speaks to man and also causes him to understand his word.Marlener,You hit the nail on the head,even the devil knows that God is creator,and knows all Gods words.

[Habit7]

Yes the Holy Spirit helps Christians understand the Bible (1 Corinthians 2:14-15, John 14:26 and 1 John 2:27). But this is not done in a mystical way where one hears voices or sees signs or even hears a bell ring (you know who your are ). The interpretation of the Bible is done by engaging the mind in a logical process, one that we even see used in the Bible itself, in analysing what the Scripture says within it own context, irrespective of whatever notion the reader brings to it.

It can be itemised:

1]Who wrote/spoke the passage and to whom was it addressed?
2]What does the passage say?
3]Are there any words or phrases in the passage that need to be examined?
4]What is the immediate context?
5]What is the broader context in the chapter and book?
6]What are the related verses to the passage’s subject and how do they affect the understanding of this passage?
7]What is the historical and cultural background?
8]What do I conclude about the passage?
9]Do my conclusions agree or disagree with related areas of Scripture and others who have studied the passage?
10]What have I learned and what must I apply to my life?

for further example and explanation check out: http://carm.org/how-interpret-bible


The Holy Spirit is instantly available to everyone who has been brought into a saving relationship with God through repentance from sin and trust in the work of the Son: Jesus Christ. One of the roles of the Spirit in the life of the believer is to illuminate Scripture and help in understanding, but it is the onus of the believer sit under sound teaching and to engage in diligent study to begin to plumb the depths of God's Word. That is why the Apostle Paul told Timothy, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

The problem that occur within the church is that people dont study their Scripture or when the do, they do not engage in proper interpretation (hermeneutics). And this this cause of many errors and excesses within the church.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Truth that doesnt depend on opinion or perception, it is universal fact.

can you give me an example of what you consider to be an absolute truth? No supernatural examples please

[rspann]

Duane,those definitions are for science etc.Absolute truth cannot come into a religious discussion.All who are trying to prove their religion is the correct one will just make this thread everlasting.All religions have one defining point,faith.You can bring your 'proof' and I can argue with it,the fact you believe in yours and AdamB believes his to be correct,while admitting that it is your faith in it(your God and hence your religion)that makes you accept it as truth.Your beliefs can only be supported because of your faith that your book is true and correct,but does it make the book really correct?Of course it doesn't,because,while AdamB's faith tells him his book is the correct one,Habit7's faith tells him that his is correct.Your bringing up and your history has a lot to do with the shaping of your faith, and thats's what it remains,faith,not proof.This can be summed up as it says in the bible;without faith it is impossible to please God.Faith is the substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen.If everything in religion could be proved physically or historically, then it would be fact,not faith proving it,then by it we could not please God.If we had absolute proof that one religion or the other was correct(for lack of a better word)then we would believe on facts and not have faith.Makes me think of political parties,some believe in the PNM and can bring proof to show it is the greatest party,and can show all the problems with the PP,but vice versa,the PP can show the same thing.It's just about ones faith in God.AdamB tell me what you think,only muslims will end up in paradise?Habit7,only christians?



N.B didn't have any spare paragraphs,put them in where you want.

[pioneer]

So adamb how come allah leh dem chiren die?

dey had so much ahead of them

If allah is all-knowing, almighty and loves his ppl...why he didn't strike down the bandits?

[rspann]

He could have,if He wanted.It is not our discretion to question the will of GOD.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ so we should have faith but not question who or what we have faith in? So therefore it is blind faith.

Duane,those definitions are for science etc.Absolute truth cannot come into a religious discussion.All who are trying to prove their religion is the correct one will just make this thread everlasting.All religions have one defining point,faith.You can bring your 'proof' and I can argue with it,the fact you believe in yours and AdamB believes his to be correct,while admitting that it is your faith in it(your God and hence your religion)that makes you accept it as truth.Your beliefs can only be supported because of your faith that your book is true and correct,but does it make the book really correct?Of course it doesn't,because,while AdamB's faith tells him his book is the correct one,Habit7's faith tells him that his is correct.Your bringing up and your history has a lot to do with the shaping of your faith, and thats's what it remains,faith,not proof.This can be summed up as it says in the bible;without faith it is impossible to please God.Faith is the substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen.If everything in religion could be proved physically or historically, then it would be fact,not faith proving it,then by it we could not please God.If we had absolute proof that one religion or the other was correct(for lack of a better word)then we would believe on facts and not have faith.Makes me think of political parties,some believe in the PNM and can bring proof to show it is the greatest party,and can show all the problems with the PP,but vice versa,the PP can show the same thing.It's just about ones faith in God.AdamB tell me what you think,only muslims will end up in paradise?Habit7,only christians?



N.B didn't have any spare paragraphs,put them in where you want.

so it does not matter what you believe or what religion or sect you belong to, what matters is the strength of your faith in your God that will get you to heaven?

Is that just your opinion that you innovated for yourself? I don't think AdamB or Habit7 will agree with that.

[rspann]

Didn't Jesus say that no longer will the samaritans worship in the mountains nor the jews at Jerusalem,God is a spirit and who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth?Religion is not about form,it is about you being right with God.

[rspann]

You cannot know all absolute truth,neither can you prove or disprove anything absolutely.I'll give you an example I state that 1:I know where you live
2:I met you and had a transaction with you
3:I have a copy of your driving permit
How many of the above are true?

[Slartibartfast]

You cannot know all absolute truth,neither can you prove or disprove anything absolutely.I'll give you an example I state that 1:I know where you live
2:I met you and had a transaction with you
3:I have a copy of your driving permit
How many of the above are true?

Your are exactly half right. You can prove all three of those things absolutely
1. By stating my address
2. By showing me a picture or video of us meeting and having a transaction
3. By showing me the copy of my driver's permit

But it is impossible for me to disprove them. So therefore onus is on you to prove the claims that you make. Just like it is impossible for me to prove that any of the Gods from the religions exist and it is therefore on you to prove that they do exist.

Now we must ask ourselves what reasonable assumptions can be made about someone that cannot prove their claims and even more importantly, what reasonable assumptions can be made about that persons claims

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ ah yes, the burden of proof

You cannot know all absolute truth,

are you saying that absolutely?

[rspann]

The question was really directed to duane,since he was the one talking about the absolute truth,and I wanted to prove a point to him,but you are correct.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The question was really directed to duane,since he was the one talking about the absolute truth,and I wanted to prove a point to him,but you are correct.

what was the point you were proving? that there is no absolute truth?

[rspann]

@slarti,the thing is that you don't have to prove God exists,you have to believe that He does by faith.you can accept that the bible is his word to man and learn about him through his word.You could,you don't have to.It's your choice.

[rspann]

The question was really directed to duane,since he was the one talking about the absolute truth,and I wanted to prove a point to him,but you are correct.

what was the point you were proving? that there is no absolute truth?

Answer me and I'll show you.There is absolute truth(because that's what truth is by definition)knowing it and proving it is something different.Being unable to prove something does not negate the fact that it is true.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ so we should all absolutely believe in unicorns and leprechauns?

@slarti,the thing is that you don't have to prove God exists,you have to believe that He does by faith.you can accept that the bible is his word to man and learn about him through his word.You could,you don't have to.It's your choice.

if you make a claim then the onus is on you to prove it.

Faith in something does not make it true.

you mean this question?

You cannot know all absolute truth,neither can you prove or disprove anything absolutely.I'll give you an example I state that 1:I know where you live
2:I met you and had a transaction with you
3:I have a copy of your driving permit
How many of the above are true?

slartibartfast gave as succinct an answer as I ever could.

[rspann]

So you mean to tell me you don't believe in leprechauns and unicorns?Next thing you will say there is no santa claus and tooth fairy!

[Habit7]

Truth that doesnt depend on opinion or perception, it is universal fact.

can you give me an example of what you consider to be an absolute truth? No supernatural examples please

I think you are avoiding the question.


rspann, Duane is right, I won't agree with your view. We dealt with it earlier but in a nutshell, while I do have faith, but it is not a blind faith, it is a trust in factual historic events and statements within the most verified book of antiquity, the Bible. It is not analogous to Islam, because Islam relies on certain books of the Bible for veracity and those books are disingenuous to and even condemns religions like Islam.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Truth that doesnt depend on opinion or perception, it is universal fact.

can you give me an example of what you consider to be an absolute truth? No supernatural examples please

I think you are avoiding the question.

not at all!

the most verified book of antiquity

is that what you consider to be absolute truth? because AdamB says that the Qur'an is the most verified book and you say the Bible is. You both claim speak the truth.

[Habit7]

probably if you answer the question you wont make the statement below

the most verified book of antiquity

is that what you consider to be absolute truth? because AdamB says that the Qur'an is the most verified book and you say the Bible is. You both claim speak the truth.

please, quote where AdamB has said this

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

probably if you answer the question you wont make the statement below

the most verified book of antiquity

is that what you consider to be absolute truth? because AdamB says that the Qur'an is the most verified book and you say the Bible is. You both claim speak the truth.

please, quote where AdamB has said this

http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&p=6918143#p6918143

Arabic, unlike the languages used in the Bible, is not a language of "antiquity". The language is in use today, and the texts have been preserved in wording and meaning. The Quran is therefore on a stronger footing than the Bible when it comes to reliance for historical evidence.

No proof exists for your Jesus of the Bible, so what makes your Jesus correct and the one of the Quran wrong? A question Duane has been asking...

[AdamB]

probably if you answer the question you wont make the statement below

the most verified book of antiquity

is that what you consider to be absolute truth? because AdamB says that the Qur'an is the most verified book and you say the Bible is. You both claim speak the truth.

please, quote where AdamB has said this

http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&p=6918143#p6918143

Arabic, unlike the languages used in the Bible, is not a language of "antiquity". The language is in use today, and the texts have been preserved in wording and meaning. The Quran is therefore on a stronger footing than the Bible when it comes to reliance for historical evidence.

No proof exists for your Jesus of the Bible, so what makes your Jesus correct and the one of the Quran wrong? A question Duane has been asking...

They deny the truth (Allah/GOD, Islam, the Quran, the final prophet/Messenger Muhammad).

They deny historical evidence.

They deny Jesus and what he said and taught.

They deny their salvation.

They deny their place in Paradise (Heaven).

And who would be so foolish as to deny this?

[AdamB]

The evidence is being established against them...