The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

^^^LOL

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

what historical, archeological and prophetic support does the Bible have over the Qur'an?

Isaiah 53

it is also possible to claim 9/11 was prophesied by Nostradamus.

Prove it. Prove that Nostradamus prophesied 9/11 with equal or superseding specificity as Isaiah 53 prophesied the life, ministry and death of Jesus.

that's my point, it doesn't. You can however make it seem so if you really want it to.

Isaiah is also in the Torah with 53 1-12 having a different meaning. Jews believe the original Hebrew text clearly refers to the Jewish people, the nation of Israel, as the “Suffering Servant”, not Jesus. Jews claim that Christian's belief that this is a prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion is based on widespread mistranslations and distortion of context. Isaiah 49:3 in the Bible says "He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”"

Jews and other critics also argue that the Gospel of Matthew contains glorifications of Jesus and perhaps exaggerations which could have very well been affected by previous writings, such as Isaiah 53. Taking that into consideration it would be pointless to argue by using even more Gospel passages, wouldn't it?

It is very easy to take a vague passage and make it appear to mean many things.

What makes one right and the other wrong?

[Habit7]

If that was your point then it was not made clearly. Just as Nostradamus' musings could be contorted to the 9/11 event, Isaiah 53 could be contorted to mean Israel was the Suffering Servant.

The very book of Isaiah describes Israel in Isaiah 1:4 "Alas, sinful nation, People weighed down with iniquity, Offspring of evildoers, Sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned the Lord, They have despised the Holy One of Israel, They have turned away from Him." while the Suffering Servant is described: "He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth."
In Isaiah 53:8,9 the Suffering Servant dies and "His grave" was assigned, however Israel (the Jews) has never died as a people. They have been cut off and scattered, but they have always existed and recently reformed as a nation.
Furthermore, in Isaiah 53:11 the Suffering Servant "the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities." As Isaiah said before, Israel is not righteous, it cannot justify anyone nor bear their iniquities because Israel is in woeful need of forgiveness himself.

Jesus totally fulfills the role of the Suffering Servant, with far more specificity than Israel or any Nostradamus esoteric prophecy that is could be contorted to any world event. Jesus was sinless and He justified many through the bearing of sins on the cross. The "critics" who you fail to cite cannot properly prove exaggerations of the glory of Jesus without alternate accounts which paint a different picture. The four Gospel accounts features first hand and eye witness accounts that we properly documented and distributed among the populace within the lifetime of the impartial witnesses of Jesus' events. They had ample time to respond with alternate accounts but they affirmed what was said and passing it on. Compare this with the 700 year later account of Jesus with no first hand or witness account, distribute in a populace far removed from the location of the event, this what we find in the Quran.

Duane we have been down this road before, you are grasping a whatever ambiguity you can find in order to say that the truth of the matter cannot be known. Yet when I show you that there is ambiguity in the theories you hold as fact, you claim that the truth of the fact is based on the largest consensus among the ambiguous. Well there are more who identify the Suffering Servant as Jesus, so we win

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ I've never said that truth is based on the largest consensus! In fact I've always said that belief in something does not necessarily make it true.

I am showing you what other people believe vs what you or any other person believes and I'm asking what makes one right or more right than the other, other than belief.

[megadoc1]

Setting the rhetoric aside, I took your advice and used http://www.muslimaccess.com and I not only read the translations, but the tafsir of Imam Ibn Kathir and...let me just compare him with you.

Quran 4:157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

TAKE IT LINE BY LINE (AGAIN!):

• That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";

- The ‘Romans’ who are attempting to deceive the observers; are saying to them:
“We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"

•but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

- the Quran is saying that they (the ‘Romans’), did not kill him, nor crucified him.
- But the ‘Romans’ made it appear to the observers that he was crucified

• and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,

- the Quran is saying that those who believe that he (Jesus) was killed or crucified are ‘full of doubts’ and doesn’t know for certain, but live only with assumptions that they were presented with by the ‘Romans’.

• for of a surety they killed him not:-

- the Quran confirms again, that Jesus was not killed!

The Jews also said,

﴿إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ﴾

("We killed Al-Masih, `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'') meaning, we killed the person who claimed to be the Messenger of Allah....

...That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep. Allah said,

﴿إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يعِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ﴾

(And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself.'') When `Isa ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like `Isa, they thought that he was `Isa. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. The Jews then boasted that they killed `Isa and some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with `Isa, they witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed `Isa by crucifixion.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=59

So Jews not Romans made the boast about killing Jesus and Allah made it appear that Jesus was crucified by providing a double.

Either Ibn Kathir had been reading one of those “Christian” slandering websites or...you might be wrong.

ibn Kathir is right but that does not mean that New Species is wrong. The Romans may have wanted to kill Jesus because he was causing "trouble" among the jews. Quranic verses allow more than one meaning as long as they don't contradict each other.

lol...kookdom at its best

[Habit7]

^ I've never said that truth is based on the largest consensus! In fact I've always said that belief in something does not necessarily make it true.

but scientific knowledge and evidence (which is taught in schools and universities) does not support the majority of religious claims for creation.

You are yet to distinguish that scientific knowledge and evidence doesnt contradict the Bible, popular theory and hypothesis do.

It is funny how you are sympathetic to the other side even when the evidence is stacked up against them.

But please let us not digress, you wanted to know what make Bible right and the Quran wrong, stay tune to my conversation with these Muslims.

[Habit7]

ibn Kathir is right but that does not mean that New Species is wrong. The Romans may have wanted to kill Jesus because he was causing "trouble" among the jews. Quranic verses allow more than one meaning as long as they don't contradict each other.

I agree there can be multiple meanings to a text, once they are not contradicting. But NS interpretation contradicts Ibn Kathir. They differ in who is claiming to kill Jesus and who made it appear that Jesus died. I would like to lean more on NS side as a fellow tuner, but I understand the Ibn Kathir interpretations carry a certain weight within the Islamic community.

So am I misrepresenting the Quran when I say Allah deceived the first believers in Christianity?

[AdamB]

Habit,
GOD deserves to be respected and treated with the proper estimation. I've said before that no evil or wrong doing can be attributed to HIM. I've shown how christians really hate GOD and you certainly act the part!

Muslims know that GOD of the Bible and GOD of the Quran is One and the same, however you have issues accepting that....no wonder that you associate partners with HIM in lordship and divinity. It is what you desire.

GOD is not to blame for your disbelief in HIM, HE simply gives you the rope with which to hang yourself.

HE created the Hellfire and Satan which you also believe. Is HE then evil because of that? NO, HE knows why (knowledge), is just (justice), and the purpose for which HE created these has it's wisdom.

Knowledge, justice, wisdom!!!

[Habit7]

I agree that God must be respected and treated with the proper estimation. However, when there are those that make the claim that the God of the Bible is that same as Allah of the Quran, they could not be more wrong.

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good,
Psalms 101:7 He who practices deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who speaks falsehood shall not maintain his position before me

The God of the Bible abhors lying and deceit. He does not need to commit these actions to forward His will. Yet Allah of the Quran boldly proclaims his use of deception, and excuses lying for his cause. You couldn't want a more clearer distinction of who the true God is.

The God of the Bible is the standard of truth and is consistent with Himself. He stands on the basis of who He declares Himself to be and does not need to point back to any prior book to validate Him. The God of the Bible is good and displays His love to all men and calls on those who follow Him to love all men.

But most of all God demonstrated His love for all men by sending the Son, who is God, into the world as a man, to live the perfect life we all are supposed to live. The Jews and the Romans thought they were serving God by killing Him, but this was all in the will of the Father. Jesus was the human who bore the sins of man yet as God, the only Saviour, He absorbed the wrath of the Father that those who would believe in Jesus deserve. The Father killed Jesus (Isaiah 53:10). But Jesus being God, took back up His life (John 10:17) as He again three days later. "For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11)

Trust in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins.

[rspann]

How then do we reconcile this with 2 Thessalonians 2;11

[RBphoto]

Adam, yuh talk to the Shake As yet?

[Habit7]

How then do we reconcile this with 2 Thessalonians 2;11

2 Thessalonians 2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

Within its context 2 Thessalonians 2:11 should be understood firstly with the antichrist (the lawless one) being introduced in v8 and 9. It goes on in verse 10 to show that those who followed the antichrist rejected the "love of the truth so as to be saved." So now with that understanding, God will send, to these people that are already rejecting the truth, a deluding influence concerning the antichrist, in judgement for rejecting the truth and taking pleasure in wickedness (verse 12).

God, who is just, in offering the truth to a fallen creation, can judge those who reject His truth by giving them over to the desires of their intentions.
Romans 1:24-26 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

God can choose to save a soul at an early age so that for the rest of their life that can continue to do good works for Him or He can allow a soul to live a long active life of rebellion to Him to a ripe old age where a person has now amassed decades of sin against God. The responsibility still lies with man.

James 1:13-18 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.





Allah of the Quran deceived people who were following Jesus who even Allah affirmed as the a prophet of God.

[luther]

yo Christians. How come Jesus is de Son of God when he never say he was in de Gospels?

[megadoc1]

yo Christians. How come Jesus is de Son of God when he never say he was in de Gospels?

I take it that you did not read the gospels
John 10:34-36

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be set aside--
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

this was Jesus' response to those who seek to kill him for claiming to be God's son! back then you would be killed for making those kinds of claims as it was considered blasphemy ...with that said it is either Jesus was talking the truth, telling a lie or was a lunatic or something!

furthermore the gospels especially the book of John started of by telling us that they beheld his (Jesus) glory as the only begotten of the father! that is the very word who was God
john 1:14

14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth

[bluefete]

yo Christians. How come Jesus is de Son of God when he never say he was in de Gospels?

Jesus did not need to say it. God said it for him!

Luke 9:34 - While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 36And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Matthew 3:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[luther]

yo Christians. How come Jesus is de Son of God when he never say he was in de Gospels?

Jesus did not need to say it. God said it for him!

Luke 9:34 - While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 36And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Matthew 3:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

whatever. I ent care 'bout your dopey-arse "religion".

[bluefete]

yo Christians. How come Jesus is de Son of God when he never say he was in de Gospels?

Jesus did not need to say it. God said it for him!

Luke 9:34 - While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 36And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Matthew 3:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

whatever. I ent care 'bout your dopey-arse "religion".

You just joined tuner today to "troll' on the forum? One of your threads got locked already on your first day. We already have a King Troll on tuner. His name is Pioneer. Maybe you should humble yourself and take some lessons from him.

God Bless You Son..

[Habit7]

So then why you ask the question?

[bluefete]

So then why you ask the question?

He is on pure kicks and is seeking to rile up tuners.

[rspann]

You don't care about a dopey arse religion enough to sit in front of a computer,find a religion thread,read it ask a question,prove that you don't know what you are saying,and then say whatever,I don't care about your dopey arse religion?Wow who is the dopey arse?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ I've never said that truth is based on the largest consensus! In fact I've always said that belief in something does not necessarily make it true.

but scientific knowledge and evidence (which is taught in schools and universities) does not support the majority of religious claims for creation.

You are yet to distinguish that scientific knowledge and evidence doesnt contradict the Bible, popular theory and hypothesis do.

It is funny how you are sympathetic to the other side even when the evidence is stacked up against them.

stacked up where? in creationist pseudo-science?

my statement was not a bid to show that if majority supports a claim therefore it is true. I stated that scientific knowledge and evidence (which is based on the scientific method) does not support the majority of religious claims for creation.

You are yet to distinguish that scientific knowledge and evidence shows that the earth is billions of years old and that "human lineage diverged from the last common ancestor with its closest living relative, the chimpanzee, some five million years ago, evolving into the Australopithecines and eventually the genus Homo."

that is not accepted just because it is "popular theory". Science does not care how popular a theory is. It is either true or false. You are confusing the words "theory" with "scientific theory". A scientific theory is based on careful examination of facts. It is much different from the non-scientific use of the word.

I posted this before:

Theory
Theory is a contemplative and rational type of abstract or generalizing thinking, or the results of such thinking.

Scientific Theory
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.

Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unsubstantiated or speculative.

Is there a scientific theory for creationism or intelligent design?

[Habit7]

Honestly Duane, with your prior gaffes with science here on this thread (humans not at the top of the food chain, equating archeology with paleontology) you are in no position to determine what is pseudo-science.

You are equating "scientific knowledge and evidence" which is empirical, repeatable and testable with scientific theory which is our best explanation based off of empirical evidence. So when you say that the Bible may not support billion of years or human evolution, those are theories, not "scientific knowledge and evidence." These theories are ever changing and I am glad the Bible doesnt support them, especially with Darwins racist view of human evolution.

Furthermore, there are wide dissensions with the theory you are relying on. Remember when I posted:

"There are no universally accepted fossil remains which demonstrate the evolution of man." The Science Journal of Nature, vol. 412, 2001, p. 131.

Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations. Fossil evidence of chimpanzee evolution is absent altogether.
The Science Journal of Nature, vol. 412, 2001, p. 131.

Dont you think that it is duplicitous that when men who probably forgot more science than you have ever remembered, disagree with these theories you call them pseudo-scientists, but when someone puts forward a positive affirmation of a biblical doctrine, you run to look up an opposing view just to say that they are both equal in their claim therefore the truth is indiscernible?

I think the word you like to use is "bias" but I like to call it "inconsistent worldview."

[AdamB]

yo Christians. How come Jesus is de Son of God when he never say he was in de Gospels?

I take it that you did not read the gospels
John 10:34-36

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be set aside--
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

this was Jesus' response to those who seek to kill him for claiming to be God's son! back then you would be killed for making those kinds of claims as it was considered blasphemy ...with that said it is either Jesus was talking the truth, telling a lie or was a lunatic or something!

furthermore the gospels especially the book of John started of by telling us that they beheld his (Jesus) glory as the only begotten of the father! that is the very word who was God
john 1:14

14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth

LOL, once again your proof for your Polytheist Belief comes from none other than the Gospel of John...not surprising!!

[AdamB]

I think the word you like to use is "bias" but I like to call it "inconsistent worldview."

Christianity on the whole is an inconsistent worldview...

[Habit7]

I think the word you like to use is "bias" but I like to call it "inconsistent worldview."

Christianity on the whole is an inconsistent worldview...

No this is an inconsistent worldview:

Setting the rhetoric aside, I took your advice and used http://www.muslimaccess.com and I not only read the translations, but the tafsir of Imam Ibn Kathir and...let me just compare him with you.

Quran 4:157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

TAKE IT LINE BY LINE (AGAIN!):

• That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";

- The ‘Romans’ who are attempting to deceive the observers; are saying to them:
“We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"

•but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

- the Quran is saying that they (the ‘Romans’), did not kill him, nor crucified him.
- But the ‘Romans’ made it appear to the observers that he was crucified

• and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,

- the Quran is saying that those who believe that he (Jesus) was killed or crucified are ‘full of doubts’ and doesn’t know for certain, but live only with assumptions that they were presented with by the ‘Romans’.

• for of a surety they killed him not:-

- the Quran confirms again, that Jesus was not killed!

The Jews also said,

﴿إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ﴾

("We killed Al-Masih, `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'') meaning, we killed the person who claimed to be the Messenger of Allah....

...That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep. Allah said,

﴿إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يعِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ﴾

(And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself.'') When `Isa ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like `Isa, they thought that he was `Isa. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. The Jews then boasted that they killed `Isa and some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with `Isa, they witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed `Isa by crucifixion.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=59

So Jews not Romans made the boast about killing Jesus and Allah made it appear that Jesus was crucified by providing a double.

Either Ibn Kathir had been reading one of those “Christian” slandering websites or...you might be wrong.

ibn Kathir is right but that does not mean that New Species is wrong. The Romans may have wanted to kill Jesus because he was causing "trouble" among the jews. Quranic verses allow more than one meaning as long as they don't contradict each other.

Not just that religious Jews would call Jesus the Messiah or that Allah of the Quran would deceive faithful followers of his prophet, but that you would see how New_SPECIES' interpretation starkly goes against conventional Islam yet you justify it by deeming it non-contradictory.

I used to see you rebuke and correct Sachetto when she made errors about Islam, why not him?

[AdamB]

Habit,
Simply because it's not an error.

The Quranic verses did not specify the subject/doer of the action. This is for a reason, remember the words of Allah comprise KNOWLEDGE, WISDOM AND JUSTICE.

Also, the Jews were living as a religious minority in a Roman state. I am sure you can confirm who arrested Jesus and who supposedly tried and executed the punishment of hanging on the cross for all criminals at that time.

Please confirm it.

Also, you seem to ignore the part of the Quranic verses that refer to the (Christians) saying that they crucified Jesus. Your mountain of a religion crumbles like a cookie because the fact is that "they killed him not NEITHER DID THEY CRUCIFY HIM"!!

Also, the first words of Jesus as a baby in the cradle was "Innee Abdullah" - Surely I am the slave of Allah. Another shattering of your "worldview".

[Habit7]

LOL again

First you say that

The Quranic verses did not specify the subject/doer of the action

then you say

you seem to ignore the part of the Quranic verses that refer to the (Christians) saying that they crucified Jesus

you mind giving us those verses?

[AdamB]

Habit,
Don't you and the whole of christianity say that Jesus was crucified? Your religion is baseless without it.

The words of Allah are true and everlasting (doesn't need to be changed, modified and corrected like the bible.

[megadoc1]

and there we go again!

[Habit7]

For those asking whether the Quran or Bible is right, see God of the Bible being the standard of truth and a rewarder of those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6), while Allah of the Quran who is the best of deceivers/schemers/plotters/planners mislead those who were following his prophet (Surah 4:157) and start a religion with greater dominance than Islam.