The Religion Discussion

[megadoc1]

Habit,
The first christians were Unitarian, they never worshipped Jesus or in the name of Jesus!! Trinity came (fabricated) after 200-300+ yrs when the religion was reinvented to include worship of Jesus and the angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit).

huh?!!! Since when Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

almost two hundred pages ago we address this error with Adam b, all he did was run us around and jump to other topics now to come back with this nonsense again?
http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&hilit=where+did+god+put&start=11010

yes mr adam b that Holy Ghost is the comforter that was promised by Jesus to His disciples which they did receive a short time after and NOT 400 years later at the advent of Islam as most Muslims erroneously teaches

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
παράκλητος
paraklētos
par-ak'-lay-tos
An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.




Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord (not a honda eh) in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

but adam b all this means nothing to you and would remain a problem to you based on the conflict you have with the claims that the bible was corrupted...
that is what d spike is taking you to task on ...yet you are ignoring him ...I dont think its wise to continue this conversation until you address that critical point that d spike raised
because all this hangs on it, so can you please take your time and address those issues for us? please! let us hear your views...at least I would appreciate if you can address it ..other wise it is worthless for us to go on....thanks!

this was adam b's last response

"ANOTHER" Comforter you say??!!!
Another!!!

Comforter!!! Why not the words "Holy Ghost" used??

Why, I though you all said that the Trinity comprises The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost.

But this is "another" Comforter, then there must be others. So maybe you need to change that Trinity thing to something reflecting more than one god, oh sorry, person.

Muslims believe that the scriptures have been changed, the name of our prophet Ahmad was there written but removed.

Also, the Spirit of Truth, refers to a name of our prophet which means "The Truthful One".

Jesus informed his disciples that Muhammad was to come and that "he (Jesus) had to go in order for Muhammad to come to "teach you all things".

Of course, you can dispute our claims but the fact remains that we do not disbelieve in Jesus but you disbelieve in Muhammad and anyone who disbelieves in any one of the messengers has disbelieved in all. Hence, is a disbeliever with GOD.

The same way you say that Gentiles don't have to follow the Law given to Moses, we say that it is upon you to leave what you have and follow the next one, the Law of Islam.

after this, his only response was about the bible being corrupted,once he makes that statement he thinks he don't need to properly address the issue

[megadoc1]

can somebody tell me why new species is addressing me and not the topic at hand?

[AdamB]

Habit,
The first christians were Unitarian, they never worshipped Jesus or in the name of Jesus!! Trinity came (fabricated) after 200-300+ yrs when the religion was reinvented to include worship of Jesus and the angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit).

huh?!!! Since when Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

I wonder if despite Muhammad's illiteracy, if he had read this verse, would Islam even be existing today.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Maybe he would not have wanted to commit suicide when the angel appeared to him but he would have know that even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14).

so how would he have known which is which?

It's like someone claiming to be a prophet telling you "Beware of false prophets who disguise themselves as true prophets".

They (christians) have no knowledge of what really exists in the seen and unseen world. Their book is corrupted / lost in translation, so they come up with all kinda "simmy dimmy" stuff they call beliefs.

Man making statement about what Satan is made from....they will believe any rubbish thrown at them.

If GOD is a spirit, Jesus is a man, then what is the Holy Ghost? The third part of the trinity is not the same as GOD's spirit? Then there is no need for a third!

Allyuh better petition the Pope to change that back to Holy Duality instead yes...

[AdamB]

A "Shake"*(sp) from Nigeria (Islamic High priest or something) was visiting my inlaws yesterday.They said he was asking for money to build a school. I asked them before he arrived:

1) What is the curriculum, or will only Islam be taught
2) when he builds this school out in the wilderness, will it have utilities?
3) Are children being educated now? Are there teaching programs with teachers being trained to occupy the school, even in they are teaching under a samman tree?
4) Will there be equal treatment of all denominations, religions and sexes?

I was asked not to insult the Shake. Just goes to show how people are willing to keep themselves blind to the fact that by supporting the religious leaders in less developed parts of the world the are actually helping perpetuate the worst parts of that culture that are not acceptable in our civilized part of the world.

Same goes to many of these Bramhin Hindu religious leaders who visit Trinidad... They perpetuate the caste system back in India... but fools will give them money for blessings. I do not want to be blessed by any third world crook thank you very much.... Learnt my lesson from HCU and Clico.

Crossdrilled,
You buy land from HCU by the tunnel?

The Shaykh referred to above is from Ghana. He spent many years here in Charlieville H/way mosque teaching Quran recitation to children and knowledge (classes / lectures) to adults. Like yuh didn't attend with your wife and her parents?

There are many crooks out there, but this Shaykh Saeed Aadam is genuine. Who knows maybe it's me! lol!

I'll try to take your questions to him, he has a lecture iin Charlieville on Fri or Sat i think. Go to the lecture (insha Allah), the man is real good...and I'm not talking about the kinda "christian evangelical preaching" that does ONLY appeal to emotions of ignorant fools.

[Habit7]

AdamB if our book is "corrupted/lost in translation" please show us the true Torah, Psalms and Gospel.

7:157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel

2:89 And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,

If it was with them in the 7th century, and the Dead Sea Scrolls among other manuscripts prove that the Law/Torah and the Psalms show no signs of corruption from the original text we have today, where are these non-corrupted Torah, Psalms and Gospels that Muhammad keep saying affirms him?

If the Quran claims that these books that were in the Christians and Jews possession in the 7th century affirms Muhammad, how come our copies of those books prior to Muhammad and our copies after Muhammad, bears no affirmation of his teachings but in fact condemnation of those like him?

End all speculation and present these Torah, Psalms and Gospels that affirm Islam.

[RBphoto]

I spoke normally to the man, he is a cool chap, but some people like to put other people on a pedestal and not question them or their motives. I honestly wanted to find out if he ever applied to the UN or anything for aid (seeing how long he building the school a few years now) but people don't want me to ask pertinent questions... He even look like a guy who would take no offence to the questions.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Well this is a little different. This is an angel pointing back to the book that claims that Immanuel, God among us, who said "it is finished," crucified and rose again, is now saying it is not really finished, you are the best of all men and everything I am telling you can be backed up by the Torah, Psalms and the Gospels.

Maybe if he had read John where he says "beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1) he would have realised what he was being told is inconsistent with source it claims to come from.

but it's one word against the other.

supposing the opposite of what you claim, that the first was false and the second came to correct the falseness that was being spread unto the world?

what if both are wrong and just the delusions and resulting rantings of mad men?

[megadoc1]

duane we could simply solve this by looking at the life styles lived by both men

yuh can check out this comparison http://carm.org/religious-movements/islam/comparison-between-jesus-and-muhammad

[Habit7]

Well they are not quite one claim against the other.

It is a first claim that has significant historical, archeological and prophetic support preceeding the claim being made, and then there is a second claim, that has no significant historical, archeological and prophetic support preceeding the claim being made. In fact, the majority of its support is appealed to in the first claim which when observed at a superfacial value, denys the truth of the second claim and even in a deeper investigation, it condemns it.

If they are both the rantings of man men then we have to be consistent and consider that other worldviews eminating from men or schools of thought that have had less of an impact or not as prolifict as Christianity and Islam, to be also rantings of man men and worthy of being disregarded.

I prefer to investiage their claims for truth and consistancy, and not just consider it to equal or ambiguous, because it is not.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

what historical, archeological and prophetic support does the Bible have over the Qur'an?

[New_SPECIES]

can somebody tell me why new species is addressing me and not the topic at hand?

You coming at me, talking big, with your baseless accusations, throwing talk, insults etc...

Then when I hit you back with some, you want to know why I addressing you!

These are a few of the ‘talk’ that you have thrown:

Typical muslim (new species)

New_SPECIES , why should anyone take you seriously?

*pelts shoes @ new species*

new species.........how did I defame the Islamic book ? by showing its inconsistencies?

yep! allah fooled people into thinking that Jesus was crucified

New_SPECIES, thanks for demonstrating your ignorance

typical ,runs in ched hot and sweaty, makes baseless claims ,conveniently becomes busy and runs off as to avoid the wall he ran into

a perfect example of the flawed logic Muslims use

its just stupidity on their part

and in doing this they prove their ridiculous theory right!

anyways new species has failed in both his interpretation of the bible and the Qur'an and he did this just to avoid admitting that Allah deceived people...lol but what they say? its ok to lie about islam?

All that mentioned above is your BIG TALK towards me...

And you wondering why I was responding TO YOU........?

Then you can’t even defend issues that I brought forward, but you and Habit7 only coming back with that “Allah is a deceiver” crap.

Even though both AdamB and I, addressed that issue showing you where you simply interpreted what you wanted to create a case for yourself!



NOW........IN RESPONSE TO THIS.........

duane we could simply solve this by looking at the life styles lived by both men

yuh can check out this comparison http://carm.org/religious-movements/islam/comparison-between-jesus-and-muhammad

This is exactly what I was always speaking about before:

“Christians” using websites that “Christians” made up to spread allegations, slander, and blaspheme about Islam.

This is a perfect example!

How is it that the table mentioned in the website, has quotes from the Bible ONLY but their statements about Prophet Muhammad is only reference by the Quran when it was BEST SUITED for them...?

And of course.... they take it out of context and RUN WITH IT!

_____________________________________________________________

For your information... even the Quran mentions the Greatness of the Prophet Jesus and his accomplishments, miracles etc..

It even states that Jesus is held in a very high position with god...

You (the "Christians") have to understand something... it's not like Muslims think that Muhammad is better that Jesus... it is just the message brought is what was considered.

Muhammad is just mentioned more because his message was considered to be a summary of all the other (true) prophets of the past.

But Jesus is always mentioned in Muslims' Prayers, etc..

SO like I said, stop talking in ignorance!

[megadoc1]

new speicies can you address any issue raised here without rhetoric?
I think new species is offended

[Habit7]

what historical, archeological and prophetic support does the Bible have over the Qur'an?

Isaiah 53

[New_SPECIES]

new species can you address any issue raised here without rhetoric?

Well....... if you want to keep bringing up rhetoric accusations about the Quran and Islam then I will continue to respond...

Then if to you my answer is rhetoric, then it means that people just telling you the same thing over and over and you just putting up a brick wall against it.


You all keep asking the same nonsense that we keep answering and it not registering...

Then you will come again and make the same accusation (eg. “Allah is the greatest deceiver”), but you telling me I bringing up rhetoric issues?

But when I bring up an issue, you claim that it was proven erroneous already and you choose to say nothing.

Probably it’s because you need time to search the net...

Strangely enough...... the issues that you say were proven erroneous were always defended by someone and NEW Issues were then raised, and so on..... (I Checked!)

Therefore, who closed which file and came to a conclusion?

Then my question is...............

If the accusations are rhetoric and the answers from both sides are rhetoric, then just LOCK the Thread!

[Habit7]

New_SPECIES your attempt to deflect is as poor as you attempt to explain Surah 4:157

[AdamB]

what historical, archeological and prophetic support does the Bible have over the Qur'an?

Isaiah 53

Ha Ha Ha!!! Finally somebody asking the same question I have been alluding to.

Is that the best you can do? Is that what you risk your hereafter upon?

Historical? Try to get facts with evidence to back up. Scrolls, carbon dating, language (spoken, understood), plus evidence of who wrote them and HOW they were preserved (kept authentic).

Archeological? Dead sea scrolls don't count...how do you know if it wasn't written to include the "corruptions" that they wanted to add to the bible?

Prophetic? There is no real evidence that Jesus ever existed. If you have, bring it (evidence not beliefs). Also try to bring evidence that Muhammad never existed.

Let's see then...(evidence vs conjecture).

[AdamB]

Most appropriate, thanks Megadoc...you've done your good deed for the day!

Jesus informed his disciples that Muhammad was to come and that "he (Jesus) had to go in order for Muhammad to come to "teach you all things".

Of course, you can dispute our claims but the fact remains that we do not disbelieve in Jesus but you disbelieve in Muhammad and anyone who disbelieves in any one of the messengers has disbelieved in all. Hence, is a disbeliever with GOD.

The same way you say that Gentiles don't have to follow the Law given to Moses, we say that it is upon you to leave what you have and follow the next one, the Law of Islam.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

what historical, archeological and prophetic support does the Bible have over the Qur'an?

Isaiah 53

it is also possible to claim 9/11 was prophesied by Nostradamus.

What about the archeological and historical?

[MG Man]

anyone who can show me a holy book professing that chicken-foot souse does lash, will have my vote

[megadoc1]

Let's see then...(evidence vs conjecture).

thats right ! all we are getting from the Muslim camp is conjecture! no evidence whatsoever,we suffered pages upon pages of baseless accusations coming from these guys ,with nothing to corroborate their statements besides the quran , and every new comer to the ched proceeds down the same route as if they are programed or something...

but the last one is kix, new species is his name, when we quote from the Qur'an he says we are quoting from a mistranslation and accuse us of purposely mistranslating the Qur'an to defame it but when he provide a source that to him is considered legit guess what ? it said THE SAME EXACT THING! when he is shown this he proceeds to take on the task of an interpreter trying to make the verse say anything other than what it was saying..lol what is laughable is while he is doing this he is putting a hole in their common argument WRT the many translations of the bible...lol

but anyways they continue saying the bible is corrupted,they are yet to tell us when, how and by whom ..

[New_SPECIES]

New_SPECIES your attempt to deflect is as poor as you attempt to explain Surah 4:157

I deflecting?


FIRSTLY

You pulled the Translation of Surah 4:157 from one of your “Christian” slandering websites. Then you began to make a case for yourself using the misinterpreted, wrong translation of the Quranic Verse.


SECONDLY

I provided you with the CORRECT translation of the verse and quoted an authentic site for your reference.


THIRDLY

I then further provided BEFORE and AFTER verses of the same Surah to help you to comprehend the correct translation and to also show why yours was Clearly Wrong.


FOURTHLY

I went as far as to BREAK DOWN the verse of the Surah you quoted to explained it to you LINE BY LINE...


NOW you still asking me the same question and accusing me of “deflecting” from explaining to you..

What Is Really Wrong With You?

I thought that discussions with you might have been on a mature level, but it looks like your intentions are just like many others.... to annoy believers in Islam with continuous baseless accusations, although the truth is blatant, clear and right in front you.

You think that by continuously reposting your ridiculous comment on that Surah; that Readers will think you have a valid point or question that is un-answered?

If you don't believe in what I am saying or what the Quran actually has written, just say so and stop making it look like I didn't answer you.


AGAIN I will Explain your FALSE ACCUSATION of the Quranic Verse 4:156-157


If for some reason you misunderstood me before or I may have mistyped something before, Let me clear everything up Once and For ALL...


QUOTED EXACTLY AS IT SHOULD BE:

Quran 4:157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-


TAKE IT LINE BY LINE (AGAIN!):


• That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";

- The ‘Romans’ who are attempting to deceive the observers; are saying to them:
“We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"


•but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

- the Quran is saying that they (the ‘Romans’), did not kill him, nor crucified him.
- But the ‘Romans’ made it appear to the observers that he was crucified


• and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,

- the Quran is saying that those who believe that he (Jesus) was killed or crucified are ‘full of doubts’ and doesn’t know for certain, but live only with assumptions that they were presented with by the ‘Romans’.


• for of a surety they killed him not:-

- the Quran confirms again, that Jesus was not killed!



I will even return to these verses (that I posted before): Quran Surah 3

QUOTED EXACTLY AS IT SHOULD BE:

Quran 3:51
"It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

Explanation: This verse clearly refutes the later “Christian” doctrine of the Trinity and the sonship of Jesus ascribed to him. Jesus looks upon himself to be as human and as subservient to God as any other mortal.

Quran 3:52
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

Explanation: Shows that the disciples of Jesus were proclaiming their belief in the teachings of Jesus and declaring that they are muslims.

Quran 3:53
"Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle; then write us down among those who bear witness."

Explanation: Not only did the disciples of Jesus heartily respond to his call for aid, but also bore witness to his truth both by words of mouth and by their good example of faithful conduct. The verse also makes it clear that the disciples looked upon Jesus as only a messenger of God with no claim to divinity.

Quran 3:54
And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

Explanation: This verse is concerning the plot to kill Jesus... The ‘Romans’ plotted and planned to kill Jesus but Allah had his own plans for Jesus, which was to raise him up to the heavens before the ‘Romans’ could get to him and kill him... A plan fulfilled, since the plan of the ‘Roman’ evil doers can never supersede the plan of God.


Regardless of whether you use the words plan / scheme / plot; the actual meaning of the verse is to show that the ‘Romans’ tried to plan / scheme / plot to kill Jesus but failed since Allah saved Jesus and raised him up to him in the heavens before the romans could kill or torture him.


Quran 3:55
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

EXPLANATION:
The verse says that Allah will take thee and raise thee, it doesn’t say that Jesus was killed. It states that Jesus was raised or taken up to Allah as in agreement with sura 4:157. Moreover the Hadith clearly indicate that Jesus is still alive and will return one day:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said:
"By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler).................." (Bukhari Volume 4 Book 5 #657)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said:
"How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel” (Bukhari Volume 4 Book 55 #658)


CONCLUSION:
The Quranic verses contain no error or contradiction. What one verse says is that Jesus was taken up alive and another says that many but not all messengers have died before Prophet Mohammed. The Quran and the Hadith indicate that Jesus is alive and one day he will return.
The Quran is a perfect book, with absolutely no error/contradiction.
The same can’t be said about the Bible though.

_____________________________________________________________________

Your issues with the verse are something that many people in high positions in your religion have argued about for decades. Do you now think that some kind of understanding can come out from you, based on information presented on this mere forum?

Aside from that, I realized that you like to “pretend” to quote from the Quran and give your own contradictory interpretations of it, then tell everyone in the Forum “this is the truth”.....

.......There is even a verse in the Quran that warns about people like you, who misguide others with wrongful information and inaccurate translations from the Quran. See it here:

Quran 3:78
There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

______________________________________________________________


I have a few questions for you though!

Can you speak the Original Language of your Book?

Can you read the Original Language of your Book?

Can you translate the Original Language of your Book?

Well..... like most TRUE Muslims, I can read, write and talk the original language of my book. This is known to muslims as something they should ensure they learn, so as to always have the true meaning of the script rather than some one’s interpretation or misguided translation.

So... even when you are quoting YOUR OWN BOOK, you are just taking someone else’s misinterpreted translation of the Original Bible (along with their opinions)...

To prove this to you, (when I get more time), I will show you ACTUAL QUOTES from your Bible that has hundreds of contradictions.

And these contradictions in the Bible arose from the fact that man (with their ‘infinite’ wisdom) decided to revise a book / books of God into what is now called the Bible...

[megadoc1]

New_SPECIES your attempt to deflect is as poor as you attempt to explain Surah 4:157

I deflecting?


FIRSTLY

You pulled the Translation of Surah 4:157 from one of your “Christian” slandering websites. Then you began to make a case for yourself using the misinterpreted, wrong translation of the Quranic Verse.

man what wrong with you? the translation you provided said the same thing !

[New_SPECIES]

As opposed to Islam, which equates godliness with every believer acting like a 7th century monotheistic Quraish Tribe member. The God of the Bible knew that culture would change along with technology and many other modernities, and did not give His followers closed-ended rules that struggle to be applied to the modern world .............

But strict laws exist for Priests and Nuns to follow where they cannot marry, date etc...

Although to marry and to have children is part of human nature and a command from God.

Not even a “Tribe Member Law” has rules like that, but you make accusations against Islam...

No leader in the Islamic Society is restricted from anything that the average person is allowed to do.

But again... there you are... And of course you have some kinda weird explanation for that!

[Mr. Red Sleeper]

**Whew** this should be renamed the The official neverending thread

[MG Man]

yes, but...why is the rum gone?

[Mr. Red Sleeper]

because it is a vile drink that turns even the most respectable men into complete scoundrels.

[speedist]

savvy

[Habit7]

what historical, archeological and prophetic support does the Bible have over the Qur'an?

Isaiah 53

it is also possible to claim 9/11 was prophesied by Nostradamus.

Prove it. Prove that Nostradamus prophesied 9/11 with equal or superseding specificity as Isaiah 53 prophesied the life, ministry and death of Jesus.

[Habit7]

Setting the rhetoric aside, I took your advice and used http://www.muslimaccess.com and I not only read the translations, but the tafsir of Imam Ibn Kathir and...let me just compare him with you.

Quran 4:157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

TAKE IT LINE BY LINE (AGAIN!):

• That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";

- The ‘Romans’ who are attempting to deceive the observers; are saying to them:
“We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"

•but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

- the Quran is saying that they (the ‘Romans’), did not kill him, nor crucified him.
- But the ‘Romans’ made it appear to the observers that he was crucified

• and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,

- the Quran is saying that those who believe that he (Jesus) was killed or crucified are ‘full of doubts’ and doesn’t know for certain, but live only with assumptions that they were presented with by the ‘Romans’.

• for of a surety they killed him not:-

- the Quran confirms again, that Jesus was not killed!

The Jews also said,

﴿إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ﴾

("We killed Al-Masih, `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'') meaning, we killed the person who claimed to be the Messenger of Allah....

...That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep. Allah said,

﴿إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يعِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ﴾

(And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself.'') When `Isa ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like `Isa, they thought that he was `Isa. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. The Jews then boasted that they killed `Isa and some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with `Isa, they witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed `Isa by crucifixion.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=59

So Jews not Romans made the boast about killing Jesus and Allah made it appear that Jesus was crucified by providing a double.

Either Ibn Kathir had been reading one of those “Christian” slandering websites or...you might be wrong.

[AdamB]

Setting the rhetoric aside, I took your advice and used http://www.muslimaccess.com and I not only read the translations, but the tafsir of Imam Ibn Kathir and...let me just compare him with you.

Quran 4:157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

TAKE IT LINE BY LINE (AGAIN!):

• That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";

- The ‘Romans’ who are attempting to deceive the observers; are saying to them:
“We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"

•but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

- the Quran is saying that they (the ‘Romans’), did not kill him, nor crucified him.
- But the ‘Romans’ made it appear to the observers that he was crucified

• and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,

- the Quran is saying that those who believe that he (Jesus) was killed or crucified are ‘full of doubts’ and doesn’t know for certain, but live only with assumptions that they were presented with by the ‘Romans’.

• for of a surety they killed him not:-

- the Quran confirms again, that Jesus was not killed!

The Jews also said,

﴿إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ﴾

("We killed Al-Masih, `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'') meaning, we killed the person who claimed to be the Messenger of Allah....

...That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep. Allah said,

﴿إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يعِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ﴾

(And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself.'') When `Isa ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like `Isa, they thought that he was `Isa. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. The Jews then boasted that they killed `Isa and some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with `Isa, they witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed `Isa by crucifixion.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=59

So Jews not Romans made the boast about killing Jesus and Allah made it appear that Jesus was crucified by providing a double.

Either Ibn Kathir had been reading one of those “Christian” slandering websites or...you might be wrong.

ibn Kathir is right but that does not mean that New Species is wrong. The Romans may have wanted to kill Jesus because he was causing "trouble" among the jews. Quranic verses allow more than one meaning as long as they don't contradict each other.