The Religion Discussion

[megadoc1]

I have the truth and the knowledge, but people like you who probably still living in their mother’s house are accustomed to having everything spoon fed to them.

don't know what yuh getting at but how does living with your parent prevents one from acquiring truth and knowledge?

When I was looking for authentic information I did full background checks, matched information with numerous sites, and other various methods, to ensure that I am not misguided.

but if you are already misguided wouldnt you look for information that agrees with you? there are many sites alongside those you reference that teaches how erroneous islam is
why you disregard them?

Because I told you that your source is invalid you vex, but you didn’t do any verifications whatsoever..

breds get your facts right! what source of mine are invalid?.
I did not give you any to look at to begin with ..what are you smoking?

If someone (a leader) decided to tell you something about your religion from your church, won’t to try to validate it somewhere else, or will you just run with it?.

you are on the wrong level pal ..we are dealing with the contents of written religious text that are before us..leave the sunday school or whatever you guys call it in your faith out of this ok!

But you are running with anything else you hear about other religions and then coming to a forum to denounce them.

please provide an example of this or just shut up with your baseless cliams

You are defaming the Islamic book and when I told you that you sources are false, you say I can’t be taken seriously.

how did I defame the Islamic book ? by showing its inconsistencies? you are yet to provide us with an authentic website that carries a true translation of the quran so that we dont have this problem...why cant you save us the trouble

Now you are asking me about validation and authenticity!

well sir you claimed that the ones we quoted from are false so all I am asking sir is that you provide us with a legit version so that we can have our facts right ..is that to difficult for you?

What do you really want me to do, give you a list of sites that you should and shouldn’t take information from?

just give me one that you consider legit..thanks

All I will provide is one site that you can find the scripture that I quoted some Translations from, and that is:
http://www.muslimaccess.com

thank you sir Ill be back in a bit

[megadoc1]

new species, the source you gave says the same thing

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/004.asp
yep! allah fooled people into thinking that Jesus was crucified

[New_SPECIES]

I did:

With respect to you mischaracterisations of the morals Christians, it is as irrelevant to the discussion as the violence and terrorism perpetrated by Muslims. Likewise the variances of Christian denominations are proportional to the variances in Islamic sects. Let us discuss what the Bible teaches vs. the Quran or vice versa to get the purest understanding of the religion, then we will see if those who apply it are acting consistently with its doctrines.

You painting Christianity with an erroneous broad brush of ridiculousness would be equally wrong of me painting Islam as a militant religion and terrorism factory. Let us see Islam in its truest form in the Quran and let us see Christianity in its truest form in the Bible.

I never said anything about “Morals of Christians”; I was just showing what is being allowed in churches and the guidelines that were laid out for Christians to follow...

My point is that there is basically no hard and fast rules to maintain order and decency, especially for prayer!

No detail guidelines for you to follow from the book!
Especially if compared to the Quran...

I was comparing strict rules and regulations laid out for Muslims to follow in a mosque as compared to the lack of regulations present for prayer in church rituals etc...

And my point was that a book was required as a follow up of the Bible to provide these guidelines!

When I was looking for authentic information I did full background checks, matched information with numerous sites, and other various methods, to ensure that I am not misguided.

Could you please tell us the website that informed you that someone drew a sketch of Jesus and that the gospel accounts were "almost hundreds of years apart" so that we can all avoid them just like you are avoiding my first question of whether Allah of the Quran deceived the observers of the crucifixion?

Did I ever tell you that everything I say is from a website?

I was merely stating the obvious...

During Easter, Jesus pictures / videos are seen all over the country / world.

It is Christian churches and ministries who sponsor these shows. These shows have clear distinction of the way the man might have looked etc.

And what I have also said about the pictures is what I have seen with my own eyes hanging in the houses of many.

It is also what I have seen in churches and places of worship by Christians. Believe it or not, I have visited many churches for their Sunday worship during the ‘confused’ period of my life.

And I am telling you that these pictures and videos have created segregation and separation between races and sects in humanity due to misinterpretation of the images.

You should direct your questions and concerns to these ministries and leaders of your religion who promote these things.

..........................................

When I was talking about hundreds of years apart, I was generally showing an average time frame between the books of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad etc. Not giving exact year count to that matter!

You see, that’s the problem with Christians and interpretations... They take everything Literal!

That’s what caused alot of misconceptions from the Bible as well...


Bet that as it may....

You still haven’t defended yourself and touched on guidelines given to you from your book concerning the points I have previously mentioned.

By bringing down Islam is not proving to me that your religion is final and complete!

[Habit7]

I am not going to defend your anecdotal experience of what a church is and who you think did a sketch of Jesus' for his carpenter permit.

Please confirm or deny whether Allah of the Quran deceived the observers of the crucifixion?




The more you are avoiding the question the more you are shouting the answer.

[New_SPECIES]

Please confirm or deny whether Allah of the Quran deceived the observers of the crucifixion?

The more you are avoiding the question the more you are shouting the answer.

(1) I quoted from the Quran the exact scripture where your misguidance came from...

(2) I showed you that your source of the Translation is from a Blaspheming Website...

(3) I gave you the correct Translation of the Arabic scripture...

(4) I also provided before and after verses for you to understand where the correct meaning came from.

(5) I even gave an authentic website to gather such information

...................................

BUT you still saying that I haven’t answered your Question?

AND you saying that my silence is shouting the answer?

WHAT silence????

You are starting to behave ignorant as other people in this thread!

Let me read and spell for you: NO Allah never deceived the people about Jesus....!

LIKE I SAID BEFORE:

It looks like you pick and choose which battle you want to fight, them stick with your story no matter who says what...

You are here trying to blame the ignorance of your people, and the lack of their attempt to search and find the truth on God, by saying that God deceived them when they interpreted what they wanted and just “Ran With It”.

If that’s what YOU believe then keep running!

I spoke enough about that already...

Concerning this:

I am not going to defend your anecdotal experience of what a church is .......

It seems as though you are displaying the same qualities that you are accusing me of...

That is: Hiding from a question or concern!

Did I give the impression that the concerns I raised was from personal experience?
Because I said that I saw it for myself in the church, doesn’t mean that the question is only based on what I saw.
It is shown on television everyday...

There is also alot of people I know who are Christians and give these same experiences.

What I told you, is what happens right now, and if this is not supposed to happen, then tell me from your book what is supposed to happen!

All I am asking is to quote from Your Book where the guidelines are for these basic aspects of life....

Why is it so difficult for you?

I’ll raise the concern AGAIN:

So now tell me... if your book is the ultimate and final book with everything u need to know about the correct way of life, do’s and don’ts etc, then how is that so many things are missing. And how is looking as though Jesus left out some things.....

Such as:

(1) A defined way for believers to pray: (I’ll expand on just this one to show you what I’m saying)

In Christian Churches:
• You have some people jumping up and down
• You hear them sing songs that man wrote and told them to sing
• Some people just sit and hear some man talk and they feel blessed
• Some people get slapped in their heads and forced to knock out cold on the ground
• Some people put their hands in the sky and repeat anything the pastor say
• Some people go to track man/woman and still come out feeling blessed
• Some people Sing Soca and Rap and calling Jesus Name and they feeling blessed (eg. Jump Up and Wave for Jesus). Next thing they will say is, "take a wine for Jesus!"...
• People are allowed to dress decent and others basically whatever they wish to wear (eg. Tight clothes, mini-skirts, exposing clothing etc)
• Some churches have different payer times to others and try to make it convenient for people (as though the worship of god is for ‘when we have time’)................etc, etc, etc...



In Islamic Mosques:

• Since u clearly know nothing about the religion, then maybe if u ever see on tv the way muslims pray, u will notice that it is standardized throughout the world.
• Everyone following the same physical motion of prostration to god, no matter which country they are in.
• Everyone recites prayer that is standardized.
• Men and women are separate, to prevent temptation from the other sex.
• The believers are thought to maintain order and discipline even while praying hence the straight lines formed.
• A code of dress is maintained in all places of worship for both men and women.
• Before ever praying or entering a place of worship, certain routines of cleanliness must be performed (eg. Routine of washing hands, feet, face, neck, ears, mouth, etc).
• Times for major prayers are fixed (and are not for when u have time).

The Islam and Quran also teaches...
(2) How a person should speak; in public, to each other, to strangers, to their spouse, etc
(3) How a person should eat; how much, when, where, posture while eating, what to eat, etc
(4) How to Dress; to pray, to go out, to stay at home, etc
(5) How to generally carry about themselves; at home, with relatives, with strangers, etc
(6) How to treat others; your spouse, your friends, your relatives, your neighbours, etc

And many other guidelines such as: how to sleep, how to bath...etc. etc.

These are essential guidelines that make people say that Islam too ‘strict’.

What it does is, give answers to all questions that might be of an uncertainty to someone in a particular situation. It ensures that the believer is sure that he/she is doing the right thing. It also grants the believer with extra blessings for doing routine ‘everyday’ duties, in accordance with the scripture.

What specific guidelines have you been given by your book?

My point is that the Quran was meant to be a follow up of the Bible hence the missing ‘detailed’ guidelines as is mentioned in the Quran.

[New_SPECIES]

new species, the source you gave says the same thing

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/004.asp
yep! allah fooled people into thinking that Jesus was crucified

Anybody with a basic secondary school education could get the basic interpretation of that paragraph!


AGAIN............... I’LL READ & SPELL..............


• “That they said (in boast)”
– “They” means the people who had Jesus in captivity

• "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"
– said by these same people

• “but they killed him not, nor crucified him,”
– the Quran states that he was not crucified

• “but so it was made to appear to them”
– meaning the same people who claimed that they ‘killed’ Jesus are the same people who deceived the observers that he was killed..

• “and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not”
– the Quran states that the people who believe that he was killed are only doing so based on their own assumption / speculation. Then the Quran confirms again that he was not killed!


Like I said before... You keep returning with the same baseless accusations even though I provide the exact scripture and give explanations...

If you choose to interpret the paragraph in a way that is pleasing to you, then go right ahead!


The Quran even has an entire Surah for people like you:

“To you be your way, to me mine”

Quran: Surah 109: Verse 6


Check it Here:

http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/109.asp

[marlener]

I am a bit confused,a little further up I remember reading that the website are checked and a list of authentic websites are posted in the mosque for believers who wish to study more,correct me if I am wrong. If this is indeed the case then what is the problem with simply posting some of those same website on the thread so we can study them as well the same way visitors to the mosques are provided with authentic websites. Seems reasonable.@ new_SPECIES as I said I think that ur statement on the pictures of Jesus are simply ur personal opinion and not a generally accepted fact.

[Habit7]

(1) A defined way for believers to pray: (I’ll expand on just this one to show you what I’m saying)
(2) How a person should speak; in public, to each other, to strangers, to their spouse, etc
(3) How a person should eat; how much, when, where, posture while eating, what to eat, etc
(4) How to Dress; to pray, to go out, to stay at home, etc
(5) How to generally carry about themselves; at home, with relatives, with strangers, etc
(6) How to treat others; your spouse, your friends, your relatives, your neighbours, etc

1] Luke 11:1-4 It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.” And He said to them, “When you pray, say:‘Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.‘Give us each day our daily bread.‘And forgive us our sins,For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.’”
2] Colossians 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person. Ephesians 4:29, Colossians 3:8, 1 Thessalonians 5:11, Colossians 3:16, James 1:26
3] 1 Timothy 4:4-5For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. Acts 10:13-16, Mark 7:18-19
4] 1 Peter 3:3-4Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 1 Timothy 2:9-10, 1 Corinthians 12:23
5] Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.Galatians 6:16-24
6] Ephesians 5:22-6:9

I will address this red herring/strawman fallacy to let you know that in the Bible we have everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence (1 Peter 1:3). The Bible doesnt just give us law but theological principles that can be applied within context, culture, location, time and can stand the test of time. Furthermore, through salvation by the work of our Lord Jesus, we also receive God the Holy Spirit who indwells us and daily informs us and reminds us of God's holy standard (John 16:7-11).

As opposed to Islam, which equates godliness with every believer acting like a 7th century monotheistic Quraish Tribe member. The God of the Bible knew that culture would change along with technology and many other modernities, and did not give His followers closed-ended rules that struggle to be applied to the modern world but godly principles that can continually inform and shape culture and still do the purpose God's Law is suppose to do: convict us of sin, and show us our need of a Saviour.

WRT to your caricature of a Christian worship service, it is first of all, anecdotal. I and many others attend churches that have ordered liturgies that in no way reflect the picture you are painting. You claim that ppl bring up topic in this threat that has been dealt with before, and I have spoken out against some of what you mentioned happening in the church because the Bible says concerning the worship service "let all things be done decently and in order" 1 Corinthians 14:40. I can’t say that the improper motives of church attendees "to track man/woman” or "sit and hear some man talk and they feel blessed" can’t be said of mosque attendees or if putting one's hands in the air and repeating a pastor is different from putting one's hands in the air and repeating Muhammad.

Conversely, I too can easily watch Islamic television and see a Saudi imam instructing husbands how to beat their wives, an Egyptian Islamic leader tell others it is ok to lie to non-believers about Islam so that they could convert; and when they find out the truth threaten to kill them if they leave Islam or I can turn on the news and see thousands of attacks carried out in the name of Islam including one where an Islamic man butchered an off duty solider in the streets of London, stand around to justify what he did by the teachings of the Quran and then condemn other Islamists who are not doing likewise. (A couple days later an Islamist in France stabbed a soldier in the neck with the same justification.)

So we can go anecdote against anecdote but anecdotes are not the source of the problem, let us investigate the sources and see if those who perform the anecdote are acting consistently with their sources.

[Habit7]

• “That they said (in boast)”
– “They” means the people who had Jesus in captivity

• "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"
– said by these same people

• “but they killed him not, nor crucified him,”
– the Quran states that he was not crucified

• “but so it was made to appear to them”
– meaning the same people who claimed that they ‘killed’ Jesus are the same people who deceived the observers that he was killed..

• “and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not”
– the Quran states that the people who believe that he was killed are only doing so based on their own assumption / speculation. Then the Quran confirms again that he was not killed!

if you would allow me to continue:

4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

The first error in this verse is that Jews would call Jesus "Christ" which would mean that He is the Messiah, the Anointed One. Secondly that they would even say that He was an apostle from God. Why? Because they were killing Him because He was making those claims.

Furthermore, your interpretation is quite a novel one, are you saying that the "they" in the first line is different from the "them" in forth line? Because no new subject (namely observers) is introduced into the sentence. The "them" is a indirect object pronoun to a passive action "being made to appear to" where someone made "it" (the crucifixion) "to appear to them."

That someone is proudly proclaimed in the subsequent verse: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise


If I am wrong show me in Arabic how the "they" (Jews) somehow becomes the "them" (observers), and how the passive action being done unto "them" is not by Allah.

[New_SPECIES]

_______________________________________________
Below is an Example of ADVANCED IGNORANCE.......
_________________________________________________

I have the truth and the knowledge, but people like you who probably still living in their mother’s house are accustomed to having everything spoon fed to them.

don't know what yuh getting at but how does living with your parent prevents one from acquiring truth and knowledge?

Like a child in his mother’s house, being lazy ---- I was trying to show you that you are making no attempts to verify your own sources of information (due to your laziness), but ready to defend it.

Like a child in his mother's house, being spoon fed everything ---- You want me to tell you where to look and where not to look for correct info, without verifying for yourself!

When I was looking for authentic information I did full background checks, matched information with numerous sites, and other various methods, to ensure that I am not misguided.

but if you are already misguided wouldnt you look for information that agrees with you? there are many sites alongside those you reference that teaches how erroneous islam is
why you disregard them?

Like I said in previous posts.......

Check the background of the authors of those sites that you are referring to. If the authors have been known to spread accusations, slander, blaspheme and wrong translations of the Quran, then how can you take what they say as the facts from the Quran?

....................Or is it YOU, who are looking for info that argee with your belief?

.........................."Pot calling Kettle Black?"

Because I told you that your source is invalid you vex, but you didn’t do any verifications whatsoever..

breds get your facts right! What source of mine is invalid?
I did not give you any to look at to begin with.. What are you smoking?

I was referring to your previous post!

Your ignorance is clearly seen since you started an argument and eventually forgot what the argument was started about in the first place!

This is what I was referring to.....

When YOU said:

”the quran clearly states that allah is the greatest of deceivers it also demonstrates this by saying that allah , only made it to look like they crucified Jesus...so who is to blame for what the disciples believed, preached and died for afterwards? why allah chose to betray those who carefully listened to his prophet Jesus?”

REMEMBER NOW?

Your invalid source of this treachery is what I was talking about over and over!

If someone (a leader) decided to tell you something about your religion from your church, won’t to try to validate it somewhere else, or will you just run with it?.

you are on the wrong level pal ..we are dealing with the contents of written religious text that are before us..leave the sunday school or whatever you guys call it in your faith out of this ok!

Did I ever say anything about a ‘school’ or ‘classes’?

I really don’t know what to say about you again nah!

I was talking about, someone (eg. a Pastor, etc), in a church, advising you about something you did not know.....
I was asking if you would have just taken it for granted or tried to verify it for yourself.
Because that’s what you were doing with info from the net........ Just “Running with it”...

You say your arguments are based on “religious text” but if you ‘religious text’ is wrong or from a blaspheming site then how can you argue?

But you are running with anything else you hear about other religions and then coming to a forum to denounce them.

please provide an example of this or just shut up with your baseless claims

I just showed you above... where you made a statement that was acquired from an inaccurate source!

You are defaming the Islamic book and when I told you that you sources are false, you say I can’t be taken seriously.

how did I defame the Islamic book ? by showing its inconsistencies? you are yet to provide us with an authentic website that carries a true translation of the quran so that we dont have this problem...why cant you save us the trouble

“DEFAME” – insult, slander, libel, denigrate, offend, deprecate, disparage....

....................Do you now know what ‘defame’ means?

That’s what you were doing with the Quran since you are making baseless accusations and making statements that were never there in the book.

How can you show inconsistencies of a book when your ‘QUOTES’ from the book are WRONG?

Further.... how can you show inconsistencies of Arabic when you can’t even understand English Posts on this thread!
.................................................................

Like I said over nine (9) times......... I did provide website!

................. to get further info on what I was speaking about, but you are conveniently blind!

Now you are asking me about validation and authenticity!

well sir you claimed that the ones we quoted from are false so all I am asking sir is that you provide us with a legit version so that we can have our facts right ..is that to difficult for you?

Like I said over ten (10) times......... I did provide website!

What do you really want me to do, give you a list of sites that you should and shouldn’t take information from?

just give me one that you consider legit..thanks

Like I said over eleven (11) times......... I did provide website!

All I will provide is one site that you can find the scripture that I quoted some Translations from, and that is:
http://www.muslimaccess.com

thank you sir Ill be back in a bit

Looks like you NOW WOKE UP?

[megadoc1]

New_SPECIES, thanks for demonstrating your advanced ignorance but its not what we were asking for, all we wanted was genuine answers to the questions posed

[New_SPECIES]

I am a bit confused,a little further up I remember reading that the website are checked and a list of authentic websites are posted in the mosque for believers who wish to study more,correct me if I am wrong. If this is indeed the case then what is the problem with simply posting some of those same website on the thread so we can study them as well the same way visitors to the mosques are provided with authentic websites. Seems reasonable.@ new_SPECIES as I said I think that ur statement on the pictures of Jesus are simply ur personal opinion and not a generally accepted fact.

I don't have the exact list of sites that I saw, on me right now...

Even if I did; almost every day a new slandering site is posted up. The list I was talking about just has some of the major, larger sites that really pretend to be Islamic.

And the mosques in my location (Port of Spain) are very small mosques that don't really display much information under that topic.

In order to ensure that the website is official, as I said before, check the authors; check their history, track record, etc.
Check other sites that their information would be on.
Most of the times, it is easy to catch the sneaky, blaspheming ones. But they are getting more and more skilled with deceit by doing their best to hide background info on these guys from the internet.
So day by day certian sites are getting more and more difficult to determine.

When we are in doubt and challenged about our religion, we would just simply go back to the original book itself in Arabic Language to get valid info.


I can give you a list of a few well known Authors who are slanderers of Islam (just for reference):

(1) Ann Coulter
(2) Ayaan Hirsi Ali
(3) Irshad Manji
(4) Hassan Butt
(5) Melanie Phillips
(6) Robert Spencer
(7) Salman Rushdie
(8) Tawfik Hamid
(9) Theodore Dalrymple (Anthony Daniels)
(10) V.S.Naipaul
(11) Wafa Sultan

[megadoc1]

new species, take a look at this video and tell me what you think

[Habit7]

But before he does, he needs to justify his interpretation he offered

[New_SPECIES]

(1) A defined way for believers to pray: (I’ll expand on just this one to show you what I’m saying)
(2) How a person should speak; in public, to each other, to strangers, to their spouse, etc
(3) How a person should eat; how much, when, where, posture while eating, what to eat, etc
(4) How to Dress; to pray, to go out, to stay at home, etc
(5) How to generally carry about themselves; at home, with relatives, with strangers, etc
(6) How to treat others; your spouse, your friends, your relatives, your neighbours, etc

1] Luke 11:1-4 It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.” And He said to them, “When you pray, say:‘Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.‘Give us each day our daily bread.‘And forgive us our sins,For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.’”

What you have quoted there is not a detailed guideline as to how and what exactly is needed to be said for a prayer. That is a general statement!
Therefore..........my point is proven...

2] Colossians 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person. Ephesians 4:29, Colossians 3:8, 1 Thessalonians 5:11, Colossians 3:16, James 1:26

Another statement open to mis-interpretation......generalized.............no details!

3] 1 Timothy 4:4-5For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. Acts 10:13-16, Mark 7:18-19

Another statement up for argument and contradictions, since the Old Testament has strict guidelines on what should and should not be eaten.
Then when Jesus was “crucified” according to you, Laws changed, Rules dropped, Eat and drink what you want now.........right?

4] 1 Peter 3:3-4Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 1 Timothy 2:9-10, 1 Corinthians 12:23

How can this be a specific guideline..... like I said up for mis-interpretation!
How can someone read that before going out or going to work and know EXACTLY what to wear...?
Alot of the statements are left up to a particular interpretation of the reader.

5] Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.Galatians 6:16-24

That is why the atheists give you so much trouble...
How does a misguided person coming onto the straight path determine: whatever is true?, whatever is right?, whatever is pure?, whatever is lovely?

Example: What is “Lovely” to one person is “Indecent” to another, etc...

6] Ephesians 5:22-6:9

I will address this red herring/strawman fallacy to let you know that in the Bible we have everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence (1 Peter 1:3). The Bible doesnt just give us law but theological principles that can be applied within context, culture, location, time and can stand the test of time. Furthermore, through salvation by the work of our Lord Jesus, we also receive God the Holy Spirit who indwells us and daily informs us and reminds us of God's holy standard (John 16:7-11).

So are you saying here, that what the bible is missing in detail....
Jesus comes into the people and tell them?

As opposed to Islam, which equates godliness with every believer acting like a 7th century monotheistic Quraish Tribe member. The God of the Bible knew that culture would change along with technology and many other modernities, and did not give His followers closed-ended rules that struggle to be applied to the modern world but godly principles that can continually inform and shape culture and still do the purpose God's Law is suppose to do: convict us of sin, and show us our need of a Saviour.

Your same religion preaches that the changing of time (eg. behaviour of the people, acceptance of societies, etc) are all signs that the “messiah” is coming or the “end is near”.
Now you are basically saying that Islamic Teachings are “prehistoric” and your “modified” teachings have “21st century” rules that are basically there so that it wouldn’t be such a ‘struggle’ for people to follow?

WRT to your caricature of a Christian worship service, it is first of all, anecdotal. I and many others attend churches that have ordered liturgies that in no way reflect the picture you are painting. You claim that ppl bring up topic in this threat that has been dealt with before, and I have spoken out against some of what you mentioned happening in the church because the Bible says concerning the worship service "let all things be done decently and in order" 1 Corinthians 14:40.............

Again, up for speculation... How does: “Decently and In Order”, provide a clear and standardized procedure to follow, for people around the world?
That is why in so many churches... different procedures / rituals are followed. While a muslim can walk in a mosque in Asia and pray then walk in a mosque in Trinidad and pray without being confused or in doubt...


Your use of the word “anecdotal” is just you denying the facts of what is really happening now in churches...
Well if that’s your defence......... I rest my case!

All the readers of this thread know exactly what I was talking about in my previous post, but which Christian will admit? I did’t really expect you to admit...

Conversely, I too can easily watch Islamic television and see a Saudi imam instructing husbands how to beat their wives, an Egyptian Islamic leader tell others it is ok to lie to non-believers about Islam so that they could convert; and when they find out the truth threaten to kill them if they leave Islam or I can turn on the news and see thousands of attacks carried out in the name of Islam including one where an Islamic man butchered an off duty solider in the streets of London, stand around to justify what he did by the teachings of the Quran and then condemn other Islamists who are not doing likewise. (A couple days later an Islamist in France stabbed a soldier in the neck with the same justification.)

Which channel you saw that on? Why don’t you quote, just like you quote from your book!
Don’t make claims that cannot be confirmed!
It is not surprising though that you are creating slander or backing up the slander created by your peers.

And don’t even bring that Terrorist thing here with those mad people... Because if I were to use history and pull out the mad people, killers, torturers, murderers, etc from Christianity, a totally different picture of Christianity would be painted..

Have you noticed that so far I haven’t gone to that aspect of it; to “call out” well known massacres and killings done by Christianity?

Actually I think the atheists did a good job of that earlier in this same thread!

So let’s not go down that road...


So far you have just confirmed to me that no specific guidelines have been provided by your book.
The missing specifics; you patch up by saying Jesus comes into the people to guide them specifically...

Like I said........... I rest my case!

[New_SPECIES]

New_SPECIES, thanks for demonstrating your advanced ignorance but its not what we were asking for, all we wanted was genuine answers to the questions posed

This was the exact childish response I was expecting from you...

"I not stupid........You stupid.......etc"


I really done with responding to you...

There are other people out there, who really need guidance and are not cemented to ignorance and their own one sided thoughts.

[New_SPECIES]

Unfortunately, I have some projects at my house that requires more urgent attention than this thread...

And I can't waste anymore of my life trying to talk to ONLY TWO people playing Tag Team, when they are bent on "their way or the Highway!"

I'll just leave you with this Final Post, using scriptures from your book; the one that you have been pulling certain things out from...

It is concerning all the reasons so far why you said Jesus is God but your book says Different!

See for yourself what I was saying about your contrdictions!

_______________________________________________________________________________


Your reasons of why "Jesus is God":

1. Jesus Is God Because He Claimed To Be The Son Of God

2. Jesus Is God Because He Is God's Only Begotten Son

3. Jesus Is God Because He Was Born Without A Human Father

4. Jesus Is God Because He Called God The Father

5. Jesus Is God Because He Is Called Messiah

6. Jesus is GOD Because He Received Worship

7. Jesus is GOD Because He is called Lord and God

8. Jesus is GOD Because He Pre-Existed

9. Jesus is GOD Because He claimed Before Abraham Was I am

10. Jesus is GOD Because He had the Power To Forgive Sins

11. Jesus is GOD Because He is the way, the truth and the life

12. Jesus is GOD Because He claims that I And The Father Are One

13. Jesus is GOD Because He Possessed Knowledge of All Things

14. Jesus is GOD Because He Performed Miracles

15. Jesus never claimed to be GOD


"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know..." Acts 2:22

For the Christian, the only documents accepted as reporting the words of Jesus are the accounts given in the Bible.

However, there are no sayings of Jesus where he claimed "I am God" or "Worship me".

All quotations used to prove that Jesus is divine are implicit, that is, they require interpretation.

We are told what Jesus said and then told what he meant.


The evidence that is presented by the Christian is either inadequate, inconclusive, ambiguous; or unacceptable.


1. Jesus Is God Because He Claimed To Be The Son Of God

In the language of the Hebrew Bible, righteous persons who follow the Will and Plan of God are known as Sons Of God.

"Adam, which was the Son Of God." Luke 3:38

"The Sons Of God saw the daughters of men...
And the Sons Of God came in unto the daughters of men..." Genesis 6: 2,4.

"Israel is My Son, even my first born." Exodus 4:22

"...for I (God) am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9

"The Lord hath said unto me (David), Thou art My Son this day have I Begotten thee." Psalms 2:7.

Also Mat 5:9; Romans 8:14 etc.

Son Of God is a nothing but a metaphorical description commonly used among the Jews.


2. Jesus Is God Because He Is God's Only Begotten Son

The most widely translated sentence on earth is said to be Jesus' statement of John 3:16,

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son..."

Christians wish to say that the word Only Begotten (Monogenis) gives Jesus a special status among all the Sons of God.

However, not all Bibles translate the passage with this key word because some translators have seen the difficulty this causes.

The same word translated as Only Begotten is found at Hebrews 11:17.

In this verse the word refers to Isaac. The Bible itself shows that Isaac's older brother Ishmael outlived his father (Genesis 25:9).
Therefore, at no time was Isaac, strictly speaking, the only begotten of Abraham.

In the case of Isaac the Church explains that "only-begotten" is not to be understood strictly but must be modified.

However, no such modification is allowed in the case of John 3:16.


3. Jesus Is God Because He Was Born Without A Human Father

Does the miraculous birth of Jesus make him a God?

If being born without a male parent entitles Jesus to being God, then Adam would have a greater right to such honor.

Adam was born without either a human father or mother.


4. Jesus Is God Because He Called God The Father

The use of the term Father is inconclusive evidence that God was literally Father to Jesus.

All Christians use the term when addressing God. The Jews themselves used the term (John 8:41).

Jesus told them that the devil was their Father (John 8:44).

Of course, he was not speaking literally.


5. Jesus Is God Because He Is Called Messiah

Muslims agree that Jesus was the Messiah.

However, Christians have come to believe that there is a connotation of divinity in the word.

Messiah is a Hebrew word meaning Anointed, its Grecian form is Christ.

Although modern Bibles hide the fact, many individuals are called Messiah.
Cyrus the Persian is called Messiah (anointed) in Isaiah 45:1.

Where Bible verses refer to Jesus, translators prefer use the word Messiah or Christ.

For all other occurrences, they render only the meaning of the word as anointed.

In this way they hope to give the impression that there is only one Messiah. (for details see below)


6. Jesus is GOD Because He Received Worship

The fact that Jesus accepted worship is offered as strong proof of his divinity.

John 9:38: "Lord, I believe, and he worshipped him."

Matthew 28:17 "they saw him, they worshipped him".

The word translated as worshipped in both verses is the Greek word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o} which literally means:
"To kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand". (Strong's concordance).

Even Prophet Daniel was worshipped by Nebuchadnezzar:

"Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face and worshipped Daniel..." (Daniel 2:46, KJV)

If He was not to be worshipped, why didn't He tell this man to stop?

It appears that "worship" was a type of greeting or salutation offered by the king.

In all modern versions of the Bible, when Daniel was worshipped, the word worship has been removed.

However, in the case of Jesus, the word worship still remains. (e.g., compare NIV and KJV)

The same trick is applied to the word Messiah/Christ.

Messiah is a Hebrew word meaning Anointed, its Grecian form is Christ.

Although modern Bibles hide the fact, many individuals are called Messiah.

Cyrus ther Persian is called Messiah (anointed) in Isaiah 45:1.

Where Bible verses refer to Jesus, translators prefer use the word Messiah or Christ.

For all other occurrences, they render only the meaning of the word as anointed. In this way they hope to give the impression that there is only one Messiah.)


7. Jesus is GOD Because he is called Lord And God

An episode is recounted in the twentieth chapter of John and a certain Thomas is quoted as saying, My Lord and My God.

In interpreting this, Christians maintain that Thomas was addressing Jesus by both of these titles.
The Muslim would have no objection to the term Lord.

As the Bible explains, the word means Master and Sarah is said to have called her husband Abraham by this title (1 Peter 3:6).

The suggestion that Thomas addressed Jesus as literally being God is a different matter.

Jesus had already pointed out that the Hebrew scriptures themselves address men as gods (John 10:34; Psalms 82:6).

This would allow for Thomas' use of the term.

However, Paul gave new rules in 1 Corinthians chapter 8, saying that there are many lords and gods ...

yet for us there is but one God, the Father,... and one Lord, Jesus Christ...

Christians apply this verse to sort out the ambiguities of Thomas' expression.
But now we are left with an unorthodox doctrine, namely that Jesus is the Father.

This ancient heresy has been branded by the Church as Patripassianism, Moarchianism, or Sebellianism.

The impossibility of an orthodox interpretation of Thomas is now apparent.

The distinction between Father and Son is essential to the doctrine of Trinity.

The distinction is blurred again when John 14:9 is pressed into service.

Here Jesus' reply to a man named Philip is recorded as He who has seen me has seen the Father.

A strictly literal explication would mean the unacceptable doctrine that Jesus is the Father.

So interpreters say that Father is here equivalent to God.

However, we cannot possibly be obliged to understand that Jesus meant to say that seeing him was exactly the same as seeing God because he was God.

Our reason is found in the contrariety of John 5:37 You have neither heard His (God) voice at any time nor seen his form.


8. Jesus is GOD Because He Pre-Existed

At John 8:58 it is reported that Jesus said, Before Abraham was I am.

Even if Jesus meant to claim by these words that he was alive before Abraham was, is it sufficient ground to say that he was divine?

If Jesus lived in heaven then came to the earth it might mean something remarkable, but it would not be enough to establish him as God Christians do not imagine that the prophet Jeremiah had a prehuman existence and find a suitable way of interpreting the words of Jeremiah 1:5 which portrays such a situation, if taken literally.

However not such similar understanding is permitted by the Church in the case of John 8:58!


9. Jesus is GOD Because He claims Before Abraham was I am

In Exodus 3, it is reported that God told Moses I am what I am as most English Bibles translate the Hebrew text.

At John 8:58 Jesus says, before Abraham was I am as most English Bibles translate the Greek text.

But here is the key to another deception.

The original of the first text is in Hebrew, while the original of the second is in Greek.

All but a few of Jesus' words are recorded in Greek.

For two hundred years before the time of Jesus the Jews used a Greek translation of their Hebrew scriptures, the Septuagint.

This work translated the key phrase I am of Exodus as HO ON. However, the words of Jesus, I am, have been given in Greek as EGO EMI

If the gospel writer in John 8:58 wanted to tell his Greek-speaking audience that Jesus had imitated God he would have used the familiar words of the Septuagint.


10. Jesus is GOD Because He Had The Power To Forgive Sins

In the second chapter of Mark, Jesus tells a man, Your sins are forgiven (Mark 2:5-10).

The fact that Jesus forgave sins is perhaps the action of Jesus which is most commonly seen as being synonymous with divinity since it is argued that only God can forgive sins.

The customary interpretation takes the side of the Jews then present who ask, Who can forgive sins but God alone?

But the verse at John 12:49, among others, explains very well how a man could make such a statement.

In this verse Jesus denies any personal initiative. (see also John 8:40; 14:10)

This same authority to forgive sins is apparently granted to his disciples: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven...

(John 20:23), but it is never suggested that the disciples are thus divine!


11. Jesus is GOD Because He is The Way, The Truth and The Life

I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, but through me.(John 14:6)

Exactly what this verse is supposed to prove is left vague by the Christian.

Does it prove the divinity of Jesus?

Is it supposed to mean that God listens to no one except Jesus or those who call on Jesus?

The dictionary shows that the words "way", "truth", and "life" do not automatically carry connotations of divinity.

So the Christian insist that the structure of the sentence stresses the way, the truth, and the life, as though Jesus is unique for all time.

Bill Clinton may have been the American President but he is not the first and probably not the last!

So language usage alone does not do the job of proving Jesus' divinity.


12. Jesus is GOD Because He Claims That I And The Father Are One

At John 10:30 Jesus is quoted as saying I and the Father are one.
The Greek word translated One is HEN.
Certain scholars have insisted that the only possible understanding of this word is One in essence or nature.

One need not be a Greek scholar to refute this unjustified claim.

A counter example is sufficient.

The same word is used by Jesus in John 17:11, 21,22,23 as he includes his disciples in this ONEness, whatever the meaning.


13. Jesus is GOD Because He Possessed Knowledge of All Things

This is a false claim refuted by Jesus himself: No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but only the Father. Matthew 24:36.

This verse also denies the claim the God and Jesus are ONE is essence or nature.


14. Jesus is GOD Because He Performed Miracles

Jesus admitted that the miracles he performed were not by his own power:

• ...All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven. Mat 28:18

• I cast out devils BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD... Mat 12:28

• I can of mine OWN SELF do nothing... John 5:30

All the miracles performed by Jesus have parallels in the Old Testament. For example:

• Fed the Multitudes: II Kings 4:42-44

• Healed the lepers and blind: so did others I Kings 5:14; 6:17,20;

• Acts 3:7; 5:15-16)

• Brought the dead to life: So did others: I Kings 17:22; II Kings 13:21; Ezek 37:1-14)

• Rose from the dead: So did others Ezek 37:1-14


15. Jesus never claimed to be GOD

And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, 'worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?'"

He will say: "Glory to you. Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For you know in full what is hidden.
The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 5, Verse 116


They do blaspheme who say "God is the Christ the son of Mary." But Christ said "O Children of Israel! Worship God, (who is) my Lord and your Lord." Whosoever joins other gods with God - God will forbid him the Garden, and the fire will be his abode... They do blaspheme who say "God is one of three in a Trinity". For there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."
The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 5, Verses 72-73.



All the above quotes are from your book that you (a Christian) misinterpreted, then how can you tell me what to eat, how to pray, how to dress, etc... from those “pieces” of scripture that you quoted in your previous post without anyone misinterpreting it and straying from the right path?


Like I said before:

there are no sayings of Jesus where he claimed "I am God" or "Worship me".



End of Contribution...

[megadoc1]

typical ,runs in ched hot and sweaty, makes baseless claims ,conveniently becomes busy and runs off as to avoid the wall he ran into

this was posted over two hundred pages ago as a response to those who erroneously claimed that Christians have abide by no laws, its the same ridiculous claims made by the new species


new species I did tell you that most of you arguments were refuted pages ago

[Habit7]

So first he repeatedly claims that the Bible doesnt have instruction for life and godliness, but when I show him some of the instructions he claims they are open to interpretation, like the bad interpretation he did of Surah 4:157 which puts him at odds with most Islamic scholars.

How to beat your wife: http://youtu.be/wfPSN_92v2w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Tw7WhH_aQ
It is ok to lie about Islam (ft. Mahmoud Al-Masri, Sunni cleric): http://youtu.be/FKs7oi_-NUo
Woolwich Attack: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/vi ... AuMGHftw00


But well played New_SPECIES, create a red herring, cry out that it needs to be addressed, sloppily handle the substantive issue and when asked verify it, run away in a cloud of text. AdamB, Sacchetto, yourself, all the same modus operandi.


BTW great vid megadoc1

[megadoc1]

this is a perfect example of the flawed logic Muslims use , they think that as long as you are not a muslim you are not capable of understanding anything in Islam

Proven Erroneous?

By who? You people on this thread?

What makes you think that you have the knowledge or understanding of anything (in Islam) to prove something erroneous?

but right after that they forget their own train of thought and proceed in their attempt to teach what the christian faith teaches,give their own interpretation of the bible saying what they think it should be saying and in doing this they prove their ridiculous theory right! that is ( because you are not of the faith you are in no position to understand it) but its not really a true statement its just stupidity on their part..... see example in the garbage posted by new species above


if I were to ask new species What makes him think that he have the knowledge or understanding of anything (in Christianity) to prove something erroneous? his only response would be islam

anyways new species has failed in both his interpretation of the bible and the Qur'an and he did this just to avoid admitting that Allah deceived people...lol but what they say? its ok to lie about islam?

So first he repeatedly claims that the Bible doesnt have instruction for life and godliness, but when I show him some of the instructions he claims they are open to interpretation, like the bad interpretation he did of Surah 4:157 which puts him at odds with most Islamic scholars.

thats the reason I posted the video of the debate between the Muslim scholar and criag hoping he would see his error without me having to tell him..lol.... I think the term use for that is kookdom or simply being a crank

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank_%28person%29

"Crank" is a pejorative term used for a person who holds an unshakable belief that most of his or her contemporaries consider to be false.[1] A crank belief is so wildly at variance with those commonly held as to be ludicrous. Cranks characteristically dismiss all evidence or arguments which contradict their own unconventional beliefs, making rational debate a futile task, and rendering them impervious to facts, evidence, and rational inference.

[AdamB]

Habit, doc and other christians,

Quite possibly Allah has allowed you to be deceived but not by HIS direct action by your own choice. How then can you put the blame on HIM? (You starting to sound like MGMan.)

If you desire to worship a man...carry on in your ignorance. The worship and deeds that you think are directed to the Almighty GOD will NEVER reach HIM (you will not benefit from them).

A false sense of security...a most dangerous thing!!

[Habit7]

Well sadly AdamB according to 4:157-8 Allah of the Quran made it appear that Jesus was killed/crucified, thus corroborating the Old Testament prophesies (Zechariah 12:10, Zechariah 13:7, Isaiah 53:5,8,10,12) and the very words of Jesus to His disciples. Allah's action of extracting Jesus helped support the start of the world's largest and most prolific religion, Christianity.

As such, for me as a subsequent Christian by Allah's deception to the first believers in Christ, it is hard not to notice the glaring inconsistency with Allah deceiving these ppl while claiming to be the same God of truth that abhors deception as chronicled in the Torah and Psalms. When I am trying to seek clarification it seems like no Muslim in the thread wants to deal with the substantive issue but is offering up distractions from the main issue. This also can be seen as an attempt to deceive.

Is the truth too much to ask for?

[New_SPECIES]

typical ,runs in ched hot and sweaty, makes baseless claims ,conveniently becomes busy and runs off as to avoid the wall he ran into

So because I have other things to do with my house, my wife, my family you think that I am “conveniently busy”...?

And because the most interesting thing in your life is typing on a thread every day and every night, you vex and accusing me of “running off”...?

Just as I was telling you before.... when you move out from your mother’s house, you will understand what responsibility is...

Based on your previous posts on this thread it looks like you are Describing a MEGADOC, since a MEGADOC keeps on running into the same wall, that he convinced himself, is a Doorway...


Your brother Habit7, even posted this to describe what I’m saying about you:



Subtitle for Above:

MEGADOC: "I'm telling you!..... It's a Doorway!"



FURTHER....


First You Said:

this was posted over two hundred pages ago as a response to those who erroneously claimed that Christians have abide by no laws, its the same ridiculous claims made by the new species
new species I did tell you that most of you arguments were refuted pages ago

Then You Telling ME:

this is a perfect example of the flawed logic Muslims use , they think that as long as you are not a muslim you are not capable of understanding anything in Islam

but right after that they forget their own train of thought and proceed in their attempt to teach what the christian faith teaches, give their own interpretation of the bible saying what they think it should be saying and in doing this they prove their ridiculous theory right! that is ( because you are not of the faith you are in no position to understand it) but its not really a true statement its just stupidity on their part..... see example in the garbage posted by new species above

if I were to ask new species What makes him think that he have the knowledge or understanding of anything (in Christianity) to prove something erroneous? ...........

You said that me and my statements were proven erroneous by ‘Google Searchers’ like yourself, but then asking me How can I prove anything in “Christianity” erroneous?


Like I said: “POT CALLING KETTLE BLACK!”

You are continuously doing the same EXACT thing that you are accusing me of...

Let me just Break Up what you just said, and Let Us Analyse It:

I’ll reverse ALL Your Accusations of me, and see for yourself how it describes YOU!


EXAMPLE:

“this is a perfect example of the flawed logic Muslims use , they think that as long as you are not a muslim you are not capable of understanding anything in Islam”

- But you think that because I am not a “Christian” I am not capable of understanding anything in “Christianity” and you are not willing to listen, hear, understand another person’s interpretation of your book but continuously make false interpretations of the Quran (and Insist that your Quranic Interpretation is the fact)..... Only because you saw that slander on the Internet.

“but right after that they forget their own train of thought and proceed in their attempt to teach what the christian faith teaches, give their own interpretation of the bible saying what they think it should be saying and in doing this they prove their ridiculous theory right!”

- But YOU always proceed to teach what Islam faith teaches, with your own interpretation of the QURAN saying what you think it should be saying, and trying to prove your ridiculous theory right!
- Example: Your continuous Slander of Quran 4:157-8, interpreted how you wanted then spread the blaspheme!

“(because you are not of the faith, you are in no position to understand it) but it’s not really a true statement, it’s just stupidity on their part..... see example in the garbage posted by new species above”

- But YOU accuse me of the exact same thing.... because I’m not in your faith, you think I’m in no position to understand it.
- Although, I was a part of Christianity & Hinduism before Islam.
- But YOU are so Wise in all other faiths and religions even though the only thing you were a part of before “Christianity” was your mother’s womb...

anyways new species has failed in both his interpretation of the bible and the Qur'an and he did this just to avoid admitting that Allah deceived people...lol but what they say? its ok to lie about islam?

To me... All your prior explanations of your belief were just basically, your failed interpretation of your own book... (along with the parts of the Old Testament that “Christians” just decided to leave out)


Like I said Again..... Your interpretation.... Your Created Lies.... Your Own Deceit....

lol but what they say? its ok (for muslims) to lie about islam?

To me, it looks like you are being taught that in your Churches.... To Lie about Islam...

Because that is all I have seen on the Internet from "Christian" based sites...

And it's all I have seen that You and Habit7 have done so far.

So first he repeatedly claims that the Bible doesnt have instruction for life and godliness, but when I show him some of the instructions he claims they are open to interpretation.......

Which “instructions” did you show me?

You mean those generalized statements that can be easily misinterpreted to suit whatever a person wants?

There are Clear Cut instructions in Islam for every aspect of Life that you can think about.

This is to ensure there are no misinterpretations between what to do and what not to do.

That is why Islam is known as “A Complete Way of Life”.

Like I said (again), that is also the reason why:

“ISLAM is the FASTEST Growing Religion in the WORLD!”................ you keep forgetting that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank_%28person%29

"Crank" is a pejorative term used for a person who holds an unshakable belief that most of his or her contemporaries consider to be false.[1] A crank belief is so wildly at variance with those commonly held as to be ludicrous. Cranks characteristically dismiss all evidence or arguments which contradict their own unconventional beliefs, making rational debate a futile task, and rendering them impervious to facts, evidence, and rational inference.

ALSO...... swing that “CRANK” thing back to yourself and see how it fits both YOU and Habit7 so perfectly!

[AdamB]

Habit,
The first christians were Unitarian, they never worshipped Jesus or in the name of Jesus!! Trinity came (fabricated) after 200-300+ yrs when the religion was reinvented to include worship of Jesus and the angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit).

Did Allah put forward this deception which you swallow and follow?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Habit,
The first christians were Unitarian, they never worshipped Jesus or in the name of Jesus!! Trinity came (fabricated) after 200-300+ yrs when the religion was reinvented to include worship of Jesus and the angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit).

huh?!!! Since when Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

[RBphoto]

A "Shake"*(sp) from Nigeria (Islamic High priest or something) was visiting my inlaws yesterday.They said he was asking for money to build a school. I asked them before he arrived:

1) What is the curriculum, or will only Islam be taught
2) when he builds this school out in the wilderness, will it have utilities?
3) Are children being educated now? Are there teaching programs with teachers being trained to occupy the school, even in they are teaching under a samman tree?
4) Will there be equal treatment of all denominations, religions and sexes?

I was asked not to insult the Shake. Just goes to show how people are willing to keep themselves blind to the fact that by supporting the religious leaders in less developed parts of the world the are actually helping perpetuate the worst parts of that culture that are not acceptable in our civilized part of the world.

Same goes to many of these Bramhin Hindu religious leaders who visit Trinidad... They perpetuate the caste system back in India... but fools will give them money for blessings. I do not want to be blessed by any third world crook thank you very much.... Learnt my lesson from HCU and Clico.

[Habit7]

Habit,
The first christians were Unitarian, they never worshipped Jesus or in the name of Jesus!! Trinity came (fabricated) after 200-300+ yrs when the religion was reinvented to include worship of Jesus and the angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit).

Did Allah put forward this deception which you swallow and follow?

That allegation was quashed a couple pages back with documented quotes from the early church leaders affirming the trinitarian doctrine presented in the Bible. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=15720#p7157175 The historical evidence for that claim is mute and by you repeating it, doesnt add any more truth to it.



New_SPECIES despite your lengthy posts with your limited time, you seem incapable of fully addressing the substantive issue of whether or not Allah of the Quran has deceived or is a deceiver. If he played a major role in feigning the dead/crucifixion of Jesus, why won't he feign the prophethood of Muhammad?

[Habit7]

Habit,
The first christians were Unitarian, they never worshipped Jesus or in the name of Jesus!! Trinity came (fabricated) after 200-300+ yrs when the religion was reinvented to include worship of Jesus and the angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit).

huh?!!! Since when Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

I wonder if despite Muhammad's illiteracy, if he had read this verse, would Islam even be existing today.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Maybe he would not have wanted to commit suicide when the angel appeared to him but he would have know that even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14).

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Habit,
The first christians were Unitarian, they never worshipped Jesus or in the name of Jesus!! Trinity came (fabricated) after 200-300+ yrs when the religion was reinvented to include worship of Jesus and the angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit).

huh?!!! Since when Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

I wonder if despite Muhammad's illiteracy, if he had read this verse, would Islam even be existing today.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Maybe he would not have wanted to commit suicide when the angel appeared to him but he would have know that even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14).

so how would he have known which is which?

It's like someone claiming to be a prophet telling you "Beware of false prophets who disguise themselves as true prophets".

[Habit7]

Well this is a little different. This is an angel pointing back to the book that claims that Immanuel, God among us, who said "it is finished," crucified and rose again, is now saying it is not really finished, you are the best of all men and everything I am telling you can be backed up by the Torah, Psalms and the Gospels.

Maybe if he had read John where he says "beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1) he would have realised what he was being told is inconsistent with source it claims to come from.