The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

^^^shhh Duane doesn't like it when you use the word "worldview"

[Habit7]

New_SPECIES I appreciate that unlike other Islamists in this discussion you haven't resorted to shouting and being bombastic to make your point.

Because of your initial erroneous claim of someone taking a picture/drawing/sketch of Jesus allow me correct some other errors I believe some of your leaders may have told you.

All of the revelations of god came through about four books and they all were almost hundreds of years apart, so what’s your point of saying “700 years after”?

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark Luke and John were not "hundreds of years apart." Jesus' death and resurrection was in the 30s A.D. Mark the earliest Gospel was in 50s A.D. and John the latest was as late as the 90s A.D. Muhammad's account 700 years later is historically irrelevant because it lacks historical primary and secondary sources. It is as relevant as you or I gave a detailed contradictory account of Columbus’ third voyage.

With respect to you mischaracterisations of the morals Christians, it is as irrelevant to the discussion as the violence and terrorism perpetrated by Muslims. Likewise the variances of Christian denominations are proportional to the variances in Islamic sects. Let us discuss what the Bible teaches vs. the Quran or vice versa to get the purest understanding of the religion, then we will see if those who apply it are acting consistently with its doctrines.


Consider how I corrected your brother AdamB when he attempted to interpret Exodus 20:4. I could have referred to the original language (Hebrew) to understand what the writer was saying to his immediate audience, but because the meaning was clear enough in the English I deferred this. I show him the statement clarifies itself within the immediate context, I showed him corresponding verses that mirrored its teaching and I should him an application in the narrative which contradicted his interpretation. That is part of what we call in Christian theology, hermeneutics, it teaches us how to interpret the Bible as seen in how others within the Bible interpreted prior Scriptures.

That being clear, please show me not with questions or statements of how much I am misunderstanding, how I am wrong when I say:

1] The crucifixion of Christ, which to His disciples would confirm what Jesus prophesied will happen to Him, confirms the Old Testament prophecies before crucifixion as punishment was even invented (Psalms 22), which essentially is the centrepiece of the "message of the cross" the Apostles preached and lay down their lives for in martyrdom, was all an act of deception wrought by the active hand of Allah of the Quran to deceive the first believers.
2] Is Allah of the Quran the best of deceivers? If not can his plots/schemes/plans result in someone turning to evil.
3] The Old Testament gives on an understanding of God but continually points to a Messiah to come and final judgement. 2000 years ago the Messiah came, fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah and promised to fulfil the prophecies of final Judge when He returns. His disciples and their companions wrote His teachings as they heard it first-hand and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit which He sent after His ascension. This closed the canon on Biblical doctrine in anticipation for the second coming of Jesus as Judge.
That being said, Christianity has had to defend itself from the Gnostic gospels (2nd Century) Islamic scripture (7th Century) and as recent as Mormon scripture (19th Century). What gives Islam credence over Mormonism as being God's final revelation? God never promised further revelation in any prophecy after the coming of the Messiah and unlike the OT and NT which has numerous writers with a consistent message, both Muhammad and Joseph Smith received private revelations, contradicting prior revelation and exalting themselves to central figures in this new revelation. If that were to happen today, won't we call that a cult?
4]Back to the "intercession thing," what more confirmation would an omniscient Allah need from Muhammad, who himself needs forgiveness, who should be no less timid as the other individual facing the one true Almighty God and who "Muslims" who lived before Muhammad was born would ask "who is this guy?"?
We Christians are guilty of worshipping the man Christ Jesus because He said He was God. He proved it by dying as a man as a substitute for the sins of those who would believe in Him and He proved it as God the Son He alone is able receive the wrath of God the Father that sinners deserve, die and rise back up again. We are worshippers of Christ. So since you and AdamB think that all Christians violate 2nd commandment because we make images of Jesus who we believe is both God and man, why is it wrong to make an image of Muhammad? If he was a mere man why can’t we man a rendition of him? And while I have stayed away from using pejoratives to describe Muhammad but only spoke about the historical Muhammad, is it wrong for me or others to criticise him? Is it blasphemous?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ because only people who see things different from reality need to claim they have a "worldview".

It's like grouping up with people who think the sky is green.

[AdamB]

Adamb yuh know anybody working bmobile? (wanna get the samsung note)
GOD sent many prophets with books HE did wrote

help a man out nah.
To the Jews HE did send manna
and i will convert.
There is still time for you to revert

Just bear witness that:

there is no true GOD worthy of worship except Allah
and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah!

[Kasey]

I asked before eh, but i eh get no answer. I have not seen activity from Dspike since 3rd January 2013.

Is he ok? Anyone can shed some light?

[bluefete]

I asked before eh, but i eh get no answer. I have not seen activity from Dspike since 3rd January 2013.

Is he ok? Anyone can shed some light?

I second this. I really miss his contributions and I pray that he is okay.

[bluefete]

'Allah will punish you all!': Terror at mosque as worshipers and policeman slashed with machete by 'Taser-proof' madman after row over whether they were praying properly

By Paul Bentley and John Stevens

PUBLISHED: 08:37 GMT, 16 June 2013 | UPDATED: 00:29 GMT, 17 June 2013

A Somali Muslim allegedly stabbed a policeman and three mosque worshippers after screaming: ‘Allah is going to punish you all.’

The 32-year-old is said to have tried to kill the worshippers during an argument over whether they were praying correctly.

It is thought the man, who was not a regular at the mosque in Birmingham, became upset because the prayers were not being performed in the manner of his denomination.


Many people living locally stood out on the street to watch what was happening as police maintained a presence in the area

One witness, who asked not to be named, said: ‘I heard shouting behind me as I was praying. I turned around and saw two men grappling with each other.

‘Suddenly a man pulled out a knife and stabbed the other man in the leg, near the groin.

'Someone tried to intervene but the man just went for him and thrust a knife into his abdomen. It was absolutely terrifying.’


The suspect, a 32-year-old Somalian man, was taken to a secure mental health facility today

Minutes later two police officers, one male and one female, arrived at the Madrasah Qasim-ul-Uloom mosque in Ward End and the man allegedly ran at them with a large combat knife.

Despite the male officer shooting him with a Taser, the man is said to have stabbed him in his chest and stomach.

‘The police tried to Taser the man but he didn’t fall down,’ the witness continued. ‘Instead he just lunged at the officer after pulling out his knife again and stabbed him. There was blood everywhere.’

Despite his serious injuries the 31-year-old officer ‘heroically’ overcame the man.

The officer was with his family in hospital yesterday preparing for surgery. Two of the other men were being treated for multiple stab wounds following the attack just after 11pm on Saturday.

An off-duty surgeon who happened to be at prayers fought to keep them alive before paramedics arrived.

Another man, Dr Arshad Mahmood, who had his hand stabbed while trying to disarm the attacker, said: ‘Everyone was frightened. It was so sudden.

‘A man started stabbing one of the guys who was just sitting right next to him.

'We went to save him. He had multiple injuries, three or four wounds.

'A few of us went to stop him. One of the guys was strong enough to stop him. I held his hand. One also had an injury on his thigh.’

Another witness said: ‘He shouted “Allah is going to punish you all”. He stabbed two people then one guy restrained him and someone called the police.’

The suspect was being held yesterday in a mental health facility on suspicion of attempted murder.

The attack comes less than a month after soldier Lee Rigby was murdered in Woolwich, south London, allegedly by knifemen boasting they were avenging the death of Muslims by the military.

The male officer, who has not yet been named, was due to receive a bravery award this week for helping to save the life of a young child in a separate incident last year.

Chief Superintendent Alex Murray, of West Midlands Police, praised the policeman, saying: ‘There was some real brave action going on inside that mosque.’

He added: ‘There’s no connection with any other incidents that we can see at the moment – for example, Woolwich or other incidents around the country.

'There’s no information at this stage to suggest it was a hate crime.’

West Midlands Police would be ‘looking into details’ about why the Taser had no effect on the suspect.

Liam Byrne, MP for Birmingham Hodge Hill, said: ‘This was not a hate crime, this was a tragic, sad, and isolated incident.’

Mohammed Shafiq, of national Muslim organisation the Ramadhan Foundation, said: ‘We must be clear there should be no place for this sort of violence in our country.’



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z2WQiv6JOu
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[RBphoto]

^^^LOL^^^ Now even Muslims are infidels?

[AdamB]

^^^LOL^^^ Now even Muslims are infidels?

Well, even you have been in a mosque supposedly "praying" and may do so again in a month or so. If you did something like that, because you're mentally unstable or otherwise, then is someone making a valid comment like the one above about muslims?

[RBphoto]

Yes, I am an infidel. I have decided not to do the mosque thing again. Thanks for keeping me in mind.

[AdamB]

Consider how I corrected your brother AdamB when he attempted to interpret Exodus 20:4. I could have referred to the original language (Hebrew) to understand what the writer was saying to his immediate audience, but because the meaning was clear enough in the English I deferred this. I show him the statement clarifies itself within the immediate context, I showed him corresponding verses that mirrored its teaching and I should him an application in the narrative which contradicted his interpretation. That is part of what we call in Christian theology, hermeneutics, it teaches us how to interpret the Bible as seen in how others within the Bible interpreted prior Scriptures.

Pal,
I pray that one day you may awaken from your bubble.

Exodus 20:4 says, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

This was the command from GOD. If HE had stopped at that then, making ALL images / idols would be prohibited for worship and not for worship. It still stands for itself. But knowing that man would be disobedient to HIM, THE ALMIGHTY continued:

Exodus 20:5 says, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."

HE also reinforces the reason why HE would punish them because they HATE HIM. So those make and use idols and images in or out of worship really HATE GOD (according to the statement of GOD in the Bible).

Is that what you support?

[Habit7]

No AdamB this is what I said:

Exodus 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

this all corresponds with Leviticus 26:1, Deuteronomy 5:8 and Deuteronomy 27:15 which all state that it is wrong to worship idols (objects to receive worship) as opposed to icons (objects that don't receive worship). This further substantiated by the fact that later on in Exodus God gives the Jews instructions on the design of the Ark of the Covenant which includes fashioning two angels ("likeness of what is in heaven above").

Exodus 20:4-6 speaks against making idols (objects of worship). God the Father is spirit, so there is no image that can represent him. God the Son entered into His creation as man there are those who try to represent this human form in art, sculpture, books, movies, etc. These representations only become sinful idols when worship is attributed to them.
Furthermore, Christianity understands idols not just to be obvious idols made of wood and stone, but idols could be made in one's mind by conceiving an idea of God that is not true.

[AdamB]

No AdamB this is what I said:

Exodus 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

this all corresponds with Leviticus 26:1, Deuteronomy 5:8 and Deuteronomy 27:15 which all state that it is wrong to worship idols (objects to receive worship) as opposed to icons (objects that don't receive worship). This further substantiated by the fact that later on in Exodus God gives the Jews instructions on the design of the Ark of the Covenant which includes fashioning two angels ("likeness of what is in heaven above").

Exodus 20:4-6 speaks against making idols (objects of worship). God the Father is spirit, so there is no image that can represent him. God the Son entered into His creation as man there are those who try to represent this human form in art, sculpture, books, movies, etc. These representations only become sinful idols when worship is attributed to them.
Furthermore, Christianity understands idols not just to be obvious idols made of wood and stone, but idols could be made in one's mind by conceiving an idea of God that is not true.

Like the TRINITY for example??

[AdamB]

idols could be made in one's mind by conceiving an idea of God that is not true.

Like the TRINITY for example??

Sorry, like THE HOLY TRINITY for example??

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

idols could be made in one's mind by conceiving an idea of God that is not true.

and how do we prove which idea of God is true?

[AdamB]

No AdamB this is what I said:

Exodus 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Like the TRINITY for example??

See how GOD links LOVING HIM with KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS!

Too bad Christians don't keep HIS commandments because according to Habit7, christians have no Federal Laws to follow.

As a consequence of this, christians don't LOVE GOD but by mixing idol worship with their religion, they actually HATE HIM.

So says, GOD of the Old Testament...but Christians don't follow the Old Testament, that was for the Jews and those before them. Christians follow a man who claimed Jesus appeared to him in questionable reports that cannot be substantiated!

Well done, keep it up, keep hoping and placing your hereafter on "Salvation on a Silver Platter" as it were!!!

[AdamB]

idols could be made in one's mind by conceiving an idea of God that is not true.

and how do we prove which idea of God is true?

GOD states in the Quran "And there is none like unto HIM."

Anything you can carve, any idea you can conjure in your mind .... IS NOT GOD!!!

[New_SPECIES]

because like other persons were saying on Page 70:

“we prefer to no argue on this topic since everybody has their own belief and will continue with it regardless of what other people’s opinion are”

you missed my point ! I simply ask you to read from there

YOU are the one who missed MY point.... firstly I said, if everyone reads from page 1, no one will ask any more questions, (due to the fact that ignorance and lack of knowledge is Blatant)

Also, I was Just quoting someone who realized that this discussion was a waste of time since no one is willing to think out of their box and listen beyond ignorance...


Example of Ignorance, Blindness, and Refusal to listen:

I cleared up the point before on your Misguidance and your Wrongful Arabic translation for you to achieve the statement: “Allah the Best of Deceivers”


SEE HERE:

Your claim that, you translated from the Quran 3:54 to say “Allah the Best of Deceivers”.

You got this translation from using either, your Arabic Language Certificates or your use of Blaspheming Websites from the Internet that doesn’t have any authenticity.

I clearly showed previously (on many occasions) that is invalid, since you got it from a blaspheming site that denounces Islam.

SEE BELOW:

“But this deception is not strange to Allah for the Quran calls Allah a makr and the best of makr: But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54”

You took it word for word from a blaspheming Christian Site (http://www.answering-islam.org) that seeks to denounce Islam.
The author: Sam Shamoun has well been known to insult and denounce islam in numerous ways.

And you said that you got the meaning of ‘makr’ from (http://www.studyquran.co.uk).

A site that has the following DISCLAMIER:

“Disclaimer: All information contained within this site is correct to the best of our (the contributors) knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact.
One should always verify information and seek knowledge when possible.”

This site can’t even pronounce the Arabic Alphabet properly but you think that their translations are exact and true.

Then you stand hard and fast to what u read regardless of its authenticity or its source!
................................

In order to get the TRUE meaning behind any statement, they sentences before and after must be read to know and understand the concept under which the statement was made.

Didn’t you learn that in Primary School Comprehension Techniques?

The before and after of the verse you quoted is as follows (from the Quran):


Quran 3:45

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;


Quran 3:46

"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."


Quran 3:47

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!


Quran 3:48

"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,


Quran 3:49

"And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;


Quran 3:50

"(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me."


Quran 3:51

"It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."


Quran 3:52

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.


Quran 3:53

"Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle; then write us down among those who bear witness."


Quran 3:54

And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.


Quran 3:55

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

I then showed the actual meaning of the statement and before and after verses to give a clear description of the translation in case it was mistranslated. (as re-quoted above)

But you refused to Read the entire previous Post..

then you return to the forum with the same accusation...

Then what’s the point of me posting anything on the thread, when is like you people just copy and pasting accusations as a “New Reply” using the same wrong Translations of Arabic.

You then use all your wrong translations and misguidance of different verses as the base of all your other further accusations...

See your Continuing Ignorant Accusation as an example:

how can you blame them? the greatest deceiver(allah )decieved them

Nay, they deceive their own selves.

the quran clearly states that alah is the greatest of deceivers it also demonstrates this by saying that allah , only made it to look like they crucified Jesus...so who is to blame for what the disciples believed, preached and died for afterwards? why allah chose to betray those who carefully listened to his prophet Jesus?

yet Allah is the same GOD of the bible! Ask Jesus...or any Arabic speakin....

..................
the bible say God is not a liar the Qur'an says allah is the greatest deceiver how that could e the same person?

All your accusations are based on one Mistranslated, Misguided verse taken from Blaspheming Sites against Muslims.


Therefore.......

I don’t care about getting a response from Habit7

typical muslim

Since you don’t care about responses from New_SPECIES (someone making a point, to defend a religion),

Then what does that make you?

A Typical Christian?

[megadoc1]

I asked before eh, but i eh get no answer. I have not seen activity from Dspike since 3rd January 2013.

Is he ok? Anyone can shed some light?

I second this. I really miss his contributions and I pray that he is okay.

he is alright! I saw him a few days ago, I guess his old pc probably gave up the ghost

[megadoc1]

New_SPECIES , why should anyone take you seriously? you come here claiming that the English translated quran sources are mistranslated but you are yet to provide a credible source for us to reference? shame on you! *pelts shoes @ new species*


which one is the correct translation? http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/157/default.htm

and for their saying: We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God. And they killed him not, nor they crucified him. Rather, a likeness to him of another was shown to them. And, truly, those who were at variance in it are in uncertainty about it. There is no knowledge with them about it but they are pursuing an opinion. And they for certain killed him not.

did allah trick backfired?

[megadoc1]

I don’t care about getting a response from Habit7

typical muslim

Since you don’t care about responses from New_SPECIES (someone making a point, to defend a religion),

Then what does that make you?

A Typical Christian?

you have to be a madman! where did you get In that response of mine that I don't care about responses from you? breds yuh start to become dishonest already?
it is you who made that statement not me ...

[New_SPECIES]

My point was that you are responding with stuff that was refuted and corrected over and over, hundreds of pages ago
Your ill informed arguments have been proven erroneous a very long time now!

Proven Erroneous?

By who? You people on this thread?

What makes you think that you have the knowledge or understanding of anything (in Islam) to prove something erroneous?

Especially since your Main source of knowledge is the First page that comes up when you Google something!

I guess I shouldn’t expect anything better, since it’s people of your same religion who post up these sites, with Endless Misguided Information, blatantly showing their true intention!

.......................
then the next christian you meet you will ask them the same question again..and so on and so on....

Unlike you... I listen... Interpret... See the Logic... Get the facts (from authentic sources!)...


Like I said a long time ago on this same thread:

I am a person who never grew up in a home where everyone is already following a religion and I was just compelled to continue it.

I grew up “don’t care damn”, but I always had a feeling in my heart that a superior power existed and decided to search for the information on a god and religion to decide for myself what is true and what isn’t.

Due to this, I had to have a very good understanding of the major religions in present existence.

When one could convince me otherwise.... I’ll Stop!

[New_SPECIES]

I don’t care about getting a response from Habit7

typical muslim

Since you don’t care about responses from New_SPECIES (someone making a point, to defend a religion),

Then what does that make you?

A Typical Christian?

you have to be a madman! where did you get In that response of mine that I don't care about responses from you? breds yuh start to become dishonest already?
it is you who made that statement not me ...

I already explained why I made certain statements!

Like I have to read and spell everything for your brain to register it!

..........................................

I am accusing you of disregarding responses since you continuously return with the same baseless accusations even though, I cleared it and showed that your source of information was from a blaspheming site.

Please TRY to read the post I made about this...

[Habit7]

I didnt want to mention this but since you brought it up

And you said that you got the meaning of ‘makr’ from (http://www.studyquran.co.uk).

A site that has the following DISCLAMIER:

“Disclaimer: All information contained within this site is correct to the best of our (the contributors) knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact.
One should always verify information and seek knowledge when possible.”

As far as I can see, this disclaimer was in special reference to their |Project Root List|, otherwise they seem to be very confident about their lexicon which says makr can mean deceive.


I think you are avoiding the fact that Allah of the Quran has claimed to deceive the Christians during the crucifixion, right now all we are just disputing over is whether or not he is the best of deceivers.

Too bad Christians don't keep HIS commandments because according to Habit7, christians have no Federal Laws to follow

This what I said:

Christians interpret the OT through the NT, so if the NT doesn't reiterate a OT principle in the NT we don't carry it over. That being generally said, it is important to note that in the Pentateuch there are moral laws (eg 10 commandments), ceremonial laws (for sacrificial system) and the federal law (to govern the Israelites). With the exception of the Sabbath, all the moral law is repeated in the NT and we follow it. The ceremonial law was done away with as Christ is the once and for all sacrifice and the federal law doesn't apply to any of us now because we don't live in pre-first century theocratic Israel. However Christians study these abrogated laws to understand the character of God but we don't practise them.

I dont need to misrepresent someone else's position and be dishonest to score points. AdamB you really not showing yourself well.


The issue is Christianity vs. any other religion is that laws/commandments dont justify anyone. In the story of the Rich Young Ruler (Mark 10:17-27) a man came to Jesus and asked how to inherit eternal life. Christ first corrected his understanding of who is good, that only God is good. He then gave him the moral law, he proudly proclaimed that he keep the law, but Jesus knowing his money was his idol, told him to give it away to the poor, and the man went away sad because he knew he wasnt willing to give it away.

Boasting about how much law you have kept, how much law you have and how good you are might impress men, but before a holy God your righteous deeds are like a nasty cloth that covers an open body cavity (Isaiah 64:6). Law only serves to condemn us further so that we know we need God's forgiveness. Since God is just, He is not going to weight our bad deed against our good deeds, He will punish our bad deeds, and whatever we call good deed would be known as tarnished because it came from a source that does bad deeds. Only Christ lived that righteous life God requires. None of us are good, only Christ, he alone keep the Law, we all have broken it. Unless one cries to God in repentance and faith in the work of Christ, where God exchanges their account for Christ's and Christ account for theirs, they will suffer the punishment of a just and holy God. Christians are justified by Christ's righteousness not by keeping the Law, we keep the Law in thankfulness, gratitude and love of the God who first loved us and died in our place.

[AdamB]

New Species,

Be warned, Megadoc trips very easily....maybe it's the 'spirit' in him that is deceiving him, yet he does not know it.

It's not an evil, wicked deceiving but rather a praise-worthy planning like a strategy to be implemented against an enemy in war.

If you look you will not find a NAME for Allah with this attribute because it can have a negative non praise-worthy connotation to it. So Allah is described as "the best of planners", not "the best of deceivers". HE is described with the praise-worthy ATTRIBUTE NOT a NAME that could take on an evil, non praise-worthy attribute.

It has been established that Christians really HATE GOD, so what do you expect from them? They insult and say evil things about Allah, when the arabic "Allah" is there in the Arabic Bible. For example, let's look at Genesis Chapter 1 in arabic, the word اللهُ is GOD in arabic:

1 فِي الْبَدْءِ خَلَقَ اللهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالارْضَ. 2 وَكَانَتِ الارْضُ خَرِبَةً وَخَالِيَةً وَعَلَى وَجْهِ الْغَمْرِ ظُلْمَةٌ وَرُوحُ اللهِ يَرِفُّ عَلَى وَجْهِ الْمِيَاهِ. 3 وَقَالَ اللهُ: «لِيَكُنْ نُورٌ» فَكَانَ نُورٌ. 4 وَرَاى اللهُ النُّورَ انَّهُ حَسَنٌ. وَفَصَلَ اللهُ بَيْنَ النُّورِ وَالظُّلْمَةِ. 5 وَدَعَا اللهُ النُّورَ نَهَارا وَالظُّلْمَةُ دَعَاهَا لَيْلا. وَكَانَ مَسَاءٌ وَكَانَ صَبَاحٌ يَوْما وَاحِدا. 6 وَقَالَ اللهُ: «لِيَكُنْ جَلَدٌ فِي وَسَطِ الْمِيَاهِ. وَلْيَكُنْ فَاصِلا بَيْنَ مِيَاهٍ وَمِيَاهٍ». 7 فَعَمِلَ اللهُ الْجَلَدَ وَفَصَلَ بَيْنَ الْمِيَاهِ الَّتِي تَحْتَ الْجَلَدِ وَالْمِيَاهِ الَّتِي فَوْقَ الْجَلَدِ. وَكَانَ كَذَلِكَ. 8 وَدَعَا اللهُ الْجَلَدَ سَمَاءً. وَكَانَ مَسَاءٌ وَكَانَ صَبَاحٌ يَوْما ثَانِيا. 9 وَقَالَ اللهُ: «لِتَجْتَمِعِ الْمِيَاهُ تَحْتَ السَّمَاءِ الَى مَكَانٍ وَاحِدٍ وَلْتَظْهَرِ الْيَابِسَةُ». وَكَانَ كَذَلِكَ. 10 وَدَعَا اللهُ الْيَابِسَةَ ارْضا وَمُجْتَمَعَ الْمِيَاهِ دَعَاهُ بِحَارا. وَرَاى اللهُ ذَلِكَ انَّهُ حَسَنٌ. 11 وَقَالَ اللهُ: «لِتُنْبِتِ الارْضُ عُشْبا وَبَقْلا يُبْزِرُ بِزْرا وَشَجَرا ذَا ثَمَرٍ يَعْمَلُ ثَمَرا كَجِنْسِهِ بِزْرُهُ فِيهِ عَلَى الارْضِ». وَكَانَ كَذَلِكَ. 12 فَاخْرَجَتِ الارْضُ عُشْبا وَبَقْلا يُبْزِرُ بِزْرا كَجِنْسِهِ وَشَجَرا يَعْمَلُ ثَمَرا بِزْرُهُ فِيهِ كَجِنْسِهِ. وَرَاى اللهُ ذَلِكَ انَّهُ حَسَنٌ. 13 وَكَانَ مَسَاءٌ وَكَانَ صَبَاحٌ يَوْما ثَالِثا. 14 وَقَالَ اللهُ: «لِتَكُنْ انْوَارٌ فِي جَلَدِ السَّمَاءِ لِتَفْصِلَ بَيْنَ النَّهَارِ وَاللَّيْلِ وَتَكُونَ لايَاتٍ وَاوْقَاتٍ وَايَّامٍ وَسِنِينٍ. 15 وَتَكُونَ انْوَارا فِي جَلَدِ السَّمَاءِ لِتُنِيرَ عَلَى الارْضِ». وَكَانَ كَذَلِكَ. 16 فَعَمِلَ اللهُ النُّورَيْنِ الْعَظِيمَيْنِ: النُّورَ الاكْبَرَ لِحُكْمِ النَّهَارِ وَالنُّورَ الاصْغَرَ لِحُكْمِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنُّجُومَ. 17 وَجَعَلَهَا اللهُ فِي جَلَدِ السَّمَاءِ لِتُنِيرَ عَلَى الارْضِ 18 وَلِتَحْكُمَ عَلَى النَّهَارِ وَاللَّيْلِ وَلِتَفْصِلَ بَيْنَ النُّورِ وَالظُّلْمَةِ. وَرَاى اللهُ ذَلِكَ انَّهُ حَسَنٌ. 19 وَكَانَ مَسَاءٌ وَكَانَ صَبَاحٌ يَوْما رَابِعا. 20 وَقَالَ اللهُ: «لِتَفِضِ الْمِيَاهُ زَحَّافَاتٍ ذَاتَ نَفْسٍ حَيَّةٍ وَلْيَطِرْ طَيْرٌ فَوْقَ الارْضِ عَلَى وَجْهِ جَلَدِ السَّمَاءِ». 21 فَخَلَقَ اللهُ التَّنَانِينَ الْعِظَامَ وَكُلَّ نَفْسٍ حَيَّةٍ تَدِبُّ الَّتِي فَاضَتْ بِهَا الْمِيَاهُ كَاجْنَاسِهَا وَكُلَّ طَائِرٍ ذِي جَنَاحٍ كَجِنْسِهِ. وَرَاى اللهُ ذَلِكَ انَّهُ حَسَنٌ. 22 وَبَارَكَهَا اللهُ قَائِلا: «اثْمِرِي وَاكْثُرِي وَامْلاي الْمِيَاهَ فِي الْبِحَارِ. وَلْيَكْثُرِ الطَّيْرُ عَلَى الارْضِ». 23 وَكَانَ مَسَاءٌ وَكَانَ صَبَاحٌ يَوْما خَامِسا. 24 وَقَالَ اللهُ: «لِتُخْرِجِ الارْضُ ذَوَاتِ انْفُسٍ حَيَّةٍ كَجِنْسِهَا: بَهَائِمَ وَدَبَّابَاتٍ وَوُحُوشَ ارْضٍ كَاجْنَاسِهَا». وَكَانَ كَذَلِكَ. 25 فَعَمِلَ اللهُ وُحُوشَ الارْضِ كَاجْنَاسِهَا وَالْبَهَائِمَ كَاجْنَاسِهَا وَجَمِيعَ دَبَّابَاتِ الارْضِ كَاجْنَاسِهَا. وَرَاى اللهُ ذَلِكَ انَّهُ حَسَنٌ. 26 وَقَالَ اللهُ: «نَعْمَلُ الانْسَانَ عَلَى صُورَتِنَا كَشَبَهِنَا فَيَتَسَلَّطُونَ عَلَى سَمَكِ الْبَحْرِ وَعَلَى طَيْرِ السَّمَاءِ وَعَلَى الْبَهَائِمِ وَعَلَى كُلِّ الارْضِ وَعَلَى جَمِيعِ الدَّبَّابَاتِ الَّتِي تَدِبُّ عَلَى الارْضِ». 27 فَخَلَقَ اللهُ الانْسَانَ عَلَى صُورَتِهِ. عَلَى صُورَةِ اللهِ خَلَقَهُ. ذَكَرا وَانْثَى خَلَقَهُمْ. 28 وَبَارَكَهُمُ اللهُ وَقَالَ لَهُمْ: «اثْمِرُوا وَاكْثُرُوا وَامْلاوا الارْضَ وَاخْضِعُوهَا وَتَسَلَّطُوا عَلَى سَمَكِ الْبَحْرِ وَعَلَى طَيْرِ السَّمَاءِ وَعَلَى كُلِّ حَيَوَانٍ يَدِبُّ عَلَى الارْضِ». 29 وَقَالَ اللهُ: «انِّي قَدْ اعْطَيْتُكُمْ كُلَّ بَقْلٍ يُبْزِرُ بِزْرا عَلَى وَجْهِ كُلِّ الارْضِ وَكُلَّ شَجَرٍ فِيهِ ثَمَرُ شَجَرٍ يُبْزِرُ بِزْرا لَكُمْ يَكُونُ طَعَاما. 30 وَلِكُلِّ حَيَوَانِ الارْضِ وَكُلِّ طَيْرِ السَّمَاءِ وَكُلِّ دَبَّابَةٍ عَلَى الارْضِ فِيهَا نَفْسٌ حَيَّةٌ اعْطَيْتُ كُلَّ عُشْبٍ اخْضَرَ طَعَاما». وَكَانَ كَذَلِكَ. 31 وَرَاى اللهُ كُلَّ مَا عَمِلَهُ فَاذَا هُوَ حَسَنٌ جِدّا. وَكَانَ مَسَاءٌ وَكَانَ صَبَاحٌ يَوْما سَادِسا.
تكوين 1

Would you not now say that The GOD of the Bible is ALLAH / اللهُ ?

[Habit7]

Did or did not Allah deceive the observers of the crucifixion?

[New_SPECIES]

New_SPECIES , why should anyone take you seriously? you come here claiming that the English translated quran sources are mistranslated but you are yet to provide a credible source for us to reference? shame on you!

I have the truth and the knowledge, but people like you who probably still living in their mother’s house are accustomed to having everything spoon fed to them.

When I was looking for authentic information I did full background checks, matched information with numerous sites, and other various methods, to ensure that I am not misguided.

Because I told you that your source is invalid you vex, but you didn’t do any verifications whatsoever...

If someone (a leader) decided to tell you something about your religion from your church, won’t to try to validate it somewhere else, or will you just run with it?

But you are running with anything else you hear about other religions and then coming to a forum to denounce them.

You are defaming the Islamic book and when I told you that you sources are false, you say I can’t be taken seriously.

Now you are asking me about validation and authenticity!

What do you really want me to do, give you a list of sites that you should and shouldn’t take information from?

All I will provide is one site that you can find the scripture that I quoted some Translations from, and that is:
http://www.muslimaccess.com

[New_SPECIES]

And you said that you got the meaning of ‘makr’ from (http://www.studyquran.co.uk).

A site that has the following DISCLAMIER:

“Disclaimer: All information contained within this site is correct to the best of our (the contributors) knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact.
One should always verify information and seek knowledge when possible.”

.............................

I think you are avoiding the fact that Allah of the Quran has claimed to deceive the Christians during the crucifixion, right now all we are just disputing over is whether or not he is the best of deceivers.

It looks like you pick and choose which battle you want to fight, them stick with your story no matter who says what...

You are here trying to blame the ignorance of your people, and the lack of their attempt to search and find the truth on God, by saying that God deceived them when they interpreted what they wanted and did like megadoc and just “Ran With It”.

If that’s what YOU believe then keep running!

I spoke enough about that already...

Why didn’t you comment on this:

So now tell me... if your book is the ultimate and final book with everything u need to know about the correct way of life, do’s and don’ts etc, then how is that so many things are missing. And how is looking as though Jesus left out some things.....

Such as:

(1) A defined way for believers to pray: (I’ll expand on just this one to show you what I’m saying)

In Christian Churches:
• You have some people jumping up and down
• You hear them sing songs that man wrote and told them to sing
• Some people just sit and hear some man talk and they feel blessed
• Some people get slapped in their heads and forced to knock out cold on the ground
• Some people put their hands in the sky and repeat anything the pastor say
• Some people go to track man/woman and still come out feeling blessed
• Some people Sing Soca and Rap and calling Jesus Name and they feeling blessed (eg. Jump Up and Wave for Jesus). Next thing they will say is, "take a wine for Jesus!"...
• People are allowed to dress decent and others basically whatever they wish to wear (eg. Tight clothes, mini-skirts, exposing clothing etc)
• Some churches have different payer times to others and try to make it convenient for people (as though the worship of god is for ‘when we have time’)................etc, etc, etc...



In Islamic Mosques:

• Since u clearly know nothing about the religion, then maybe if u ever see on tv the way muslims pray, u will notice that it is standardized throughout the world.
• Everyone following the same physical motion of prostration to god, no matter which country they are in.
• Everyone recites prayer that is standardized.
• Men and women are separate, to prevent temptation from the other sex.
• The believers are thought to maintain order and discipline even while praying hence the straight lines formed.
• A code of dress is maintained in all places of worship for both men and women.
• Before ever praying or entering a place of worship, certain routines of cleanliness must be performed (eg. Routine of washing hands, feet, face, neck, ears, mouth, etc).
• Times for major prayers are fixed (and are not for when u have time).

The Islam and Quran also teaches...
(2) How a person should speak; in public, to each other, to strangers, to their spouse, etc
(3) How a person should eat; how much, when, where, posture while eating, what to eat, etc
(4) How to Dress; to pray, to go out, to stay at home, etc
(5) How to generally carry about themselves; at home, with relatives, with strangers, etc
(6) How to treat others; your spouse, your friends, your relatives, your neighbours, etc

And many other guidelines such as: how to sleep, how to bath...etc. etc.

These are essential guidelines that make people say that Islam too ‘strict’.

What it does is, give answers to all questions that might be of an uncertainty to someone in a particular situation. It ensures that the believer is sure that he/she is doing the right thing. It also grants the believer with extra blessings for doing routine ‘everyday’ duties, in accordance with the scripture.

What specific guidelines have you been given by your book?

My point is that the Quran was meant to be a follow up of the Bible hence the missing ‘detailed’ guidelines as is mentioned in the Quran.

[Habit7]

I did:

With respect to you mischaracterisations of the morals Christians, it is as irrelevant to the discussion as the violence and terrorism perpetrated by Muslims. Likewise the variances of Christian denominations are proportional to the variances in Islamic sects. Let us discuss what the Bible teaches vs. the Quran or vice versa to get the purest understanding of the religion, then we will see if those who apply it are acting consistently with its doctrines.

You painting Christianity with an erroneous broad brush of ridiculousness would be equally wrong of me painting Islam as a militant religion and terrorism factory. Let us see Islam in its truest form in the Quran and let us see Christianity in its truest form in the Bible.

When I was looking for authentic information I did full background checks, matched information with numerous sites, and other various methods, to ensure that I am not misguided.

Could you please tell us the website that informed you that someone drew a sketch of Jesus and that the gospel accounts were "almost hundreds of years apart" so that we can all avoid them just like you are avoiding my first question of whether Allah of the Quran deceived the observers of the crucifixion?

[RBphoto]

A thermostat is needed for the correct and efficient running of an unmodified engine. Many people believe that it is OK to remove it even in the light that their car now overheats, sucks coolant (or water which some switch to). Reminds me of religious faith.