The Religion Discussion

[bluefete]

Why is it so difficult to believe that unicorns existed?

The Bible describes the existence of some very weird creatures that were actually seen by the scribes.


Revelation Chapter 4:

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

[bluefete]

They are after the Christians today. Tomorrow, they will come after the Muslims, Hindus, and others.

PRAYER IN SCHOOLS
Atheist Group Slams Valedictorian Who Recited Lord's Prayer Instead of Graduation Speech

Last weekend valedictorian Roy Costner IV was due to give a speech at his public high school graduation in South Carolina. He was greeted with wild applause when he tore up his pre-approved speech and instead invoked God and recited the Lord's prayer.

His impromptu prayer was a protest against the school district's decision to ban prayers from graduation ceremonies after complaints from atheist activists.


Roy Costner reciting the lord's prayer instead of a graduation speech


Those same activists are not very happy about Costner's actions. The Freedom of Religion Foundation has accused him of insensitivity:

"The valedictorian who so insensitively inflicted Christian prayer on a captive audience at a secular graduation ceremony is a product of a school district which itself has set an unconstitutional example by hosting school board prayer," said FFRF co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor in a press release. The group wants the district to change its training and oversight to ensure that Christian prayer is not made part of school-sponsored activities.

http://politix.topix.com/homepage/6479- ... ion-speech



Interview: Valedictorian Roy Costner IV on Ripping Up His Approved Speech, Reciting Lord's Prayer

By Ruth Malhotra , CP Contributor
June 7, 2013|2:41 pm

Liberty, S.C. – When 18-year-old Roy Costner IV of Liberty, S.C., first heard about the controversy over prayer at public school events in Pickens County several months ago, he was perplexed and felt compelled to get involved. But he never expected that it would be his valedictorian speech that would draw national attention to this small town battle. In fact, he didn't even expect to be valedictorian of his graduating class.

"I am a strong Christian, and when I heard about our local school board getting attacked by the ACLU and Freedom From Religion Foundation, I realized it was outside groups pressuring our local officials," he said in an interview with The Christian Post. "The complaints came from a Wisconsin organization and the ACLU also tried to make things difficult, even though this was not a local problem and no one from our county had complained about public prayer."

Costner and his friends run a local news website, libertyspeaks.net, so they followed the school district's proceedings closely. "We stay involved in our community, so we all went to the school board meeting when they were deciding on public prayer and we packed it out," he recalls. "It was so crowded that you couldn't move inside, and there was a huge circle of people outside, too. It seemed like everyone in attendance supported prayer in schools, but the school board voted against prayer 3-2 even though not all the members were present for the vote."

The initial complaints from the Freedom From Religion Foundation only demanded that the school board stop prayers and invocations prior to their meetings, but Costner says that some board members were intimidated and reacted by instituting sweeping restrictions. "The school district got so scared and blew things out of proportion that they took prayer out of everything," he lamented. "They did not allow teachers or faculty or staff to participate in the annual 'See You At The Pole' initiative, and they banned prayer and all religious references from athletic events and anything school-related. They took away a lot of rights relating to prayer and free speech."



In addition to ending invocations at all school functions, school officials also decided to replace prayer at high school graduations with a "moment of silence."
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/inter ... kIjxyDC.99

Fast forward several months later to June 1, Liberty High School's graduation day held at Clemson's Littlejohn Coliseum. Roy Costner was the valedictorian of Liberty High School's Class of 2013. He was given strict guidelines for his speech and specifically warned to refrain from any prayers or religious references in his remarks. School officials required him to submit the text of his speech for approval prior to graduation, and Costner turned in a draft with no religious content. But when the moment came for him to deliver his speech, Costner confidently approached the podium, took his approved speech out of the school notebook, and ripped it in half for all to see.

"I first want to say that I turned in my speech to Ms. Gwinn [the principal] which she somehow seemed to approve, so obviously I didn't do my job well enough. So we're going to get rid of that and use a different one," he began.

"Those that we look up to, they have helped carve and mold us into the young adults that we are today. I'm so glad that both of my parents led me to the Lord at a young age," he continued.
And I think most of you will understand when I say…" he said, pausing briefly and stunning the crowd of several thousand with the words he spoke next. "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen."

Just a few words into his recitation of the Lord's Prayer, massive applause and cheering erupted from the audience, so loud in fact that Costner had to raise his voice to be heard.

"Well that was encouraging and emotional," he thought to himself, assuming that this chapter of his life had closed. But he had no idea of the repercussions of his actions. It hasn't even been a week since the event, and videos of his graduation speech have gone viral with one clip at over 170,000 views on YouTube so far.

"I've been so surprised that my story has made national news," Costner said. "It's drawing attention to the issue of prayer at school events, and I'm really encouraged to hear that the coverage might possibly cause the school board to reverse their anti-prayer policy."

Costner had been introduced at graduation by Liberty High School Principal Lori Gwinn as "A student near and dear to me and to us for four years." Gwinn described Costner by saying, "He greets everyone with a positive attitude and always has a smile on his face. He has a passion and an intensity that not many see fully; he has a vision too, and I eagerly anticipate what he will do with that for his future. He dreams big, encourages others, and creates his own path."

In an interview with The Christian Post, Roy Costner IV answered 5 questions about why he decided to defy school rules and pray at graduation, how he is responding to critics, and what he plans to do in the future.

CP: When did you first decide that you were going to defy the school board's rule and pray as part of your valedictorian speech?

Costner: Everything happened very recently. I didn't think I would be valedictorian at all. For a long time I had been in line for salutatorian. I didn't realize it, but I had taken an extra class that bumped me up by a fraction of a point and put me over the top to be valedictorian, so it was a surprised when I was informed of the honor.

I'm a procrastinator, so I waited to start writing my speech until just two weeks before the graduation ceremony. As I drafted my address, I felt led to include a prayer in it. I spoke to several pastors and different people in our community to seek their advice and counsel, because I wanted to be sure I was doing 100 percent of this for God and not for myself. After 2 or 3 days of praying, I felt that God was leading me to have prayer in the speech.

The school board had told me prior to the speech that I was not allowed to have any type of religious references and that the text would have to be preapproved by the board before the ceremony. So I turned in the exact same speech I was planning to deliver, except that I included God in the one I actually gave. All the approved speeches were put in a binder on the podium, so I snuck my speech in the sleeve of my shirt under my robe and took it out when I got to the microphone. I told everyone that our principal had approved my speech and we wouldn't be able to use that one, so I ripped it out of the binder and brought out the other one.

CP: How do you respond to critics who say that you were disrespectful to authority or even deceptive by tearing up your approved speech?

Costner: Let me first say that every person, regardless of their religious affiliation – whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or any other belief – should be allowed to say what they want because of the First Amendment. I felt that my free speech was being encroached upon, because I wasn't allowed to say what I wanted to say or acknowledge who I wanted to acknowledge.

Before my senior year in high school, I never had any encounters with censorship or religious freedom tensions. This only began this past school year with prayer being taken out of school completely.

Also – and I don't say this arrogantly at all – I believe I had earned that time to say what I wanted to say to my senior class. I worked hard in school, and part of the honor of being valedictorian is the opportunity to address your class on graduation. A lot of people seem to think that the 52-second clip of The Lord's Prayer was my entire speech, but my speech was actually about nine minutes total. The rest of my speech focused on my graduating class and our shared experiences at the school. I did my best to recognize my classmates and thank others throughout the speech, and tried to keep the audience entertained.

CP: What has the reaction been like? Has anything about the feedback surprised you?

Costner: The reaction has been tremendous and I am blown away by all the support – from my family, from Fellowship Community Church and others I know in our Liberty community, and from people I've never met across the country. The responses have been overwhelmingly positive and I'm very encouraged to see others supporting prayer.

I have had some personal messages sent to me that are negative and there are lots of critical comments online, but many people just don't understand exactly what I did or why I did it.

I'm also surprised by all the media coverage and interest in this story. I had no idea that things would blow up like this, so after graduation I left to spend a week at the beach with my family. Now I'm doing all these interviews and getting requests to be on national radio programs, it's pretty crazy.

CP: Where do you feel God is calling you for your future college and career plans?

Costner: I am going to Clemson University this Fall to study Computer Science. Other than that, I'm not really sure what's next and I'm still seeking direction for the future.

I've already been contacted by fellow Christians at Clemson who watched the video of my speech, and that's been encouraging. I'm just honored and humbled that God chose to use me in that moment, and I hope he uses me as a witness at Clemson.
Related Valedictorian Rips up Graduation Speech, Recites Lord's Prayer to Protest Censorship

CP: Anything else you would like to say to our readers, or any misconceptions you want to clarify?

Costner: I want to emphasize that everyone should be free to say what they want. Just because I prayed to my God doesn't mean that someone else isn't allowed to pray to who they want or say what they believe. We should all have free speech.

Some people keep saying that I did this for self-promotion or that I'm using it for self-gain, but I never expected it to get this big. Our little town of Liberty, South Carolina has a total of 3,000 people and three red lights. I didn't expect anything to take off, which is why I came to the beach with my parents right after graduation. I never thought people around the country would be talking about it.

Finally, I wanted to make sure my heart was right before I delivered my speech at graduation, and I spent a long time praying about everything and seeking counsel from people I respect. I felt strongly led to acknowledge God in my speech, and I believe the prayer honored Him and He is using it for greater purposes now. I am grateful for everyone who has supported me, and I hope others will choose to take a stand too!

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/inter ... kIjxyDC.99

[Habit7]

Humans belong to the genus "Homo" of which we are Homo Sapiens. Races are distinct populations within the same species and does not apply to genetic differences but phenotype. We see some races may tend to have better athletes while others may tend to have better academics. There is not necessarily a marker for which human race is more evolved as there is success and failure in all.

Darwin would have disagreed with you. He believed that these phenotypic variation displayed themselves in advantageous traits which would one day allow for a more evolved specie within the genus Homo. He believed the phenotype of civility which was most evident in Caucasians, means that they were closest to this specie.

But you believe that Darwin was wrong, what inference did Darwin make that was different from you that makes you right and Darwin wrong?

The issue here may be that you have a preconception that science books are absolute in their claims and knowledge because that is what you apply to the Bible. However this is not the case in science.

Sadly, you are the one that has been making the claims that these theories are absolute and the Bible absolute accounts are counter to them. I have been consistently telling you that there is a difference with absolute empirical science and theoretical historical science. You have clearly said that inspite of all the historical, archeological and prophetic evidence clearly seen in the Bible, you discredit the Bible because it disagrees with theories like Evolution and Big Bang.
You are the one that has been making absolute claims and now you agree that Darwin was wrong about his inference coming out of his theory when applied to humans. Are you now saying the theory of Evolution is relative? If so then why have you been using it as yardstick for the absolute truth of the Bible?

Darwin could have very well made errant claims but the basis of his work fostered major research in evolutionary biology. Modern evolutionary biology only got going in the 1940s with research in adaptation and speciation that carries on today.

His errant claims were the catalyst for atrocities such as the Holocaust in which Jews, Gypsies, the handicapped, homosexuals and the mentally deficient were exterminated to ensure a purer specie. Also it catalyzed Eugenics, which was very similar to the Holocaust but it policies lasted way past the 1940's.

And you think the Bible is wrong because it didnt agree with that? I believe the only reason why human evolutionary biology is not outwardly going down that path because the ethics we have derived from the Bible says that it is wrong. Otherwise, it is very consistent with the theory of Evolution.

[rocknrolla]

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Darwin would have disagreed with you. He believed that these phenotypic variation displayed themselves in advantageous traits which would one day allow for a more evolved specie within the genus Homo. He believed the phenotype of civility which was most evident in Caucasians, means that they were closest to this specie.

yes the civility HE observed AT THAT TIME. That is exactly what I said earlier

Darwin made that comment as part of his understanding... Perhaps just like your Hebrews, this was the understanding, given the social structure, in 19th Century Europe

(when Darwin was alive)

I see that you have somewhat of a fixation with mentioning Dr. Lisle while erroneously saying that in your view, science doesnt need a figurehead. I brought up Dr Lisle when you asked for some intellectually accurate data supporting creationism. Apparently his Phd in Astrophysics did meet the standard of your intense hours of reading Wikipedia in which you questioned his informed difference of opinion with theories you equate to fact.

I guess just as Dr. Lisle says that T-Rex was a herbivore and ate plants. Clearly misjudgments on both parts.

Did Dr. Lisle say that? Or would Dr Lisle agree that the T-Rex spent the vast majority of existence on the earth as carnivores?

Dr Lisle seems very informed here

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The issue here may be that you have a preconception that science books are absolute in their claims and knowledge because that is what you apply to the Bible. However this is not the case in science.

Sadly, you are the one that has been making the claims that these theories are absolute and the Bible absolute accounts are counter to them. I have been consistently telling you that there is a difference with absolute empirical science and theoretical historical science. You have clearly said that inspite of all the historical, archeological and prophetic evidence clearly seen in the Bible, you discredit the Bible because it disagrees with theories like Evolution and Big Bang.
You are the one that has been making absolute claims and now you agree that Darwin was wrong about his inference coming out of his theory when applied to humans. Are you now saying the theory of Evolution is relative? If so then why have you been using it as yardstick for the absolute truth of the Bible?

No! you claim the earth is ~6000 years old and dinosaurs and man live together at the same time. I said there is alot of scientific evidence that disagrees with your claim.

I said Darwin was incorrect in his specific observation of caucasians being more evolved due to his limited scope given the time in which he lived. Him being wrong about an observation does not necessarily make him wrong for his theory on evolution. There has been alot of further development in evolutionary biology since Darwin's death using processes that Darwin himself could not have access to due to limited technology.

Darwin could have very well made errant claims but the basis of his work fostered major research in evolutionary biology. Modern evolutionary biology only got going in the 1940s with research in adaptation and speciation that carries on today.

His errant claims were the catalyst for atrocities such as the Holocaust in which Jews, Gypsies, the handicapped, homosexuals and the mentally deficient were exterminated to ensure a purer specie. Also it catalyzed Eugenics, which was very similar to the Holocaust but it policies lasted way past the 1940's.

Darwin caused the Holocaust?!!!

And you think the Bible is wrong because it didnt agree with that? I believe the only reason why human evolutionary biology is not outwardly going down that path because the ethics we have derived from the Bible says that it is wrong. Otherwise, it is very consistent with the theory of Evolution.

well that is what you believe.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

BTW evolution does not try to strive for equality or even care. If some races or species or genera evolve faster or are more evolved at a specific time than others then that is what it is.

Far more scientific than claiming "God made humans in his own image and likeness to be the top of creation in the universe"

[MG Man]

Vorsprung durch Technik

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ still trying to get over the claim that Darwin caused the Holocaust!
using that logic then Newton caused the bomb, Archimedes caused the use of battle ships and Jesus caused the Crusades.

[MG Man]

and god caused girl on girl porn
yay god

[Habit7]

The German Fuhrer . . . consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.
Sir Arthur Keith, Evolution and Ethics (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1947), p. 230.

The leader of Germany is an evolutionist, not only in theory, but, as millions know to their cost, in the rigor of its practice. For him, the national "front" of Europe is also the evolutionary "front;" he regards himself, and is regarded, as the incarnation of the will of Germany, the purpose of that will being to guide the evolutionary destiny of its people.
Sir Arthur Keith, Evolution and Ethics (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1947), p. 10.

Hitler used the German word for evolution (Entwicklung) over and over again in his book. In fact, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the very title itself of Hitler's book ("My Struggle"), was influenced by Darwin's subtitle, "Struggle for Existence," and by the German advocate of evolution, Ernst Haeckel, who published a book, in 1905, entitled, Der Kampf um den Entwicklungs-Gedanken ("The Struggle over Evolutionary Thinking").

In Hitler's Mein Kampf, he spoke of "lower human types." He criticized the Jews for bringing "Negroes into the Rhineland" with the aim of "ruining the white race by the necessarily resulting bastardization." He spoke of "Monstrosities halfway between man and ape" and lamented the fact of Christians going to "Central Africa" to set up "Negro missions," resulting in the turning of "healthy . . . human beings into a rotten brood of bastards." In his chapter entitled "Nation and Race," he said, "The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable." A few pages later, he said, "Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live."
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1943), pp. 286, 295, 325, 402, 403, 285, 289 respectively.

[Habit7]

Darwin would have disagreed with you. He believed that these phenotypic variation displayed themselves in advantageous traits which would one day allow for a more evolved specie within the genus Homo. He believed the phenotype of civility which was most evident in Caucasians, means that they were closest to this specie.

yes the civility HE observed AT THAT TIME. That is exactly what I said earlier

Well are you using the phenotypes of your time when you referred to phenotypes of athletics and academics?

I have tried to find that Dr Lisle quote in context outside of hostile sources in which one person attributes to hearing him make. But if I am to take it at face value, I disassociate myself from his deduction. Animal dentition is not mentioned in the Bible.

I said Darwin was incorrect in his specific observation of caucasians being more evolved due to his limited scope given the time in which he lived. Him being wrong about an observation does not necessarily make him wrong for his theory on evolution. There has been alot of further development in evolutionary biology since Darwin's death using processes that Darwin himself could not have access to due to limited technology.

Apart from that erroneous outworking of racism, Darwin based his theory on the claims of the simple cell, the future discovery of numerous transitional fossils, lack of knowledge of the Cambrian Explosion, homology and all life being explained by his Tree of Life diagram.
All which we know today is wrong.

However with the Bible's historical, archeological and prophetic claims continually proving to be right, gives me the more sure ground than the shifting sands of theories.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The German Fuhrer . . . consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.
Sir Arthur Keith, Evolution and Ethics (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1947), p. 230.

The leader of Germany is an evolutionist, not only in theory, but, as millions know to their cost, in the rigor of its practice. For him, the national "front" of Europe is also the evolutionary "front;" he regards himself, and is regarded, as the incarnation of the will of Germany, the purpose of that will being to guide the evolutionary destiny of its people.
Sir Arthur Keith, Evolution and Ethics (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1947), p. 10.

Hitler used the German word for evolution (Entwicklung) over and over again in his book. In fact, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the very title itself of Hitler's book ("My Struggle"), was influenced by Darwin's subtitle, "Struggle for Existence," and by the German advocate of evolution, Ernst Haeckel, who published a book, in 1905, entitled, Der Kampf um den Entwicklungs-Gedanken ("The Struggle over Evolutionary Thinking").

In Hitler's Mein Kampf, he spoke of "lower human types." He criticized the Jews for bringing "Negroes into the Rhineland" with the aim of "ruining the white race by the necessarily resulting bastardization." He spoke of "Monstrosities halfway between man and ape" and lamented the fact of Christians going to "Central Africa" to set up "Negro missions," resulting in the turning of "healthy . . . human beings into a rotten brood of bastards." In his chapter entitled "Nation and Race," he said, "The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable." A few pages later, he said, "Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live."
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1943), pp. 286, 295, 325, 402, 403, 285, 289 respectively.

Hitler was crazy, you cannot blame Darwin for that.

We might as well blame the writers of the Bible for every horror against humanity that was claimed to have been done in the name of Christianity, however misconstrued.

[Habit7]

Hitler was crazy, you cannot blame Darwin for that.

That is your view. Hitler was the chosen leader of country known for their affability and distinction for detail. He was just following the theory that said nature was going to do what he did anyway.

But I know you and I disagree with Hitler very strongly. I disagree with him because of my biblical ethical standard, on what basis do you disagree with him?

We might as well blame the writers of the Bible for every horror against humanity that was claimed to have been done in the name of Christianity, however misconstrued.

Well not quite, because not only does the Bible not advocate any horrors against humanity, it is the standard by which we judge horrors against humanity and deem them to be morally wrong.

[New_SPECIES]

Like I said Last Week....




...............................

[rocknrolla]

[megadoc1]

^ still trying to get over the claim that Darwin caused the Holocaust!

heh!

[Daran]

and god caused girl on girl porn
yay god

X2

[rocknrolla]

^ still trying to get over the claim that Darwin caused the Holocaust!

heh!

nice video... but mr jew presenter is seemingly forgetting about the current and enduring plight of palestine while he toots his horn about the 6th commandment.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Apart from that erroneous outworking of racism, Darwin based his theory on the claims of the simple cell, the future discovery of numerous transitional fossils, lack of knowledge of the Cambrian Explosion, homology and all life being explained by his Tree of Life diagram.
All which we know today is wrong.

yes scientists can be wrong, they also have no problem saying they are wrong. Infact the scientific method and peer review ensures that wrong information is not perpetuated.

However with the Bible's historical, archeological and prophetic claims continually proving to be right, gives me the more sure ground than the shifting sands of theories.

you mean like it stating the earth is ~6000 years old and dinosaurs and man roamed the earth together?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Hitler was crazy, you cannot blame Darwin for that.

That is your view. Hitler was the chosen leader of country known for their affability and distinction for detail. He was just following the theory that said nature was going to do what he did anyway.

Except that he was wrong. Many other races excel today.

But I know you and I disagree with Hitler very strongly. I disagree with him because of my biblical ethical standard, on what basis do you disagree with him?

I disagree with him based on my personal ethical standard. Each person has their own personal ethical standard: some people think it is unethical to drink and drive while others think it is ok and do it every weekend. Does the Bible tell you to not drink and drive?

[

We might as well blame the writers of the Bible for every horror against humanity that was claimed to have been done in the name of Christianity, however misconstrued.

Well not quite, because not only does the Bible not advocate any horrors against humanity, it is the standard by which we judge horrors against humanity and deem them to be morally wrong.

that is entirely your opinion. AdamB claims that would be attributed to the Qur'an and Hadith. What makes him wrong and you right?

[bluefete]

Rocknrolla: Very interesting discussion on Adam and the light he was clothed with initially. Gave me some serious pause. The only thing was that he had this light in an earthly body. Remember God created man from the dust of the earth. So event though the plan was for man to live forever, sin caused decay and a shortening of the process.

Duane: Darwin's theory of evolution as applied to different societies mirrored much more than the thinking of his day. It was another effort by the Europeans to try and stamp their superiority over people they viewed as inferior. This was at a time when the abolitionists were fighting for an end to slavery. The irony is whether they really meant for the monkey-link to be applied to Europeans as well! That thinking is still very much prevalent today.

[bluefete]

The Bible has been accurate all along, if only people would understand.

Science supports the bible. Not the other way.

There is water on many bodies in both inner and outer space. Genesis clearly stated this in the very first chapter.

Genesis 1:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.



Saturn's Icy Moon Dione May Hide Watery Secret
by Tanya Lewis, LiveScience Staff Writer
Date: 10 June 2013 Time: 06:00 AM ET


The plain-looking Saturn moon Dione may have once had a geologically active subsurface ocean, new images from NASA's Cassini spacecraft reveal.

Images of Dione's 500-mile-long (800 kilometers) mountain Janiculum Dorsa suggest that the moon could have been a weaker copycat of Enceladus, Saturn's icy geyser moon.

"There may turn out to be many more active worlds with water out there than we previously thought," Bonnie Buratti, who leads the Cassini science team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., said in a statement.

Subsurface oceans are thought to exist on several bodies in the solar system, including Saturn's moons Enceladus and Titan and Jupiter's moon Europa. These geologic hotspots have garnered the interest of scientists searching for the building blocks of life beyond Earth. If Dione turned out to have a liquid layer under its crust, that would increase the moon's chances of supporting life.

Cassini, which has been exploring Saturn since 2004, detected a weak particle stream coming from Dione with its magnetometer. Images taken by the spacecraft suggest a slushy liquid layer might exist beneath its icy crust, as well as ancient, inactive fractures that now spew water ice and carbon-containing particles, much like ones seen on Enceladus.

Dione's Janiculum Dorsa ranges from about 0.6 to 1.2 miles (1 to 2 kilometers) in height. The mountain seems to have deformed the icy crust underneath by as much as 0.3 mile (0.5 kilometer). The deformation implies the crust was warm, most likely from a subsurface ocean when the mountain formed, the researchers said.


The Cassini spacecraft looks down, almost directly at the north pole of Dione. The feature just left of the terminator at bottom is Janiculum Dorsa, a long, roughly north-south trending ridge. Image taken March 22, 2008.
CREDIT: NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute




As Dione swings around Saturn, it gets squished and stretched, causing it to heat up. When you have a subsurface ocean that lets the icy crust float around on top, Saturn's gravitational pull becomes amplified and generates 10 times more heat, the researchers said. The heating could also be caused by a local hotspot or a crazy orbit, but these explanations are less likely.

Scientists don't know why Dione hasn't been as active as Enceladus. The latter may have experienced stronger gravitational forces or more radioactive heating in its core, they suggest. Subsurface oceans appear to be common on icy satellites, and could exist on dwarf planets like Ceres and Pluto.

Cassini's recent findings were reported in March in the journal Icarus.

http://www.space.com/21482-saturn-moon- ... ocean.html



Rover Finds New Evidence That Ancient Mars Was Habitable
by Mike Wall, SPACE.com Senior Writer
Date: 07 June 2013 Time: 02:27 PM ET

NASA's Mars rover Opportunity has made perhaps the biggest discovery of its nearly 10-year career, finding evidence that life may have been able to get a foothold on the Red Planet long ago.

The Opportunity rover spotted clay minerals in an ancient rock on the rim of Mars' Endeavour Crater, suggesting that benign, neutral-pH water once flowed through the area, scientists said.

"This is water you could drink," Opportunity principal investigator Steve Squyres of Cornell University told reporters today (June 7), explaining why the rock, dubbed "Esperance," stands out from other water-soaked stones the rover has studied.


"This is water that was probably much more favorable in its chemistry, in its pH, in its level of acidity, for things like prebiotic chemistry — the kind of chemistry that could lead to the origin of life," Squyres added.


The golf cart-size Opportunity and its twin, Spirit, landed on the Red Planet in January 2004 on three-month missions to search for signs of past water activity. The robotic explorers found plenty of such evidence (much of it indicating extremely acidic water, however), then just kept rolling along.

Spirit stopped communicating with Earth in 2010 and was declared dead a year later, but Opportunity is still going strong. In August 2011, the six-wheeled robot arrived at the rim of the 14-mile-wide Endeavour Crater, which it has been investigating ever since.

A stereo pair of images from taken from Mars orbit were used to generate a digital elevation model that is the basis for this simulated perspective view of "Cape York," "Botany Bay," and "Solander Point" on the western rim of Endeavour Crater.

Opportunity has seen signs of clays in Endeavour rocks before, but in nowhere near the concentrations observed in Esperance, researchers said. Overall, Esperance provides strong evidence that ancient Mars was habitable.

"The fundamental conditions that we believe to be necessary for life were met here," Squyres said.

The neutral-pH water that generated the clays probably flowed through the region during the first billion years of Martian history, he added, stressing that it's nearly impossible to pin down the absolute ages of Red Planet rocks without bringing them back to Earth.

Opportunity's latest discovery fits well with one made recently on the other side of the planet by the rover's bigger, younger cousin Curiosity, which found strong evidence that its landing site could have supported microbial life in the ancient past.

Such observations could help scientists map out Mars' transition from a relatively warm and wet world long ago to the cold and dry planet we know today.

"All the details need to be worked out, but the more we look, the more it fits into this kind of broad context," said Opportunity deputy principal investigator Ray Arvidson of Washington University in St. Louis.

Opportunity had spent the last 20 months at a spot called Cape York, but it has now begun to trek toward Solander Point, which rises 180 feet (55 meters) from the surrounding Martian plains.

The mission team is intrigued by the many layers of geological material Opportunity can investigate at Solander Point. The area also has a north-facing slope, which will allow Opportunity to point its electricity-generating solar panels toward the sun during the coming southern-hemisphere Martian winter.


NASA's Mars rover Opportunity captured this view of Solander Point on June 1, 2013. The southward-looking scene, presented in false color, shows Solander Point on the center horizon, "Botany Bay" in the foreground, and "Cape Tribulation" in the far background at left.
CREDIT: NASA/JPL-Caltech/Cornell Univ./Arizona State Univ.



The height of this winter will occur in February 2014, but Opportunity's handlers want to get the robot to Solander by the beginning of August, so it can investigate the region and help plan out a winter science campaign, researchers said.

There's no reason to think Opportunity won't complete the 1.4-mile trek (2.2 km) to Solander, or that it won't survive its sixth Martian winter; the rover remains in good health despite its advanced age, mission officials said.

Still, the Opportunity team is taking nothing for granted.


The pale rock in the upper center of this image, about the size of a human forearm, includes a target called "Esperance," which was inspected by NASA's Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity. This image is a composite of three exposures taken by Opportunity's panoramic camera during the 3,262nd Martian day, or sol, of the rover's work on Mars (March 28, 2013).
CREDIT: NASA/JPL-Caltech/Cornell/Arizona State Univ.


"The rover could have a catastrophic failure at any moment," said Opportunity project manager John Callas, of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. "So each day is a gift."

Opportunity is poised to break the international record for distance traveled on another world during the drive to Solander Point. That mark is held by the Soviet Union's remote-controlled Lunokhod 2 rover, which traveled 23 miles (37 km) on the moon in 1973.

However, Opportunity scientists said today that Lunokhod 2's total mileage is just an estimate, so it's tough to know what the actual record is. They plan to hold off on any announcements until someone can calculate a precise odometer reading for Lunokhod 2, possibly by using measurements by moon-orbiting spacecraft.

Opportunity's odometer currently reads 22.75 miles (36.61 km).
http://www.space.com/21483-mars-life-na ... pid=527256

[rocknrolla]

Rocknrolla: Very interesting discussion on Adam and the light he was clothed with initially. Gave me some serious pause. The only thing was that he had this light in an earthly body. Remember God created man from the dust of the earth. So event though the plan was for man to live forever, sin caused decay and a shortening of the process.

agreed.. tho it was not made clear enough by me just saying flesh and regular flesh, soil and regular soil.

let's call it 'divine form of flesh' and here's what we should note..

when one is viewing the world with spiritual eyes.. all they see is energy in the form of white light. white light radiates from every building, the roads and yes even ppl. all matter is seen in energy form during samadhi. thus it is all adam and eve would know.

losing spiritual eyesight they saw their own flesh for the first time.

thus in the spiritual vision context, the body would appear to be made of light. just as with regular eyes the body seems to be made ONLY of flesh. in that aspect..our bodies are transformed based on the observational tools we are using. those who cannot see light will see only flesh.. and those who see light will see only light.

this explains also why the earth fell with adam. in truth nothing ever changed besides our ability to perceive. the light is still there.

thru this we see that 'the fall' is a metaphor for the loss of spiritual sight.. spiritual light.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ still trying to get over the claim that Darwin caused the Holocaust!

heh!

watched the first 2 mins. Proves that American kids don't know who Hitler is.

Will watch the rest later.

How's your exorcisms going?

[bluefete]

our bodies are transformed based on the observational tools we are using. those who cannot see light will see only flesh.. and those who see light will see only light.

this explains also why the earth fell with adam.

thru this we see that 'the fall' is a metaphor for the loss of spiritual sight.. spiritual light.

What is interesting here is that it is written that when the trumpet sounds at the 2nd coming, we shall all be changed and this mortal body must put on immortality. The dead will rise transformed and those who are alive at that time will also be transformed.

Very interesting reading your posts. Sorry I don't have the time anymore to engage as much as I would like.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The Bible has been accurate all along, if only people would understand.

Science supports the bible. Not the other way.

There is water on many bodies in both inner and outer space. Genesis clearly stated this in the very first chapter.

Genesis 1:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

How does that CLEARLY state that the surface of Mars was once habitable?

What about all the other planets?

[bluefete]

The Bible has been accurate all along, if only people would understand.

Science supports the bible. Not the other way.

There is water on many bodies in both inner and outer space. Genesis clearly stated this in the very first chapter.

Genesis 1:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

How does that CLEARLY state that the surface of Mars was once habitable?

What about all the other planets?

Duane: God does not have to spell everything out for you. That is why there is science. Its job is to discover how God did it.

You are nitpicking.

The Bible stated thousands of years ago that there is water ABOVE the firmament (heaven as we know it).

It took science thousands of years later to begin to find EVIDENCE of what the Bible mentioned so long ago.

So lets see, water is found - on the moon, on Mars, On moons of Jupiter, On moons of Saturn. -
Uranus, Neptune and Pluto - maybe one day.

On exo-planets - maybe one day.

You read it first in the Bible.

[rocknrolla]

our bodies are transformed based on the observational tools we are using. those who cannot see light will see only flesh.. and those who see light will see only light.

this explains also why the earth fell with adam.

thru this we see that 'the fall' is a metaphor for the loss of spiritual sight.. spiritual light.

What is interesting here is that it is written that when the trumpet sounds at the 2nd coming, we shall all be changed and this mortal body must put on immortality. The dead will rise transformed and those who are alive at that time will also be transformed.

Very interesting reading your posts. Sorry I don't have the time anymore to engage as much as I would like.

yup.. sounds to me like a promise that one day everyone will see again. a tale quite common in ancient prophecies.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The Bible has been accurate all along, if only people would understand.

Science supports the bible. Not the other way.

There is water on many bodies in both inner and outer space. Genesis clearly stated this in the very first chapter.

Genesis 1:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

How does that CLEARLY state that the surface of Mars was once habitable?

What about all the other planets?

Duane: God does not have to spell everything out for you. That is why there is science. Its job is to discover how God did it.

You are nitpicking.

The Bible stated thousands of years ago that there is water ABOVE the firmament (heaven as we know it).

It took science thousands of years later to begin to find EVIDENCE of what the Bible mentioned so long ago.

So lets see, water is found - on the moon, on Mars, On moons of Jupiter, On moons of Saturn. -
Uranus, Neptune and Pluto - maybe one day.

On exo-planets - maybe one day.

You read it first in the Bible.

but that is so amazingly vague and abstract compared to your claim.

Also that same science refutes the very biblical claims made in this thread of the earth being ~6000 years old, dinosaurs walked with man, Adam and Eve created from dirt and a rib respectively, global flood with only 8 humans left to repopulate etc etc etc. Why?

Or do you just take the science that agrees with what you think in the bible and you ignore the rest?