The Religion Discussion

[bluefete]

A bit long but VERY, VERY interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22250412?ico=home^editors_choice

21 May 2013 Last updated at 02:22 GMT

How religions change their mind
By William Kremer BBC World Service


Once upon a time, animal sacrifice was an important part of Hindu life, Catholic priests weren't celibate and visual depictions of the Prophet Muhammad were part of Islamic art. And soon some churches in the UK may be marrying gay couples. How do religions manage to change their mind?

In 1889, Wilford Woodruff became the fourth president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - more commonly known as the Mormon Church.

As president, he was seen as a living prophet, someone who could receive wisdom and advice from Jesus Christ. And he was certainly in need of advice - his church was in crisis.

For 40 years, Mormons had been at loggerheads with the US Congress over the issue of polygamy, which was encouraged among male believers. The government said it was illegal, and held that religious conviction was no defence.
Wilford Woodruff in 1889 Woodruff in 1889 - he had seven wives across his life, and 33 children

Woodruff and others lived a precarious life, moving around in an attempt to dodge marshals with arrest warrants for bigamy. In 1890, the government brought things to a head by moving to confiscate all of the church's assets.

It was then, Woodruff said, that Jesus Christ appeared to him in a vision and showed him the future of the Mormon Church if the practice wasn't stopped - and it wasn't pretty. Although he did not renounce plural marriage, he issued a manifesto banning it.

If that sounds like a problem easily solved, it wasn't - according to Kathleen Flake, a professor in American religious history at Vanderbilt University, and a Mormon herself.

"It was a very difficult thing socially, personally and theologically," she says. The change destabilised the entire church, and led to deep reflection about what Mormonism's core principles were.

History shows that any religion that refuses to change dies out, Flake adds. But what about those religions that don't have living prophets - how do they change?

For Muslims, the last prophet, the Prophet Muhammad, died almost 1,400 years ago. So it's the ulama, a class of legal scholars, who rule on contentious points of Islamic or sharia law based upon a careful scrutiny of fundamental sacred texts, including the Koran and the Sunnah, a collection of stories relating the beliefs and practices of Muhammad.

An obvious challenge here is how specific laws governing life in 7th Century Arabia can be applied across the world in the 21st Century. Perhaps it's no surprise that the ulama in different countries make different judgements, and sometimes change their mind.

A century ago, using a radio or loudspeaker was haraam - forbidden. Today, many observant Muslims have their own radio, TV and even YouTube channels.

Similarly, at the time of the Iranian revolution in 1979, the ulama there said that birth control was haraam, but now the use of condoms is encouraged, with state-supported condom factories and pre-marital family planning lessons.

"The assumption was that anything from the West was going to undermine Islam," says Muqtedar Khan of the University of Delaware.

And quite often, he says, there is a tension between aspects of Western daily life and Muslim teachings. One challenge for Muslim men, for example, is the urinal.

"One of the traditions for Muslim men is to sit and pee," Khan says, explaining that this was thought to be the best way of preventing spillage that would defile devotees' clothes before prayers. This is not always possible in the urinal-loving West.

Another challenge is the architecture of Western homes.

"These houses that are designed in the West have no gender segregation. If you're having a Muslim-only party and then you have women who want segregation, then it is very complicated," he says, adding that he missed three or four of his son's birthday parties as a result.

Sometimes Muslims in multicultural societies long for scriptures to be reinterpreted, Khan says.

Clerics faced with these decisions have a choice between a literal interpretation of the Koran, or attempting to look beneath the surface for a deeper message.

The key, according to Tariq Ramadan of Oxford University is to distinguish "principles" that are immutable and "models" that are a product of the time and place the stories were told. From this perspective, changing our inferences from the Koran is not just an option but an obligation.

"There is no faithfulness to the message of Islam without evolution in our understanding," he says.

So, while there is a verse of the Koran which appears to permit beating a woman, "the best example was the Messenger himself never beating a woman," Ramadan says.

Arvind Sharma, a professor of Comparative Religion at McGill University, relates an incident which seems to show how it's possible to update models at the same time as underscoring the principles that form a religion's continuity. His anecdote centres on the moment Mahatma Gandhi discussed the principle of karma - the Hindu doctrine that you will pay for your actions, or be rewarded for them, perhaps in a future life.

"Karma was used to justify untouchability in classical Hinduism," says Sharma. "A person is born an untouchable because in a previous life he performed certain foul deeds, so he should accept the status quo as it is."

Sharma says Gandhi pointed out that all castes of Hindus had been treated as untouchable by the British in India, who would post signs outside their clubs saying "Dogs and Indians not allowed".

"Gandhi's argument was: 'You see how karma works? You treated people as untouchable on the basis of their birth, and you have also been treated as untouchables on the basis of your birth.'" In criticising Indians' traditional interpretation of karma - and showing how they were paying for their poor treatment of untouchables - Gandhi was at the same time invoking and restating the principle of karma.

A famous story from the Talmud, one of the Jewish holy books, seems to foresee that future generations will interpret holy law in their own way.

In the story, Moses goes to Mt Sinai to receive the Torah - another Jewish holy book - from God. Moses spots God embellishing the letters with little crowns.



"Moses, who was a humble man, says 'Well, really you know, I'll take it plain,'" relates Rabbi Burt Visotzky from the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York.

"And God says: 'No - many generations from now there will be a rabbi by the name of Akiva, and he will actually derive Jewish law from the very crownlets on the letters.'"

When God shows Moses a vision of Rabbi Akiva teaching, Moses is dismayed because he can't understand anything.

"Built within the Talmud itself - that repository of great law and wisdom of the rabbis - is a notion that things change but it's still all part of revelation," says Visotzky.

One of the forces exerting pressure on religion to change is science. The Copernican Revolution - when scholars grasped that the earth revolves around the sun, rather than vice-versa - is an obvious example.

This clashed with the church's own teaching on the subject. The Inquisition found Copernicus's successor Galileo "vehemently suspect of heresy" and he spent the last decade of his life under house arrest.

As well as his works on physics and astronomy Galileo wrote two tracts on the interpretation of scripture.

"He essentially said the scriptures were written to tell us how to go to heaven and not how the heavens go," says George Coyne, a Jesuit priest who ran the Vatican's own observatory for 28 years.

The Catholic church now admits that Galileo was right and in 1992 Pope John Paul II formally exonerated him. But science continues to raise difficult questions for the church.

"The whole area of genetics, molecular biology and evolution in general are quite a challenge to the church," says Coyne. "Does the ghost of Galileo come back to speak? Yes it does. My loving church! What you did in the Galileo period was not listen to science."

For Coyne, it is the role of scientifically trained believers to throw themselves into the muddy, difficult process of squaring the church's teachings with the discoveries of science and the opportunities they offer for humanity.

The question of what to believe - or who to believe - falls, in the end, to believers rather than teachers.

"We ultimately have to make that creative effort to think for ourselves and puzzle things out for ourselves," says Karen Armstrong, the author of a History of God, and more than 20 other works in religious studies.

While the answer to the question of how to live might be found using scripture, it won't be in scripture, she says, just as the ability to drive is not found in a car manual.

But she admits that this is hard for those people who, in a world of rapid change, look to their religion for something steady and fixed - an easy-to-access pot of answers.

"People often think religion is easy," says Armstrong. "In fact it requires a great deal of intellectual, spiritual and imaginative effort. It's a struggle that never ceases."

Selected U-turns
A Muslim woman using a megaphone


Radios, loudspeakers and telephones were forbidden for Muslims 100 years ago - one story relates how a Saudi king instructed a cleric to recite the Koran down the phone to another scholar to prove the invention was not corrupting.

There were figurative miniatures of the Prophet Muhammad in both Ottoman and Persian art - the 14th Century Turkish epic Siyer-i Nebi features many such illustrations, although the Prophet's face is veiled.

In ancient times animal sacrifice was a core part of Hinduism, as described in texts such as the Vedas and the Mahabharata - it's widely abhorred now, but still practised in some areas.

In the 10th Century most rural Christian priests were married - the Catholic Church cracked down on this in the 12th Century.


Absolving the Past is a two-part documentary from the BBC World Service, presented by Imam Khalid Latif (above).

Listen to Part One - the Mormon Church, Islam, Hinduism

Listen to Part Two - Judaism, the Catholic Church

[bluefete]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... /?ico=home^editors_choice

A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live

By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey, Published: May 23, 2013 at 3:05 pm


Pope Francis’s pronouncement that God has “redeemed all of us … even the atheists” Wednesday surprised both believers and nonbelievers around the world, who are used to stricter edicts from the Catholic church. It also got us wondering where the world’s atheists live.



There’s surprisingly little data available on the subject. But a 2012 poll by WIN/Gallup International — an international polling firm that is not associated with the D.C.-based Gallup group — asked more than 50,000 people in 40 countries whether they considered themselves “religious,” “not religious” or “convinced atheist.” Overall, the poll concluded that roughly 13 percent of global respondents identified as atheists, more than double the percentage in the U.S.

The highest reported share of self-described atheists is in China: an astounding 47 percent. Faith has a complicated history in China. The state is deeply skeptical of organized religion, which it has long considered a threat to its authority.

In the Taiping rebellion of the 19th century, a religious cult started a Chinese civil war that killed millions of people and left the country exposed to European powers. The official ideology of the Communist government scorned both “new” Western religions and more traditionally Chinese faiths, destroying countless temples and relics during the Cultural Revolution of 1967 to 1977. While today’s Chinese leaders do not seem to share Mao Zedong’s fervent belief that China’s rich religious history was holding it back from modernity, nor do they seem prepared to bring that history back.

Japan, where 31 percent call themselves atheist, is a little more complicated. While superficial religious observation is common – many weddings take place in churches – formal religious practice has never really recovered from the imperial era that culminated with World War Two.

For much of the 1920 through 1940s, Japan’s imperial government combined an extreme form of race-based nationalism with emperor-worship and traditional Shinto practice. Some symbols of that era still remain, such as the Yasukuni shrine, though they are deeply controversial and often associated with the country’s wartime abuses.

Like nationalism in Germany, a bit of a post-war taboo has developed around religion in Japan. Separately, there is an alarming trend in Japan of forced religious de-conversion, in which families may “kidnap” a loved one who as adopted a faith seen as too extreme, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, and pressure them to give it up.

One of the most surprising datapoints here might be Saudi Arabia, where 5 percent say they’re atheist. Not a high number, to be sure, but higher than in many other countries, despite the extremely sensitive taboo against atheism in Saudi Arabia, which is also considered a serious crime. (In both Iraq and Afghanistan, for instance, less than 1 percent of respondents called themselves atheists.) We looked earlier at the surprisingly robust community of underground Saudi atheists.

In addition to Iraq and Afghanistan, religious sentiment is strong in Ghana, Nigeria, Armenia and Fiji, where more than nine in 10 people say they’re religious. WIN/Gallup notes that religiosity is highest among the poor and, to a lesser extent, among the less educated, which certainly correlates among the most religious countries. (Ghana’s GDP per capita, for instance, ranks 173rd worldwide.)

As for Italy, a stone’s throw from the Vatican chapel where Pope Francis spoke on Wednesday, the Catholic Church has little to fear. Despite a gradual slide in Catholic baptisms in Italy over the past several decades, nearly three-fourths of Italians consider themselves religious. That number has actually grown one percent since 2005, according to WIN/Gallup, bucking the trend toward weaker religious feeling seen elsewhere in the world.

[bluefete]

12 year Old Girl Paints heaven - Her Mother was/is an atheist!!

[rocknrolla]

such multi talented ppl are most usually inclined towards the spiritual nature within themselves. it becomes easy all the things that challenge the average intellect. it brings both envy and adoration from those who cant comprehend the abilities. and they ask the question "why not me?"

the answer is a question.. "How sincere are your aspirations and who do you attribute your success to?"

perhaps it lends credence to the concept of the Guardian Angel. one who watches over you your entire life, sees into your heart and your thoughts and denies or allows you deeper access into the heavenly realms based on your sincerity.

[stev]

what kinda crazy exam is that?


“I am convinced that the act of thinking logically cannot possibly be natural to the human mind. If it were, then mathematics would be everybody's easiest course at school and our species would not have taken several millennia to figure out the scientific method.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson, The Sky is Not the Limit: Adventures of an Urban Astrophysicist


and my favourite

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Silly woman. But if her son had died the first person she would blame is God.

The embarrassing moment Wolf Blitzer asks mother if she thanked the Lord for surviving tornado... and she tells him she's an atheist

By Daily Mail Reporter

PUBLISHED: 05:15 GMT, 23 May 2013 | UPDATED: 12:46 GMT, 23 May 2013

Times of stress and hardship often turn non-religious people into believers.

But one Moore, Oklahoma resident refused to thank to Lord for surviving the gigantic tornado that pulverized her suburb on Monday, making for an extremely awkward TV interview.

Embarrassing: In a clip going viral on the internet, CNN's Blitzer asks survivor Rebecca Vitsmun: 'I guess you got to thank the Lord. Right?' After an uncomfortable pause, Vitsmun replies: 'I... I'm actually an atheist.'

In a clip going viral on the internet, CNN's Wolf Blitzer stands in front of mountains of debris and says to survivor Rebecca Vitsmun: 'We're happy you're here. You guys did a great job. I guess you got to thank the Lord. Right?'

The young mom initially says 'yeah,' looking awkwardly at her feet, but Blitzer presses her.

'Did you thank the Lord for that split-second decision?' he says, as Vitsmun cradles her 19-month-old son, Anders.

After an uncomfortable pause, Vitsmun replies: 'I... I'm actually an atheist' and then laughs awkwardly.

Clearly taken aback, Blitzer, also laughing, scrambles to recover.

'You are. All right,' he says. 'But you made the right call.'

Humbly, Vitsmun responds: 'Yeah. We are here. And you know, I don't blame anybody for thanking the Lord.'

Critics took to Twitter to blast Blitzer for the blunder, while others rallied for Vitsmun as an advocate for atheists the world over.

'I wonder if that atheist interviewed by Wolf Blitzer knows that she's a Twitter hero?' user Ozark Atheist tweeted.

Vitsmun narrowly survived the tornado by fleeing her home moments before it struck, with her baby in tow. In the days after the storm, she and her husband, Brian, began picking through the remains of their devastated property.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z2UANlEypn
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

can you blame God for the tornado?

[Habit7]

I am beginning to think that rocknrolla is turbotusty 'reincarnated.'

[rocknrolla]

I am beginning to think that rocknrolla is turbotusty 'reincarnated.'

yes turbotusty is now dead.. and rocknrolla has risen from the ashes.. LM FAO

[MG Man]

why are people offering their prayers to the victims..........why not pray god never unleashes his kind of savage dotishness again?

[Daran]

"You cannot thank an omnipotent "God" for saving some people in a disastrous accident without blaming him for abandoning the rest."-- Andrew Bain

[AdamB]

I am beginning to think

You had me at ^.

[AdamB]

"You cannot thank an omnipotent "God" for saving some people in a disastrous accident without blaming him for abandoning the rest."-- Andrew Bain

You can't blame GOD period!

Who do atheists blame? We can only blame ourselves or no one at all!!

[Habit7]

Hey you redacted my post.

Kinda like how those mysterious people redacted the Islamic Torah, Psalms and Gospel from its true original teaching

[Dizzy28]

MG, Daran alluh eeen!!!!

Pope Francis suggests atheists’ good deeds gets them to heaven
By Cheryl K. Chumley
The Washington Times
Friday, May 24, 2013

Pope Francis has sparked a religious debate with comments made earlier this week confirming atheists can indeed go to heaven. Christian teaching generally holds that belief in Jesus, and not good deeds, grants eternal life.

But the pope, in a morning Mass on Wednesday, suggested that belief and faith weren’t the biggest factors. He said, CNN reported: “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ — all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone. ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist.’ But do good: We will meet one another there.”

The comments were welcomed by Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the American Humanist Association.

“I gather from this statement that his view of the worlds’ religious and philosophical diversity is expanding,” Mr. Speckhardt said, in a CNN report. “While humanists have been saying for years that one can be good without a god, hearing this from the leader of the Catholic Church is quite heartening.”

The Vatican, on Thursday, was forced to issue a statement of clarification. The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a spokesman for the Vatican, said those who have knowledge of the Catholic Church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her,” CNN reported. He also said that “every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.”

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... z2UETXbxWw

[MG Man]

"You cannot thank an omnipotent "God" for saving some people in a disastrous accident without blaming him for abandoning the rest."-- Andrew Bain

You can't blame GOD period!

Who do atheists blame? We can only blame ourselves or no one at all!!

we don't blame anyone
we accept that sometimes shyt happens..............live in tornado alley, and odds are you gonna end up in Oz
Live in Asia and odds are you gonna get monsooned

[Habit7]

Well for those who doubted when I said Roman Catholic teaching is not within the orthodox realm of Christianity, here is your sign.

The Apostle Peter, who Roman Catholics believe their papal line descends from, said:
let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:10-12

[Daran]

Well for those who doubted when I said Roman Catholic teaching is not within the orthodox realm of Christianity, here is your sign.

The Apostle Peter, who Roman Catholics believe their papal line descends from, said:
let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:10-12

So you're saying Hindus, Muslims etc will not be going to heaven?

[rocknrolla]

MG, Daran alluh eeen!!!!

Pope Francis suggests atheists’ good deeds gets them to heaven
By Cheryl K. Chumley
The Washington Times
Friday, May 24, 2013

Pope Francis has sparked a religious debate with comments made earlier this week confirming atheists can indeed go to heaven. Christian teaching generally holds that belief in Jesus, and not good deeds, grants eternal life.

But the pope, in a morning Mass on Wednesday, suggested that belief and faith weren’t the biggest factors. He said, CNN reported: “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ — all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone. ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist.’ But do good: We will meet one another there.”

The comments were welcomed by Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the American Humanist Association.

“I gather from this statement that his view of the worlds’ religious and philosophical diversity is expanding,” Mr. Speckhardt said, in a CNN report. “While humanists have been saying for years that one can be good without a god, hearing this from the leader of the Catholic Church is quite heartening.”

The Vatican, on Thursday, was forced to issue a statement of clarification. The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a spokesman for the Vatican, said those who have knowledge of the Catholic Church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her,” CNN reported. He also said that “every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.”

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... z2UETXbxWw

not completely. even tho it is true that an atheist can also access the heavenly realms, from my encounters with such ppl there is a common problem they all face. they may not have the divine protection in those realms.

they could get in because as i defended b4.. being atheist doesnt mean ur evil and can be a quite good natured person.. even more so than a christian or other religious person. but the major points they gain is in the fact that even tho they dont believe in punishment for wickedness, they choose to do the right thing thru some sort of 'common sense' EVEN THO they dont have a ruler over their head. this is enough to get them into the heavenly realms but may not have the fortified protection of one who acknowledges and praises the creator of all the magnificence they witness there. but access is enough for them to eventually change their perspective and acknowledge the Supreme Being.

[Habit7]

So you're saying Hindus, Muslims etc will not be going to heaven?

Who cares what I say? The Bible, which proclaims itself to be word of Almighty God, says you cannot get to heaven but by the atoning work of Jesus Christ being applied to one's life. And that can only be evident if one has repented of their sin and put their trust in Jesus, constantly, until they die.

"You cannot thank an omnipotent "God" for saving some people in a disastrous accident without blaming him for abandoning the rest."-- Andrew Bain

You can't blame GOD period!
Who do atheists blame? We can only blame ourselves or no one at all!!

Well actually the Bible teaches differently.

Isaiah 45:6b-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.

God is the author of all our well-being and calamity. He being eternal prefect and just, can judge His fallen world whenever He wants while blessing and showing mercy on the same fallen creation.

What you as a professed atheist needs to do, is argue why a just and perfect God, should not judge you a guilt and imperfect human being and that you should live forever.

[Dizzy28]

MG, Daran alluh eeen!!!!

Pope Francis suggests atheists’ good deeds gets them to heaven
By Cheryl K. Chumley
The Washington Times
Friday, May 24, 2013

Pope Francis has sparked a religious debate with comments made earlier this week confirming atheists can indeed go to heaven. Christian teaching generally holds that belief in Jesus, and not good deeds, grants eternal life.

But the pope, in a morning Mass on Wednesday, suggested that belief and faith weren’t the biggest factors. He said, CNN reported: “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ — all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone. ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist.’ But do good: We will meet one another there.”

The comments were welcomed by Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the American Humanist Association. “I gather from this statement that his view of the worlds’ religious and philosophical diversity is expanding.....

not completely. even tho it is true that an atheist can also access the heavenly realms, from my encounters with such ppl there is a common problem they all face. they may not have the divine protection in those realms.

they could get in because as i defended b4.. being atheist doesnt mean ur evil and can be a quite good natured person.. even more so than a christian or other religious person. but the major points they gain is in the fact that even tho they dont believe in punishment for wickedness, they choose to do the right thing thru some sort of 'common sense' EVEN THO they dont have a ruler over their head. this is enough to get them into the heavenly realms but may not have the fortified protection of one who acknowledges and praises the creator of all the magnificence they witness there. but access is enough for them to eventually change their perspective and acknowledge the Supreme Being.

Why would you need protection in Heaven?

[rocknrolla]

not in heaven^

there are other places other than heaven in the spiritual world. some of them house negative or otherwise unappealing entities. atheists ive spoken to whove managed to make it very far through meditation and way of life have complained to me that they end up in such places regularly and have not actually seen heaven. im going on their accounts, tho i have seen such a place,... briefly. i didnt stick around when i realized that is where i was appearing. i have been to heaven a couple times tho. everything there is beautiful and pleasant.

[stev]

ent God said to kill anyone who worships another God / religion?.....why u religious guys are not obeying?


edit: or at least that is what i read in the bible and saw posted in here....correct me if i am wrong plz.

edit 2: this statement was wrong...see below.

[Habit7]

you are wrong, well at least wrt the Bible

[stev]

you are wrong, well at least wrt the Bible

my apologies...i made a mistake....it was:

Kill those who work on the Sabbath - Exodus 35:1-3


what about that?

[Habit7]

Well I know that you are fairly new to the discussion (at least since I joined it) so I will quote a prior posting

Christians interpret the OT through the NT, so if the NT doesn't reiterate a OT principle in the NT we don't carry it over. That being generally said, it is important to note that in the Pentateuch there are moral laws (eg 10 commandments), ceremonial laws (for sacrificial system) and the federal law (to govern the Israelites). With the exception of the Sabbath, all the moral law is repeated in the NT and we follow it. The ceremonial law was done away with as Christ is the once and for all sacrifice and the federal law doesn't apply to any of us now because we don't live in pre-first century theocratic Israel. However Christians study these abrogated laws to understand the character of God but we don't practise them.

So your example of Exodus 35:1-3 falls in the category of the federal law. This law that required capital punishment, was specific to the Jews, living in the Jewish land only at that time. Since the theocratic Jewish nation has come to an end since 70 A.D. and Jesus announced that the Sabbath day rest pointed to Him, and those who put their trust in Him will receive the eternal rest from work in salvific relationship with Him, the Sabbath day rest is not observed by Christians in the same sense as it was in the Old Testament.

[megadoc1]

MG, Daran alluh eeen!!!!

Pope Francis suggests atheists’ good deeds gets them to heaven
By Cheryl K. Chumley
The Washington Times
Friday, May 24, 2013

Pope Francis has sparked a religious debate with comments made earlier this week confirming atheists can indeed go to heaven. Christian teaching generally holds that belief in Jesus, and not good deeds, grants eternal life.

But the pope, in a morning Mass on Wednesday, suggested that belief and faith weren’t the biggest factors. He said, CNN reported: “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ — all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone. ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist.’ But do good: We will meet one another there.”

The comments were welcomed by Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the American Humanist Association.

“I gather from this statement that his view of the worlds’ religious and philosophical diversity is expanding,” Mr. Speckhardt said, in a CNN report. “While humanists have been saying for years that one can be good without a god, hearing this from the leader of the Catholic Church is quite heartening.”

The Vatican, on Thursday, was forced to issue a statement of clarification. The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a spokesman for the Vatican, said those who have knowledge of the Catholic Church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her,” CNN reported. He also said that “every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.”

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... z2UETXbxWw

well look at that! not even time in purgatory.......

[stev]

thanks Habit7. understood.


dis dam ting too confusing. lol

[Habit7]

It is confusing if you get 'bumper sticker' information from websites whose intent is to poke holes at Christianity, but no problem, we are fair game. After 2000 yrs there has never been an inconsistency that can be claimed against the Bible hence the reason why our Western forefathers saw it as a foundation for life and practise.

However when I point out inconsistencies in atheism and Islam I get endless beat up, no answer, and a disappearance from the thread of the proponents until the topic changes.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

So you're saying Hindus, Muslims etc will not be going to heaven?

Who cares what I say? The Bible, which proclaims itself to be word of Almighty God, says you cannot get to heaven but by the atoning work of Jesus Christ being applied to one's life.

The Gita and Qur'an also proclaim themselves to be the word of Almighty God and they say differently.

[Daran]