TSTT WiMax 4G/Hotspot and HSPA+ Thread

[rocknrolla]

find a way to throttle xxx dloads cause with 'free wifi' to the masses.....its gonna be a free for all....

check 'unlimited data' agreements with IPs since it may be unlimited based on certain stipulations...in addition to what Duane was pointing out earlier

i will look into it. but they cant stop users from sharing wifi house to house or utilizing large scale networks to feed multiple clients imo. its the same and im sure a lawyer would agree falls under private usage allowance. if i have a company with 10,000 employees on both lan and mobile, there is no law to stop how i distribute my connection and how many ip addresses i assign. and any such law should be questioned by the entire country.

the introduction of the linux server also gives full mac address control, monitoring, and bandwidth cap/throttling of devices that may seem to abuse the service as well as extra security and defense tools.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

really, it wouldnt be MY service unless their were subscription fees and monthly recurring fees etc. it rather would be OUR service and we'd take care of it like our own because it IS ours'. it's non-profit so aint nuthin for them to get if they want to sue. dont even have to register a company name to get it done.

yes but if you are saying

would have to work on plotting the grid, attracting investors etc. maybe can get a couple companies to donate towards a couple residential 100mb lines from flow.

How will you get corporate donors without having a name? You would need to register something, an association, NGO etc in order to approach the entities you want to get "donations" from.

Also at the end of the day you are taking TSTT, FLOW, Greendot etc data and saring it on a much larger scale than would constitute "residential/home use". I am pretty sure there is already something in place in their Terms Of Service contract to prevent such advertised sharing.

have you checked TATT terms and conditions? Are you sure they won't restrict this?

i believe the feasibility study is now completed.

without factoring the legality?

[Daran]

guess what i just found. as i suspected, just located a consumer device that can extend the range of each wifi signal up to a 50km radius. and it only cost $60 usd per device. sufficiently reducing the number of nodes required whilst increasing the coverage area in a totally affordable price range.

i believe the feasibility study is now completed.

where else is this solution used effectively?

all over the world. im looking at a few different devices right now. but this typical setup using this technology is being used all over europe/usa and asia. just depends on which brand u go with and the cost of different solutions vary. but they are also using it to implement ip camera cctv using wifi over vast distances. linking sites is as easy as 123 and the mesh setup with multiple internet nodes pooling creates redundancy and resilience for the network. this can 100% work based on the info im getting right now. could power the entire eastwest corridor mainroad and bus route with 2 strategically placed nodes with a budget of just $6000 ttd. rough numbers but.. nowhere near millions.

I'll tell you a few problems with this.

One, Wifi (at least 802.11) will have some timing issues over such distances, this is why the 802.16 standard was developed. However, it can work when configured correctly. You will also need to know that you will need a very powerful transmitter to broadcast that distance, which of course TATT will never give you permission. By broadcasting at that power you will interfere with everyone's 2.4 GHz devices. However, if using point to point antennas (microwave) you can do this, although this requires having line of sight to each tx/rx.

Secondly, if you knew anything about wifi you'd realize that 2 'strategically' placed nodes will NEVER EVER have the capacity for your application. A cell site can server up to 32km and sometimes more, why you think TSTT & Digicel have almost 500 cell towers each? For fun? no, it's to create more capacity.

To do what you want to do without any infrastructure will cost you in the millions.

well actually it can be setup using 5ghz and not 2.4ghz to avoid interference. yes it runs on standard microwave tech. im actually reading up the tech today for the first time. not that its much different from the old idea i had in mind so ive got to nail in some details definitely.

also ur right about the 2 nodes for E/W corridor because of the assignment of ip addresses, but the point i was drawing was that internet would be available for at least 2 subnets worth of users along the entire E/W corridor without losing connection and having a reasonably fast connect as well. implementing more subnets cheaply i have an idea for but have to do some more research. as it is now, the amount of nodes is directly related to the amount of subnets. so i just need to provide subnetting enough for say 1million users.. much less in fact cuz 1 million ppl is the whole scattered population of Trinidad so there wont be that many ppl using one node at any time, unless the whole country goes to port of spain at the same time for some reason. im thinking a linux server to handle the dhcp and multiple subnets and let the device rely on linux to handle all the ip address assignments. linux is free, just need to build a lil pc for say $5k and configure it up right.

but trinidad is a small country. i cant say that enough. these projects are cheese pie out there to some whose cities are larger than the whole of trinidad.

between making enough available subnets and the getting permission to use an option other than microwave i would say i cant see any other foreseeable problem with implementation.

5Ghz is unliscenced band as well, you will get and cause interference at high power outputs. Also, again TATT has a restriction on ALL free spectrum power outputs, your microwave network won't suffer, but distributing it on a wide scale area will be impossible as you're only allowed up to 28dBm on 2.4/5.8GHz bands.

Also, you thinking only in terms of data comms, don't forget the radio and physical spectrum limitations you will encounter. That is why to cover the bus route alone (which btw 802.11 won't work once you're moving) you will at least one hundred access points.

[rocknrolla]

well yeah, the cost and capability feasibility is high. so is on to the next step from there. ah find like yuh rushin meh now lol.

but yeah something will be organised, we'd have tech's registered as official service techs including police background checks (have that). plenty thing i could structure and do from here. but moving forward, dont think either isp could complain.. even if it means we have to sign up for the business package to avoid throttling by flow for overusage. still have to do real calculations and estimates of load and average users per node. alot. the thing now start. ah find allyuh cud help by doing some research and hitting me back up with info instead of trying to make me organise a nationwide project in just a few hrs while at work.

personally, my next step will be to acquire the devices and set it up for my own personal use with a shorter range set, configure the linux server and test out all the dhcp assignments for internet connectivity and take it from there. the rest is just planning and legal consultation. which im hoping to also acquire freely.

then to acquire a team to actually discuss and gather interests, node volunteers with highspeed connections, might find some 100mb volunteers if we lucky etc and start planning the implementation. i myself might upgrade to 100mb soon. this still being researched and thanks for all the questions and suggestions, they are helping to discover the overall feasibility of the idea.

[ismithx]

please do explain to us how two nodes will support dozens of users. where i work we use high grade stuff and they can only take up to 50-something clients

[rocknrolla]

what devices are u using there? ill have to check if there is a limit to client connections but i would hope there isnt. with the linux box as a router handling dhcp requests on multiple subnets and assigning ip's i hope to circumvent any limitations of the hardware.

ill need to get some figures if possible about the average number of users utilizing the mobile internet service along the eastwest corridor. or maybe someone can give an estimate? im going to try to work with 25,000 as a starting number. even if that means 5 nodes of 5000 users each along the way.

still consulting with the ceo of a company in canada that does the installations on a large scale. so ill have alot more info on the capabilities and limitations later on.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ what incentive would you have for a company looking to come on board with donations or a 100MB or higher flow connection?

[rocknrolla]

guess what i just found. as i suspected, just located a consumer device that can extend the range of each wifi signal up to a 50km radius. and it only cost $60 usd per device. sufficiently reducing the number of nodes required whilst increasing the coverage area in a totally affordable price range.

i believe the feasibility study is now completed.

where else is this solution used effectively?

all over the world. im looking at a few different devices right now. but this typical setup using this technology is being used all over europe/usa and asia. just depends on which brand u go with and the cost of different solutions vary. but they are also using it to implement ip camera cctv using wifi over vast distances. linking sites is as easy as 123 and the mesh setup with multiple internet nodes pooling creates redundancy and resilience for the network. this can 100% work based on the info im getting right now. could power the entire eastwest corridor mainroad and bus route with 2 strategically placed nodes with a budget of just $6000 ttd. rough numbers but.. nowhere near millions.

I'll tell you a few problems with this.

One, Wifi (at least 802.11) will have some timing issues over such distances, this is why the 802.16 standard was developed. However, it can work when configured correctly. You will also need to know that you will need a very powerful transmitter to broadcast that distance, which of course TATT will never give you permission. By broadcasting at that power you will interfere with everyone's 2.4 GHz devices. However, if using point to point antennas (microwave) you can do this, although this requires having line of sight to each tx/rx.

Secondly, if you knew anything about wifi you'd realize that 2 'strategically' placed nodes will NEVER EVER have the capacity for your application. A cell site can server up to 32km and sometimes more, why you think TSTT & Digicel have almost 500 cell towers each? For fun? no, it's to create more capacity.

To do what you want to do without any infrastructure will cost you in the millions.

well actually it can be setup using 5ghz and not 2.4ghz to avoid interference. yes it runs on standard microwave tech. im actually reading up the tech today for the first time. not that its much different from the old idea i had in mind so ive got to nail in some details definitely.

also ur right about the 2 nodes for E/W corridor because of the assignment of ip addresses, but the point i was drawing was that internet would be available for at least 2 subnets worth of users along the entire E/W corridor without losing connection and having a reasonably fast connect as well. implementing more subnets cheaply i have an idea for but have to do some more research. as it is now, the amount of nodes is directly related to the amount of subnets. so i just need to provide subnetting enough for say 1million users.. much less in fact cuz 1 million ppl is the whole scattered population of Trinidad so there wont be that many ppl using one node at any time, unless the whole country goes to port of spain at the same time for some reason. im thinking a linux server to handle the dhcp and multiple subnets and let the device rely on linux to handle all the ip address assignments. linux is free, just need to build a lil pc for say $5k and configure it up right.

but trinidad is a small country. i cant say that enough. these projects are cheese pie out there to some whose cities are larger than the whole of trinidad.

between making enough available subnets and the getting permission to use an option other than microwave i would say i cant see any other foreseeable problem with implementation.

5Ghz is unliscenced band as well, you will get and cause interference at high power outputs. Also, again TATT has a restriction on ALL free spectrum power outputs, your microwave network won't suffer, but distributing it on a wide scale area will be impossible as you're only allowed up to 28dBm on 2.4/5.8GHz bands.

Also, you thinking only in terms of data comms, don't forget the radio and physical spectrum limitations you will encounter. That is why to cover the bus route alone (which btw 802.11 won't work once you're moving) you will at least one hundred access points.

still 100 AP's i think is doable. just need 100 ppl anywhere between bussroute and main road, would shorten the power output required and the distance. same essids would allow almost seamless roaming.

to say im 100% about the legality, no im not a lawyer. but that will be looked into. the bottom line im standing on is that these are regular consumer products, already implemented by various home users and companies. i know cuz i worked for a company that sold them a good few years ago and still do. but their versions were based on old tech. this new tech offers consumers higher coverage areas and is legal to implement all over the world by users and organisations.. except in trinidad??

i not saying they wont try to block and deny everyone the ability to utilize their own private internet service to force everyone to buy their overpriced plans, but i waiting to see how they gone do that. cuz some companies i know down here will have to take down their existing long distance APs which is the same technology being used in the same way. and have been doing so for years.

also there is the capability to scan and avoid channels in use in realtime to avoid interference. tech has come a long way to the consumer.

[rocknrolla]

^ what incentive would you have for a company looking to come on board with donations or a 100MB or higher flow connection?

ill have to think about that. for now all i can think of is free advertising and public credit for their contribution to the service so that the entire nation will know they were involved in supporting and delivering this service to the public. if u ask me, a project like this should get the support of the government itself once proven to be feasible.

[rocknrolla]

for now im just the guy with an idea that seems feasible. still have alot of research to do which is really one of my areas of specialization. the project could use the input and advice of a range of skillsets from legal to marketting and of course networking techs. if u have any skills ud like to offer or think might be helpful to the project pls pm me. ill be making a setup for my personal use and testing and will take it from there.

have some reading up to do.

[M_2NR]

This needs a new thread though.

[rocknrolla]

indeed. ill make one as soon as i have some more complete info.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ what incentive would you have for a company looking to come on board with donations or a 100MB or higher flow connection?

ill have to think about that. for now all i can think of is free advertising and public credit for their contribution to the service so that the entire nation will know they were involved in supporting and delivering this service to the public. if u ask me, a project like this should get the support of the government itself once proven to be feasible.

but you said

there is no business, and so, no conflict of interest.

advertising is big business. It is commercial activity.

If you start offering free internet islandwide using the available bandwidth from TSTT, FLOW etc you will be cutting out a portion of income from these companies since they will now be selling less packages, less 4G, less broadband at home, less Blink. That is taking away BIG tax dollars from the Gov't. Your service is not generating any tax revenue, much less to make back up for that loss.

The gov't also owns majority share in TSTT, a provider you will not only be competing with, but taking bandwidth from. While the gov't wants to provide islandwide internet in the future, this is not the way they plan to go about it!

but i think it would be able to provide a free highspeed wifi internet alternative to tstt.

but who's bandwidth are you using, not their's and FLOW's?

Also at the end of the day you might think you are offering a free service, but someone has to pay for it. Even if you get past legal issues, TATT and being throttled making your service near useless, if you are not paying for all that data then the people who are, are going to want compensation.

[rocknrolla]

ok what about setting up a non-profit organisation and having users register to be added to the network.. for free. in effect, each member would be both an employee and a shareholder in their own private internetworked service?

i dont think u understand what im saying. as ppl on the ground, i think that tstt can offer their service at a more reasonable price considering all its shortcomings. if this project is feasible it will be proof of that. how exactly are they planning to provide internet service nationwide? so far so good? the benefits would be to the country at large. and noone has to stop their dataplan. the point being.. internet access including mobile should be so affordable that almost everyone can get an unlimited package. if it cant be afforded then it is not ACCESSIBLE to those who cant afford it, and that could be a good majority. this project makes it accessible. call it poor man net or what, ppl will be able to do at least simple tasks like check their email, facebook, web browsing and other light forms of usage. it isnt for online gaming etc. it can be a good substitute until tstt and the government get their act together.

at the end of the day, if i run a wifi router and 100 of my friends can access it what is the difference. if i run a site to site link, joining 2 wifi networks which my friends can access using my bandwidth what is the difference?

it is like u are saying, we dont care who cant afford it.. it is accessible by our standards, and the ppl are not allowed to create their own alternative net?

so we put food out sell, we dont care if u can afford it or not, starve and dead, but u are not allowed to plant ur own food and feed urself?

let that ring out. u studying tax dollars when they let men run wey out d country with must be 30Bn or more, stifling the economy, assist in causing inflation and get away. now we have to pay for them and still paying. everything going up and pay cah go up never. if we get back the clico and udecott money this squeezing of the population will not be necessary.

i am tired of paying for substandard trinidad goods and services while overpriced. that is why i import EVERYTHING. ill support local when they get their act together. they give back the maxi men they city gate fare, price didnt go back down. but when the fare was introduced they raise it by a dollar not so? what it is going on? let me tell u.. economic rape!

there are alot of ppl without internet in this country, and internet brings information. information that will benefit the country as a whole, raising education standards with the wealth of knowledge and information out there. at the end of the day, i cud link myself u know. if is just to setup a link for myself i can more than well do that single-handedly. so deny access to the country if u want.. but how it go look.

[rocknrolla]

look at flow's broadband service and packages. look at the offset in pricing vs blink. it's ridiculous. i switched to flow a couple years ago and i cudnt be happier after near 20 years of tstt. my internet no longer drops everytime rain fall, and i mean everytime. i used to use it to predict rain falling with my friends. its a shame flow doesnt provide a 2g/3g service and well i think that the CEO in flow is a rather reasonable person having read up a bit on him. i would probably approach them directly about helping and advising on how to proceed.

if flow allows me to do it knowing all the implications and intentions THEN tstt would surely be left in the dust with their 2.5g cuz then ill have leeway to go all out. a wifi service wont hamper flow sales since they are cable. so that is an option i can put on the table.

what tstt should do is make the 2g free cuz u cud only do light browsing on it. and leave the higher 3g for those who need to pay for higher more luxurious 3g service. i dont know, somebody might say they cant afford it.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ but what are you bringing to the table with FLOW?
you've already stated your idea here, so why can't they just take it and run with it?

seriously though i think you should get in touch with TATT and find out if you can do what you plan to do

[rocknrolla]

you've already stated your idea here, so why can't they just take it and run with it?

that may not be such a bad thing. they still wouldnt know the equipment i plan on using. theyd have to do their own research. research id have already completed. maybe i cud put that on the table. but if they did do it themselves.. hmmmm. i have a feeling the service would be to better standards than what's currently available.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ if they did implement islandwide wifi, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be free. To offer it for free would be bad business sense.

[rocknrolla]

^ reasonably priced is acceptable. and flow has a reasonable price for a reliable service. if they keep that same reasonable mindset to the business venture together with their current standard of delivery then i might not mind paying for it.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

to be profitable they would adopt a per MB costing structure similar to Digicel and Bmobile.
bmobile currently offers 80c per MB
any competitor would come in close to that.

[rocknrolla]

to be profitable they would adopt a per MB costing structure similar to Digicel and Bmobile.
bmobile currently offers 80c per MB
any competitor would come in close to that.

well i dont want to compete with anybody. i would like to see everyone getting internet access even if it is a very slow connection. a 56k cap per device or something. doesnt matter. but it is high time and beyond and backward time that this little tiny dirtball in the ocean get full coverage for internet access. we shouldnt have no excuses about who living in the bush. this country is very rich and very small. tell them stop chinksin and digging out ppl eye.

[Daran]

I still think you are overestimating the range of wifi, and remember you can transmit as high as possible but I clients will always be limited by their uplink power. When I said 100APs for the bus route I meant for the roadway alone. I if you wanna cover even 25% of resident you'll need thousands of APs. That is why wifi and wimesh networks are never used like this they are meant to cover small high traffic areas and not for mass blanket coverage.

I'm not trying to fight u down, and just trying to let you know the realities of what you're proposing.

[DJ Q]

Also, weather will severely affect your range.
Your idea is nice, but it's far-fetched.

I'm not being a "negative-nancy" but here's a few things that came to mind that I believe you may have overlooked:

- Personally, I can tell you, if there's free island wide wifi, why should I pay FLOW?

- You mentioned same SSID's = almost seamless transitions. Well that's different to having access points. If everyone is pitching in by sharing their internet, what happens to the person that limits the number of nodes or (for some reason) specifies a different IP scheme? And speaking of IP schemes, the chance for IP conflicts with this is very high IF the broadcasting access points are leasing the addresses.

- You mentioned a linux server to handle subnetting... that means that you're wiring to every node? I'm losing sight on whether your goal is to have multiple signal repeaters or if you want many houses sharing bandwidth. Because I'm seeing either a country wide WAN (which will make you an ISP) or a country wide VPN that handles all of this.

I have more points... but busy today.

[Daran]

It's not possible with Wifi 802 dot anything.....you need to start looking at 802.16

[rocknrolla]

Also, weather will severely affect your range.
Your idea is nice, but it's far-fetched.

I'm not being a "negative-nancy" but here's a few things that came to mind that I believe you may have overlooked:

- Personally, I can tell you, if there's free island wide wifi, why should I pay FLOW?

- You mentioned same SSID's = almost seamless transitions. Well that's different to having access points. If everyone is pitching in by sharing their internet, what happens to the person that limits the number of nodes or (for some reason) specifies a different IP scheme? And speaking of IP schemes, the chance for IP conflicts with this is very high IF the broadcasting access points are leasing the addresses.

- You mentioned a linux server to handle subnetting... that means that you're wiring to every node? I'm losing sight on whether your goal is to have multiple signal repeaters or if you want many houses sharing bandwidth. Because I'm seeing either a country wide WAN (which will make you an ISP) or a country wide VPN that handles all of this.

I have more points... but busy today.

because it wont be fast enough to enjoy high bandwidth applications. utube videos etc might work but after a good wait for the buffering. it is just access is the objective.. and well, u still need flow to supply the main bandwidth from a cable line to share to wifi not so? cud increase the number of 100mb lines bought from flow.

APs can be set up to do a handover using the same essids and configuration. it all then depends on ur subnetting and dhcp configurations to handle connecting users.

and finally, ur overlooking the fact that u dont know what devices im referring to and their capability and also how they are currently implemented. it might take some thought. but it is doable. there are more than one way to setup dhcp across multiple subnets in a linux server. some of them do not require multiple network cards. remember every node is interconnected so all that would be needed would be one server with enough hardware resources to handle the load.

[Rooki3]

all this cause a man doh wanna pay for 4G

[rocknrolla]

It's not possible with Wifi 802 dot anything.....you need to start looking at 802.16

i disagree. this is a very small country. in larger countries this entire country can be viewed as a small city or even a town. but we'll see when my research is completed and ill know alot more once i have my own personal setup.

it's being looked into. i admit i tend to be overly ambitious with my research and project equipment costs. the overall cost to get it done on a very sturdy network may be more than $3000ttd per main node. but once i reveal the technology and where and how it has been implemented u may understand more. either way.. i have a ridiculous level set for the nationwide project equipment cost of $100,000ttd for full coverage up to 1/4 mile off the coast. implementation would be on a volunteer basis by registered techs. please remember it is a sort of charity. to say it would compete with local isps is a gross mis-statement and exaggeration imo. u certainly will not be able to voip on it etc.

also please catch up on the convo before asking questions. it seems i am answering some questions more than once.

[rocknrolla]

all this cause a man doh wanna pay for 4G

well for me its actually fun. i always take up new projects that seem challenging and undoable and get them done.

but anyway.. u all can get back on topic of the thread. ill make a new thread soon enough to discuss further.

[Daran]

It's not possible with Wifi 802 dot anything.....you need to start looking at 802.16

i disagree. this is a very small country. in larger countries this entire country can be viewed as a small city or even a town. but we'll see when my research is completed and ill know alot more once i have my own personal setup.

it's being looked into. i admit i tend to be overly ambitious with my research and project equipment costs. the overall cost to get it done on a very sturdy network may be more than $3000ttd per main node. but once i reveal the technology and where and how it has been implemented u may understand more. either way.. i have a ridiculous level set for the nationwide project equipment cost of $100,000ttd for full coverage up to 1/4 mile off the coast. implementation would be on a volunteer basis by registered techs. please remember it is a sort of charity. to say it would compete with local isps is a gross mis-statement and exaggeration imo. u certainly will not be able to voip on it etc.

also please catch up on the convo before asking questions. it seems i am answering some questions more than once.

Hoss, i explained that each network carrier have around 500 cell sites, and still plenty coverage lacking. You are dreaming if you think you will ever meet the coverage requirements.

Uplink power on user's devices is a HUGE limiting factor when it comes to coverage. Blast all you want, if my laptop on sending signal 100m then that's as far as it will go.

Your idea requires, well placed high mounted APs. And even then you won't have indoor coverage without boosters.

How you expect to reach users without thousands upon thousands of access points. I've heard from a Cisco rep that TSTT has hundreds of bzones right now and look how limited their coverage is.
Cisco was also asked to do a study on providing Wifi for all of Port of Spain (including woodbrook, savanah). But the project was rejected as the cost exceeded $10M US.....and that was re-using TSTT towers, poles, fiber etc. You have none of this and don't expect to get it free either.

Your idea is very nice, but a lot of the more experienced folks here are giving you the reality of this plan and it's not a data comm DHCP IP issue (that can be resolved), it's a coverage and access issue.

In addition, once the ISP's realize what you're doing, they will terminate your contract. talk done. you will need to by bandwidth from them whole sale and pay for fiber leasing costs.

[rocknrolla]

$10mn usd to cover POS? no way. bet i can beat that. u know how much is 10 million usd? but then again im sure they had to factor in labour cost of implementation n stuff but still that REAL HIGH. if is POS this tech can DEFINITELY do it in under 10mn usd.

pos will be much easier and cheaper than 10mn because as u mentioned above. there wont be any uplink issues with mobile devices access range . i hear what u saying with that. if i can blast 50km but my device can only connect up to 100m then it may not be able to talk back.

with 10mn usd i cud line all the streets of POS with APs and still have a few mill to spare.. lol. what would tstt say is an acceptable budget to wifi-up POS with APs? ill see if i can put something together that fits within that. i often find that much of what government pays for with taxpayers money is heavily overpriced and they pay it. but i dont get caught up in capitalist vulturism.. i get all my stuff cheap cheap cheap by thorough research.

and yes im done with the old topic on this thread. regardless of what most say, i will be looking into it in my own way. this is my hobby.. cracking and finding solutions to challenging and seemingly unsolvable problems. so just leave me be to do my thing. just enjoying myself gaining knowledge. im not disregarding anything anyone says and am looking into all suggestions.