The Religion Discussion

[rocknrolla]

^^^You need to ask a Jehovah Witness about that only 144000.


The fate of those who have sinned is judgement in Hell, lack of belief in Christ is just one of those sins.

The JW claim that they ALONE understand the true meaning of the bible. They say that the word used for HELL in the bible, does not really mean hell.

Hell doesn't exist according to the Bible!!??

many ppl think salvation is an illusion, a metaphor, or otherwise something of fantasy or imagination with no grounding in this reality. they claim salvation, they claim to have seen the light.. but they are speaking metaphorically because they have not actually seen the White light of Divinity. of the Holy Spirit bestowed upon them they have not experienced.

they are mere scholars with no direct access to heaven.

how then can u learn from unenlightened men the true understanding of the word? secondhand knowledge is a problem.. like the experiment where u pass a message along and by the time it gets to the last person the message is warped in all sorts of ways from the original...

if u want the truth, ull have to get it from the horse's mouth.

salvation is not fixed! u must attain salvation and then receive eternal life. u must attain the seal of God, which is synonymous with the Holy Spirit descending upon u and opening ur mind to the mysteries of existence.

now let's just say 144000 is a literal number, which i don't think it is. however, how many ppl would be truly saved before judgement day. even if we dont have an exact figure, 144000 out of 7billion seems like a horrible failure of the race. it also says that the majority are wrong...

so if u find urself in the majority, u should know that ur in the wrong place and on the wrong side. God's chosen, like God, will have no religion but God. they will have access to the kingdom of Heaven at will. and be able to wake up and go to work the next day or whatever it is they were going to do in this reality. their souls are made eternal, having proven their dedication to God and his assigned mission for humanity. having passed many tribulations of the spirit to prove their heart's purity and love and best wishes for all of mankind. they are incorruptible by God, and in his eyes will be without sin.

in the end times God will send his angels to guard those chosen. they cannot be touched by any force within this world. not even the devil himself has permission to harm these individuals.

now that sounds like salvation to me!

[AdamB]

Is it just me or when you read AdamB's posts in your mind it comes across like the words are screaming at you

It is just you, some words are enlarged, bold, underlined or in "quotations", for emphasis only...to draw your attention to those particular words.

Or maybe it's the holy spirit shouting at you...trying to tell you to TAKE HEED!!

[Habit7]

He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. (3:3)

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. (5:46)


and...


And certainly were messengers denied before you, but they were patient over [the effects of] denial, and they were harmed until Our victory came to them. And none can alter the words of Allah . And there has certainly come to you some information about the [previous] messengers. (6:34)

For them are good tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. No change is there in the words of Allah . That is what is the great attainment. (10:64)


yet...

THIS IS HOW THE BIBLE HAS BEEN TAMPERED WITH AND CHANGED....HOW THEN WILL THEY BE GUIDED TO THE TRUTH!!

[AdamB]

many ppl think salvation is an illusion, a metaphor, or otherwise something of fantasy or imagination with no grounding in this reality. they claim salvation, they claim to have seen the light.. but they are speaking metaphorically because they have not actually seen the White light of Divinity. of the Holy Spirit bestowed upon them they have not experienced.they are mere scholars with no direct access to heaven.

how then can u learn from unenlightened men the true understanding of the word? secondhand knowledge is a problem.. like the experiment where u pass a message along and by the time it gets to the last person the message is warped in all sorts of ways from the original...

if u want the truth, ull have to get it from the horse's mouth.

salvation is not fixed! u must attain salvation and then receive eternal life. u must attain the seal of God, which is synonymous with the Holy Spirit descending upon u and opening ur mind to the mysteries of existence.

now let's just say 144000 is a literal number, which i don't think it is. however, how many ppl would be truly saved before judgement day. even if we dont have an exact figure, 144000 out of 7billion seems like a horrible failure of the race. it also says that the majority are wrong...

so if u find urself in the majority, u should know that ur in the wrong place and on the wrong side. God's chosen, like God, will have no religion but God. they will have access to the kingdom of Heaven at will. and be able to wake up and go to work the next day or whatever it is they were going to do in this reality. their souls are made eternal, having proven their dedication to God and his assigned mission for humanity. having passed many tribulations of the spirit to prove their heart's purity and love and best wishes for all of mankind. they are incorruptible by God, and in his eyes will be without sin.

in the end times God will send his angels to guard those chosen. they cannot be touched by any force within this world. not even the devil himself has permission to harm these individuals.
now that sounds like salvation to me!

Many claims with nothing to substantiate, just opinions.

The question has to be asked:

WHAT IS YOUR CLAIM TO FAME??

[Kasey]

AdamB's 'Netiquette' was a topic discussed before when Dspike was in the discussion. Using caps, bold, and bright colours makes him feel dominant and hence his uses of it. He cannot argue without the use of them. He is incapable of having a calm discussion with only normal size font, and normal colours.

[AdamB]

AdamB's 'Netiquette' was a topic discussed before when Dspike was in the discussion. Using caps, bold, and bright colours makes him feel dominant and hence his uses of it. He cannot argue without the use of them. He is incapable of having a calm discussion with only normal size font, and normal colours.

No as I said before, it is "to draw your attention to those particular words."

[bluefete]

Islam doesnt teach hate. It is all about peace. If 10, 20, 100 or 1000 muslims kill, torture etc in the name of Allah, then they are mis-guided. Are we going to continue to be silly and say well hear what, I saw a drunk christian cursing loudly on the street yesterday, therefore, all chistians are drunks? no...but once it is a muslim, he will represent ALL muslims.

the point they were making is that a Christian or person of any religion can be drunk and cursing loudly on the street. But they don't do it in the name of their religion as we've seen from these "islamic extremists" who carry out their terrible acts in the name of Islam.

The world wouldnt have the term "islamic extremists" if they didnt exist in quantity.
These are not just a few people committing heinous acts who happen to be muslim. These are people committing heinous acts and claiming it in the name of Islam. They even seem to find support from other Muslims and support in the Qur'an and Hadith where they find the verses that appear to support their acts (just like the videos of Amjen Choudary that i posted). That is completely different from some wacko just killing people for fun who happens to be of whatever religion or even happens to like football. They don't profile footballers after that do they?

the wider Muslim community needs to actively do something about these terrorists instead of claiming "a few bad apples". There is obviously a problem there that needs immediate attention!

the problem is the polytheist owned media networks

whose job is the disappearance of monotheism from earth, there sole enemy is islam, what u expect?

a book created 1400 years ago that you could use to calculate the exact age of the universe teaches of a being that exists with enormous power, his job is to prevent people from entering heaven,
in islam there is only one way you cant enter heaven, that is if u engage in shirk - idolatry and polytheism
and thats the method this being uses
among his greatest accomplishments is christianity and hinduism

his tools are polytheists, jinns and great wealth
his final challenge is islam

the challenge of islam can be readily seen any time you put on the news. You could see the tools in use

what the hell is an individual me supposed to do about this? Im just doing what im ordered to do in my allotted limited time on earth as is clearly dictated in that book with its supreme author
and terrorism and killing people is not one
a polytheist will never ever be able to understand this, he is just a tool and has to please his boss - that being

wow you really put this in the public forum!!!!!! this is what happens when ppl just don't think for themselves. These superstitious, intentionally selfish beliefs. Pal I am sure you are an adult, please stop this non-sense.
Who is 'this being' u refer too? Shaytan (Satan)!!
Where in the book you follow states that "this being" greatest accomplishment is Christianity and Hinduism?

[mamoo_pagal]

AdamB's 'Netiquette' was a topic discussed before when Dspike was in the discussion. Using caps, bold, and bright colours makes him feel dominant and hence his uses of it. He cannot argue without the use of them. He is incapable of having a calm discussion with only normal size font, and normal colours.

it is online intimidation, sticking to the "stigma" that is associated with Islamist.......he is just proving the stigma. Notice how he can casually make fun of other belief systems (in particular Christianity) but if anyone pokes fun of his (not that anyone will), well, he will go all "allahu akbar" on us. As I pointed out many moons before there is no room in muslims for humility.

[mamoo_pagal]

Islam doesnt teach hate. It is all about peace. If 10, 20, 100 or 1000 muslims kill, torture etc in the name of Allah, then they are mis-guided. Are we going to continue to be silly and say well hear what, I saw a drunk christian cursing loudly on the street yesterday, therefore, all chistians are drunks? no...but once it is a muslim, he will represent ALL muslims.

the point they were making is that a Christian or person of any religion can be drunk and cursing loudly on the street. But they don't do it in the name of their religion as we've seen from these "islamic extremists" who carry out their terrible acts in the name of Islam.

The world wouldnt have the term "islamic extremists" if they didnt exist in quantity.
These are not just a few people committing heinous acts who happen to be muslim. These are people committing heinous acts and claiming it in the name of Islam. They even seem to find support from other Muslims and support in the Qur'an and Hadith where they find the verses that appear to support their acts (just like the videos of Amjen Choudary that i posted). That is completely different from some wacko just killing people for fun who happens to be of whatever religion or even happens to like football. They don't profile footballers after that do they?

the wider Muslim community needs to actively do something about these terrorists instead of claiming "a few bad apples". There is obviously a problem there that needs immediate attention!

the problem is the polytheist owned media networks

whose job is the disappearance of monotheism from earth, there sole enemy is islam, what u expect?

a book created 1400 years ago that you could use to calculate the exact age of the universe teaches of a being that exists with enormous power, his job is to prevent people from entering heaven,
in islam there is only one way you cant enter heaven, that is if u engage in shirk - idolatry and polytheism
and thats the method this being uses
among his greatest accomplishments is christianity and hinduism

his tools are polytheists, jinns and great wealth
his final challenge is islam

the challenge of islam can be readily seen any time you put on the news. You could see the tools in use

what the hell is an individual me supposed to do about this? Im just doing what im ordered to do in my allotted limited time on earth as is clearly dictated in that book with its supreme author
and terrorism and killing people is not one
a polytheist will never ever be able to understand this, he is just a tool and has to please his boss - that being

wow you really put this in the public forum!!!!!! this is what happens when ppl just don't think for themselves. These superstitious, intentionally selfish beliefs. Pal I am sure you are an adult, please stop this non-sense.
Who is 'this being' u refer too? Shaytan (Satan)!!
Where in the book you follow states that "this being" greatest accomplishment is Christianity and Hinduism?

wham buley let the man answer the question na

[bluefete]

wham bluey let the man answer the question na

k.

[AdamB]

AdamB's 'Netiquette' was a topic discussed before when Dspike was in the discussion. Using caps, bold, and bright colours makes him feel dominant and hence his uses of it. He cannot argue without the use of them. He is incapable of having a calm discussion with only normal size font, and normal colours.

it is online intimidation, sticking to the "stigma" that is associated with Islamist.......he is just proving the stigma. Notice how he can casually make fun of other belief systems (in particular Christianity) but if anyone pokes fun of his (not that anyone will), well, he will go all "allahu akbar" on us. As I pointed out many moons before there is no room in muslims for humility.

There are many along with you two who don't bring any real substance to this "religion" discussion but you like to stick around and upset the current discussions by poking/jumping in when others are involved in a line of discussion.

Can you see the future, mamoo?

[AdamB]

wham bluey let the man answer the question na

k.

According to some christians, the Devil rules this world. Say it isn't so...

[rocknrolla]

shaytan is always working to divide, confuse and otherwise deter men from the truth and the light. weak and corrupted vessels he is easily able to utilize to achieve his goal of sowing discord.

[Habit7]

According to some christians, the Devil rules this world. Say it isn't so...

Yeah, they even believe that he can appear as an angel to deceive others, go figure...

[bluefete]

shaytan is always working to divide, confuse and otherwise deter men from the truth and the light. weak and corrupted vessels he is easily able to utilize to achieve his goal of sowing discord.

THIS!

[mamoo_pagal]

AdamB's 'Netiquette' was a topic discussed before when Dspike was in the discussion. Using caps, bold, and bright colours makes him feel dominant and hence his uses of it. He cannot argue without the use of them. He is incapable of having a calm discussion with only normal size font, and normal colours.

it is online intimidation, sticking to the "stigma" that is associated with Islamist.......he is just proving the stigma. Notice how he can casually make fun of other belief systems (in particular Christianity) but if anyone pokes fun of his (not that anyone will), well, he will go all "allahu akbar" on us. As I pointed out many moons before there is no room in muslims for humility.

There are many along with you two who don't bring any real substance to this "religion" discussion but you like to stick around and upset the current discussions by poking/jumping in when others are involved in a line of discussion.

Can you see the future, mamoo?

really??? From what I know some of the questions I posed to you never answered. You claimed it is because you don't have time to waste, but as evidence shows you just can't answer them, as well as many others. How about you go back and answer the question concerning the corruption of the bible, mega and myself asked very similar questions and yet to get a response. Atleast be honest with yourself, you spew the same junk over and over, just as you learnt it.

It is an ONLINE discussion, on a PUBLIC forum, where ANYONE can read and have an INPUT. If you want a a discussion where you and whoever can have one on one discussions (uninterrupted), that is where the PM function comes in, please learn to use the forum. Oh please don't delude yourself, we are still waiting for some "real substance" from you, not the call center loop you are stuck in. Some people has been in this thread way longer than you have and see the same rhetoric over and over again........pointless rebuttal of preconceived notions. Again go back to page one of this thread and read what op intended this thread to be............your best contribution was from yasalama, bring her back.

[rocknrolla]

iblis.. which is the name given to satan in islam, was regarded as "administrator of the earthly sky" or 'Sultan (ruler) of the earth itself.' spoken by Hazrat Abbas. known as the paternal cousin of the Prophet Muhammad himself.

ill leave that there for anyone who think it may be useful

or we can continue to insult the intelligence in other religions without realizing our own chosen faith... says the same thing.

[AdamB]

AdamB's 'Netiquette' was a topic discussed before when Dspike was in the discussion. Using caps, bold, and bright colours makes him feel dominant and hence his uses of it. He cannot argue without the use of them. He is incapable of having a calm discussion with only normal size font, and normal colours.

it is online intimidation, sticking to the "stigma" that is associated with Islamist.......he is just proving the stigma. Notice how he can casually make fun of other belief systems (in particular Christianity) but if anyone pokes fun of his (not that anyone will), well, he will go all "allahu akbar" on us. As I pointed out many moons before there is no room in muslims for humility.

There are many along with you two who don't bring any real substance to this "religion" discussion but you like to stick around and upset the current discussions by poking/jumping in when others are involved in a line of discussion.

Can you see the future, mamoo?

really??? From what I know some of the questions I posed to you never answered. You claimed it is because you don't have time to waste, but as evidence shows you just can't answer them, as well as many others. How about you go back and answer the question concerning the corruption of the bible, mega and myself asked very similar questions and yet to get a response. Atleast be honest with yourself, you spew the same junk over and over, just as you learnt it.

It is an ONLINE discussion, on a PUBLIC forum, where ANYONE can read and have an INPUT. If you want a a discussion where you and whoever can have one on one discussions (uninterrupted), that is where the PM function comes in, please learn to use the forum. Oh please don't delude yourself, we are still waiting for some "real substance" from you, not the call center loop you are stuck in. Some people has been in this thread way longer than you have and see the same rhetoric over and over again........pointless rebuttal of preconceived notions. Again go back to page one of this thread and read what op intended this thread to be............your best contribution was from yasalama, bring her back.

You're free to contribute and have your opinion but quite often, if not always, the intention is not to discuss but just to interject, to upset the discussion.

GOD intended this world not to be what it has become. That is not HIS fault, it is ours! It's what we choose to do with our free will.

It's what we make it, not just what it was intended to be, just like this thread. Has not even the name been changed?

[AdamB]

iblis.. which is the name given to satan in islam, was regarded as "administrator of the earthly sky" or 'Sultan (ruler) of the earth itself.'

ill leave that there for anyone who think it may be useful

rubbish, speaking for islam now.

Keep you opinion to yourself. Present what you claim with evidence, otherwise it's just ole talk.

[rocknrolla]

let us now venture to insult our own faith, because it disagrees with our knowledge and beliefs.

[AdamB]

He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. (3:3)

2 Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).

3 It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) with truth, confirming what came before it. And He sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel),

4 Aforetime, as a guidance to mankind. And He sent down the criterion [of judgement between right and wrong (this Qur'an)]. Truly, those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, for them there is a severe torment; and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Able of Retribution.

5 Truly, nothing is hidden from Allah, in the earth or in the heaven.

These verses don't say that the previous scriptures have been preserved.

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. (5:46)

Neither does this one...
and...


And certainly were messengers denied before you, but they were patient over [the effects of] denial, and they were harmed until Our victory came to them. And none can alter the words of Allah . And there has certainly come to you some information about the [previous] messengers. (6:34)

34 Verily, (many) Messengers were denied before you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt; till Our Help reached them, and none can alter the Words (Decisions) of Allah. Surely there has reached you the information (news) about the Messengers (before you).
This verse is not in reference to the previous scriptures. Note "Decisions" in bracket and from the tafsir of ibn kathir:
Then, victory came to them in this life, just as victory is theirs in the Hereafter. Allah said,

﴿وَلاَ مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَـتِ اللَّهِ﴾
(and none can alter the Words of Allah.) This refers to His decision that victory in this life and the Hereafter is for His believing servants.

.

For them are good tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. No change is there in the words of Allah . That is what is the great attainment. (10:64)

From the tafsir of ibn kathir:(No change can there be in the Words of Allah.) meaning, this promise doesn't change or breach or fall short. It is decreed and firm, and going to happen undoubtedly.

It refers to the promise of good tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES.
yet...

THIS IS HOW THE BIBLE HAS BEEN TAMPERED WITH AND CHANGED....HOW THEN WILL THEY BE GUIDED TO THE TRUTH!!

Habit7,
Muslims don't change the meaning of the Quran, it has been established and explained by the Mufassiroon, those who explain the meaning of the Quran. This is an entire science / field of study. They go by evidence and not feelings and heresay.

The Bible is not the Words of Allah. The Torah and the Injil refer to the revelation to Moses and Jesus respectively, in the language they were revealed. The stories / narratives put in the bible are not these revelations. The Gospel of Jesus is not any of the four in the New Testament.

You take your New Testament as BIBLE when it has no basis, it was written after the time of Jesus and not by Jesus himself and certainly there was no approval for it by Jesus.

So why not NOW accept the Quran as your criterion between right and wrong that has been preserved, pristinely? It confirms what came before and IS THE WORD OF ALLAH/GOD!

[AdamB]

let us now venture to insult our own faith, because it disagrees with our knowledge and beliefs.

Knowledge and beliefs are based on evidence in Islam. If other religions / personal beliefs are built on sand, then the rains are here!

[Habit7]

Speaking of evidence, you want to provide that untampered, Islamic Torah, Psalms and Gospel that affirms Islam?

[Sacchetto Boutique]

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. (5:46)

The quran is written in 1st person. The bible is written from many person's account of what happened. It is mentioned in the quran as "Jesus, the son of Mary" NOT "the son of God."

[Habit7]

The Book of Mormon says Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, what makes the Quran a more final revelation than the Book of Mormon?

[Dizzy28]

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. (5:46)

The quran is written in 1st person. The bible is written from many person's account of what happened. It is mentioned in the quran as "Jesus, the son of Mary" NOT "the son of God."

Writing a book using a different narrative form makes it more substantive?
Wow!!!!

[moti]

muslims are delusional and will always be.

they will deny it and hence they are delusional

[AdamB]

The Book of Mormon says Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, what makes the Quran a more final revelation than the Book of Mormon?

Put them both through the acid test and let's see...

[AdamB]

muslims are delusional and will always be.

they will deny it and hence they are delusional

Doesn't your wife (a hindu) deny your religion (christianity) and vice versa?

So who's delusional now?

[Sacchetto Boutique]

muslims are delusional and will always be.

they will deny it and hence they are delusional

U does give off real terrorist vibes