The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

Well doesn't call on us to "accept" Jesus as God, but to repent of our sins and believe in the gospel.
The rebirth a Christian receives is not conditional to their adherence to the faith rather, one who has been truly reborn adheres to the faith.
Jesus is man because throughout the Old Testament God prophesies that a Messiah will come out of the line of David, Jesus is also God because it also prophesies that God will be man's Saviour/Redeemer and He will take away their sins. Only God (in the person of the Son) can sufficiently absorb the wrath of God (in the person of the Father) and rise again.

If the Bible was changed over time then you should have some issues with the Qu'ran.
The Qu'ran says that Allah gave Moses the Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) Sura 2:87, the Psalms 4:163 and the Gospel 3:3 & 5:46. But if it has been changed then that nullifies these verses in the Qu'ran 6:34, 6:115 & 10:64. I hold back from quoting the verses to avoid the accusation of improper translation so I would allow you to review them yourself.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

no no...ok let me try to explain..
The Qur'an commands Muslims to believe in the revelations given to all of God's prophets. These prophets include Moses, David, and Jesus (peace be upon them). Muslims must believe in the revelations received by such prophets. Books associated with them are called by the names Torah, Psalms, and Gospel. Muslims, therefore believe in the original Torah, Psalms and Gospel.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

The Bible contains books by the same names and other books besides. Muslims are not commanded to believe in the other books. To be more specific, the Bible contains 66 books in the Protestant version, and 73 in the Catholic version. In the Bible, consisting 66 or 73 books, the Torah is represented as 5 books, the Psalms as 1, and the Gospel in 4 versions. This makes a total of 10 books within the Bible. Muslims are not required to believe in any more than the ten books. But that assumes that the 10 books referred to are the same as what the Qur'an refers to when the Qur'an speaks of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel.

A further check proves that these books changed contents over time although their names remained the same. To understand this concept, consider that a book like the Encyclopedia Britannica changes its contents and size several times throughout its history, yet is called by the same name. Obviously the Encyclopedia Britannica is not the same as it used to be. A closer check shows that something similar occurred with the Torah, Psalms, and Gospel.

For a long time many people believed that Moses wrote the five books called Torah in the Bible. But now it is widely known that Moses could not have written those books in their entirety. One evidence for this is that Chapter 34 of the book of Deuteronomy describes the death and burial of Moses, and how the people mourned for him after his death. Obviously, Moses did not write that passage. Biblical scholars also acknowledge that the present composition of the Psalms cannot in its entirety be traced back to David.

The Gospels is a more complex matter because the Bible contains not one but four. There is only one true Gospel which Jesus preached, but these are represented in four versions each according to a different author. The Qur'an requires Muslims to believe in the original Gospel that Jesus preached before the four versions were written. Everyone agrees that the four versions were written long after Jesus.

[Habit7]

Well the reality was that Muhammad dictated the Qu'ran after the same Bible that we have today came into existence. The Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel were the same in AD 570-632 as it is in AD 2013.

The argument you are making goes along with what is called the Redaction Criticism. It an argument that has been made and can be easily answered in following. It is wide regarded by conservative scholars that Joshua recorded the death of Moses, this in no way denies the authoritative account of Moses nor the inspiration of Joshua (the writer of the sequential book) not to mention the people of Israel who widely accepted it and affirmed its truthfulness by them being witness. The Book of Psalms does not claim total authorship to David (in fact if you read Psalms most state the author at the beginning of each Psalm) but if you are to isolate davidic Psalms, as a Muslim you will have to deal with Psalms 22, 69, 2:7-8, 89:24-25, 89:25-29 to name a few, which are all fulfilled in Christ. Likewise, the Gospel(s) which all state that Jesus was crucified by the Jews for the blasphemy of equating Himself with God.

If however, you are saying that these books, though in wide circulation at different parts of the world, were somehow all simultaneously doctored and there exist some true Islamic Torah, Psalms and the Gospel, present it us. Let us Christians and the rest of the world test it and realise we should leave the security of salvation with have in Christ and put it in the uncertainty of salvation you have in Islam .

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^^ Sacchetto Boutique, you should quote your source when you copy and paste and place the quoted piece in quotation marks. That way others can reference your quote.

[Kasey]

^^Maybe she wants people to think that she wrote it?

[nareshseep]

64793_455077201233437_293383637_n.jpg

So Spiderman equates to the God of the Bible even though Stan Lee admits to Spiderman being a fictitious character he developed to sell comic books

Hey, why don't secular humanists really live out what they believe in. If there is no God, no life after death, no accountability, etc. why are you wasting your time posting in the religious thread of a internet forum. Be a true hedonist, be a epicurean. If this is the one and only life you will live, live it up. Whatever you do in this life is just an interlude to your sure and certain death and collision with inexistence and insignificance. Squeeze every sensual joy out of life with no inhibition for morality, distant outcome and even law because if the consequences are too steep, the most that could be done to you is that you die and avoid all responsibilities.

The Bible explores this position. It says, If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" (1 Corinthians 15:32). And it says of Christians in 1 Corinthians 15:19, If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

So don't waste your time here with cheesy internet memes that could only convince the weakest of minds. Go and fulfil every fleshly desire you have...

...or you might be all totally wrong and have now steeped a greater condemnation on your life.

Habit7,

1. Both of these books are written by man
2. Both books have an imaginary hero.
3. Both books have lessons on life and are to be taken metaphorically rather than literally. There was no Jesus and there was no Spiderman or probably there was??
4. Your statement shows that you believe that most beings are weak and without "religion" to guide them they will resort to their animalistic behaviour. If thats the case then you should stick to your religion you need it. Most individuals have the morality to know what is right from wrong.
5. Whilst you are exercising your right to have your views I am exercising mines. Sometimes words cannot bring across how illogical some ideas are and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ you're alluding to

[nareshseep]

^ you're alluding to

Yup ... thats it in a nutshell.

[Habit7]

So the most verified book of antiquity is equal with a comic book or even a napkin... yip, that is intellectually honest

[Sacchetto Boutique]

2. Both books have an imaginary hero.

totally disagree! there is proof that Jesus (as) existed as well as all the other prophets.

Thanks Duane, will do and Kasey...no, I live my life trying to be decent, honest muslim. It isnt easy in a world that is full of deceit and immorality but i try. Info was from a website.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

There are more comparisions but I didnt want to post them all here bc its really long and I know that would not encourage others to read. Please take a look at the website where I got the information.
http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp
That is the official website of Sheikh Yusuf Estes. He was a pastor before he converted to islam many years ago and is very known in the islamic world. He has conducted lectures in Trinidad as well as all over the world. I chose to mention him because of his extensive knowledge about christianity.


COMPARISON of BIBLE & QURAN-
[Dr. Gary Miller- with Commentary by Yusuf Estes]

Bible is Collection of Writings -
Quran is Recitation From God to Muhammad (p) who could neither read nor write

Whereas, The Bible is a collection of writings by many different authors, the Quran is a dictation (or recitation). The speaker in the Quran - in the first person - is God Almighty (Allah) talking directly to man. In the Bible you have many men writing about God and you have in some places the word of God speaking to men and still in other places you have some men simply writing about history or personal exchanges of information to one another (ex: Epistle of John 3). The Bible in the English King James Version consists of 66 small books. About 18 of them begin by saying: This is the revelation God gave to so and so… The rest make no claim as to their origin. You have for example the beginning of the book of Jonah which begins by saying: The word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Elmitaeh saying… quote and then it continues for two or three pages.



Compare this to the beginning of the Book of "Luke" begins by saying: “In as much as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, (2) Just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, (3) It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, (4) That you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.

We see the author of the Book of "Luke" saying essentially, "Many people have written about things, it seems fitting for me to do so too.” "Luke" says it seems to him that as long as others are taking in hand to write something about it, even though they were eye witnesses to the whole thing, he feels that even though he was not, he still has "perfect understanding of all things from the very first."

Therefore this is only a letter from one person to another, neither of whom knew Jesus, peace be upon him, nor were eyewitnesses to any of what had taken place. [Y. Estes]


If you compare that to one of the four accounts of the life of Jesus, Luke begins by saying: “many people have written about this man, it seems fitting for me to do so too”. That is all… no claim of saying “ these words were given to me by God here they are for you it is a revelation”, there is no mention of this.

"Bible" is NOT in the Bible

The Bible does not contain self-reference, that is, the word 'Bible' is not in the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible talk about itself. Some scriptures are sometimes pointed to in the Bible, say: Here where it talks about itself, but we have to look closely. 2nd Timothy 3:16 is the favourite which reads: “All scripture is inspired of God” and there are those who would say, here is where the Bible it talks about itself, it says it is inspired of God, all of it. But if you read the whole sentence, you read that this was a letter wrote by Paul to Timothy and the entire sentence says to Timothy: “Since you were a young man you have studied the holy scriptures, all scriptures inspired by God” and so on… When Timothy was a young man the New Testament did not exist, the only thing that stems he was talking about are scriptures – which are only a portion of the Bible - from before that time. It could not have meant the whole Bible.

[Chimera]

^^ Sacchetto Boutique, you should quote your source when you copy and paste and place the quoted piece in quotation marks. That way others can reference your quote.

its from a islamic website of course

http://www.islamcan.com/common-question ... spel.shtml

[bluefete]

2. Both books have an imaginary hero.

totally disagree! there is proof that Jesus (as) existed as well as all the other prophets.

Sachetto Boutique: There has been and continues to be a concerted effort to deny the existence of Jesus and several others as a "fairytale" equivalent to the 'spaghetti monster".

Did you ever notice that the most reviled name on television, on radio and in the movies is the name of Jesus Christ?

Not Allah, nor the Prophet Muhammed, nor Hanuman, nor Vishnu, nor Mother Lakshmi. But the name of Jesus Christ. There must be a wonderful reason why, 2,000 years after he came, that contemporary society continues to ridicule his name.

I wonder what they are afraid of?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

So the most verified book of antiquity is equal with a comic book or even a napkin... yip, that is intellectually honest

if it is the most verified book why almost 4.7 billion people don't follow it and ALOT of them think it is flawed and corrupted.

that's 66% of the world don't agree that it is the most verified book of antiquity.

you have to admit that it is verified by the very same people who believe in it, so I think what nareshseep is saying is that it is the same circular logic that "the book says that the book is right" which is what the napkin graphic is showing. It's a strawman to say he is comparing Spiderman to God. He isn't.

The fact that Jesus' existence, immaculate conception and rise to prophethood is verified both by Christian and Muslim holy texts is quantifiable evidence! However a Christian using the Qur'an's mention of Jesus or Muslims using the Bible's mention of Jesus and Mary both as proof of Jesus but then discarding all the other teachings of the respective book is no different from using science for anti-biotics but discarding what science finds with regards to evolution, age of the earth and big bang. Now THAT is not being intellectually honest!

[marlener]

Probably the same reasons why so many people break the laws of the land on a daily basis,authentication does not mean one will obey.Most time people knopw what they are doing is wrong they just make a conscious choice not too because it goes against their carnal nature.

[Habit7]

If it isn't the most verified book of antiquity, the amount of people who follow it shouldn't matter. Present another more verified book and prove my claim wrong. But I think you don't understand what I mean about most verified book of antiquity, what I mean is that there is no other book outside our recent era that has more analogous manuscripts and corroborated historical fact.

You look at nareshseep's second meme, and if you think I am creating a strawman by saying "he is comparing Spiderman to God" we then have different rules of comprehension.

I don't totally understand the point you are trying to make in the last paragraph and who are you referring to. But right after your hiatus from the thread, I listed all the contemporary sources both internal and external to the Bible viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=13260#p6918237 . However, I believe that although this may counter your point, you won't remain undeterred.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ you are the one saying the world is 6000 years old when there is massive amounts of evidence against it!
You posted a video of Dr. Lisle and there was a video posted of the same Dr. Lisle stating categorically that we must ignore scientific findings when they disagree with what the Bible teaches.
That is not a valid point and it is not worthy of arguing.

"there is no other book outside our recent era that has more analogous manuscripts and corroborated historical fact." - AdamB would say that is the Qur'an you just described

BTW I absolutely agree with the logic that "the amount of people who follow it shouldn't matter" since many people believing something does not make it true!

[nareshseep]

So the most verified book of antiquity is equal with a comic book or even a napkin... yip, that is intellectually honest

Verified by whom and which other book can I cross reference the bible/jesus with ?

For the purpose of discourse.
There is currently a prophet who has supernatural powers. Will you say this person is the Christ the messiah or is this the anti-Christ/devil? Is it weird that the bible mentions that Christ will come again but on the other hand states that anyone who comes in the latter days claiming to be the prophet is the anti-Christ. In other words is jesus=anti-christ. Basically this was written so that no other religion can be formed in these Christian states. No other religion being formed=the oligarchy remains.
If all the evidence against the church is destroyed... then the church must be true?

An interesting read if you do have the time. Did Jesus (if he existed) have a twin?
http://www.abacom.com/~jkrause/jesus.html
http://intimatevolution.hubpages.com/hub/Christ--Twin
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/jesus.html

[Habit7]

Duane nothing you said there refutes my point. And if you disagree with that logic, then why did you use it?

nareshseep, please research how Christ will return and compare it how the Antichrist or any other false christs would come to the fore and you would see how what you saying is feeble but ambitious attempt to shake the faith of somebody who probably never read the New Testament.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Well the Encyclopedia Britannica is made up entirely of analogous material and corroborated historical fact.

The point I was making is that you are arguing this point with AdamB and he believes the Qur'an to be perfect and so he would think "there is no other book outside our recent era that has more analogous manuscripts and corroborated historical fact." and so it does not make the Bible or your feelings for a book unique.

Also I said I AGREE with the logic "the amount of people who follow it shouldn't matter" since many people believing something does not make it true.

[nareshseep]

Duane nothing you said there refutes my point. And if you disagree with that logic, then why did you use it?

nareshseep, please research how Christ will return and compare it how the Antichrist or any other false christs would come to the fore and you would see how what you saying is feeble but ambitious attempt to shake the faith of somebody who probably never read the New Testament.

According to that then all prophets that came after the resurrection are the false christs? This means then Mohammed is a false christ?

And I repeat.
The scripture on anti-christ is written so that no other religion can be formed in these Christian states. No other religion being formed=the oligarchy remains. It was a means for those in power to remain in power.

You still did not answer my question :-
Which other book can I cross reference the bible/Jesus with?
It is strange that the Bible was the only published book in those days.
Does this not hint at a cover up?

[Sacchetto Boutique]

There are more comparisions but I didnt want to post them all here bc its really long and I know that would not encourage others to read. Please take a look at the website where I got the information.
http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp
That is the official website of Sheikh Yusuf Estes. He was a pastor before he converted to islam many years ago and is very known in the islamic world. He has conducted lectures in Trinidad as well as all over the world. I chose to mention him because of his extensive knowledge about christianity.


COMPARISON of BIBLE & QURAN-
[Dr. Gary Miller- with Commentary by Yusuf Estes]

Bible is Collection of Writings -
Quran is Recitation From God to Muhammad (p) who could neither read nor write

Whereas, The Bible is a collection of writings by many different authors, the Quran is a dictation (or recitation). The speaker in the Quran - in the first person - is God Almighty (Allah) talking directly to man. In the Bible you have many men writing about God and you have in some places the word of God speaking to men and still in other places you have some men simply writing about history or personal exchanges of information to one another (ex: Epistle of John 3). The Bible in the English King James Version consists of 66 small books. About 18 of them begin by saying: This is the revelation God gave to so and so… The rest make no claim as to their origin. You have for example the beginning of the book of Jonah which begins by saying: The word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Elmitaeh saying… quote and then it continues for two or three pages.



Compare this to the beginning of the Book of "Luke" begins by saying: “In as much as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, (2) Just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, (3) It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, (4) That you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.

We see the author of the Book of "Luke" saying essentially, "Many people have written about things, it seems fitting for me to do so too.” "Luke" says it seems to him that as long as others are taking in hand to write something about it, even though they were eye witnesses to the whole thing, he feels that even though he was not, he still has "perfect understanding of all things from the very first."

Therefore this is only a letter from one person to another, neither of whom knew Jesus, peace be upon him, nor were eyewitnesses to any of what had taken place. [Y. Estes]


If you compare that to one of the four accounts of the life of Jesus, Luke begins by saying: “many people have written about this man, it seems fitting for me to do so too”. That is all… no claim of saying “ these words were given to me by God here they are for you it is a revelation”, there is no mention of this.

"Bible" is NOT in the Bible

The Bible does not contain self-reference, that is, the word 'Bible' is not in the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible talk about itself. Some scriptures are sometimes pointed to in the Bible, say: Here where it talks about itself, but we have to look closely. 2nd Timothy 3:16 is the favourite which reads: “All scripture is inspired of God” and there are those who would say, here is where the Bible it talks about itself, it says it is inspired of God, all of it. But if you read the whole sentence, you read that this was a letter wrote by Paul to Timothy and the entire sentence says to Timothy: “Since you were a young man you have studied the holy scriptures, all scriptures inspired by God” and so on… When Timothy was a young man the New Testament did not exist, the only thing that stems he was talking about are scriptures – which are only a portion of the Bible - from before that time. It could not have meant the whole Bible.

Anybody even bothered to read Sheikh Yusuf Estes responses to the various 'errors' in the bible???
I would agree that "there is no other book outside our recent era that has more analogous manuscripts and corroborated historical fact." IS the Quran

http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp

[Habit7]

Well the Encyclopedia Britannica is made up entirely of analogous material and corroborated historical fact.

The point I was making is that you are arguing this point with AdamB and he believes the Qur'an to be perfect and so he would think "there is no other book outside our recent era that has more analogous manuscripts and corroborated historical fact." and so it does not make the Bible or your feelings for a book unique.

Also I said I AGREE with the logic "the amount of people who follow it shouldn't matter" since many people believing something does not make it true.

Encyclopaedia Britannica is not commonly referred to as an ancient book.

AbamB cannot say that because I don't think you are aware that the Quran (which means recitation) were all recitations that were committed to memory. Long after the death of Muhammed was there an attempt to compile these recitations in a document called the Quran. The manuscripts of the Quran does not exceed the Bible, neither does any other book from antiquity. The Bible speaks about corroborated historical and archaeological fact not just within its immediate surrounding but areas ranging North Africa, Western Europe and the Middle East all with attested names, genealogies and geography. The Quran nowhere matches this.

Well if you "agree" with the logic, why did you go against it in trying to prove your point?

According to that then all prophets that came after the resurrection are the false christs? This means then Mohammed is a false christ?

No argument from me here

The scripture on anti-christ is written so that no other religion can be formed in these Christian states. No other religion being formed=the oligarchy remains. It was a means for those in power to remain in power.

Christianity was formed within the mighty Roman Empire, in a distant province, within a small religion of a defeated people. It taught its adherents to not seek political power, obey the instructions of the land and live peaceably. Its founder and leader was murdered and rose again and did not urge retribution. Its early chief proponents all suffered brutal persecution both from pagan and secular sources.

Tell where in the establishment of this religion, was there plans to set up an oligarchy?

You still did not answer my question :-
Which other book can I cross reference the bible/Jesus with?
It is strange that the Bible was the only published book in those days.
Does this not hint at a cover up?

Secular sources include: Josephus (Jewish historian), Tacitus (Roman historian), Pliny the Younger (Roman politician), Phlegon (freed slave who wrote histories), Lucian (Greek satirist), Celsus (Roman philosopher), Mara Bar Serapion (prisoner awaiting execution), Suetonius, and Thallus.

Which days are you talking about? Because the printing press was invented in 1450 and books weren't "published" until then. They were all handwritten and copied as manuscripts in which there are several other than the Bible.

[bluefete]

With so many religions and evolution - how come no one has a handle on death?

Islam and Christianity believe in a resurrection.

Hindus believe in a continuous return until Nirvana is achieved.

Evolution and Atheists say once you are dead that is it.

Who to believe?

[Dizzy28]

With so many religions and evolution - how come no one has a handle on death?

Islam and Christianity believe in a resurrection.

Hindus believe in a continuous return until Nirvana is achieved.

Evolution and Atheists say once you are dead that is it.

Who to believe?

L Ron Hubbard!!!

[bluefete]

With so many religions and evolution - how come no one has a handle on death?

Islam and Christianity believe in a resurrection.

Hindus believe in a continuous return until Nirvana is achieved.

Evolution and Atheists say once you are dead that is it.

Who to believe?

L Ron Hubbard!!!

He is not the man with the aliens???

They believe in an alien God called "Xenu".

Scientology and the Sea Org?

INSIDE THE CONTROVERSIAL 60-YEAR OLD RELIGION

Scientology has been dogged by controversy almost since the day it was created.

The belief was founded in 1952 by L Ron Hubbard who until then had been known for writing pulp and science fiction novels.

Followers believe that inside them are ancient alien beings known as thetans which have lived for thousands of years on other planets and were brought to Earth on a space ship that looks like a Douglas DC-8 plane.

Through a process called Dianetics they make themselves far better people, and even massively boost their IQ.

Such claims however have never been proved and instead Scientology has faced allegations it charges outrageous fees for its services and abuses its followers.

Among the most controversial aspects are 'audits' in which followers have to explain their inner secrets to a superior, including their sex lives.

There have also been reports of bizarre punishments and questions have been raised over what happened to the wife of its current leader David Miscavige, who has reportedly not been seen since 2007.

Those who join the higher order of Scientology, known as Sea Org, pledge their allegiance for one billion years - a vow supposedly made by children as young as 10.

Scientology courts Hollywood stars and famous followers include Tom Cruise and John Travolta but it is very rare that they speak about their beliefs.

Cruise's marriage to Katie Holmes was said to have ended over her refusal to allow their six-year-old daughter Suri to be indoctrinated.

She was also said to be concerned about the child being sent to the Scientology Gold Base in California where members are banned from having children, are paid just $50 a week and can be punished for simply looking at somebody the wrong way.

Scientology was also the basis of the current cinema hit The Master in which a drifter is taken in by the leader of a cult-like group.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... hurch.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rters.html

[Kasey]

With so many religions and evolution - how come no one has a handle on death?

Islam and Christianity believe in a resurrection.

Hindus believe in a continuous return until Nirvana is achieved.

Evolution and Atheists say once you are dead that is it.

Who to believe?

who do you want to believe?

It is VERY simple.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

With so many religions and evolution - how come no one has a handle on death?

Islam and Christianity believe in a resurrection.

Hindus believe in a continuous return until Nirvana is achieved.

Evolution and Atheists say once you are dead that is it.

Who to believe?

L Ron Hubbard!!!

He is not the man with the aliens???

They believe in an alien God called "Xenu".

Scientology and the Sea Org?

INSIDE THE CONTROVERSIAL 60-YEAR OLD RELIGION

all religions at 60 years old were considered cults and laughed at by the mainstream religions of the time. You think Christianity or Islam were any different when those religions were just 60years old?

[AdamB]

Qur'aan 2:67-71:

When Moses said to his people: “Allah commands you to slaughter a cow.” They said: “Are you making fun of us?” He said: “I take refuge with Allah from being one of the ignorant” (2.67). They said: “Pray to your Lord for us to clarify to us what she is.” He said: “He says she is neither old nor a heifer but middle-aged between the two, so do what you are commanded” (2.68). They said: “Pray to your Lord for us to clarify to us her color.” He said: “He says she is a yellow cow, bright is her color, and she is pleasing to the beholders” (2.69). They said: “Pray to your Lord for us to clarify to us what she is, for the cows look the same to us; Allah willing, we shall be guided” (2.70). He said: “He says that she is a cow that is not used to plough the land or water the field. She is sound, blemishless.“ They said: “Now you have brought the truth.” They slaughtered her, but they nearly did not do (2.71).