The Religion Discussion

[Sacchetto Boutique]

yes but that doesnt mean we pray to him.

[TonyM]

Respect is given to our prophet for he is the perfect example as sent by Allah..

A man who marries a 6 year old girl and has sex with her when she is 9 years old is a PERFECT example sent by Allah?

Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old.
Abu Dawud 2:2116

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

or someone who encourages people to fondle young girls?
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?'
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:17

And on top of that Muhammad convinced the young girl and her father that is was Allah himself who wanted Muhammad to marry the child and have sex with her
Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "
Sahih Bukhari 9:87:140

Muhammad died when Aisha was only 18 or 19, but there are records of him hitting her
Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?..."
Sahih Muslim 4:2127

this is what you consider "the perfect example as sent by Allah"?
The christians believe some crazy shite, but this is just downright disturbing.

[Habit7]

The Hadith of the Blind Man

“Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight"

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) added, “And if there is some need, do the same.”

Like when the jews asked Moses to talk to GOD of the Old Testament.

Which verse did you get this?

What makes Muhammad's intercession exceed the average Joe Muslim's accountability?
Is Muhammad of greater significance?
How is this different than the hope of Roman Catholics for Mary and saints to intercede for them?

[bluefete]

If there are all these different Gods belonging to different religions, could someone tell me why the blueprint for humans is basically the same?

How come, the Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Buddhists, Sat Sai's, Shinto's and so on - all have 2 eyes, 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 feet etc.?

If there are all these different Gods, shouldn't they all have different designs for their followers? Or are they in collusion (added)

Anyone wants to try this?

[marlener]

On judgement day no one can intervene on our behalf,Only if Christian would have accept the blood of Christ,repent and live in accordance with the will of God would they be saved.Each and every prophet as well as everyone else deeds are written down and will be reviewed before them on that day.Then all shall declare that God is just.
Out of curiousity where in the bible did you see that any prophet will intervene for christian on judgement day.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

If there are all these different Gods belonging to different religions, could someone tell me why the blueprint for humans is basically the same?

How come, the Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Buddhists, Sat Sai's, Shinto's and so on - all have 2 eyes, 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 feet etc.?

If there are all these different Gods, shouldn't they all have different designs for their followers? Or are they in collusion (added)

Anyone wants to try this?

no one answered because your question doesn't make any sense. All religions can't be right because their various doctrines contradict.

[AdamB]

The Hadith of the Blind Man

“Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight"

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) added, “And if there is some need, do the same.”

Please quote your source - hadith book and number,and reported by which Companion. What you quoted is evidence for nothing...because what was reported from the mouth of prophet Muhammad has NOTHING TO DO WITH SAYING "O MUHAMMAD".

You also have to bear in mind that there are muslims who have deviated in some parts of the world, practising stuff that can be equated to "associating partners with GOD".

Examining the evidence will reveal it is weak or fabricated. May Allah guide those muslims to the truth.

Like when the jews asked Moses to talk to GOD of the Old Testament.

Which verse did you get this?

Why did Moses go up to Mt Sinai BY HIMSELF? Why didn't his people take a hike with him?

What makes Muhammad's intercession exceed the average Joe Muslim's accountability?
He is the Prophet / Messenger of GOD.[color=#0000FF] [/color]

Is Muhammad of greater significance?

The prophets are of greater piety and faith GENERALLY.

How is this different than the hope of Roman Catholics for Mary and saints to intercede for them?

RCs call upon DEAD Mary and Saints IN THIS LIFE. Calling upon them now when they have no ability to help themselves, so how can they help others.

Muslims WILL ask Muhammad to intercede on their behalf ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT (NOT NOW).

Muhammad is DEAD now but will be ALIVE on the DAY OF JUDGMENT after RESURRECTION of everyone.

[AdamB]

On judgement day no one can intervene on our behalf,Only if Christian would have accept the blood of Christ,repent and live in accordance with the will of God would they be saved.Each and every prophet as well as everyone else deeds are written down and will be reviewed before them on that day.Then all shall declare that God is just.
Out of curiousity where in the bible did you see that any prophet will intervene for christian on judgement day.

These statements are based on the interpretation of the Bible, which may not have contained the information or the information may have been removed. Understand? If it's not there, that does not mean that it's not true.

Where in the Bible does it say, "On judgement day no one can intervene on our behalf."?

The Hadith of Intercession
Narrated Ma’bad bin Hilal Al’Anzi:

We, i.e., some people from Basra gathered and went to Anas bin Malik, and we went in company with Thabit Al-Bunnani so that he might ask him about the Hadith of Intercession on our behalf. Behold, Anas was in his palace, and our arrival coincided with his Duha prayer. We asked permission to enter and he admitted us while he was sitting on his bed. We said to Thabit, “Do not ask him about anything else first but the Hadith of Intercession.” He said, “O Abu Hamza! There are your brethren from Basra coming to ask you about the Hadith of Intercession.” Anas then said, “Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) talked to us saying, ‘On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, ‘Please intercede for us with your Lord.’ He will say, ‘I am not fit for that but you’d better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.’ They will go to Abraham and he will say, ‘I am not fit for that, but you’d better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.’ So they will go to Moses and he will say, ‘I am not fit for that, but you’d better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.’ (“Be!” – and he was). They will go to Jesus and he will say, ‘I am not fit for that, but you’d better go to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).’

They would come to me and I would say, ‘I am for that.’ Then I will ask for my Lord’s permission, and it will be given, and then He will inspire me to praise Him with such praises as I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those praises and will fall down, prostrate before Him. Then it will be said, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, My followers! My followers!’ And then it will be said, ‘Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.’ I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down (prostrate) before Him. Then it will be said, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, My followers! My followers!’ It will be said, ‘Go and take out of it all those who have faith in their hearts equal to the weight of a small ant or a mustard seed.’ I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down in prostration before Him. It will be said, ‘O, Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, My followers! My followers!’ Then He will say, ‘Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.’ I will go and do so.”‘

When we left Anas, I said to some of my companions, “Let’s pass by Al-Hasan who is hiding himself in the house of Abi Khalifa and request him to tell us what Anas bin Malik has told us.” So we went to him and we greeted him and he admitted us. We said to him, “O Abu Said! We came to you from your brother Anas Bin Malik and he related to us a Hadith about the intercession the like of which I have never heard.” He said, “What is that?” Then we told him of the Hadith and said, “He stopped at this point (of the Hadith).” He said, “What then?” We said, “He did not add anything to that.” He said, “Anas related the Hadith to me twenty years ago when he was a young fellow. I don’t know whether he forgot or if he did not like to let you depend on what he might have said.” We said, “O Abu Said! Let us know that.” He smiled and said, “Man was created hasty. I did not mention that, but that I wanted to inform you of it. Anas told me the same as he told you and said that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) added, ‘I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him and it will be said, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, ‘La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped except Allah).’ Then Allah will say, ‘By My Power, and My Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: ‘La ilaha illallah’. “

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, The Book of Tawheed (Book 93), No. 7028

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Merlener,
Megadoc1 was a regular contributor but he was always trumped by his guru, Dspike. Megadoc1 is a Roman Catholic, so he will do as the hierarchy says...he will worship whatever the Pope tells him to worship despite what his intellect and the bible (instructions of GOD and his prophets) tells him to.

He also trips very easily when having a "discussion".

megadoc1 definitely is not Catholic

Infact early in this thread he was very critical of the RC church and Catholics.

[AdamB]

So Megadoc is a LIAR??? I am certain he affirmed that he is a RC on this thread.

Well their creed is based on lies, so who the cap fits...let them wear it.

[AdamB]

Merlener,
Back to the "sign of Jonah". If Jesus died on Friday evening, spent 3 days and 3 nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH...how come he "was resurrected" on Sunday instead of Monday? That's at least 1 night short if you count the parts of the days on Friday and Monday as 1 each.

[DFC]

Praying to Dead Prophets.
LOL.

Insane yes.

[metalgear2095]

If there are all these different Gods belonging to different religions, could someone tell me why the blueprint for humans is basically the same?

How come, the Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Buddhists, Sat Sai's, Shinto's and so on - all have 2 eyes, 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 feet etc.?

If there are all these different Gods, shouldn't they all have different designs for their followers? Or are they in collusion (added)

Anyone wants to try this?

It's a really stupid question.

[maj. tom]

^ well it should be easy to answer then, no? People only say that questions are stupid when they can't explain it to themselves.

[DFC]

RIP 6.

Why is 6 afraid of 7?
Because 7 is a Muslim.

Muslims believe in 786.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

RIP 6.

Why is 6 afraid of 7?
Because 7 is a Muslim.

Muslims believe in 786.

786 is simply an expression in numbers for Bismillahir Rahamanir Raheem. On its own as a number, it has no real significant religious value. - Mufti Waseem Khan


Anyway tony, Im surprised that question about the 9yr old bride wasnt asked before in this thread. That is a popular question many non-muslims like to throw at muslims as well as the 4 wives thing.

Let me ask you something..if you are given an answer to your question, would it make any difference to you? and also, today, same sex marriage is allowed, was it allowed 100yrs ago or even 50yrs ago?
Afaik, a nine year old girl 1400yrs ago was more mature than the 9yr olds today. Today we consider 9yrs old, a child. In most cultures, a woman is defined as one who is able to have a period (menstrual cycle which can allow pregnancy). The actual age of the girl says nothing really...a girl, in most cultures, become or is considered a women when she gets her 1st period.

My own grandmother who originally came from India as a baby, was married off at 12yrs old as was the culture of Indian families. Today, in Trinidad, this is not allowed bc times have changed. Can you find any reports today, where respectable muslims are marrying 9yr olds? Dont quote me some foolishness of some muslim who has strayed from islam who married a kid ok.

If you r really interested in knowing the answer, please read the following pasted from darul uloom's website:-

Question-Why did the prophet marry a 9 year old girl? If he’s a prophet he should have set an example and adopted ayishah as his daughter and not his wife?

Answer-
Aisha had parents who were very kind, loving and caring to her. She lived and grew with them and was given everything she needed as a daughter. When this was the case, why would the Prophet want to adopt her, when she lived with her real biological parents who treated her with love and attention? At the same time, why would the young girl Aisha want an adoptive father? There was absolutely no reason to do so.

To set an example, the Prophet (SAS) adopted Zaid bin Haritha as a son, and made him his adopted son. He purchased the freedom of many slaves who were in bondage. He helped the poor and needy, provided for the less fortunate and looked after the widows and orphans. His life bears testimony to the fact that he was the leader in every act of charity and goodness. He possessed the best traits and characteristics, and became the perfect role model for human beings.

In the case of Aisha, she did not need an adoptive father, nor did she need a father figure. In fact, she found a great father in Abu Bakr Siddiq (RA) (her beloved father). Instead (of wanting a father), she needed a husband, who would be kind, loving and caring to her. One who was pious and upright. Who possessed the attributes of truthfulness, honesty and trustworthiness. In other words, she needed someone whom she could call her ‘perfect husband’, and this person was not to be any other one than that of the Prophet (SAS). The parents of Aisha also were honoured to have such a son-in- law, who was indeed the best husband for their daughter. The age difference between Aisha and the Prophet (SAS) did not matter to Aisha, to her parents and to any of the other Arabs, since this was an established practice which was accepted by all at that time.

One must understand that each place and people have their own culture, which they fully accept, though others may not do so. For example, today, in certain countries it is well accepted that a man and a woman can to live together without marriage. They sleep together and live together, and this is well accepted for them. However, this is rejected and abhorred by other people. For them, this act is sinful and immoral and they will never encourage such. In a similar manner, there are cities, states and countries today where same sex marriages and relations are fully endorsed, allowed and accepted. This is a new culture that has come about in certain places, and is fully encouraged by people of a certain culture. Yet, for many, this is disgusting, indecent and a heinous sin. In this way, there are many wrong and immoral things which are done by people and have been culturally accepted and are considered to be normal, but these same things are known and recognised as indecent, immoral and against human values.

So, the gist of this is that with respect to the marriage of Aisha (at a young age), there was nothing wrong with this in religion and in the culture of the people. In fact, not even the Jews and Christians (living at that time-who were many) raised an objection against this marriage of the Prophet. It is also important to note that at the time the Prophet (SAS) started to live with Aisha, she had already reached the age of puberty. This was an age at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction of offspring, which meant that she was a woman, since a woman is defined as a female who is capable of bearing offsprings. As such, when the Prophet started to live with Aisha, he began to live with a woman and not a child. As mentioned by many historians, girls at that time and in that land attained puberty at a very young period, and at the age of 9 years, Aisha had already reached the age of puberty which made her a young woman.

So, saying that the Prophet (SAS) married a child is a statement that is meant to critize and condemn the Prophet (SAS).

In fact, if we look at other reports, we will find that in the past, girls were married at a very young age. In this regard, Tim Lambert in his ‘Brief History of Women- Women in the Old Testament’, wrote, ‘The father was very powerful in Israelite society. He owned his wife and could divorce her if he wished. He could also arrange marriages for his children. People in Israel got married very young. A girl would marry when she was 12’. This article shows that a girl would marry when she was 12 years of age. According to todays’ standard 12 years is still a child. But no one has anything to say about this.

In another article entitled ‘Child marriage in Nepal’ by Rupa Dhital, the following is written, ‘According to the first report prepared under the Demographic Sample Survey, 1986-1987, it is stated that nearly 7% of girl children were found to be married before reaching the age of 10’. (Source- Unicef)

Here also, it shows that girls marrying at such a tender age is still occurring in our times. But strange enough, no one speaks about it.

In a similar article on ‘Women in History’ by Melisendo, while discussing ‘Medieval Marriage and childbirth’ wrote a few examples of famous women who married at a young age. She stated:-

* Bianca of Savoy, Duchess of Milan was married at the age of 13 years (1350) and aged 14 when she gave birth to her eldest son, Giangaleazzo (1351).

* Theodora Comnena was aged 13 years when she was married to King Baldwin 111 of Jerusalem (1158).

* Agnes of France was 12 years when widowed. She was married to Andronicus Comnenus, Byzantine Emperor (1182).

* St. Elizabeth of Portugal was aged 12 years when she was married to King Denis of Portugal.

* Caterina Sforza was betrothed at the age of 9 years, and married at age 14 years.

* Beatrice d’Este was betrothed at the age of 5 years and married at the age of 15 years.

These are some examples of young women who got married at an early age- where in today’s world would be thought of as being children. But no one speaks against any of these. Strange enough, people find the time to only identify Aisha’s marriage among so many other young women, who got married at age 9.

here is the actual page where many other questions are answered:-
http://www.darululoomtt.net/friend-america-asked-questions/

[maj. tom]

... and thus the women's rights movement on Trinituner was pushed back for another 1400 years.

[megadoc1]

Well ain't that a thing,I told of an actual experience to generate discussion and man resort to name calling,starting to sound like another contributor to the thread.If anyone not sure what my views are concerning the bible feel free to ask don't assume you know.Will even discuss the 'lost books' if you wish.

Can`t comment on Megacoc`s belief as to whether he is Catholic or not would have to confirm that with him
,the thing is I wasn`t throwing that for anyone,AdamB might think it was directed to him,Megadoc perhaps. I sincerely believe that all study of scriptures,whether Koran,Bible,Gita should start with prayer and willingness to learn what the divine one wants you to learn,not jumped into with with the intention to look for something to argue about.If you look back at my post shere,you will see two things,one I have never insulted anyone or their beliefs and I was probably the only one who admited I didn`t know. I am willing to engage in discussion with anyone willing.

marlene ,marlene, first I don't intend to in insult you and I know for sure I did not call you names but if my tongue in cheek /sacasm/picong statement seemed offensive, I am very sorry and I will be carefull not to use such when replying to stuff from you,please accept my apology. however,I am familiar with the argument that surrounds the discussion that you attempted to raise and as you can see in my response it is a very silly example to use when compared to how things were actually done in the ancient world . who knows? maybe you already know this but as you said
your intent was merely to generate discussion, if so, no problemo

[TonyM]

Sacchetto Boutique, you completely missed the point as usual.

You said Muhammad is the perfect example as sent by Allah. Muslims follow Sunnah which is "the way of life prescribed as normative for Muslims on the basis of the teachings and practices of Muhammad". They follow him so closely that his dress, beard even the way he place his hands when praying is mimicked.

But is it a good example to marry a 6yr old and have sex with her when she is 9yrs? That is the point.

Also I see you totally ignored the part about him hitting her.

I guess you also missed this video I posted earlier


Why would the Quran instruct men on how to beat their wives?
You claim equality, but no where does it say how a woman can beat her husband.

It is interesting though that you so blindly follow this doctrine that you mentally make it OK to do something that you know is wrong by claiming everyone one else did in back in those times or even now. That does not make it right.

And if Allah made Muhammad an example for the entire Ummah until the day of Qiyamah then his actions should be perfect today as it was 1400 years ago.

Wouldn't it be Sunnah for men today to marry 6yr old girls and have sex with them at 9?
Or do muslim men only mimic some of the things the Prophet did?

[marlener]

Well AdamB,if there is something missing from the bible as you have bee saying so many pages before and you have evidence please share,in response to your first question will answer them one at a time. I think I should say that no mortal man can intervene for us on judgement day only Jesus Christ can. There are dozens of text in the bible that says this. How many would you like. I can tell you that even Jesus said that he is the way the truth and the life and that no man cometh to the father except by him.Romanm 3:23-27 make sit clear again. How can a man who himeself to be judged intervene on our behalf? Mary the mother of Jesus can`t by your own admission you think a prophet can?
Question to Megadoc1,are you a Catholic,I did say I would have to confirm with you so I am trying to confirm.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

Sacchetto Boutique, you completely missed the point as usual.

You said Muhammad is the perfect example as sent by Allah. Muslims follow Sunnah which is "the way of life prescribed as normative for Muslims on the basis of the teachings and practices of Muhammad". They follow him so closely that his dress, beard even the way he place his hands when praying is mimicked.

But is it a good example to marry a 6yr old and have sex with her when she is 9yrs? That is the point.

Also I see you totally ignored the part about him hitting her.

I guess you also missed this video I posted earlier


Why would the Quran instruct men on how to beat their wives?
You claim equality, but no where does it say how a woman can beat her husband.

It is interesting though that you so blindly follow this doctrine that you mentally make it OK to do something that you know is wrong by claiming everyone one else did in back in those times or even now. That does not make it right.

And if Allah made Muhammad an example for the entire Ummah until the day of Qiyamah then his actions should be perfect today as it was 1400 years ago.

Wouldn't it be Sunnah for men today to marry 6yr old girls and have sex with them at 9?
Or do muslim men only mimic some of the things the Prophet did?

boy, u believe as u wish...if islam is bad in your eyes, dont follow it. Whether u agree or not, follow or not, there will always be followers of islam and, i really dont care if you think i follow blindly. Faith is sometimes blind. I feel an inclination toward islam and that, is MY choice. Amazing though, how a religion can be so horrid, yet more n more ppl r converting to islam everyday....

Oh and ur video..i never looked at it. You found a video and assume that guys explanation is CORRECT??? I do NOt follow every single islamic scholar. I follow those who are known to be teaching the hadith correctly. Many so called learned people may have deviated from teh truth in islam so I choose who i get my knowledge from. I trust knowledge from Mufti Ismael Menk (He completed his hifz and recitation courses at an early age and learnt the Arabic and Urdu languages whilst studying Shariah under his father. At the same time he attended an Academic College in Harare where he completed his secondary secular education. He then attained a degree in Shariah from the University of Madinah and later specialised in Iftaa at Darul Uloom Kantharia in Gujarat.). He is a respected scholar in the Hanafi mazhab which most muslims follow. Dont bring me salafi, hanbali or other schools of thought bc i dont follow those.

[M_2NR]

Thread title should be renamed:
"The Religion Haters Thread"

[Habit7]

Please quote your source - hadith book and number,and reported by which Companion.

It is related by Ahmad (4:138 #17246-17247), Tirmidhi ( hasan sahih gharib -- Da`awat Ch. 119), Ibn Majah (Book of Iqamat al-salat wa al-sunnat , Ch. on Salat al-hajat #1385), Nasa'i ( `Amal al-yawm wa al-laylat p. 417-418 #658-660), al-Hakim (1:313, 1:526), Tabarani in al-Kabir , and rigorously authenticated as sound (sahih) by nearly fifteen hadith masters including Ibn Hajar, Dhahabi, Shawkani, and Ibn Taymiyya.

Why did Moses go up to Mt Sinai BY HIMSELF? Why didn't his people take a hike with him?
No, no, no, hold yourself to the same standard, which verse did you get this from?

What makes Muhammad's intercession exceed the average Joe Muslim's accountability?

He is the Prophet / Messenger of GOD.
He is a man, in need of forgiveness himself.

Is Muhammad of greater significance?

The prophets are of greater piety and faith GENERALLY.
Well in Christianity, no one is of greater significance than another. Any expression of great piety and faith in one's life all owes to praise and honour of the One who bestow it on him so that no one can boast in and of themselves.

How is this different than the hope of Roman Catholics for Mary and saints to intercede for them?

RCs call upon DEAD Mary and Saints IN THIS LIFE. Calling upon them now when they have no ability to help themselves, so how can they help others.
How will a currently dead man be able to intercede on your behalf on judgement day? How can he attest to your faithfulness as a Muslim? How is he able to intercede for you more than Joe Muslim, is he currently observing your life?

Muslims WILL ask Muhammad to intercede on their behalf ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT (NOT NOW).
I am sorry, but this is one of the many linchpins of contradictions that Islam has, as it tries to ride on the backs of Judaism and Christianity for credibility and eventually superiority. Nowhere in the Old Testament or New Testament can substantiate praying to, or praying through a sinful human to receive the ear of God. Furthermore, it is odious that a temporal mortal man would stand and attempt to advise God on the fate of one of His created being. Who would want Muhammad, who by even by our biblically influenced legal system would be judged a marauding sociopath with a pedophilic, misogynic, mass-murdering profile, to be their go-between for God and man?

Earlier you said that Jesus is of no less calibre than Muhammad, you couldn't be more wrong.

Unlike any of us, Jesus was sinless. In the Old Testament it prophesies 700 years prior that "He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12). Later in the New Testament it reads, "He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25). This proves a direct attempt of usurpation of the role Christ (who is God) by the man Muhammad several hundred years after these words were penned. So this is one of the reasons why we accuse Muslims of deifying a man despite their claims not to.

[TonyM]

boy, u believe as u wish...if islam is bad in your eyes, dont follow it. Whether u agree or not, follow or not, there will always be followers of islam and, i really dont care if you think i follow blindly. Faith is sometimes blind. I feel an inclination toward islam and that, is MY choice. Amazing though, how a religion can be so horrid, yet more n more ppl r converting to islam everyday....

Oh and ur video..i never looked at it. You found a video and assume that guys explanation is CORRECT??? I do NOt follow every single islamic scholar. I follow those who are known to be teaching the hadith correctly. Many so called learned people may have deviated from teh truth in islam so I choose who i get my knowledge from. I trust knowledge from Mufti Ismael Menk (He completed his hifz and recitation courses at an early age and learnt the Arabic and Urdu languages whilst studying Shariah under his father. At the same time he attended an Academic College in Harare where he completed his secondary secular education. He then attained a degree in Shariah from the University of Madinah and later specialised in Iftaa at Darul Uloom Kantharia in Gujarat.). He is a respected scholar in the Hanafi mazhab which most muslims follow. Dont bring me salafi, hanbali or other schools of thought bc i dont follow those.

LOL your fallback has always been "well you believe what you want and I will believe what I want". But that doesn't mean what you believe is right!

Similarly because you feel most muslims follow a school does not mean it is right either!

and on top of that it is a fallacy that Hanafi is what most muslims follow


besides if you want to follow what most people in the world believe then you should be a Christian since that is the largest religion in the world. Islam never has and never will be the largest.
Recent world census shows
Christians (33.32%)
Muslims (21.01%)
Hindus (13.26%)
Buddhists (5.84%)
Non-religious (14.09%)
Other (12.48%)

In 1990, 935 million people were Muslims. According to the BBC, a comprehensive American study concluded in 2009 the number stood at approximately 23% of the world population with 60% of Muslims living in Asia.[27][28] The report was done by the Pew Forum Research Centre.[28] The forum also projected that in 2010 out of the total number of Muslims in the world 62.1% will live in Asia.[27]
However the report also included a statement saying "While the global Muslim population is expected to grow at a faster rate than the non-Muslim population, the Muslim population nevertheless is expected to grow at a slower pace in the next two decades than it did in the previous two decades. From 1990 to 2010, the global Muslim population increased at an average annual rate of 2.2%, compared with the projected rate of 1.5% for the period from 2010 to 2030".[27] The report also made reference to the fact that Muslims are estimated to make up 23.4% of the total global population in 2010 (out of a total of 6.9 billion people) and that by 2030 Muslims will represent about 26.4% of the global population (out of a total of 7.9 billion people).[27] The Pew report also highlights that there is insufficient data available on religious conversion from its own findings given the complexities of identity and the difficulties of obtaining data: "Statistical data on conversion to and from Islam are scarce. What little information is available suggests that there is no substantial net gain or loss in the number of Muslims through conversion globally...

Buddhism is being recognized as the fastest growing religion in Western societies both in terms of new converts and more so in terms of friends of Buddhism, who seek to study and practice various aspects of Buddhism.[5][6] As in the United States, Buddhism is ranked among the fastest growing religions in many Western European countries.[7]
The Australian Bureau of Statistics through statistical analysis held Buddhism to be the fastest growing spiritual tradition/religion in Australia in terms of percentage gain with a growth of 79.1% for the period 1996 to 2001 (200,000→358,000).[8]
Buddhism is the fastest-growing religion in England's jails, with the number of followers rising eightfold over the past decade.[9]
A traditional belief among its majority Chinese population, Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in Macau.

China has the world's largest population of over 1 billion people.

My point is that you don't think for yourself. You just believe what other people (who you think are smart) believe and that makes you feel comfortable. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[AdamB]

Please quote your source - hadith book and number,and reported by which Companion.

It is related by Ahmad (4:138 #17246-17247), Tirmidhi ( hasan sahih gharib -- Da`awat Ch. 119), Ibn Majah (Book of Iqamat al-salat wa al-sunnat , Ch. on Salat al-hajat #1385), Nasa'i ( `Amal al-yawm wa al-laylat p. 417-418 #658-660), al-Hakim (1:313, 1:526), Tabarani in al-Kabir , and rigorously authenticated as sound (sahih) by nearly fifteen hadith masters including Ibn Hajar, Dhahabi, Shawkani, and Ibn Taymiyya.
http://www.assimalhakeem.net/node/3578 The Shia misinterpret this and have misguided themselves into seeking intercession to dead people. may Allah guide them and habit7 to the truth.

Why did Moses go up to Mt Sinai BY HIMSELF? Why didn't his people take a hike with him?
No, no, no, hold yourself to the same standard, which verse did you get this from?
This is so well-known, I am not going to waste my time. Moses went up the Mount Sinai for a meeting with his Lord for 40 days, saw the "burning bush" and came back down with the 10 Commandments. It's sad that Christians reject the Old Testament, yet they have it in their bibles.

What makes Muhammad's intercession exceed the average Joe Muslim's accountability?

He is the Prophet / Messenger of GOD.
He is a man, in need of forgiveness himself.

Is Muhammad of greater significance?

The prophets are of greater piety and faith GENERALLY.
Well in Christianity, no one is of greater significance than another. Any expression of great piety and faith in one's life all owes to praise and honour of the THREE (corrected) who bestow it on him so that no one can boast in and of themselves.

How is this different than the hope of Roman Catholics for Mary and saints to intercede for them?

RCs call upon DEAD Mary and Saints IN THIS LIFE. Calling upon them now when they have no ability to help themselves, so how can they help others.
How will a currently dead man be able to intercede on your behalf on judgement day? How can he attest to your faithfulness as a Muslim? How is he able to intercede for you more than Joe Muslim, is he currently observing your life?

Muslims WILL ask Muhammad to intercede on their behalf ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT (NOT NOW).
I am sorry, but this is one of the many linchpins of contradictions that Islam has, as it tries to ride on the backs of Judaism and Christianity for credibility and eventually superiority. Nowhere in the Old Testament or New Testament can substantiate praying to, or praying through a sinful human to receive the ear of God. Furthermore, it is odious that a temporal mortal man would stand and attempt to advise God on the fate of one of His created being. Who would want Muhammad, who by even by our biblically influenced legal system would be judged a marauding sociopath with a pedophilic, misogynic, mass-murdering profile, to be their go-between for God and man?

Earlier you said that Jesus is of no less calibre than Muhammad, you couldn't be more wrong.

Unlike any of us, Jesus was sinless. In the Old Testament it prophesies 700 years prior that "He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12). Later in the New Testament it reads, "He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25). This proves a direct attempt of usurpation of the role Christ (who is God) by the man Muhammad several hundred years after these words were penned. So this is one of the reasons why we accuse Muslims of deifying a man despite their claims not to.

Habit7,
You have an improper estimation of GOD, so it's not strange that YOU also have a bad opinion of the prophets. You are no different from the jews who built the golden calf to worship in the absence of Moses.

You think Jesus to be more than a man but he was only a man, is still a man and will always be a man and will never be GOD or the son of GOD despite what your corrupted or mis-interpreted bible verses tell you. You believe what you want to believe but GOD has sent a prophet with HIS book to correct the wrong into which Christians have entered from misguidance and shirk (worshipping other than the ONE TRUE GOD).

You think that being sinless is better that sinning and repenting? Do you know what GOD prefers?
If Jesus was sinless, then why did he curse the fig tree? Being fully GOD and fully man, he did not know that the tree did not bear fruit yet? Was he hungry? Mark 11:12-14.

The intercession by prophet Muhammad is NOT SPECIFIC to each person. Rather it is GENERAL. Muhammad will ask for forgiveness for EVERYONE who said "THERE IS NO GOD WORTHY OF WORSHIP EXCEPT THE ONE TRUE GOD". This is not exclusive to muslims alone.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

TonyM, u STILL dont get it........i do not care if you think i follow blindly. It doesnt matter IF YOU think islam is wrong or the school of thought i wish to follow is wrong...U can do as U please and I will do as I please. It doesnt matter to me, if my world view is wrong IN YOUR eyes.

[Chimera]

LOL your fallback has always been "well you believe what you want and I will believe what I want". But that doesn't mean what you believe is right!

.

thats a good position for her to take though.

much better than the other idiots who try to convert you or tell you that you going to hell if you don't follow what they follow.

[Habit7]

I am not rejecting the OT, I am asking you the same thing you ask of me to do with the hadith. Put a scriptural reference for your claim that the Jews sent Moses to intercede for them.

It is no less sinless for God to curse a fig tree than for Him to curse the entire creation in the Fall. I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

What is abundantly clear is that Islam, while attempting to deny the deity of Christ, ascribes the divine role of intercessor to Muhammad. A role that was prophesied for Christ even in Isaiah, a book whose accurate unchanged historicity is attested by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

A role that was prophesied for Christ even in Isaiah, a book whose accurate unchanged historicity is attested by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

what of all the other texts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls that were excluded from the Bible?

The majority of the texts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls do not appear in the Bible. "Scholars now recognize that some of these works were composed earlier than the Essene period, when some of the Biblical books were still being written or redacted into their final form."

[AdamB]

Thanks Duane (ah chilling today),

Habit7,
What makes the role of intercessor a DIVINE duty? At least you affirm INTERCESSION!!

So you are saying that GOD will intercede (plead case of believers - christians according to you) with HIMSELF? HE will ask HIMSELF to forgive ppl?? That makes absolutely NO SENSE!! Well it does work in favour of my position.