The Religion Discussion

[bluefete]

Turin Shroud could be from Christ's lifetime: Infrared tests show ancient cloth may NOT be a medieval fake after all

Infra red tests dated the cloth to some time between 300BC and 400AD


By Fiona Macrae

PUBLISHED: 13:54 GMT, 28 March 2013 | UPDATED: 01:25 GMT, 29 March 2013



Some venerate it as the burial cloth of Christ. To others, the Turin Shroud is nothing more than a medieval hoax.

Now, science has come down on the side of the believers.

Researchers have dated a sample of the 14ft linen sheet to anything between 300BC to 400AD.

They used forensic tests to compare fibres from the shroud with a range of ancient fabric samples. And they discovered that the material could have been made in Jesus’s lifetime.

Their results contradict a landmark 1988 study, spearheaded by the British Museum, which used carbon dating to examine the cloth.



It said the shroud, which has an imprint of a bearded man with wounds consistent to being nailed to a cross, was actually made in the Middle Ages – more than 1,000 years after the Crucifixion.

But scientists at Padua University believe the original results could have been skewed by centuries of water and fire damage.


The shroud, which is one of Catholicism’s most controversial relics, was once described by Pope John Paul II as ‘an icon of suffering in every age’.

The findings are in a new book called Il Mistero della Sindone (The Mystery of the Shroud) which is published on Good Friday.

The authors, Professor Giulio Fanti, an expert in mechanical and thermal measurement at the University of Padua’s Engineering Faculty and journalist Saverio Gaeta, examined fibres from the Shroud and compared them to samples of cloth dating back to between 3000BC and up to the modern era to contrast them and see if it is a Medieval forgery.

Key to the findings are three new tests, two chemical ones and one mechanical, the first two were carried out using infra-red light, and the other using Raman spectroscopy - which measures radiation through wavelengths and is commonly used in forensic science.

The results dated the fibres from the cloth to a period between 300BC to 400AD, which covers the years of Christ's life. Debate has raged whether the image is that of Christ or a fake from the Middle Ages. But what is certain is that experts have never really been able to explain how the image was made.

Carbon 14 tests were conducted on the cloth in 1988 and these findings suggested it dated from between 1260 and 1390.

However, some scientists have since claimed that contamination over the ages from water damage and fire, were not taken sufficiently into account and could have distorted the results.

Since then, there have been several requests for fresh tests but Church chiefs have always refused - and this is why Professor Fanti and his team had to rely on fibres that were used in the 1988 tests.

Before he retired last month pope Emeritus Benedict XVI gave permission for the Shroud to go on display as a 'last gift’ to the millions of Catholics before he retired from public office.

Thirteen years ago when he was plain cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Benedict wrote that the shroud was a ‘truly mysterious image, which no human artistry was capable of producing. In some inexplicable it appeared imprinted upon cloth...’

Italian state TV will broadcast footage of the Shroud but it is not thought that general public access will be allowed until 2025, the date of the next scheduled display.

As part of the TV broadcast, a new app called Sindone 2.0 has been developed, showing a series of HD images of the shroud which highlight details of the cloth not visible to the naked eye.


WHAT IS THE TURIN SHROUD?

The linen cloth, believed by some to have wrapped the body of Jesus Christ, has captivated the imagination of historians, church chiefs, sceptics and Catholics for more than 500 years.

There are no definite historical records concerning the shroud prior to the 14th century. Although there are numerous reports of Jesus' burial shroud, or an image of his head, of unknown origin, being venerated in various locations before the 14th century.

But there is no historical evidence that these refer to the shroud currently at Turin Cathedral. A burial cloth, which some historians maintain was the Shroud, was owned by the Byzantine emperors but disappeared during the Sack of Constantinople in 1204.

Historical records seem to indicate that a shroud bearing an image of a crucified man existed in the small town of Lirey around the years 1353 to 1357. It was in the possession of a French Knight, Geoffroi de Charny, who died at the Battle of Poitiers in 1356.

However the correspondence of this shroud with the shroud in Turin, and its very origin has been debated by scholars and lay authors, with claims of forgery attributed to artists born a century apart. Some contend that the Lirey shroud was the work of a confessed forger and murderer.

The history of the shroud from the 15th century is well recorded. In 1532, the shroud suffered damage from a fire in a chapel of Chambéry, capital of the Savoy region, where it was stored.

A drop of molten silver from the reliquary produced a symmetrically placed mark through the layers of the folded cloth. Poor Clare Nuns attempted to repair this damage with patches.

In 1578 Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy ordered the cloth to be brought from Chambéry to Turin and it has remained at Turin ever since.

The shroud has had many notorious admirers. It even obsessed Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler, who wanted to steal it so he could use it in a black magic ceremony.

In May 2010, five years after he became Pope, Benedict authorised a public viewing of the Shroud - the first since 2000 and also 15 years ahead of its next scheduled public display.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z2OxUOQCaj
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[bluefete]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rgery.html

Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery'

The Turin Shroud is not a medieval forgery, as has long been claimed, but could in fact date from the time of Christ's death, a new book claims.

Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.

Many Catholics believe that the 14ft-long linen cloth, which bears the imprint of the face and body of a bearded man, was used to bury Christ's body when he was lifted down from the cross after being crucified 2,000 years ago.

The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist.

The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics.

Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud, which is kept in a special climate-controlled case in Turin.


The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD.

The experiments were carried out on fibres taken from the Shroud during a previous study, in 1988, when they were subjected to carbon-14 dating.

Those tests, conducted by laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Arizona, appeared to back up the theory that the shroud was a clever medieval fake, suggesting that it dated from 1260 to 1390.

But those results were in turn disputed on the basis that they may have been skewed by contamination by fibres from cloth that was used to repair the relic when it was damaged by fire in the Middle Ages.

Mr Fanti, a Catholic, said his results were the fruit of 15 years of research.

He said the carbon-14 dating tests carried out in 1988 were “false” because of laboratory contamination.

The mystery of the shroud has baffled people for centuries and has spawned not only religious devotion but also books, documentaries and conspiracy theories.

The linen cloth appears to show the imprint of a man with long hair and a beard whose body bears wounds consistent with having been crucified.

Each year it lures hundreds of thousands of faithful to Turin Cathedral, where it is kept in a specially designed, climate-controlled case.

Scientists have never been able to explain how the image of a man's body, complete with nail wounds to his wrists and feet, pinpricks from thorns around his forehead and a spear wound to his chest, could have formed on the cloth. Mr Fanti said the imprint was caused by a blast of “exceptional radiation”, although he stopped short of describing it as a miracle.

He said his tests backed up earlier results which claimed to have found on the shroud traces of dust and pollen which could only have come from the Holy Land.

Mr Gaeta is also a committed Catholic - he worked for L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, and now works for Famiglia Cristiana, a Catholic weekly.

The Vatican has never said whether it believes the shroud to be authentic or not, although Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI once said that the enigmatic image imprinted on the cloth "reminds us always" of Christ's suffering.

His newly-elected successor, Pope Francis, will provide an introduction when images of the shroud appear on television on Saturday, the day before Easter Sunday, which commemorates the resurrection.

The Pope has recorded a voice-over introduction for the broadcast on RAI, the state television channel.

"It will be a message of intense spiritual scope, charged with positivity, which will help (people) never to lose hope," said Cesare Nosiglia, the Archbishop of Turin, who also has the title "pontifical custodian of the shroud".

"The display of the shroud on a day as special as Holy Saturday means that it represents a very important testimony to the Passion and the resurrection of the Lord," he said.

For the first time, an app has been created to enable people to explore the holy relic in detail on their smart phones and tablets.

The app, sanctioned by the Catholic Church and called "Shroud 2.0", features high definition photographs of the cloth and enables users to see details that would otherwise be invisible to the naked eye.

"For the first time in history the most detailed image of the shroud ever achieved becomes available to the whole world, thanks to a streaming system which allows a close-up view of the cloth. Each detail of the cloth can be magnified and visualised in a way which would otherwise not be possible," Haltadefinizione, the makers of the app, said.

[bluefete]

While I would like to believe the cloth is real, it does not gel with the Biblical account.

The Bible says that a SEPARATE cloth was used to wrap the head of Jesus.

The Shroud seems to be an all in one wrapping.

Maybe there was a separate headcloth as well as a one piece for the whole body.

This is a most intriguing matter.

[Bizzare]

some really trustworthy sites there brah

[bluefete]

some really trustworthy sites there brah

I know, eh!

But look at the reports.

[Habit7]

Dude, the Shroud of Turin bears significance to nobody in this thread. Probably you might want to contribute to the topic of Good Friday being that it is Good Friday and all.

[megadoc1]

interesting how the brain works..u read that and deduced that Allah deceived the disciples lol!

lol @ what? why would he want to make it look like he crucified Jesus? who did he intend to deceive?

Jesus prayed to Allah (God) to be saved and so, another was made to look like him (Jesus). That other person was crucifed. Jesus was taken to heaven.

who told you this? can you show me where you got this information? at least can you tell me who the other person was?

The Holy Qur'an Chapter 4 Vs#157 - 158

your brevity is much appreciated! we can conclude then, that its just a matter of you, choosing which source you believe ,now tell me what happens If I hold to the source that preceded the one you chose to believe in, who determines or how can we go about finding out which one is truth? seeing that the one I hold on to which was first and the one you hold on to which came over 400 + years later seems to be in contradiction to one another

[marlener]

Cool but true story,in home room at school,our form teacher had us do something.He gave the first person a message and ask them to pass it along to another and another and final back to him,when it reached back it was not even close to what he had told the first person and the whole exercise took about 5 minutes. Word of mouth. Just saying.Proceed folks sorry for the interruption.

[MG Man]

if u wrap a cloth around a man's head and it leaves an image, when u open it out, u will get a wide, distored picture, not the man's face........that alone shows the image didn;t come from being wrapped around hay-soo's head

[AdamB]

Merlener,
You need to learn about the Science of Hadith, how the narrations of the prophet of Islam has been recorded, memorized, collected, classified and authenticated. It comprises the text of each narration along with the chain of narrators. These narrators were only accepted if they were accurate in memory and practising religiously (not known for lying and committing of sins). Narrations with the same text but different chain of narrators support each other and raise the level of authenticity.

[AdamB]

MG,
Don't you see clearly that Bluefete just proved the existence of GOD from an unexplainable theory?

On another note, his referenced Shroud of Turin "facts" are contrary to what has been said in objective History Channel features.

Once again, people believe what they want to believe.

[AdamB]

what makes worshipping without images superior to having an image as a point of reference?

Who are you or we to judge? The Judge is GOD. How we worship HIM is specified by HIM.

The "Burden of Proof" is upon those who use images to provide evidence of such, that it is from GOD.

Why they need a "point of reference" is another issue which they have to explain.

you talking about burden of proof?
You saying you right and they wrong....the burden of proof is on you, buddy

When it comes to WORSHIP, everything concerning it is PROHIBITED except for what there is EVIDENCE, legislated by GOD.

Those who use images have to prove the authenticity of their source.

First commandment of Moses from the Holy Bible:

1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

The image of jesus is an image.

The image of the cross is an image.

The image of mary is an image.

Imagine that!!

[AdamB]

The Christ Lives on> " And they did not kill Jesus Christ nor did they crucify him; but another was made to appear like him to them".
"But GOD raised the Messiah, Jesus Christ up with his body and soul unto Himself (GOD) and he Jesus Christ is in the heavens and GOD is All Powerful and All Wise
(The Holy Qur'an Chapter 4 Vs#157 - 158)

so its true then, that Allah deceived Jesus' disciples by making them think Jesus was crucified ? now who would be responsible for the "mess" that followed? is Allah responsible for Christianity? remember ,all the disciples except john(and judas of course) were killed for believing this, why would Allah do this to those who sincerely listened to his prophet Jesus? at this point I think you may have to admit that Allah's "trick" backfired big time!

Allah is allowing you to deceive yourselves, dear christians. You don't know the TRUTH concerning the CREED that the disciples were upon. So continue to delude yourselves...

[Bizzare]

Once again, people believe what they want to believe.

Hence the reason you're a moslem

[AdamB]

Wow I will have to agree with MG Man that the Muslims in this thread are terribly avoiding to answer for the esteeming/reverence/veneration of Muhammed in Islam. So let me be more direct:

The Bible teaches that the Son existed in perfect union with the Father and Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world.
The son existed in perfect union with himself except before his birth and after his death. After his death he ceased to exist as the son.

After which, the Godhead executed a plan to demonstrate attributes of God such as His kindness, forgiveness, love, wrath, etc in the Son entering into His creation as a man to die for the sins of those who believe in Him, and rise and again to give them new life.
GOD didn't have attributes before this? Also if HE did, was unable to express them / make them apparent?

Subsequently, He ascended back to the right hand of the Father.
He ascended to the right hand of himself, so he has 2 right hands?

As such, Christians worship Jesus, who both God and man, and pray to Him as He sits enthroned as a person of the Trinity.

Why worship the MAN component of GOD? Was not the purpose of the man part was that he was to be killed to save the sins of man?

Christians rejects the beliefs of Roman Catholics and others who offer prayers to dead people they believe that are in Heaven like saints and Mary the mother of Jesus, as the Bible says not to and they lack the power to make anything efficacious.

Megadoc, what's the RC evidence for worship of mary and saints? Remember Mary is not part of the Trinity. Are Saints worshipped because the Pope says so? (In the hope that one day he too will be worshipped)




Than being said, Christians pray to Jesus because He is both God and man and it is consistent with their beliefs. But why do Muslims pray/supplicate to Muhammed?

For the umteenth time, muslims don't worship Muhammad, get with the programme...

[AdamB]

Dude, the Shroud of Turin bears significance to nobody in this thread. Probably you might want to contribute to the topic of Good Friday being that it is Good Friday and all.

They believe in the hocus pocus, build their house upon the sand...

habit7, there is hope for you yet.

Bizzare, has the bible spoken to you as yet?

[AdamB]

I am glad to see AdamB is progressing from totally avoiding a question to muddling an answer to now the logical fallacy of argumentum verbosium. I hope in time he will give a cogent answer.


Anyways, please reflect on the significance of today's remembrance the day Jesus suffered and died under the wrath of the Father for the sins of those who would believe in Him. Do you think your sins deserved the punishment Jesus received?

Was that it? That's all the wrath that the father could have conjured up? To crucify a man...but the romans were doing this with ease not even with wrath.

Please reflect on this:

Matthew 12:39
New International Version (NIV)
39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jonah was resurrected just as Jesus (that would make him a son of GOD) OR HE DID NOT DIE...JUST AS JESUS!!!

[AdamB]

The King, as I am sure, is well acquainted with the story of the deputation of Najran's Christians who came to Prophet Muhammad (saw). The Prophet invited them to Islaam, and they asked him about the Messiah. They debated with him, and when their arguments were soundly beaten they resorted to slippery ways and deceitful tactics, until the Prophet was commanded to invite them to Mubahalah.4:

"And if anyone should argue with you about this [truth] after all the knowledge that has come unto you, say: "Come, let us summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves; and then let us pray [together] humbly and ardently, and let us invoke Allah's curse upon those [of us] who are telling a lie". (3:61)

The deputation consulted among itself reaching an agreement based on their fear of the consequences and saying, "You know fully that he is a Prophet, and none has ever succeeded when taken up a prophet's challenge of a Mubahala", and so they paid the jizyah.

[megadoc1]

Cool but true story,in home room at school,our form teacher had us do something.He gave the first person a message and ask them to pass it along to another and another and final back to him,when it reached back it was not even close to what he had told the first person and the whole exercise took about 5 minutes. Word of mouth. Just saying.Proceed folks sorry for the interruption.

hi marlener, please don't forget that the old oral tradition from back in the ancient world was a highly developed and prized skill and its being taught today at yale university
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2005/1/05.01.06.x.html
please stay away from any cheap shot argument that tries to discredit this tradition,it only makes the ones involved in your teachers little experiment seemed retarded lol...wait you was there?..oh oh!
anyways this is the same argument some use, to say how the bible was translated so many times
that it lost its true meaning

3. The Jewish transmission of sacred traditions was highly developed and reliable. In an oral culture like that of first century Palestine the ability to memorize and retain large tracts of oral tradition was a highly prized and highly developed skill. From the earliest age children in the home, elementary school, and the synagogue were taught to memorize faithfully sacred tradition. The disciples would have exercised similar care with the teachings of Jesus.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/rediscov ... z2P0LcMH5v

I would say the same for those who were the followers of Muhammad,they did a great jo

[megadoc1]

Allah is allowing you to deceive yourselves, dear christians.

[/quote]of course! why not ? it is he who started it

You don't know the TRUTH concerning the CREED that the disciples were upon. So continue to delude yourselves...

and let me guess........you know right?.....HOT AIR

[marlener]

Well ain't that a thing,I told of an actual experience to generate discussion and man resort to name calling,starting to sound like another contributor to the thread.If anyone not sure what my views are concerning the bible feel free to ask don't assume you know.Will even discuss the 'lost books' if you wish.

[AdamB]

Merlener,
Megadoc1 was a regular contributor but he was always trumped by his guru, Dspike. Megadoc1 is a Roman Catholic, so he will do as the hierarchy says...he will worship whatever the Pope tells him to worship despite what his intellect and the bible (instructions of GOD and his prophets) tells him to.

He also trips very easily when having a "discussion".

[Bizzare]

AdamB, you know what I find amazing..... the same naivety Megadoc displays towards Christianity is the same you display for Islam. Why call him out for doing what the Bible tells him to do when you do whatsoever the Qur'an instructs?

[Rooki3]

trinituner's largest merry go round thread

[AdamB]

AdamB, you know what I find amazing..... the same naivety Megadoc displays towards Christianity is the same you display for Islam. Why call him out for doing what the Bible tells him to do when you do whatsoever the Qur'an instructs?

Haven't I pointed out sufficiently where they diverge from what the Bible and the prophets called / instructed them to? If you had the quality of wisdom, you may recognize the difference.

Furthermore, I have just recently pointed out that if we differ after our cases are put forward, then let us come together, all of us, and pray to GOD for HIS CURSE on the LIARS / ones who are on the wrong path.
NO MORE MERRYGOROUND AFTER THAT!! WHO'S IN?

Does anyone even know what the curse of GOD is? I would tell Megadoc to check the Pope or his henchmen.

[marlener]

Can`t comment on Megacoc`s belief as to whether he is Catholic or not would have to confirm that with him,the thing is I wasn`t throwing that for anyone,AdamB might think it was directed to him,Megadoc perhaps. I sincerely believe that all study of scriptures,whether Koran,Bible,Gita should start with prayer and willingness to learn what the divine one wants you to learn,not jumped into with with the intention to look for something to argue about.If you look back at my post shere,you will see two things,one I have never insulted anyone or their beliefs and I was probably the only one who admited I didn`t know. I am willing to engage in discussion with anyone willing.

[Habit7]

The son existed in perfect union with himself except before his birth and after his death. After his death he ceased to exist as the son.

GOD didn't have attributes before this? Also if HE did, was unable to express them / make them apparent?

He ascended to the right hand of himself, so he has 2 right hands?

Why worship the MAN component of GOD? Was not the purpose of the man part was that he was to be killed to save the sins of man?

Megadoc, what's the RC evidence for worship of mary and saints? Remember Mary is not part of the Trinity. Are Saints worshipped because the Pope says so? (In the hope that one day he too will be worshipped)

For the umteenth time, muslims don't worship Muhammad, get with the programme...

No, His human nature died, his Divine nature did not.

Yes some of these attributes are displayed before time within the Trinity (love, holiness, righteousness), after time displayed to angels (sovereignty, wrath) and to us (forgiveness, loving kindness, love). God can create for His purposes and His glory, who are we to question.

The person of the Son ascended to the right hand of the person of the Father. If I am correct, I believe Muhammad parroted this also as your Islamic sister quoted before from the Quran, aren't you aware?

It is impossible to worship only the divine nature of Jesus. Daniel 7:13-14 prophesies of a God coming as man and ppl worshiping him. The Disciples worshiped Him as God while they saw Him in His human nature John 20:28. The doctrine of the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever (Philippians 2:5-11)

You can address your questions to megadoc when you see him. But likewise to bad Maryology, Islamists seek intercession from Muhammad. Which other prophet do you appeal to talk to Allah for you?

If it is wrong for Roman Catholics to supplicate to dead saints and the deceased earthly mother of Jesus, what makes it right to supplicate to your prophet?

[Sacchetto Boutique]

The son existed in perfect union with himself except before his birth and after his death. After his death he ceased to exist as the son.

GOD didn't have attributes before this? Also if HE did, was unable to express them / make them apparent?

He ascended to the right hand of himself, so he has 2 right hands?

Why worship the MAN component of GOD? Was not the purpose of the man part was that he was to be killed to save the sins of man?

Megadoc, what's the RC evidence for worship of mary and saints? Remember Mary is not part of the Trinity. Are Saints worshipped because the Pope says so? (In the hope that one day he too will be worshipped)

For the umteenth time, muslims don't worship Muhammad, get with the programme...

No, His human nature died, his Divine nature did not.

Yes some of these attributes are displayed before time within the Trinity (love, holiness, righteousness), after time displayed to angels (sovereignty, wrath) and to us (forgiveness, loving kindness, love). God can create for His purposes and His glory, who are we to question.

The person of the Son ascended to the right hand of the person of the Father. If I am correct, I believe Muhammad parroted this also as your Islamic sister quoted before from the Quran, aren't you aware?

It is impossible to worship only the divine nature of Jesus. Daniel 7:13-14 prophesies of a God coming as man and ppl worshiping him. The Disciples worshiped Him as God while they saw Him in His human nature John 20:28. The doctrine of the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever (Philippians 2:5-11)

You can address your questions to megadoc when you see him. But likewise to bad Maryology, Islamists seek intercession from Muhammad. Which other prophet do you appeal to talk to Allah for you?

lol! are u serious??? muslims do not appeal to Muhammad (saws) to talk to Allah for us...lol so funny that u think that. All muslims speak directly to Allah, God Almighty himself. Respect is given to our prophet for he is the perfect example as sent by Allah..merry go round thread indeed...

[Habit7]

Is it not your hope for Muhammad to intercede for you on the day of judgement?

[AdamB]

Habit7,
For the umteenth +1 time, muslims don't pray or supplicate to Muhammad. We pray to Allah (Almighty GOD) only.

If you evidence to the contrary please post it, otherwise try some other point to debate.

However, on the Day of Judgment, muslims as well as all other reigious groups will be led by their prophet. People will ask (not supplicate to) their prophet to intercede (ask Allah's forgiveness) on their behalf. Like when the jews asked Moses to talk to GOD of the Old Testament. I'm sure you're fully capable to find references.

Once again, when I make a claim concerning your religion I present my evidence from your book, so is it reasonable to ask you to reciprocate?