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MG Man
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby MG Man » March 28th, 2013, 10:03 am

thanks for
a) not making much sense
b) not answering my question

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » March 28th, 2013, 10:21 am

MG Man wrote:thanks for
a) not making much sense
b) not answering my question

a) It makes sense, it's just that you don't comprehend. THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. The last prophet before Muhammad was Jesus. He is worshipped partly because an image is associated with him. (I wonder to whom he was directing his worship when he prayed and prostrated?)

b) Muhammad is not worshipped partly because there is no image associated with him.

And we all know that there are many who can't or don't know how to worship without images....with the exception of muslims.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby MG Man » March 28th, 2013, 10:27 am

see post above yours

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » March 28th, 2013, 10:29 am

MG Man wrote:see post above yours

ditto

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby MG Man » March 28th, 2013, 10:41 am

what makes worshipping without images superior to having an image as a point of reference?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » March 28th, 2013, 10:48 am

MG Man wrote:what makes worshipping without images superior to having an image as a point of reference?

Who are you or we to judge? The Judge is GOD. How we worship HIM is specified by HIM.

The "Burden of Proof" is upon those who use images to provide evidence of such, that it is from GOD.

Why they need a "point of reference" is another issue which they have to explain.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby maj. tom » March 28th, 2013, 10:55 am

^

But is that reason enough for widespread protests, rioting, flag burning, invading an embassy and murder just because other people in the free world want to express a thought or idea? I am always so clueless with how the doctrine of Islam is to control and oppress so many things that make living worthwhile.

But in a hypocritical twist, there are many depictions of Muhammad throughout history in manuscripts and there are contemporary illustrations of him all over Iran (but apparently those are ok because it's a picture of him before he became a prophet.)

And another thing, how are you so sure that Muhammad was the last prophet for all time? Don't you think that's a bit of an ego trip on this guy's part to make sure that no one else would usurp his control over people via a religion?

Suppose Allah sends another prophet (does Allah even make the claim that Muhammad was the last prophet that he will send?) with a new doctrine for Islam of actual peace and harmony with the modern world, and this one comes with real scientific proof and not even science can deny it? You know that flying horse trip faster than the speed of light really pisses off the category of people who can actually think for themselves or don't believe that the dog did algebra just because someone told them so. Islam will just say he's false right? And cast him down and say that's devil stuff, etc. And then continue in their ways and running the gauntlet?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby MG Man » March 28th, 2013, 11:08 am

AdamB wrote:
MG Man wrote:what makes worshipping without images superior to having an image as a point of reference?

Who are you or we to judge? The Judge is GOD. How we worship HIM is specified by HIM.

The "Burden of Proof" is upon those who use images to provide evidence of such, that it is from GOD.

Why they need a "point of reference" is another issue which they have to explain.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
you talking about burden of proof? :lol:
You saying you right and they wrong....the burden of proof is on you, buddy

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » March 28th, 2013, 11:48 am

MG Man wrote:
AdamB wrote:
MG Man wrote:what makes worshipping without images superior to having an image as a point of reference?

Who are you or we to judge? The Judge is GOD. How we worship HIM is specified by HIM.

The "Burden of Proof" is upon those who use images to provide evidence of such, that it is from GOD.

Why they need a "point of reference" is another issue which they have to explain.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
you talking about burden of proof? :lol:
You saying you right and they wrong....the burden of proof is on you, buddy

"
AdamB wrote:
MG Man wrote:what makes worshipping without images superior to having an image as a point of reference?

Who are you or we to judge? The Judge is GOD. How we worship HIM is specified by HIM.

Pal, YOU are making this claim that the judge is God. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby noyztoyz » March 28th, 2013, 12:34 pm

maj. tom wrote:^

But is that reason enough for widespread protests, rioting, flag burning, invading an embassy and murder just because other people in the free world want to express a thought or idea? I am always so clueless with how the doctrine of Islam is to control and oppress so many things that make living worthwhile.

But in a hypocritical twist, there are many depictions of Muhammad throughout history in manuscripts and there are contemporary illustrations of him all over Iran (but apparently those are ok because it's a picture of him before he became a prophet.)

And another thing, how are you so sure that Muhammad was the last prophet for all time? Don't you think that's a bit of an ego trip on this guy's part to make sure that no one else would usurp his control over people via a religion?

Suppose Allah sends another prophet (does Allah even make the claim that Muhammad was the last prophet that he will send?) with a new doctrine for Islam of actual peace and harmony with the modern world, and this one comes with real scientific proof and not even science can deny it? You know that flying horse trip faster than the speed of light really pisses off the category of people who can actually think for themselves or don't believe that the dog did algebra just because someone told them so. Islam will just say he's false right? And cast him down and say that's devil stuff, etc. And then continue in their ways and running the gauntlet?



person a wants to make fun of another religion for monetary gain. fine?
person b wants to protest and burn an oppressing nations flag when their religion is attacked. fine?

what you gonna say who is more wrong? wrong is wrong no matter what the degree. and in situations like this, one event comes before the other.

allah says in the quran says muhammad is the last prophet ever, so thats why muslims believe he is

when people become pissed when they hear about that speedy flying horse trip, it could be christian's fault because its they who said God is a man, and hindus fault who say god is this object here. And man or object is not associated with great power.

God is one, is eternal, is an omnipresent being, is the creator of everything and has the power to do anything. Once you understand this, you will understand that trip

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby mamoo_pagal » March 28th, 2013, 12:57 pm

noyztoyz wrote:
maj. tom wrote:^

But is that reason enough for widespread protests, rioting, flag burning, invading an embassy and murder just because other people in the free world want to express a thought or idea? I am always so clueless with how the doctrine of Islam is to control and oppress so many things that make living worthwhile.

But in a hypocritical twist, there are many depictions of Muhammad throughout history in manuscripts and there are contemporary illustrations of him all over Iran (but apparently those are ok because it's a picture of him before he became a prophet.)

And another thing, how are you so sure that Muhammad was the last prophet for all time? Don't you think that's a bit of an ego trip on this guy's part to make sure that no one else would usurp his control over people via a religion?

Suppose Allah sends another prophet (does Allah even make the claim that Muhammad was the last prophet that he will send?) with a new doctrine for Islam of actual peace and harmony with the modern world, and this one comes with real scientific proof and not even science can deny it? You know that flying horse trip faster than the speed of light really pisses off the category of people who can actually think for themselves or don't believe that the dog did algebra just because someone told them so. Islam will just say he's false right? And cast him down and say that's devil stuff, etc. And then continue in their ways and running the gauntlet?



person a wants to make fun of another religion for monetary gain. fine?
person b wants to protest and burn an oppressing nations flag when their religion is attacked. fine?

what you gonna say who is more wrong? wrong is wrong no matter what the degree. and in situations like this, one event comes before the other.

allah says in the quran says muhammad is the last prophet ever, so thats why muslims believe he is

when people become pissed when they hear about that speedy flying horse trip, it could be christian's fault because its they who said God is a man, and hindus fault who say god is this object here. And man or object is not associated with great power.

God is one, is eternal, is an omnipresent being, is the creator of everything and has the power to do anything (besides walk the earth as a man?) Once you understand this, you will understand that trip

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » March 28th, 2013, 1:27 pm

noyztoyz wrote:
maj. tom wrote:^

But is that reason enough for widespread protests, rioting, flag burning, invading an embassy and murder just because other people in the free world want to express a thought or idea? I am always so clueless with how the doctrine of Islam is to control and oppress so many things that make living worthwhile.

But in a hypocritical twist, there are many depictions of Muhammad throughout history in manuscripts and there are contemporary illustrations of him all over Iran (but apparently those are ok because it's a picture of him before he became a prophet.)

And another thing, how are you so sure that Muhammad was the last prophet for all time? Don't you think that's a bit of an ego trip on this guy's part to make sure that no one else would usurp his control over people via a religion?

Suppose Allah sends another prophet (does Allah even make the claim that Muhammad was the last prophet that he will send?) with a new doctrine for Islam of actual peace and harmony with the modern world, and this one comes with real scientific proof and not even science can deny it? You know that flying horse trip faster than the speed of light really pisses off the category of people who can actually think for themselves or don't believe that the dog did algebra just because someone told them so. Islam will just say he's false right? And cast him down and say that's devil stuff, etc. And then continue in their ways and running the gauntlet?



person a wants to make fun of another religion for monetary gain. fine?
person b wants to protest and burn an oppressing nations flag when their religion is attacked. fine?

what you gonna say who is more wrong? wrong is wrong no matter what the degree. and in situations like this, one event comes before the other.

allah says in the quran says muhammad is the last prophet ever, so thats why muslims believe he is

when people become pissed when they hear about that speedy flying horse trip, it could be christian's fault because its they who said God is a man, and hindus fault who say god is this object here. And man or object is not associated with great power.

God is one, is eternal, is an omnipresent being, is the creator of everything and has the power to do anything. Once you understand this, you will understand that trip


Hindus dont say God is object here bro. Hindus just say:

God IS..................

Hindus say God is omnipresent, can do or acheive anything. Hindus dont limit God......ever. As long as the sentence "God is....", is allowed continue, limitations are added. Hindus worship, what certain objects represents, not the objects themselves. They dont say other religions are wrong, cause they believe that God, in all his power, can do anything (including have multiple religions?).

If God cannot have multiple religions, he is limited (not so?).
We (humans) just are not capable of understanding the term 'limitlessness'. If we did, we would not look down at others beliefs.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 28th, 2013, 1:56 pm

Wow I will have to agree with MG Man that the Muslims in this thread are terribly avoiding to answer for the esteeming/reverence/veneration of Muhammed in Islam. So let me be more direct:

The Bible teaches that the Son existed in perfect union with the Father and Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world. After which, the Godhead executed a plan to demonstrate attributes of God such as His kindness, forgiveness, love, wrath, etc in the Son entering into His creation as a man to die for the sins of those who believe in Him, and rise and again to give them new life. Subsequently, He ascended back to the right hand of the Father. As such, Christians worship Jesus, who both God and man, and pray to Him as He sits enthroned as a person of the Trinity.

Christians rejects the beliefs of Roman Catholics and others who offer prayers to dead people they believe that are in Heaven like saints and Mary the mother of Jesus, as the Bible says not to and they lack the power to make anything efficacious.






Than being said, Christians pray to Jesus because He is both God and man and it is consistent with their beliefs. But why do Muslims pray/supplicate to Muhammed?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » March 28th, 2013, 2:19 pm

^^they say they dont.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby mamoo_pagal » March 28th, 2013, 2:38 pm

Kasey wrote:
noyztoyz wrote:
maj. tom wrote:^

But is that reason enough for widespread protests, rioting, flag burning, invading an embassy and murder just because other people in the free world want to express a thought or idea? I am always so clueless with how the doctrine of Islam is to control and oppress so many things that make living worthwhile.

But in a hypocritical twist, there are many depictions of Muhammad throughout history in manuscripts and there are contemporary illustrations of him all over Iran (but apparently those are ok because it's a picture of him before he became a prophet.)

And another thing, how are you so sure that Muhammad was the last prophet for all time? Don't you think that's a bit of an ego trip on this guy's part to make sure that no one else would usurp his control over people via a religion?

Suppose Allah sends another prophet (does Allah even make the claim that Muhammad was the last prophet that he will send?) with a new doctrine for Islam of actual peace and harmony with the modern world, and this one comes with real scientific proof and not even science can deny it? You know that flying horse trip faster than the speed of light really pisses off the category of people who can actually think for themselves or don't believe that the dog did algebra just because someone told them so. Islam will just say he's false right? And cast him down and say that's devil stuff, etc. And then continue in their ways and running the gauntlet?



person a wants to make fun of another religion for monetary gain. fine?
person b wants to protest and burn an oppressing nations flag when their religion is attacked. fine?

what you gonna say who is more wrong? wrong is wrong no matter what the degree. and in situations like this, one event comes before the other.

allah says in the quran says muhammad is the last prophet ever, so thats why muslims believe he is

when people become pissed when they hear about that speedy flying horse trip, it could be christian's fault because its they who said God is a man, and hindus fault who say god is this object here. And man or object is not associated with great power.

God is one, is eternal, is an omnipresent being, is the creator of everything and has the power to do anything. Once you understand this, you will understand that trip


Hindus dont say God is object here bro. Hindus just say:

God IS..................

Hindus say God is omnipresent, can do or acheive anything. Hindus dont limit God......ever. As long as the sentence "God is....", is allowed continue, limitations are added. Hindus worship, what certain objects represents, not the objects themselves. They dont say other religions are wrong, cause they believe that God, in all his power, can do anything (including have multiple religions?).

If God cannot have multiple religions, he is limited (not so?).
We (humans) just are not capable of understanding the term 'limitlessness'. If we did, we would not look down at others beliefs.


Kasey you don't get it yet do you:
Islam can tell Christians about their religion
Islam can tell Hindus about their religion
Only Muslims can comment on Islam. Aint no Christian or Hindu can comment there..........they heathens/kafir's/infidel. Dem hearts durty and can't receive anything from God.

You can't tell them anything cause you don't belong to them...........time after time they preach their ignorant assumptions and claim it as fact. Deal with it, an Islamic scholar (who is biased to Islam) can comment on another religion that he never took an unbiased learning approach too.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » March 28th, 2013, 10:04 pm

For habit7 and christians:

The letter of the Imaam of the Muttaqeen, Ibn Taymiyyah to the King of Cyprus and the religious leaders, princes and priests replying to their enquiries. He explains to them the message of religions that proceeded the final message. He emphasises the difference between the Muslim understanding of it as opposed to the adulterations that took place later.

From Ahmad ibn Taymiyyah to Sarjawaz, the leader of his nation, and his courtiers, religious leaders, bishops, hermits, princes. Peace be upon the followers of guidance.

We praise Allah, the only God, the Lord of Ibraaheem, and the household of 'Imraan. We ask Him to send His blessings upon His chosen worshippers and His guided prophets. Especially, those prophets who possessed the greatest determination who are the leaders of all creation and the chiefs of all nations. They were the ones whom covenants were taken from: Nuh, Ibraaheem, Moosa, 'Eesaa, and Muhammad (saw) as they were mentioned in Allah's Book:

"In matters of faith, He (Allah) has ordained for you that which He enjoined upon Nuh , and into which We gave you (O Muhammad SAW) insight through revelation -- as well as that which we enjoined upon Ibraaheem , Moosa and 'Eesa: steadfastly uphold the truth and do not break up your unity therein" (42:13)

"And Lo! We did accept a solemn pledge from all the Prophets - from you [O Muhammad] as well as from Nuh, and Ibraaheem, and 'Eesaa the son of Maryam - for we accepted a most weight, solemn pledge from [all of] them, so that [at the end of time] He might ask those men of truth as to [what response] their truthfulness [had received on earth]. And grievous suffering He has readied for all who deny the truth." (33:7-8)

We ask Him to direct the peace and blessings towards the Seal of Messengers, their speaker when they return to their Lord and their Imaam when they meet. He is the interceder of the creation on the Day of Reckoning, the Prophet of mercy and courage who embodies all of the splendours of previous prophets. He was the one that 'Eesaa, the servant of Allah1, His Spirit and Word that He bestowed upon the truthful, pure and virginal Maryam, daughter of 'Imraan, gave glad tidings of. This was the Messiah of guidance, 'Eesa ibn Maryam, of great honour in this life and the next, characterised by grace and mercy due to what he relieved Banee Israa'eel (those descendents from the household of Prophet Ya'qoob) of Moosa's message, characterised by the magnificence and firmness. Allah had then sent the final and concluding Messenger (saw) characterised by firmness on the disbelievers and mercy of the believers, whose sharee'ah contained the beauty of all the previous ones. May Allah bless them all, and bless those that follow them until the Day of
Judgement.

Indeed, Allah created the creations with His Supreme Ability, and shown in them a sign of His Wisdom and Mercy. All this was done so that His Command is obeyed through His worship. The origin of such worship is the higher spiritual wisdom and knowledge of Allah and love for Him. So whom Allah guides to His straight path is thereby given knowledge of His noble Names and exalted Attributes. The person is then awarded repentance and fear of him, so that he longs for Allah like the eagles long for their high nests, and to be immersed in His Love the same way a baby loves his mother. Thus is worship: love, fear and hope, and thus is sincerity to Who owns the heavens and earth, the Lord of the firsts and the lasts. It is Allah, the Creator of the Seen and that which is beyond human perception, and His servants do not ascribe partners unto Him to be revered in the same way, nor do they take (instead of Allah) a protector, a king, a prophet or a priest. Allah's worshippers recognise that everyone in the heavens and earth, are mere servants. Allah knows them all and they will return to Him one by one on the Day of Judgement. Such are the people chosen, guided and strengthened to the truth by Allah the Most Graceful, for He guides whom He pleases to the Straight Path.

Mankind after the time of Adam and before that of Nuh, 'alayhis Salaam, were on the Tawheed and sincerity that their father Nuh was upon. At a later date, humankind invented Shirk and the worship of idols. This innovation was self-made and had no origin in a book of Allah, or through a prophet of His. Rather, they were doubts that the Shaytaan had instilled in their imagination, relying on corrupt analogies, and deviant conceptions. Some of them thought idols as the talismans of stars and great spirits. Some sculptured them in the likenesses of their previous prophets and pious people. And some made their idols the lowly spirits of jinns and devils.

As most were ignorant followers of their leaders, turning away from the path of guidance, Allah sent unto them his Prophet Nuh, 'alayhis salaam. Nuh called them to the worship of Allah alone, rebuking them for the worship of other beings even though they claimed that the idols were worshipped for purposes of intercession only. Nine hundred and fifty years was the length of time that Nuh proclaimed the call until Allah informed him that none will reach Islaam save those already Muslim. Then, Nuh 'alayhis salaam, prayed to Almighty Allah to drown the disbelievers, and he was answered. Then came the prophets after him, one after the other until the earth was engulfed by the beliefs of the disbeliever in the Oneness and Uniqueness of Allah, when the tyrants and pharoahs were the chiefs throughout the world. During these terrible times the Imaam of all believers, and the originator of the pure creed and everlasting word Ibraaheem, 'alayhis salaam was sent. Ibraaheem called people to the declaration of God's perfection and denounced their planet and idol worship, saying:

"Unto Him who brought into being the heavens and the earth have I turned my face, having turned away from all that is false; and I am certainly not of those who associate others with Allah in His divinity". (6:79)

He also said to his people,

"Have you, then, ever considered what is that you have been worshipping, you and those ancient forefathers of yours? Verily, these [false deities] are my enemies [and that none is my helper] save the Sustainer of all the worlds who created me and is the One who guides me, and is the One who gives me to eat and to drink, and when I fall ill, is the one who restores me to health, and who will cause me to die and then will bring me back to life, and who, I hope will forgive me my faults on the Day of Judgement" (26:75-82)

Ibraaheem, 'Alayhis-salaam, with his followers, have also said to their people,

"Verily, we absolve ourselves from you and of all that you worship instead of Allah: we deny the truth of whatever you believe; and between us and you there has arisen enmity and hatred, to last until such a time as you come to believe in Allah alone." (60:4)

And so Allah made the prophets and messengers from amongst Ibraaheem's descendants and equipped all with signs, and placed some higher than others in status. Allah granted Moosa the stick that He caused to come to life and devour what the magicians had made through ropes and sticks. Allah had also split the sea and caused it to harden whilst the water stood divided into twelve paths for the number of the tribes. Moosa, 'alayhis salaam, was shaded with his people, white clouds escorting them, and was provided with manna and quails every morning; and when they became thirsty, Moosa struck the rod with his stick and water gushed out into twelve springs. Allah had then sent prophets from among the Israelites. Some resurrected the dead and others cure the sick. Some prophets were given command over other creatures, and others were sent with many kinds of miracles. This is all agreed, even by the Jews and Christians, for their books contain many narratives of prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Habakkuk, David and Soloman, and what the book of Kings, and other contain in terms of valid stories.

Yet Banee Israa'eel were a coarse and unrepenting nation. Sometimes they worshipped idols and stones, and other times Allah. Sometimes they would kill the prophets unjustifiably, and so they were cursed by Daawood, 'alayhis salaam, and the destruction of Jerusalem is common knowledge to all.

In the midst of this, Allah sent the Messiah, the son of Maryam, together with his mother, as a messenger and a sign to mankind. This miraculous act was a testimony to the ability of Allah and comprehensiveness of His Command in dividing mankind into four unique categories. Aadam, 'alayhis salaam, was created without a male-female interaction, and his wife created from a part of a male. Then the Messiah, son of Maryam, was created from a female without male intervention and all others from males and females. This servant, the Messiah son of Maryam, was given clear signs whereby he returned the dead back to life, healed the blind and the leper, and called to the worship of Allah, following the way of his fellow prophets, confirming what came before him, and giving glad tidings of what shall come after.

But Banee Israa'eel disobeyed and became arrogant. This was a direct contrast to 'Eesa's message. This message was noted for its humility, mercy and forgiveness, seen in the characters of early priests and hermits. Later on, 'Eesa and his followers became an issue that divided people into three camps: The first disbelieved and claimed that he was an illegitimate child whose father was Joseph the Carpenter, accusing his mother of fornication. That first group had also claimed that none of the Old Testament was abrogated. At the same time a second group were very excessive in elevating his status until they called him God and the son of God. They claimed that the Lord of the Worlds had descended and sent His son to be crucified for the sin of Aadam, 'alayhis salaam. But how could they allege that Allah, the One, the Eternal, who begets not, and neither is He begotten, and there is nothing that could be compared to Him, had in fact begotten and taken a son? Without justifying proof by intellect or through their own Biblical evidences, a difference has continued into the areas of trinity and unity. Though there were some perplexing verses in some scriptures, there were many clear-cut ones to sort out any confusion professing the servanthood of 'Eesaa and his supplication to, and the worship of Allah, alone.

(1) Servitude in Islaam refers to the total submission to Allah AND absolute love for Him.

The cornerstone of religion is the belief in Allah and His Messenger, as the final Prophet has said:

"I was ordered to fight the people until they bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger".

He also said:

"Do not over-glorify me as the Christians did to 'Eesaa bin Maryam, for I am but a servant and so therefore describe me as (1) the servant of Allah and (2) His Messenger."

And as a result of this pillar, the Sabians and Brahmins and those of the same ilk who rejected the prophets are Kuffaar in their affirmations and beliefs, corrupt in their view of prophets. And those instigators of trinity into the heart of monotheism had corrupted their religion in a plain way, known through the Fitrah that Allah had created humans upon and through the books that He had sent.

A general trend is observed among the priests, cardinals and Archbishops whereby their rise to genuine distinction and prominence is accompanied with their gradual disbelief in their own creed. Yet they insist on retaining their privileged positions and continuing their hypocrisy to the rulers and people. This observation is evident in the behaviour of Ibn al-Bouri of Jerusalem and Ibn al-Quf of Damascus. Similarly, many of the distinguished members of the clergy have been approached and advised by some (Muslim) noble people, who made it clear that their beliefs were not firmly held, if present at all, and that their retention of position is due to custom and privilege and not by right. A similar tradition is applicable to the kings and the wealthy. It is also observed that the efforts of theologian scholars are not directly concerned with the religion of the Messiah. Instead, logic, philosophy, mathematics, astronomy and medicine are commonly found. And if a religious discipline is studied, then the theological rhetoric of the Sabians is used. This last feature is the exact disbelief that Allah had sent Ibraaheem to counter through conveying the authentic message. And this message is the one ignored by current clergy who substitute it with the rites approved by whims of the public and the desires of the rulers.

This aforementioned clergy had ever contradicted the Jews in their adherence to the Scriptures, although they claimed to follow its entirety save what 'Eesaa had abrogated. The Jews belittled the prophets until they killed them, whereas the Christians were so excessive in their admiration as to worship them. The Jews claimed that it does not befit the Almighty to change or abrogate His Word from time to time even if a messenger claims it. Yet the Christians counter-claimed that their religious leaders had the power to change what they see as appropriate, and in doing so prohibit or sanction what they wish. Furthermore, those religious leaders can order the sinner to participate in extra worship and thereby forgive him. The Jews claim that many things have been prohibited upon them, yet the Christians say that everything between the mosquito and elephant is allowed: one eats what he wishes and leaves what he despises. The Jews claim that physical impurities are grave, that it is disallowed to sit or eat with the menstruating women. The Christians say the opposite, and do not enjoin either circumcision or washing (Ghusl) and the removal of impurities, even though the disciples were on the sharee'ah of the Torah.

Moreover, the prayer to the east, and the hanging of the cross were not acts enjoined by the Messiah or called for by his disciples. Rather, they were innovated by Emperor Constantine and others. Any true religion whose followers aim is the pleasure of Allah, has to be commanded by Allah Himself and delivered by His prophets and messengers. On the other hand, innovations in religious matters all amount to misguidance and idols were only worshipped first through innovation.

In generally the majority of current Christian rites of worship and celebration were never commanded by Allah nor sent through His Messenger. Yet Christians possess mercy and kindness, which are from Allah's Deen. This characteristic was not found amongst the Jews who are coarse and aloof. The Jews, nevertheless are intelligent, yet stubborn and arrogant, and the Christians are ignorant of the truth and oblivious to the path of Allah.

This is not to say that those people of the book never accepted true guidance. Many current and previous groups of scholars embrace Islaam and migrated to the way of Allah and His Prophet. They had also written about the proofs of Muhammad's (saw) prophethood in other books of Allah, highlighting thereby areas hitherto ignored. And when the parties differed over the revealed guidance, Allah sent the Prophet that the Messiah and previous prophets had mentioned. This last prophet was calling to the creed of Ibraaheem and the creed of the Messengers before and those after Ibraaheem. This message was the sole worship of Allah without partners, the sincere submission to Allah in all areas of the Deen, purifying the earth from the worship of idols and the religion of minor and major shirk. This occurred as idols were being worshipped in the lands of Sham, the lands of the sons of Israa'eel and of those who proclaim their Christianity. The last Messenger (saw) called all to believe in all of the revealed books of Allah, i.e. the Torah, the Bible, the Psalms, and the Qur'aan and in His Prophets from Aadam to Muhammad (saw). Allah says:

"And they say, "Be Jews", or "Christians", and "you shall be guided". Say [to them, O Muhammad]: "Nay, but [ours is] the creed of Ibraaheem, who turned away from all that is false, and was not of those who ascribe divinity to any beside Allah". Say: "We believe in Allah and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Ibraaheem and Isma'eel and Ishaq and Ya'qoob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed to Moosa and 'Eesaa and that which has been vouchsafed to all the [other] prophets by their Sustainer: we make no distinction between any of them. And it is unto Him that we surrender ourselves [in Islaam]". And if [others] come to believe in the way you
believe, they will indeed find themselves on the right path; and if they turn away, it is but they who will be deeply in the wrong, and Allah will suffice you against them, for He alone is All-Hearer the All-Knower". (2:135-7)


Allah has also commanded this prophet to call the creation to singling Him out with oneness and uniqueness through the establishment of justice. He says:

"Say [O Muhammad], "O People of the Book, come unto that tenet which we and you hold in common: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall not associate partners with Him, and that we shall not take human beings for our lords beside Allah". And if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims". (3:64)

Almighty Allah also said, "And it is not given to mortal man that Allah should speak unto him unless [it is] by revelation or from behind a veil". (42:51)

"It is not conceivable that a human being unto whom Allah had granted revelation, and sound judgement, and prophethood should thereafter have said unto people, "Worship none beside Allah", but rather [did he exhort them], "Become men of Allah by spreading knowledge of the divine writ, and by your own deep study [thereof]." And neither did he bid you to take the angels and the prophets for your lords: [for] would he bid you to deny the truth after you have surrendered yourselves unto Allah" (3:79-80)

Allah has ordered His last Messenger (saw) to direct his prayer and pilgrimage towards His sacred house built by the father of the prophets and the imaam of the true monotheist believers, Ibraaheem. Allah had also ordered that the nation of the last messenger be a just one, nor exaggerating the status of the prophets so as to make them equal to their Creator or bestowing on them features solely possessed by Him. Equally this person did not disregard them in a similar way to those who belittled, disobeyed and then harmed them. Instead, the members of this nation respected, aided and believed in the prophets' message. Moreover this nation had obeyed, followed, trusted, loved and extolled the prophets themselves. They had only worshipped Allah, placing trust and taking refuge in Him alone as sincere and true monotheists.

Muhammad's (saw) nation was also just in their sharee'ah. They proclaim their adherence to Allah's commandments and prohibitions. They say that Allah had prohibited the sons of Israa'eel from what He allowed earlier for Israa'eel himself, and He made lawful through the Messiah what was previously prohibited to the sons of Israa'eel. In both analogies Allah orders and his servants hear and obey. Anyone else, apart from Allah's prophets and messengers, possess no mandate to change the religion of Allah, nor power to innovate in the religion what He did not allow. The prophets' mandate is to deliver the message of Allah. To Him alone belongs the creations and authority. If none is able to create then none should rule but Him.

"Judgement rests with Allah alone - He has ordained that you should worship none but Him: this is the [one] ever-true faith; but most people know it not". (12:40)

This nation is one the middle way in matters of purity and impurity, in matters of lawful and prohibited, and also in matters of morals. They have neither relied solely on harshness or on tenderness. Instead, they treated the enemies of Allah with severity and those who rely on Him with mercy, and they speak of the Messiah that which the Lord and the disciples of the Messiah say of him. They neither follow the innovations of those who surpassed the limit of his admiration, nor those who had neglected him completely.

What triggered my desire to write to the Chief of his people and religion, is that came to my knowledge of his esteem, genuine interest in religion, and love for knowledge. It had also come to my attention the impression and praise of the Shaykh Abul-'Abbas al-Maqdisi, for the fine behaviour and enthusiasm of the King and the good manner of his clergy. We are indeed a benevolent people, and wish that Allah may grant you the best reward of this life and the next. And since one of the greatest worships was the advice to fellow humans, as it was the occupation of the prophets, then there is nothing greater than the advice of men to their duties towards Allah as the Meeting and Reckoning are absolute certainties. Allah says:

"Thus [on Judgement Day] We shall most certainly call to account all those unto whom a [divine] message was sent, and We shall most certainly call to account the message bearers". (7:6)

This life is but a lowly pursuit of leadership and wealth and its reality is worthless. This pursuit of leadership will eventually lead one to the fate of the Pharaoh whom Allah had drowned in the water out of vengeance. Similarly, the blind pursuit of wealth shall lead one on a fate akin to that of Korah. Allah had caused the earth to engulf him, and that he is being punished in it until the Day of Reckoning as a result of the harm he instigated against the prophet of Allah, Moosa.

When viewing the commandments of the Messiah, the prophets before him and those after, one sees common themes running throughout. These themes are the insistence on the worship of Allah, preparation for the Day of Judgement, and distancing oneself from excessive enjoyment of this life. Therefore I saw that there is nothing more urgent or better than to present to the King the call to the worship that pleases Allah; and, in reminding him about areas of knowledge and religion without indulging in details, as they are those matters which are the branches of the fundamentals. You [referring to the King] know that the religion of Allah cannot be derived from one's desires or from the tradition of fathers and community. Instead, the wise should exercise his reason regarding what the prophets came with and what the distinguished people had agreed on. Even if that wise human was not able to publicly proclaim his conversion to the correct belief and fine action, he should persevere and Allah will reward him accordingly.

It was always my habit to write to the leaders whom I felt possessed a genuine desire for knowledge and good work. I have even considered travelling to Cyprus, as I like to treat the ruler in accordance with the degree of his submission to Allah's commandments.

When the leader of the Tatars, Qazan came with his followers to Damascus, he claimed a false conversion to Islaam. Yet his behaviour and that of his subordinates were a testimony to their abandonment of Allah's commands. I have met them all in one famous gathering, the news of which became widespread. On that occasion we humiliated him. Amongst his courtiers was the Christian chief of the castle of Sees (2). This chief was never respected or honoured in the company of Qazan, but rather treated as an ignorant minor. Furthermore, others of the circle of Qazan knew that man's bad intentions and how we tried to commit you deceivingly into a war with the Tatars. Nevertheless, our position had never changed towards the Christians. I have always called for treating them with justice and defending them when attacked.

It is also common knowledge the content of my correspondence with the Tatars and my request for the release of prisoners of war. Yet their rulers agreed to release Muslim prisoners only and retain the Christians prisoners from Jerusalem. I had refused such a reply and insisted on the release of all prisoners of war including Jews and Christians, whom are of the people of our dhimmah3. This demand was granted to me, and this is our good work and reward is sought solely from Allah.

It is common knowledge to all that even those prisoners that we have under our hands are in fact treated justly and mercifully. This was indeed one of the recommendations of the Seal of Prophets during his last days on this earth:

"Take good care of your prayers and those under your domain".

Allah, the Exalted in Might, said "And who give food - however great be their own want of it - unto the needy and the orphan and the captive". (76:8)

The Tatars as I have mentioned, had proclaimed their conversion to this religion, yet we never concur with their hypocrisy or stayed silent when viewing their mistakes. Instead we made it very clear to them our objection to their transgressions and deviations from Islaam, that obliges waging Jihaad against them. When the army returned to Egypt and received the news about the immorality and anti-religious activities of this cursed group (Tatar Army), they came out, all these armies of Allah, and their size was great and whose numbers filled the valleys. This great force that came prepared with Eemaan, sincerity and arms, was fortified by the angels through whom Allah still aids his truthful nation. Their enemies were surpassed, defeated and dazzled. Thus, Allah had completed His favour and aided His servants and thereby promoted the glory of Islaam, a religion of ascendance, leaving their enemies in disarray and anguish. The Prophet (saw) said,

"Allah will send this nation at the helm of every century he who will revive its religion".

The King, as I am sure, is well acquainted with the story of the deputation of Najran's Christians who came to Prophet Muhammad (saw). The Prophet invited them to Islaam, and they asked him about the Messiah. They debated with him, and when their arguments were soundly beaten they resorted to slippery ways and deceitful tactics, until the Prophet was commanded to invite them to Mubahalah.4:

"And if anyone should argue with you about this [truth] after all the knowledge that has come unto you, say: "Come, let us summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves; and then let us pray [together] humbly and ardently, and let us invoke Allah's curse upon those [of us] who are telling a lie". (3:61)

The deputation consulted among itself reaching an agreement based on their fear of the consequences and saying, "You know fully that he is a Prophet, and none has ever succeeded when taken up a prophet's challenge of a Mubahala", and so they paid the jizyah5.

The Prophet Muhammad (saw) had sent a letter to Caesar, the king of the Christians from Syria to Constantinople. This king was a noble man and he knew when reading the letter, of the authenticity of Muhammad's (saw) prophethood as prophesied by the Messiah and promised by Ibraaheem to Isma'eel. Caesar then urged his people to honour the Prophet's ambassador and he held the letter, kissed it and put it on his eyes, saying, "If it was not for this kingdom and rule, I would have loved to go to him and wash his feet".

The Ashamah Negus was another noble Christian king. He had met the migrant believers in Abyssinia and migrated himself to Allah as a truthful believer, crying at the recitation of Soorah Maryam and saying, "By God, these words and those which were revealed to Moosa are rays of light which have radiated from the same source!" Ashamah Negus had also sent his son, among others of his people, to the Prophet (saw), and was prayed upon by the Prophet when he died.

In the Seerah of the Prophet of Allah Muhammad (saw), many examples are to be found of his equitable and honourable treatment towards the Christians. Whoever embraced Islaam from amongst them became one of Muhammad's (saw) nation with all subsequent obligations and responsibilities. He indeed is liable to be rewarded twice, one for his faith in 'Eesaa and the other for faith in Muhammad (saw). He who did not believe, on the other hand, was liable to be fought, as Allah instructed,

"Fight against those who - despite having been vouchsafed revelation - do not believe either in Allah or the Last Day, and do not consider forbidden that which Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not follow the religion of truth [Which, Allah has enjoined upon them] till they [agree to] pay the jizyah with a willing submission, and feel themselves subdued". (9:29)

I ask you, Oh King! Has the Messiah, 'alayhis salaam, or indeed did the disciples after him, call for the struggle against our nation? How could you then make lawful the spilling of blood, seizure of women and confiscation of land without any justification? Does he not know that we have a great number of protected people of dhimmah resident in our lands, under our authority, protected and safe?

How is it then that our Muslim brothers are treated in a way that is unacceptable to people of religion and honour? I do not, however, accuse the King, his brothers and family directly, as I know of the hospitality and good spirit that Abul-'Abbas was received with and his acknowledgement and praise of it. Yet, are not our Muslim prisoners jaild at his pleasure and under his rule? And have not the commandments of the Messiah and the rest of the prophets prohibited acts of castigation and enjoined acts of good will? Furthermore, how can the treacherous way our prisoners were captured be justified and treachery is forbidden in all religions, sects and wise ways. How can you render lawful for yourselves an act of deceit? Are you not afraid that Muslims will reward you in a similar way, and Allah will be their helper and guide?

Let me tell the King that the Muslims are already in preparation for Jihaad and strenuous struggle against the Tatars, and they are returning to their Lord and pursuing His Pleasure. Moreover, those princes ruling the coastal outposts who are increasing in number and authority are staunch believers. Let me tell the King that, among the Muslims are many virtuous people whose prayers are not refused and whose requests are not denied and whose anger does Allah avenge! Indeed, the Tatars are an example of a people who had outraged the Muslims, and although they were great in number, Allah had placed His Wrath upon them and they were afflicted in numerous ways. Is it then suitable, Oh King, that a people who border Muslims on many frontiers to treat them in this way? A way that is unacceptable by the wise, be it Muslims or not.

I would like to remind the King that those lands occupied on the seashore, and ever Cyprus itself, had been Muslim-held until less than 300 years ago. I would like to also remind that the Prophet of Allah (saw) had promised that a group of Muslims would be aided until the Day of Reckoning. Does the King not think that Allah is able to assist those wrongly and oppressively imprisoned in the King's lands, and that He can avenge them as He has done for others? Or is the King safe from a Muslim reawakening that will return to them what they had lost? We will treat with kindness those who do the same to us, and Allah shall succour him who is transgressed upon.

Such a renaissance for Muslims is not a difficult matter to reoccur. I am now writing in the noblest manner in order to assist in directing to the truth and the way that is best. If the King has among his advisors wise men whose judgement and sincerity he trust, then he should consult with them on the realities of knowledge and origins of religions. He should not be satisfied being a part of those blind following Christians, who hear not, understand not and they are like the lead animals and even worse.

This endeavour can be achieved by relying upon Allah and seeking His guidance. The King should say, "O Allah! Show me truth so plainly and assist me to follow it, and show me falsehood for what it is and guide me to keep away from it, and make the two extremes very distinct as not to follow desire and be misguided". The King should say, "O Allah! The Lord of Jibra'eel, Mikayeel and Israfeel6, the Originator of the Heavens and Earth, the All-Knowing of the seen and the unseen, You are the Judge between your servants in their disagreements. Guide me, O Allah, to the truth with your grace for You guide who You will to the straight path!"

What I wish to convey unto the King, are my hopes for his well-being and benefit in this life and the next. These hopes are two things, one personal and the other general. On a personal note, I wish for him to grasp knowledge and religion, for truth to unveil before his eyes and for doubt to disappear. I wish for him to worship Allah, according to His Command, for it is better than rule over the whole earth. Indeed, this is what the Messiah was sent with and what his disciples were taught. The second is for his benefit and that of the Muslims in his lands in general. This can be attained through his help to our prisoners and commanding his people to treat them with kindness and aid their release. Truly, the harm incurred on our prisoners will stain his reputation and inflame Muslims. Therefore, helping the release of those prisoners would be a good deed for the King in his own religion, and as the religion of Allah testifies. Furthermore, it would be a sign of goodwill towards the Muslims, and indeed the Messiah was the greatest caller to this way of behaviour.

It is surprising that the Christians are taking as prisoners a group of people through treachery or not, who did not even fight them. Has not the Messiah proclaimed: Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also? It can then be assumed that the more prisoners held, and the longer that they are held for, the more invoking of Allah's Wrath is attempted. How can one be silent about the Muslim prisoners in Cyprus, when the majority are weak and poor and have no one to speak on their behalf?

The religion of Islaam commands aid towards the poor and the weak. The King has the ability and an obligation to assist in this regard more than most, especially as the Messiah instructs this in the Bible, calling for an encompassing mercy and general goodwill by all towards all, akin to the work of the sun and the rain.

There have always been amongst the Christians those at an advantage in knowledge and religion. Many of the rulers, the clergy and the general public recognise parts of the truth and aim to follow it. This group know the status of Islaam and its people where many do not, and as a result treat Muslims equitably. Indeed many are the sayings of the prophets and pious regarding the virtue of releasing the imprisoned and freeing the oppressed. In short, the King is bound to see the fruits of his labour in this regard. It is of note how the Christians, leaders and general public, who live in Muslim lands, far outnumber Muslims living in your own country. Yet at the same time, we do not seek our prisoners for our own lack of number, neither is it out of our dire need for them. Rather we seek the reward of Allah, the Exalted, and His Pleasure on the Day when He shall recompense the truthful and He shall not fail the pious.

It was Abul-'Abas, the carrier of this message who had informed of the good attributes of the King and his brother amongst us, and my message was written after this knowledge. I write to the King, sensing his eagerness for the truth, and his search for knowledge and deen, as I am one of the representatives of the Messiah and the rest of the prophets, advising the rulers and directing them to guidance. Indeed, the nation of Muhammad (saw) is the best nation, raised for mankind, as they want for the whole of creation the best state in this life and the next. This nation enjoins good, forbids evil and calls mankind to Allah and assists them in the affairs of their life and their hereafter. If any information defiling Muslims or deeming their religion has reached the King, then it is either a lie or a misinterpretation of a condition. In fact, rarely is such information true, that some oppression, sins or vice were viewed within Muslim lands. Yet the fact remains that although every nation will possess some sickness of one type or another, evil when found amongst Muslims, is much less than that found amongst others, and their merit and righteousness is unequalled by any.

The King and most wise men know that the majority of the Christians are non-adherents to the commands of the Messiah, his disciples or even the letters of Paul and other saints. A detailed look will show that what they have of Christianity is but wine-drinking, swine eating, glorifying the cross and other innovated rites that were never commanded by Allah. Some even render lawful what the Almighty had forbidden and these are things that cannot be disputed. They dispute over what we have of prophecies. It is of the authentic speech of the truthful and believed messenger of Allah, Muhammad (saw), that the Messiah, 'Eesaa, the son of Maryam, will descend in our land by the white minaret in Damascus, his hands placed on the shoulders of two angels. He will break the cross, kill swine, impose the jizyah and not accept from any a belief save Islaam. He will kill the anti-Christ, the one-eyed Dajjaal of evil whom the Jews will follow. The Messiah 'Eesaa, the son of Maryam, will then summon the Muslims for war with the Jews until the tree and the stone are made to speak to the Muslim, informing of a Jew's hideout, urging his killing. Allah will then avenge the Messiah, the son of Maryam, the Messiah of Truth, against the Jews for the harm they inflicted upon him and their rejection of him when he was sent to them.

What is clear is that, all who have done good towards the Muslims and leaned towards them, were never thereafter harmed by them. Indeed the result of such work is good and a lasting relationship repaying the extent of service received. Allah says

"And so, he who shall have done an atom's weight of good, shall see it; and he who shall have done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it". (99:7-8)

I conclude my letter by requesting aid to Shaykh Abul-'Abas and assistance to all of the prisoners. I request that none be harmed or forced to change his belief. When this is achieved, the King shall see the good result of his good act. The King knows of my good intentions towards him, as Allah the Almighty demands it of us. We, the Muslims, are instructed to seek good for all, show sympathy to all of His creation, and call them to the way of Allah and His Religion, thereby protecting them from the evils of the devils and humans.

Allah alone is able to guide the King in his responsible position, and to direct him for what is better for him. All praise is due to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, and may His Peace and Blessings be upon the messengers and prophets - especially Muhammad the final messenger. Peace be upon them all.

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Sacchetto Boutique
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Sacchetto Boutique » March 29th, 2013, 10:31 am

Muslims do not worship Muhammad (saws). He is special to muslims because he is the last prophet. All the prophets from Adam till Muhammad (saws) were all special in the sense, they were all honest, decent, good people that Allah chose to deliver his word to mankind. They ALL preached one thing, the oneness of God. Muslims do not accept information from any other "holy" book except the Quran bc the message/ translation etc has been altered with time. The quran remains in the original form and in its original TEXT. It is people who, through translation, alter its meaning. Everyday, there are muslims who learn to recite the quran from memory in the language it was revealed so it will always remain. It can never be destroyed.

Muhammad (saws) is special to us bc he is the perfect example that muslims must follow. Once you have accepted that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his servant and messenger it means that you are ready, willing and able to follow the way the prophet lived his life.

It is mankind who put a face to jesus, moses and all other prophets. Muslims are supposed to defend Allah, our prophets and the quran so obviously, we will take any blasmphemy and neg comment about any of those listed, personally.

Many non-muslims love to read and interpret one line in the quran and make judgements. Muslims have faith and we have the belief that what is in the quran is the truth.

I personally, do not need "proof"...I believe in my heart n soul, that islam is the religion for ME n bc of that, it matters not who thinks I am foolish to believe in it. We will all see when judgement day comes.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 29th, 2013, 10:54 am

I am glad to see AdamB is progressing from totally avoiding a question to muddling an answer to now the logical fallacy of argumentum verbosium. I hope in time he will give a cogent answer.


Anyways, please reflect on the significance of today's remembrance the day Jesus suffered and died under the wrath of the Father for the sins of those who would believe in Him. Do you think your sins deserved the punishment Jesus received?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » March 29th, 2013, 11:07 am

The father had 'wrath'? Why couldnt he control it? Is he limited in that sense? There are people who suffered more than jesus. Tortured for weeks, months, years; more than Jesus was tortured. Why all the emphasis on Jesus? Do they not matter?

Also, if he died for our sins, and lived back, what was point?

Jesus would have to suffer ten times what he did, to pay for my sins.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 29th, 2013, 11:37 am

I saw your comment before about us limiting God, but that is not true in case of the God of the Bible because He sets out parameters by which he operates, He limits Himself.

You are right there are people who suffered more physically than Jesus, historians estimate more than 2000 crucifictions occurred around that time, even subsequent Christians were persecuted much more Him. But on the night before, Jesus sweated blood and asked the Father that "this cup" pass from Him. A cursory Old Testament study would show that "the cup" is the supernatural wrath from Almighty God that is poured out on sin for eternity in judgement. Jesus being a human substitute acknowledged the insurmountable severity of this act by His sweat of blood (a rare medical occurrence, about 3 recorded cases) and Jesus being God is able to absorb the wrath of the Father, lay down His life, and pick it back up again. This is demonstrates one's death to sin and new birth to life in Christ.

Your sin, my sin, the whole world's sin is able to be borne on the eternally worthy Christ for the punishment we deserve. But one must repent, and put their trust in Christ.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » March 29th, 2013, 12:59 pm

If there are all these different Gods belonging to different religions, could someone tell me why the blueprint for humans is basically the same?

How come, the Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Buddhists, Sat Sai's, Shinto's and so on - all have 2 eyes, 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 feet etc.?

If there are all these different Gods, shouldn't they all have different designs for their followers?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Sacchetto Boutique » March 29th, 2013, 1:33 pm

The Christ Lives on> " And they did not kill Jesus Christ nor did they crucify him; but another was made to appear like him to them".
"But GOD raised the Messiah, Jesus Christ up with his body and soul unto Himself (GOD) and he Jesus Christ is in the heavens and GOD is All Powerful and All Wise
(The Holy Qur'an Chapter 4 Vs#157 - 158)

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby megadoc1 » March 29th, 2013, 1:42 pm

Sacchetto Boutique wrote:The Christ Lives on> " And they did not kill Jesus Christ nor did they crucify him; but another was made to appear like him to them".
"But GOD raised the Messiah, Jesus Christ up with his body and soul unto Himself (GOD) and he Jesus Christ is in the heavens and GOD is All Powerful and All Wise
(The Holy Qur'an Chapter 4 Vs#157 - 158)
so its true then, that Allah deceived Jesus' disciples by making them think Jesus was crucified ? now who would be responsible for the "mess" that followed? is Allah responsible for Christianity? remember ,all the disciples except john(and judas of course) were killed for believing this, why would Allah do this to those who sincerely listened to his prophet Jesus? at this point I think you may have to admit that Allah's "trick" backfired big time!
Last edited by megadoc1 on March 29th, 2013, 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 29th, 2013, 1:54 pm

What if I were to say that now almost 600 years later, Columbus' third journey when he rediscovered Trinidad never happen. He left Spain and spent 3 months in the Canary Islands and came back. I have no multiple eyewitness proof as compared to the multiple ones he has from the resident Amerindians along with artifacts from Trinidad. But hey, an angel told me in a cave recently.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Sacchetto Boutique » March 29th, 2013, 1:55 pm

interesting how the brain works..u read that and deduced that Allah deceived the disciples lol!
Jesus prayed to Allah (God) to be saved and so, another was made to look like him (Jesus). That other person was crucifed. Jesus was taken to heaven.

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megadoc1
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby megadoc1 » March 29th, 2013, 2:08 pm

Sacchetto Boutique wrote:interesting how the brain works..u read that and deduced that Allah deceived the disciples lol!
lol @ what? why would he want to make it look like he crucified Jesus? who did he intend to deceive?
Sacchetto Boutique wrote:Jesus prayed to Allah (God) to be saved and so, another was made to look like him (Jesus). That other person was crucifed. Jesus was taken to heaven.
who told you this? can you show me where you got this information? at least can you tell me who the other person was?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby mamoo_pagal » March 29th, 2013, 2:30 pm

Sacchetto Boutique wrote:interesting how the brain works..u read that and deduced that Allah deceived the disciples lol!
Jesus prayed to Allah (God) to be saved and so, another was made to look like him (Jesus). That other person was crucifed. Jesus was taken to heaven.


sigh............. :|

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Sacchetto Boutique
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Sacchetto Boutique » March 29th, 2013, 3:08 pm

megadoc1 wrote:
Sacchetto Boutique wrote:interesting how the brain works..u read that and deduced that Allah deceived the disciples lol!
lol @ what? why would he want to make it look like he crucified Jesus? who did he intend to deceive?
Sacchetto Boutique wrote:Jesus prayed to Allah (God) to be saved and so, another was made to look like him (Jesus). That other person was crucifed. Jesus was taken to heaven.
who told you this? can you show me where you got this information? at least can you tell me who the other person was?



The Holy Qur'an Chapter 4 Vs#157 - 158

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Sky
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Sky » March 29th, 2013, 3:09 pm

AdamB wrote:
Sky. Backpedalling?? LOL!!! Check my post / response to Habit7 above.


wtf? Where I backpedal?
I understand what you said and asked another question. Typical angry muslim.
And your answer to habit7 still doesn't justify violence, try again. Thas just more angry muslim behaviour.
Allyuh really need bacon in allyuh lives yes

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » March 29th, 2013, 3:12 pm

Turin Shroud 'was created by flash of supernatural light': It couldn't be a medieval forgery, say scientists

By David Wilkes
UPDATED: 19:21 GMT, 21 December 2011


The image on the Turin Shroud could not be the work of medieval forgers but was instead caused by a supernatural ‘flash of light’, according to scientists.

Italian researchers have found evidence that casts doubt on claims that the relic – said to be the burial cloth of Jesus – is a fake and they suggest that it could, after all, be authentic.

Sceptics have long argued that the shroud, a rectangular sheet measuring about 14ft by 3ft, is a forgery dating to medieval times.

Image
Scientists in Italy believe the kind of technology needed to create the Shroud of Turin simply wasn't around at the time that it was created

Scientists from Italy’s National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development spent years trying to replicate the shroud’s markings.

They have concluded only something akin to ultraviolet lasers – far beyond the capability of medieval forgers – could have created them.


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This has led to fresh suggestions that the imprint was indeed created by a huge burst of energy accompanying the Resurrection of Christ.

‘The results show a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,’ the scientists said.


The image of the bearded man on the shroud must therefore have been created by ‘some form of electromagnetic energy (such as a flash of light at short wavelength)’, their report concludes. But it stops short of offering a non-scientific explanation.

Professor Paolo Di Lazzaro, who led the study, said: ‘When one talks about a flash of light being able to colour a piece of linen in the same way as the shroud, discussion inevitably touches on things such as miracles.

‘But as scientists, we were concerned only with verifiable scientific processes. We hope our results can open up a philosophical and theological debate.’
For centuries, people have argued about the authenticity of the shroud, which is kept in a climate-controlled case in Turin cathedral.

One of the most controversial relics in the Christian world, it bears the faint image of a man whose body appears to have nail wounds to the wrists and feet.

Some believe it to be a physical link to Jesus of Nazareth. For others, however, it is nothing more than an elaborate forgery.

In 1988, radiocarbon tests on samples of the shroud at the University of Oxford, the University of

Arizona, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology dated the cloth to the Middle Ages, between 1260 and 1390.

Those tests have been disputed on the basis that they were contaminated by fibres from cloth used to repair the shroud when it was damaged by fire in the Middle Ages.

More recently, further doubt was cast on its authenticity when Israeli archaeologists uncovered the first known burial shroud in Jerusalem from the time of the Crucifixion.

Its weave and design are completely different from the Turin Shroud, they said.

The Jerusalem shroud has a simple two-way weave – but the twill weave used on the Turin Shroud was introduced more than 1,000 years after Christ lived.

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WHAT IS THE TURIN SHROUD?

The Vatican owns the Turin shroud, and hails the relic as an exploration of the ‘darkest mystery of faith’.

But the church has shied away from any definitive statement over whether the shroud - which is supposed to have formed Christ's burial robe - is real.

The Shroud is thought to have travelled widely before it was brought to France in the 14th century by a Crusader.

It was kept in a French convent for years - by nuns who patched it, and where it was damaged by fire.

The Shroud was given to the Turin Archbishop in 1578 by the Duke of Savoy and has been kept in the Cathedral ever since.

Carbon dating tests in 1988 dated it from between 1260 and 1390 - implying it was a fake.

Scientists have since claimed that contamination over the ages from patches, water damage and fire, was not taken sufficiently into account In 1999, two Israeli scientists said plant pollen found on the Shroud supported the view that it comes from the Holy Land.

There have been numerous calls for further testing but the Vatican has always refused.

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