The Religion Discussion

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

adamB, why should people beat her?
wouldnt God provide a perfectly just punishment for her in the hereafter?
Why should man have to help God with his punishment program?

[Daran]

AdamB, wht the flying f*ck is wrong with you.....hope Allah has a special place for you in hell.

[Rooki3]

i doh think AdamB read it, he prolly aint realise she was raped

[MG Man]

based on his way of thinking, she probably looked for it

[Habit7]

no that's creation science. Your myopia is showing. Real science would not suggest a "He" unless there was empirical evidence, which there isn't.

What empirical evidence will warrant a proof in 'your view in which you interpret the world' for a creator being.

any empirical evidence will be proof.

Since we are using empirical evidence as the standard:

How would you explain through empirical science, that God doesn't exist? Please, be thorough.

[MG Man]

simple: there is no evidence to indicate existence of such

[Habit7]

Acknowledged, but I would love to hear Duane's opinion.

[metalgear2095]

i doh think AdamB read it, he prolly aint realise she was raped

It's a girl. Females ain't worth much. Only their virginity worth anything in Islam

[nareshseep]

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

no that's creation science. Your myopia is showing. Real science would not suggest a "He" unless there was empirical evidence, which there isn't.

What empirical evidence will warrant a proof in 'your view in which you interpret the world' for a creator being.

any empirical evidence will be proof.

Since we are using empirical evidence as the standard:

How would you explain through empirical science, that God doesn't exist? Please, be thorough.

what???!!!

there is no empirical evidence that God doesn't exist and there is no empirical evidence of existence either. Those are facts.

Do you have empirical evidence that Leprechauns DO NOT exist?

[nareshseep]

Yeah its really unfortunate when people are not intellectually accurate.
Like when they post a meme bashing creationism yet including the scientifically debunked Haeckel's Diagram in it.

Noted evolutionist Stephen Gould wrote the following regarding Ernst Haeckel's work in a March 2000 issue of Natural History:
"Haeckel’s forceful, eminently comprehensible, if not always accurate, books appeared in all major languages and surely exerted more influence than the works of any other scientist, including Darwin…in convincing people throughout the world about the validity of evolution... Haeckel had exaggerated the similarities [between embryos of different species] by idealizations and omissions. He also, in some cases — in a procedure that can only be called fraudulent — simply copied the same figure over and over again.…Haeckel’s drawings never fooled expert embryologists, who recognized his fudgings right from the start. Haeckel’s drawings, despite their noted inaccuracies, entered into the most impenetrable and permanent of all quasi-scientific literatures: standard student textbooks of biology... Once ensconced in textbooks, misinformation becomes cocooned and effectively permanent, because…textbooks copy from previous texts.... [W]e do, I think, have the right to be both astonished and ashamed by the century of mindless recycling that has led to the persistence of these drawings in a large number, if not a majority, of modern textbooks. Sounds familiar?

Note the words in bold. This is true for all textbooks even the religious textbooks, repeat a lie and pretty soon its a fact. It is more difficult for grown man to unlearn what is wrong than to learn what is correct. Evidence of such lies here in.

[Habit7]

Well, you are the one that requires empirical evidence to believe anything exists, I am just going down that road with you.

I remember a little unknown movie that you referenced before, Contact, probably only you and I may have watched it. Ellie Arroway says that she loves her father but cannot prove it scientifically.

Do you love your wife/girlfriend/children/parents, if so how can you prove it to me empirically?

[nareshseep]

Well, you are the one that requires empirical evidence to believe anything exists, I am just going down that road with you.

I remember a little unknown movie that you referenced before, Contact, probably only you and I may have watched it. Ellie Arroway says that she loves her father but cannot prove it scientifically.

Do you love your wife/girlfriend/children/parents, if so how can you prove it to me empirically?

Yes I need evidence. Its the logical thing to do. If we didn't we will still be believing in witches. and the killing folks for things we cannot understand. Glad for the company though.
To your second question I would say yes. Proof lies in what I do for them. I mean I will not see that they don't have food and not provide for them. This is something that your good friend will not provide to his starving worshipers.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Well, you are the one that requires empirical evidence to believe anything exists, I am just going down that road with you.

so you DON'T need empirical evidence to believe anything exists???

You didn't answer my previous question:
Do you have empirical evidence that Leprechauns DO NOT exist?

I remember a little unknown movie that you referenced before, Contact, probably only you and I may have watched it. Ellie Arroway says that she loves her father but cannot prove it scientifically.

Do you love your wife/girlfriend/children/parents, if so how can you prove it to me empirically?

maybe SHE can't prove it scientifically, doesn't mean it cannot be proven.

love noun \ˈləv\

Definition of LOVE
(1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child>
(2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers
(3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests

Love is a feeling. Just like "happy" or "angry" are feelings. They can be tested and observed.
I am attracted to my wife and I feel love and show affection for both my wife and child. I love my parents.
I feel love for them all.

I also show love in the actions that I do for them, caring etc. One can test and observe my actions and emotional responses to the people I love.

I am not sure what you interpreted the statement in the movie to mean, but while quantity or quality of love may seem like an intangible thing it is as real as pain.

"At the cognitive level, cognitive neuroscience addresses the questions of how psychological functions are produced by neural circuitry. The emergence of powerful new measurement techniques such as neuroimaging (e.g., fMRI, PET, SPECT), electrophysiology, and human genetic analysis combined with sophisticated experimental techniques from cognitive psychology allows neuroscientists and psychologists to address abstract questions such as how human cognition and emotion are mapped to specific neural substrates."

Besides just being a personal feeling, one can observe brainwaves change frequency when feelings of love, pain, happiness, sadness, anger etc are felt by the patient. So to answer your question directly, YES! If I were hooked up to a machine that checks brain activity and waves, when I show love for my wife or child or friends or family, it can be recorded and observed.

What was your point?

[Habit7]

Nice so...
We can empirically measure brain activity, no quarrels there. We can even empirically measure brain activity while feeling love.

Just to finish quote you except from wikipedia "Ultimately neuroscientists would like to understand every aspect of the nervous system, including how it works, how it develops, how it malfunctions, and how it can be altered or repaired."

So you say your actions and your emotions prove your love, could action and emotions prove other things?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ yes "would like to understand" - that is the very nature of science. Learning about the world around us. Not claiming "that's the way it is because it says so in this book".

"Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

So you say your actions and your emotions prove your love,

in terms of: I love my child so I hug him and take care of him.

could action and emotions prove other things?

other things such as?

[hong kong phooey]

why can't god speak to another man
why cant god come to earth again
if he is all powerful he can do what he wants
forget what a book says for a few mins , use common sense, these books have been translated and interpreted by hundreds of different people through the years who all put their own twist to it.
Why do you think there are so many different sects in each religious group, is it because along the lines people interpreted things differently? Was it for financial gains?
why don't you all compare the books and see how many similarities there is. all have a set of guidelines as to how we should live and treat others, respect others. Forget about the petty things like what people eat, drink. How you were brought up determines what you think is clean or taboo, for most of us in the west eating dog is horrible, but in china they eat it like we eat chicken. Same as camel milk or goats milk . A few years ago most trinis would not even go near goats milk where on the sister isle it was accepted, just because the size of the island cows was readily available

i feel for that girl she could not prevent her father from raping her, how could she have defended

[DFC]

why can't god speak to another man
why cant god come to earth again
if he is all powerful he can do what he wants
forget what a book says for a few mins , use common sense, these books have been translated and interpreted by hundreds of different people through the years who all put their own twist to it.
Why do you think there are so many different sects in each religious group, is it because along the lines people interpreted things differently? Was it for financial gains?
why don't you all compare the books and see how many similarities there is. all have a set of guidelines as to how we should live and treat others, respect others. Forget about the petty things like what people eat, drink. How you were brought up determines what you think is clean or taboo, for most of us in the west eating dog is horrible, but in china they eat it like we eat chicken. Same as camel milk or goats milk . A few years ago most trinis would not even go near goats milk where on the sister isle it was accepted, just because the size of the island cows was readily available

i feel for that girl she could not prevent her father from raping her, how could she have defended

Why cant we all just get along eh?


Like this coulple --->





Interacial, interspecies love.

[Habit7]

So you say your actions and your emotions prove your love,

in terms of: I love my child so I hug him and take care of him.

Is that empirical science? Because to some degree the same could be done by his teacher and she might not say she loves him.

[AdamB]

adamB, why should people beat her?
wouldnt God provide a perfectly just punishment for her in the hereafter?
Why should man have to help God with his punishment program?

Punishment in this word is:
1. Less severe than that of the hereafter.
2. Atonement of sins (meaning that there will be no further punishment in the hereafter).
3. Beneficial in curbing the ills of society.
4. Leads to order in the society.
5. The result of breaking laws (cause and effect).

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

So you say your actions and your emotions prove your love,

in terms of: I love my child so I hug him and take care of him.

Is that empirical science? Because to some degree the same could be done by his teacher and she might not say she loves him.

To some degree yes, but with varying degrees of the emotion. Her brainwave frequency would be different from mine when hugging him - if you wanted to test that.

What is your point?

[DFC]

adamB, why should people beat her?
wouldnt God provide a perfectly just punishment for her in the hereafter?
Why should man have to help God with his punishment program?

Punishment in this word is:
1. Less severe than that of the hereafter.
2. Atonement of sins (meaning that there will be no further punishment in the hereafter).
3. Beneficial in curbing the ills of society.
4. Leads to order in the society.
5. The result of breaking laws (cause and effect).

http://www.examiner.com/article/saudi-arabia-islamic-cleric-rapes-tortures-kills-daughter-pays-fine

Saudi Arabia: Islamic cleric rapes, tortures, kills daughter, pays fine.




In Saudi Arabia an Islamic cleric who admits to raping, torturing and killing his daughter received a fine but no jail time for his heinous crime. Saudi media reports that the father paid 200,000 riyals ($50,000 US) in “blood money” for his crime, but will not be required to serve any time in prison.

In response to the heinous crime, and lack of justice for five-year old victim Lama al-Ghamdi, the women's rights activist Manal al-Sharif and others issued a press release on Feb 2, and launched a Twitter campaign using the hashtags #AnaLama (Arabic for "I am Lama") and #IamLama, demanding legislation criminalizing violence against women and children.

Fayhan al-Ghamdi, the victims father and a popular Islamic preacher who has made numerous television appearances promoting Islam, confessed to the heinous crime. Ghamdi told Saudi officials he used cables and a cane on his five-year-old daughter, leaving her with multiple injuries, including a crushed skull, broken ribs and left arm, extensive bruising and burns. In addition, one of Lama’s fingernails had been torn off. Hospital staff reports the child’s rectum had been torn open and the abuser had attempted to burn it closed.

Reports indicate the father had doubted his five-year old daughter's virginity.

Lama al-Ghamdi died last October. The amount her father was fined for the brutal rape, torture and murder, would have been doubled if Lama had been male. In Saudi Arabia, Islamic law is interpreted to be that a father cannot be executed for murdering his children, nor can husbands be executed for murdering their wives.

Human rights activists point out that judicial leniency towards male abusers and murderers reflects the highly problematic nature of the male guardianship system in Saudi Arabia. Currently all women in Saudi Arabia are considered minors, and all are automatically assigned to the care and judgment of their most immediate male relative. This system of male guardianship gives the male relatives the power to sell girls legally into child marriages and to ban adult women from work, travel and obtaining medical operations.

[DFC]

Egypt: Islamic cleric justifies rape for female protesters

http://www.examiner.com/article/egypt-islamic-cleric-justifies-rape-for-female-protesters

In Egypt a popular Muslim cleric claims that the recent rape and sexual assault of female protesters in Cairo’s Tahrir Square is justified.

Ahmad Mahmoud Abdullah, also known as Abu Islam, is a prominent Salafi preacher who has justified the rape and sexual assault of female protesters by making the absurd claim that women protesters “are going to Tahrir Square because they want to be raped.” The ultraconservative Islamic cleric made his controversial claims in a video posted online Wednesday, Feb. 6.

Justifying a string of mob sexual assaults on women protesters in Cairo's Tahrir Square, and depicting the victims as loose women, the ultraconservative cleric and popular television personality said:

"They are going there to get raped ... These are devils named women ... They speak with no femininity, no morals, no fear ... Learn from Muslim women, be Muslims."

Corresponding to a wave of unrest since late January, sexual assaults on women protesters have spiked in Egypt, with at least 19 reported on Jan. 25 alone. In many cases, mobs stripped women, penetrating them with knives and other objects, according to reports.

Earlier this week Amnesty International released a briefing highlighting sexual violence against female protesters in Egypt, noting:

“Several women’s rights activists and others believe that the sexual assaults on women are organized and co-ordinated — possibly by state actors — with the aim of silencing them, excluding them from public spaces and the political events shaping Egypt’s future, and breaking the resistance of the opposition...”

In Egypt, Muslim hard-liners have reacted with fury to protests against Islamist President Mohammad Mursi since late January. Critics claim the Muslim Brotherhood is sending operatives into the protests to sexually harass and assault women demonstrating against the government.




Something WRONG with allyuh Adamb.
Seriously.

[Habit7]

So you say your actions and your emotions prove your love,

in terms of: I love my child so I hug him and take care of him.

Is that empirical science? Because to some degree the same could be done by his teacher and she might not say she loves him.

To some degree yes, but with varying degrees of the emotion. Her brainwave frequency would be different from mine when hugging him.

No she can mimic it by remembering her son.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ it wouldn't be genuine and if she did manage to match the emotion she'd have for her own son with someone who wasn't her son then that could be classified as delusional.

What is your point though?

[metalgear2095]

Egypt: Islamic cleric justifies rape for female protesters

http://www.examiner.com/article/egypt-islamic-cleric-justifies-rape-for-female-protesters

In Egypt a popular Muslim cleric claims that the recent rape and sexual assault of female protesters in Cairo’s Tahrir Square is justified.

Ahmad Mahmoud Abdullah, also known as Abu Islam, is a prominent Salafi preacher who has justified the rape and sexual assault of female protesters by making the absurd claim that women protesters “are going to Tahrir Square because they want to be raped.” The ultraconservative Islamic cleric made his controversial claims in a video posted online Wednesday, Feb. 6.

Justifying a string of mob sexual assaults on women protesters in Cairo's Tahrir Square, and depicting the victims as loose women, the ultraconservative cleric and popular television personality said:

"They are going there to get raped ... These are devils named women ... They speak with no femininity, no morals, no fear ... Learn from Muslim women, be Muslims."

Corresponding to a wave of unrest since late January, sexual assaults on women protesters have spiked in Egypt, with at least 19 reported on Jan. 25 alone. In many cases, mobs stripped women, penetrating them with knives and other objects, according to reports.

Earlier this week Amnesty International released a briefing highlighting sexual violence against female protesters in Egypt, noting:

“Several women’s rights activists and others believe that the sexual assaults on women are organized and co-ordinated — possibly by state actors — with the aim of silencing them, excluding them from public spaces and the political events shaping Egypt’s future, and breaking the resistance of the opposition...”

In Egypt, Muslim hard-liners have reacted with fury to protests against Islamist President Mohammad Mursi since late January. Critics claim the Muslim Brotherhood is sending operatives into the protests to sexually harass and assault women demonstrating against the government.




Something WRONG with allyuh Adamb.
Seriously.

Its not them. Its the media. Really

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

adamB, why should people beat her?
wouldnt God provide a perfectly just punishment for her in the hereafter?
Why should man have to help God with his punishment program?

Punishment in this word is:
1. Less severe than that of the hereafter.
2. Atonement of sins (meaning that there will be no further punishment in the hereafter).
3. Beneficial in curbing the ills of society.
4. Leads to order in the society.
5. The result of breaking laws (cause and effect).

what is the purpose of having punishment in the hereafter then?

So therefore the secularists and humanists are right with regards to the ability to have morality and judgement without the need for God?

[Habit7]

I am carrying you on fool's errand.

To ask for empirical evidence for the existence of God is as relevant as asking for evidence to disprove the existence of God. You want to quantify a supernatural being by using natural observations.

Evidence must be interpreted and one's interpretation is based on their worldview which has its inherent presuppositions. You presuppose that naturalism/materialism is an arbiter of truth. I believe the Bible is the arbiter of truth. You have faith in your system based on your worldview and when your system cannot answer questions by its own parameters, you have faith that someday it will. I likewise have faith in my system based on my worldview, and when my system cannot answer questions, I believe that God knows the answer and will reveal it in time.

To ridicule that I or any other bases my worldview on the Bible (which I believe is a supernatural book) places you at no greater elevation because you only quantify that which is observable, and just because you haven't observed my truth, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Furthermore, when asked, what empirical evidence will warrant proof, you replied "any." Are you placing a requirement of God that is not realistic? Do you want Him to write "I exist" across the sky? Do you want his to appear to in shining glory? How would you know it is true and you are not hallucinating? Please, "any" is not an answer, because a designed and organised universe where repeatable tests can be done to determine empirical truth seems not to be enough for you, so be more specific.

BTW, In my worldview, his actions in creating me and His emotions in loving me to send His Son to die in my place, among other things proves He exists.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ all that to say you have no evidence, just faith and your beliefs?

[Habit7]

I do have some pie charts and graphic projections which proves God, but I only bring that out for the big guns.