The Religion Discussion

[Themightyheads]

when you bounce u toe u bawl oh God, the clouds in the sky not a string to hold them up, trinidad and tobago under sea level yet the water stops at the shores, u wake up in the morning u have breath to breed, all those who dont believe in God i pray u dont die before u know him and that he will open ur eyes to c him soon..... its not religion but relationship

[maj. tom]

lolwut

[Dizzy28]

when you bounce u toe u bawl oh God, the clouds in the sky not a string to hold them up, trinidad and tobago under sea level yet the water stops at the shores, u wake up in the morning u have breath to breed, all those who dont believe in God i pray u dont die before u know him and that he will open ur eyes to c him soon..... its not religion but relationship

Too bad God doesn't teach spelling, grammar and punctuation.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

clouds need strings?

The Torah makes up part of the Bible, and I dont know if the Vedas speak about angels.

I meant if age was a factor of authenticity as you stated

That was in reference to the comparison you made with contradicting views of angels between Judeo-Christianity and Islam. However age by itself it not a substantial factor in authenticity.

well you were the one who said

I know for me I choose the one with the more corroborated truth claims, consistency and set the precedent 600 years before.

also how does the Bible have "the more corroborated truth claims, consistency" over the Qur'an or Gita?

[maj. tom]

[Habit7]

Duane, first of all, I find you not treating with me fairly. You pulled out 'age' out of three parameters I mentioned and wanted me to back up my statement as if I mentioned 'age' alone. Then you are now asking me a question about the other two parameters "corroborated truth claims and consistency" as if I didn't clearly set them out over the last two pages of you asking me questions.

Are you writing a paper or something and allowing me to do your research?

[Habit7]

I guess now we will have to scratch off the high title of "Doctor" we have always called God

Thx maj.tom I think of all your internet memes, this has succeeded in changing my worldview. Now teach me some of the deep stuff so that I can become so enlightened like you.

[maj. tom]

I am really not interested in your affairs. I don't come here to change anyone. Not many people really have free will in the way they think.

[Chimera]

[Habit7]

I am really not interested in your affairs. I don't come here to change anyone. Not many people really have free will in the way they think.

Explain to us this free will you have.

[maj. tom]

I don't have free will.

I guess I could say so much more about a lot of things and your type of thinking, but I really am not here to convince anyone, especially a man who thinks he's right about everything and that creation is 6000 years old, about anything. Live your life however you want, by whatever psychological means that gets you through life. Life isn't easy. Some of your thoughts and ideas and genetic identity may or may not be passed on, but you will die one day and in 100 years after no one will have cared about your existence. So why not try to live in peace here now while you are here and try to improve someone else's world as much as you can?

Every single person you met/going to meet on this earth will know something that you do not know. Try to have an open mind about human behaviour and be tolerant of a new world that demands scrutiny, logic, common sense and fairness over the determinism set by our ancestors just because they did not know better than us. I think if they could see us now they would be proud how far we have come all on our own. And if we were created by a god, maybe his intention was for us to make it on our own and he's proud of us, while leaving us alone.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Duane, first of all, I find you not treating with me fairly. You pulled out 'age' out of three parameters I mentioned and wanted me to back up my statement as if I mentioned 'age' alone. Then you are now asking me a question about the other two parameters "corroborated truth claims and consistency" as if I didn't clearly set them out over the last two pages of you asking me questions.

Are you writing a paper or something and allowing me to do your research?

No, not writing a paper, just trying to see your point if view, though I'm not.

[achillies]

Well I'm late to the party, Duane, what type of answer would satisfy you, if any

We are all different, and as such, one thing might satisfy you, but may not be satisfactory to me, and vice versa

I saw Habit7 try, but then you just 'ups' and change the parameters without really acknowledging what Habit7 wrote, so what are your parameters, really n truly?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I simply want to know what makes you think the Bible is right and the Qur'an is wrong, or the Gita.

Answer it with proof. My preference is only for an answer and that you stop beating around the bush or offering red herrings.

[Habit7]

I don't have free will.

I guess I could say so much more about a lot of things and your type of thinking, but I really am not here to convince anyone, especially a man who thinks he's right about everything and that creation is 6000 years old, about anything. Live your life however you want, by whatever psychological means that gets you through life. Life isn't easy. Some of your thoughts and ideas and genetic identity may or may not be passed on, but you will die one day and in 100 years after no one will have cared about your existence. So why not try to live in peace here now while you are here and try to improve someone else's world as much as you can?

Every single person you met/going to meet on this earth will know something that you do not know. Try to have an open mind about human behaviour and be tolerant of a new world that demands scrutiny, logic, common sense and fairness over the determinism set by our ancestors just because they did not know better than us. I think if they could see us now they would be proud how far we have come all on our own. And if we were created by a god, maybe his intention was for us to make it on our own and he's proud of us, while leaving us alone.

I am sorry if I come off like I am right about everything, I am certainly not. I don't usually engage in religious discussions on the internet because I tend to find it impersonal. But I used to venture from time to time into this thread to see what the talk was. I saw that it was being dominated by one Muslim tuner and him being ridiculed by a-religious tuners and no one was make an apologetic for the true God of the Bible.

While you may encourage me to live my life I surely will. But my life would be very selfish if I don't tell people about the grace I received. I am just one beggar, tell others where to get food.

That message is simply is God is good, we are not. We lie and lust and we think murders and rapists are the bad ones, but in Jesus' sermon on the mount he says, if we hate our brother, we are murders, if we lust, we are adulterers. So God being just, will punish sinners, in hell.
But God being rich in mercy, sent His Son to suffer in the place of those who would believe in Him. So that if one repents and believes in Christ, God will transform their live and give them new everlasting life.

All others will face God judgement, by themselves. You can reject what I say or even PM me for more info, but now having read what I said, God holds you even more accountable now.

[achillies]

I simply want to know what makes you think the Bible is right and the Qur'an is wrong, or the Gita.

Answer it with proof. My preference is only for an answer and that you stop beating around the bush or offering red herrings.

This is why I STUDY the bible, if you want to extend my reasons to saying that other holy books are wrong, lets be clear that this is a distinction you made, and not me.

The bible alone gives an orderly record of Adam and his descendants to the flood, and explanation of why the flood came and what purpose it served in the Divine program, a record of the time immediately following the flood and carries a genealogical line from Adam to Noah to Abraham to the nation of Isreal.T

The messages in the Bible are in harmony from Genesis to Revelation, with 66 books and written by 38 different pens over a period of nearly 2000 years, the writers are in FULL accord, telling the one story.

The very fact that the sins and weaknesses of prophets, Kings and Priests are laid bare in the scriptures, without any animosity or any desire to colour or whiten them indicates fairness and a loyalty to the truth beyond anything, unfavorable truths are not ignored/hidden, Jesus dies between two thieves,, he was betrayed by his own disciples, they all left him and fled, one even denied him with cursing, the humble origins of disciples are stated and it has been innocently declared that when apostles Peter and John spoke, learned hearers could perceive that they were ignorant and un-learned men, they marvelled, and they took knowledge of them.

From the opening statement to the closing one, there is one theme, the divine plan

I will stop here for now, as this is something, because of my studies, I can go on about

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I simply want to know what makes you think the Bible is right and the Qur'an is wrong, or the Gita.

Answer it with proof. My preference is only for an answer and that you stop beating around the bush or offering red herrings.

This is why I STUDY the bible, if you want to extend my reasons to saying that other holy books are wrong, lets be clear that this is a distinction you made, and not me.

The bible alone gives an orderly record of Adam and his descendants to the flood, and explanation of why the flood came and what purpose it served in the Divine program, a record of the time immediately following the flood and carries a genealogical line from Adam to Noah to Abraham to the nation of Isreal.

have you studied the Qur'an and the Gita as well to make an educated choice? Or did you only study the one book you felt was right from the start?

[achillies]

I simply want to know what makes you think the Bible is right and the Qur'an is wrong, or the Gita.

Answer it with proof. My preference is only for an answer and that you stop beating around the bush or offering red herrings.

This is why I STUDY the bible, if you want to extend my reasons to saying that other holy books are wrong, lets be clear that this is a distinction you made, and not me.

The bible alone gives an orderly record of Adam and his descendants to the flood, and explanation of why the flood came and what purpose it served in the Divine program, a record of the time immediately following the flood and carries a genealogical line from Adam to Noah to Abraham to the nation of Isreal.

have you studied the Qur'an and the Gita as well to make an educated choice? Or did you only study the one book you felt was right from the start?

Yes, no and to truly study the bible is not a study of one book/subject

Secondly, are you asking a question, or are you trying to imply an answer from the beginning, your preconceived notions are always shining through with your words.

Which did you study? and do you consider your choice educated?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ Over the years I've read the english version of all three books: The Holy Bible (KJV), The Noble Qur'an and The Bhagavad Gita. I hope to read the Torah in english soon.

I am sure only reading is not studying but I wanted to give all a fair reading.

So you studied the Qur'an in as much detail as you have studied the Bible, impressive!
Tell me, which Surah did you enjoy the most? Have you read any Hadith?

and why are you so preoccupied with what you think are my preconceived notions? Forget about why I am asking the question and just answer it! You should be confident of your answer, not so?

[AdamB]

Achillies,
To study the Quran, you need to study the Arabic language first.

What does/did your study of the bible entail with respect to language?

[AdamB]

^ Over the years I've read the english version of all three books: The Holy Bible (KJV), The Noble Qur'an and The Bhagavad Gita. I hope to read the Torah in english soon.

I am sure only reading is not studying but I wanted to give all a fair reading.

So you studied the Qur'an in as much detail as you have studied the Bible, impressive!
Tell me, which Surah did you enjoy the most? Have you read any Hadith?

and why are you so preoccupied with what you think are my preconceived notions? Forget about why I am asking the question and just answer it! You should be confident of your answer, not so?

The Noble Quran english translation by Khan and Hilalee is the best to use, it includes a little tafsir (explanation of the meaning) with authentic references from hadith as well.

Everything is downloadable / accessible from the internet (shaykh google).

[AdamB]

I don't have free will.

I guess I could say so much more about a lot of things and your type of thinking, but I really am not here to convince anyone, especially a man who thinks he's right about everything and that creation is 6000 years old, about anything. Live your life however you want, by whatever psychological means that gets you through life. Life isn't easy. Some of your thoughts and ideas and genetic identity may or may not be passed on, but you will die one day and in 100 years after no one will have cared about your existence. So why not try to live in peace here now while you are here and try to improve someone else's world as much as you can?

Every single person you met/going to meet on this earth will know something that you do not know. Try to have an open mind about human behaviour and be tolerant of a new world that demands scrutiny, logic, common sense and fairness over the determinism set by our ancestors just because they did not know better than us. I think if they could see us now they would be proud how far we have come all on our own. And if we were created by a god, maybe his intention was for us to make it on our own and he's proud of us, while leaving us alone.

I am sorry if I come off like I am right about everything, I am certainly not. I don't usually engage in religious discussions on the internet because I tend to find it impersonal. But I used to venture from time to time into this thread to see what the talk was. I saw that it was being dominated by one Muslim tuner and him being ridiculed by a-religious tuners and no one was make an apologetic for the true God of the Bible.

While you may encourage me to live my life I surely will. But my life would be very selfish if I don't tell people about the grace I received. I am just one beggar, tell others where to get food.

That message is simply is God is good, we are not. We lie and lust and we think murders and rapists are the bad ones, but in Jesus' sermon on the mount he says, if we hate our brother, we are murders, if we lust, we are adulterers. So God being just, will punish sinners, in hell.
But God being rich in mercy, sent His Son to suffer in the place of those who would believe in Him. So that if one repents and believes in Christ, God will transform their live and give them new everlasting life.
This is where you went wrong.
All others will face God judgement, by themselves. You can reject what I say or even PM me for more info, but now having read what I said, God holds you even more accountable now.

People believe what they want to believe, even ignoring the plain evidence...

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

People believe what they want to believe, even ignoring the plain evidence...

I fully agree

[AdamB]

I know for me I choose the one with the more corroborated truth claims, consistency and set the precedent 600 years before.

you have got to be kidding!

If that's your criteria, as Duane implied, then why are you not following Hinduism?

If it's truth and consistency youre interested in, then follow the Quran.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ Over the years I've read the english version of all three books: The Holy Bible (KJV), The Noble Qur'an and The Bhagavad Gita. I hope to read the Torah in english soon.

I am sure only reading is not studying but I wanted to give all a fair reading.

So you studied the Qur'an in as much detail as you have studied the Bible, impressive!
Tell me, which Surah did you enjoy the most? Have you read any Hadith?

and why are you so preoccupied with what you think are my preconceived notions? Forget about why I am asking the question and just answer it! You should be confident of your answer, not so?

The Noble Quran english translation by Khan and Hilalee is the best to use, it includes a little tafsir (explanation of the meaning) with authentic references from hadith as well.

Everything is downloadable / accessible from the internet (shaykh google).

Khan and Hilali, yes that's what I read. The tafsir was helpful since all the "verily", "doeth" and "thou" was hard to read anyway.

LOL @ shaykh Google

[AdamB]

just to expand on this point regarding angels:
The Bible tells us angels have free will and can commit sin and be cast out by God.
The Qur'an on the other hand tells us that, unlike man, angels do not have free will and can only carry out Allah's commands.

How can we know which is true?

Which concept makes more sense? Remember it has to be processed by the human intellect.

BTW, the man eh say as yet what sins the angels committed.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ sense? Logic would have me questioning the need for Angels in the first place. God shouldn't need help around the house or go-for's. Make an entire race just so one or two can carry God's message? Why not use a burning bush every time?

The Qur'an says Angels don't have free will but Jinn and Man have free will.
Muslims believe that Shaitan (Satan) is a Jinn and demons are not fallen Angels but they are in fact Jinn too.

The Bible says Angels DO have free will and some chose to disobey God, chief of which is Lucifer (Satan) and the fallen angels who followed him to hell.

Things making sense seem to have no bearing in all of that!

[AdamB]

^ sense? Logic would have me questioning the need for Angels in the first place. God shouldn't need help around the house or go-for's. Make an entire race just so one or two can carry God's message? Why not use a burning bush every time?

The Qur'an says Angels don't have free will but Jinn and Man have free will.
Muslims believe that Shaitan (Satan) is a Jinn and demons are not fallen Angels but they are in fact Jinn too.

The Bible says Angels DO have free will and some chose to disobey God, chief of which is Lucifer (Satan) and the fallen angels who followed him to hell.

Things making sense seem to have no bearing in all of that!

Then look for the wisdom in using angels as messengers, etc.

If everyone saw GOD and definite proof, then belief would not require faith.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ dude, if you or I saw an angel we'd need little faith thereafter anyway!

[achillies]

^ Over the years I've read the english version of all three books: The Holy Bible (KJV), The Noble Qur'an and The Bhagavad Gita. I hope to read the Torah in english soon.

I am sure only reading is not studying but I wanted to give all a fair reading.

So you studied the Qur'an in as much detail as you have studied the Bible, impressive!
Tell me, which Surah did you enjoy the most? Have you read any Hadith?

and why are you so preoccupied with what you think are my preconceived notions? Forget about why I am asking the question and just answer it! You should be confident of your answer, not so?

I have not studied the Qur'an anywhere close to the way I have studied the bible, and I consider myself to have a very long way to go with regards to having a comfortable understanding of the bible, what I do have is a proper foundation understanding.

Your preconceived notions are important, it causes you put aside and bypass relevant information that doesn't suit your outcome