The Religion Discussion

[nareshseep]

What religion does GOD follow?

This is pure ignorance

It is ignorance if you cannot provide an answer. If I say there is no GOD and you say there is a GOD , then the burden of proof lies with you. So please explain what religion GOD follows... the ball is in your court.

The burden of proof is on me, the ball is in my court, lol, I guess that all of you guys get your arguments from the same manual.

My advice to you, put down that manual, and pick up a few history books.

And still you have not answered my question and you cannot answer my question. My advice to you is get to know your GOD.

[maj. tom]

Do you believe in aliens and do you think they are more, less of equal intelligence?

Achillies, what is your opinion on this?

I don't know, I haven't seen any aliens in my lifetime thus far, so does that give me the right to make a universal claim that there is no such thing as extraterrestrial life, as humans with relatively little knowledge of the universe, how can any one man or group of men make a universal claim that this universe has no God, isn't that a God like claim in itself? Isn't that presumptuous?

No one claimed that the universe had no God. Maybe it's a god quite unlike how man has a concept of god. The Universe is a large place and animals we have been observing it since before this current species. Astronomy is the oldest science.

And what we have observed from the beginning of the 20th century has created the foundation of modern Astronomy as we know it today. And it has been no different than any other science, we apply the same Scientific Method largely to observations we make with various equipment and tools and do experiments on Earth and in Microgravity and we are coming along quite successfully. Sending robotic probes to Mars's surface and orbital probes to every planet in our solar system out of just 50 years of space exploration is a huge accomplishment.

There is a branch of Astronomy called Astrobiology/Exobiology. It concerns the origins of live on Earth and then applying those working theories to things we observe out there in the Universe. It has only been quite recent that we have been able to detect planetary systems around stars as out telescopes and detection methods improve. And these things are quite exciting to astrobiologists because for the first time we have the chance to observe what we have seen on our own planet in terms of the origin of life, to see if it can exist elsewhere.

Now the aliens that everyone has in their mind are actually a concept probably invented by our ancient ancestors as they looked up in awe at the night skies, very unlike how we do today in such light polluted populated areas. The light from Venus as the morning star is bright enough to read by and in completely dark areas you can see the Milky Way like this http://i.imgur.com/MThc28P.jpg but not with quite so much exposure. Mankind has observed awesome phenomena such as supernova in the sky which was reportedly as bright enough to see during the daytime, and lasted weeks. We have seen ancient comets split apart by Earth's and Jupiter's gravities, meteor showers like the Leonids, seen micro-asteroids of iron and stone hit the earth and leave craters and even used material from space to create tools. Such events without the current, recent scientific knowledge would create quite a lot of myths and legends.

This inspired some awesome beliefs and legends about visitors from other worlds coming here, or maybe it has happened with no evidence left. It's quite a debate if Aliens did visit our planet before. This has such a large impact on mankind notion of the night skies that aliens are synonymous with anything space related. Especially cinema.

But the aliens that astronomers and astrobiologists consider today are not what you have seen in the movies ok? Aliens as sound scientists envision are more like this: http://www.1channel.ch/watch-4544-Alien-Planet

Yes there may be aliens that can travel interstellar space with technology far beyond our imagination, but there has been no scientific evidence of them here on earth. Yes, in a galaxy, a universe so large to our observations, alien life probably does exist given the factors of life to exist and become intelligent do occur. These factors combining to yield what we have here on earth are incredibly small but the galaxy has a massively large number of stars and hence planetary systems, and we all expect in the future that probes will detect such planets out there that meet all the factors of life.

So that's very promising, and the sheer number of galaxies and stars and planets out there means that eventually that probability, that Math will work out, just as they are maybe looking for our rare, perfect, delicately balanced planet for signs of intelligent life. Space will always be the final frontier for man and whatever other number of species that come after us.

But to make claims like there are aliens out there but we've never seen them, thus they can be likened to observing god is completely ... well it doesn't make sense. We are making a scientific hypothesis that alien life does exist out there when we see all these factors playing in, and we're almost sure of it because of the size of our galaxy alone. We have not observed them probably because maybe interstellar travel as science fiction portrays it just isn't possible in physics. Or probably they're just so very far away that if they have sent a message like we have sent, it just has not arrived yet. Or maybe, like earth, intelligent life has existed and just dead-ended due to cataclysmic natural disasters. Or maybe the climate of such planet is unchanging and has not pushed evolution over the last 500 million years and they're stuck as primordial beings. Or maybe they're so intelligent and will just leave us alone until we're ready to make contact. or maybe they are coming in huge space craft to dominate and conquer our world for resources after they have moved on from the last, through vast interstellar distances over a million years.

Strictly, and being rigidly and scientifically terrestrial, aliens do not exist. But we are out there now and we have Astrobiology. And hence they can exist to a very high margin of accuracy or error. And that is the basis of our scientific belief of aliens. Now take all of that and compare it with the god you all supposedly worship and love. He's supposed to exist here on earth. Any observations?
He's supposed to exist out there is the vast nowheres of space. Any observations? He is supposed to be of qualities that humans can describe and relate to, but yet we see this violated every single day, in child abuse/rape/starvation.... natural disasters, consequences of war, so much suffering and hate by said people of religion and contradictory logic that religion wants to put forward as a saviour and purpose to our meagre existence. We have actually been doing fine since forever without god's help and suddenly within the last 6000 years we have used this god figure for our political motives. Remember, you were actually born an atheist.



By the way, roses are red and violets are f*cking VIOLET!! not blue!

[marlener]

Ok the atheists say there is no God,prove it.The ball is in your court.This should be interesting.I have never seen an atheist Prove there is no God.
Duane do YOU believe the easter bunny and santa claus or the tooth fairy exist or would it be presumptious to say no?

[nareshseep]

Ok the atheists say there is no God,prove it.The ball is in your court.This should be interesting.I have never seen an atheist Prove there is no God.
Duane do YOU believe the easter bunny and santa claus or the tooth fairy exist or would it be presumptious to say no?

GOD has never been seen and so to has Big foot... therefore Big foot = GOD

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

even in a court of law, lack of evidence is not evidence for the other side.
If you say unicorns exists then the burden of proof is on YOU, not on the people you are trying to convince. You cannot claim "well you can't prove they don't exist, therefore they must!".

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Duane do YOU believe the easter bunny and santa claus or the tooth fairy exist or would it be presumptious to say no?

the easter bunny and santa claus or the tooth fairy DO exist... in fairy tales, children stories and in the hearts and minds of those who want to believe or who have faith. There is clear evidence of that!

however believing in something does not make it true.

[marlener]

would that apply like vice versa Duane?

[maj. tom]

"the atheists say there is no God,prove it. I have never seen an atheist Prove there is no God."

prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist. Prove that santa and the easter bunny doesn't exist. Prove the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist. Prove that dragons don't exist.

and then he says: "Duane do YOU believe the easter bunny and santa claus or the tooth fairy exist or would it be presumptious to say no?"


marlener, u had the answer before you asked. Think deeper and add things up and interconnect your thoughts and let them flow in your head. Let everything sequitur the next via pure logic and an honest quest for common sense and fact (not truth) and what you yourself have observed about the world from your own reality. don't let the bias of what people have been telling you all your life poison that logic train.

Ask yourself questions that you already know the answer to, but let the most logical answer trump the mind conditioning that you know will overtake you because you cannot think anything else. Suddenly a lot of things become clearer, but yet very insecure?

[marlener]

Maybe so but do YOU believe they exist,I was asking what peole and children believe I already know that was asking what I don`t know,which is if YOU believe they exist,

[DFC]

Ok the atheists say there is no God,prove it.The ball is in your court.This should be interesting.I have never seen an atheist Prove there is no God.
Duane do YOU believe the easter bunny and santa claus or the tooth fairy exist or would it be presumptious to say no?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

would that apply like vice versa Duane?

would what apply vice versa? I made two posts, I'm not sure which one you are referring to.

[DFC]

[marlener]

Maj Tom what I know the answer to wasn`t the question,sometimes people just need to say eith yea or nay,sometime I ask a particular question to get THAT particular persons opinion.not because I don`t know for myself.
Personally people quoting othesr as support for their position is one thing but just sometime it is interesting to hear their original thought. What they think and believe, not what Darwin or Hawking believe. They have clearly stated their position.A few pages ago we had a discuss on the copy and paste trend taking place on this very post.
Duane was referring to the first post of evidence in court.
Why is it that people who believe in science and not God try to use disasters as proof that there is no God. If God does not exist as they claim then blame science and those who practise it for the disasters and not preventing it. Not the entity that you claim don`t exist.

[Habit7]

^^^funny the last pic shows part of Haeckel Diagram, while uses hand drawn embryos to show similarity over species, and for years has been used to bolster the theory of evolution. It was even in my palaeontology text book at university...








...the only problem is that it is FAKE.

You trust your text books, I'll trust my Bible which has even stood the scrutiny of time, and in the end we will all find out...

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Why is it that people who believe in science and not God try to use disasters as proof that there is no God. If God does not exist as they claim then blame science and those who practise it for the disasters and not preventing it. Not the entity that you claim don`t exist.

what?

So you want to blame a geologist when there is an earthquake?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^^^funny the last pic shows part of Haeckel Diagram, while uses hand drawn embryos to show similarity over species, and for years has been used to bolster the theory of evolution. It was even in my palaeontology text book at university...

...the only problem is that it is FAKE.

You trust your text books, I'll trust my Bible which has even stood the scrutiny of time, and in the end we will all find out...

yup it's fake and science has accepted that it is fake.

what about talking snakes?

BTW the graphic talks about "what you dreamt up after being drunk all night". I don't think the graphic is meant to be a science paper.

[marlener]

No I am saying that science and faith in it is not sound.my faith in God is.Others will have to state CLEARLY where theirs` lien or that should be lye.Oh wait science does not require faith,my apologies.But we all know that that to depend on man is.......... Heck Duane could shut down this thread or the whole of trinituner if he felt too lol.With no explaination to the member who piggy back for free if he wish.
No science there.Unless someone sent him a post that bypassed the servers built in firewalls and infected the system then infected the system of all who opened any post that he posted.Duane that was just of emphasis eh.lol.No ill intend.Me love me tuner more than facebook.

[maj. tom]

^ what you does really be trying to say? (lol so gramatically wrong)

[Habit7]

^^^funny the last pic shows part of Haeckel Diagram, while uses hand drawn embryos to show similarity over species, and for years has been used to bolster the theory of evolution. It was even in my palaeontology text book at university...

...the only problem is that it is FAKE.

You trust your text books, I'll trust my Bible which has even stood the scrutiny of time, and in the end we will all find out...

yup it's fake and science has accepted that it is fake.

what about talking snakes?

BTW the graphic talks about "what you dreamt up after being drunk all night". I don't think the graphic is meant to be a science paper.

Well science is still having a problem accepting it if it is still showing up in my Mcgraw-Hill text book and internet memes to attack creationism.

Talking snakes (and if you read later on a talking donkey) I must admit does require some amount of faith...

...but so does Panspermia and aliens yet just like in your favourite movie Contact we are spending hundreds of millions looking for them.

[achillies]

Do you believe in aliens and do you think they are more, less of equal intelligence?

Achillies, what is your opinion on this?

I don't know, I haven't seen any aliens in my lifetime thus far, so does that give me the right to make a universal claim that there is no such thing as extraterrestrial life, as humans with relatively little knowledge of the universe, how can any one man or group of men make a universal claim that this universe has no God, isn't that a God like claim in itself? Isn't that presumptuous?

No one claimed that the universe had no God. Maybe it's a god quite unlike how man has a concept of god. The Universe is a large place and animals we have been observing it since before this current species. Astronomy is the oldest science.

And what we have observed from the beginning of the 20th century has created the foundation of modern Astronomy as we know it today. And it has been no different than any other science, we apply the same Scientific Method largely to observations we make with various equipment and tools and do experiments on Earth and in Microgravity and we are coming along quite successfully. Sending robotic probes to Mars's surface and orbital probes to every planet in our solar system out of just 50 years of space exploration is a huge accomplishment.

There is a branch of Astronomy called Astrobiology/Exobiology. It concerns the origins of live on Earth and then applying those working theories to things we observe out there in the Universe. It has only been quite recent that we have been able to detect planetary systems around stars as out telescopes and detection methods improve. And these things are quite exciting to astrobiologists because for the first time we have the chance to observe what we have seen on our own planet in terms of the origin of life, to see if it can exist elsewhere.

Now the aliens that everyone has in their mind are actually a concept probably invented by our ancient ancestors as they looked up in awe at the night skies, very unlike how we do today in such light polluted populated areas. The light from Venus as the morning star is bright enough to read by and in completely dark areas you can see the Milky Way like this http://i.imgur.com/MThc28P.jpg but not with quite so much exposure. Mankind has observed awesome phenomena such as supernova in the sky which was reportedly as bright enough to see during the daytime, and lasted weeks. We have seen ancient comets split apart by Earth's and Jupiter's gravities, meteor showers like the Leonids, seen micro-asteroids of iron and stone hit the earth and leave craters and even used material from space to create tools. Such events without the current, recent scientific knowledge would create quite a lot of myths and legends.

This inspired some awesome beliefs and legends about visitors from other worlds coming here, or maybe it has happened with no evidence left. It's quite a debate if Aliens did visit our planet before. This has such a large impact on mankind notion of the night skies that aliens are synonymous with anything space related. Especially cinema.

But the aliens that astronomers and astrobiologists consider today are not what you have seen in the movies ok? Aliens as sound scientists envision are more like this: http://www.1channel.ch/watch-4544-Alien-Planet

Yes there may be aliens that can travel interstellar space with technology far beyond our imagination, but there has been no scientific evidence of them here on earth. Yes, in a galaxy, a universe so large to our observations, alien life probably does exist given the factors of life to exist and become intelligent do occur. These factors combining to yield what we have here on earth are incredibly small but the galaxy has a massively large number of stars and hence planetary systems, and we all expect in the future that probes will detect such planets out there that meet all the factors of life.

So that's very promising, and the sheer number of galaxies and stars and planets out there means that eventually that probability, that Math will work out, just as they are maybe looking for our rare, perfect, delicately balanced planet for signs of intelligent life. Space will always be the final frontier for man and whatever other number of species that come after us.

But to make claims like there are aliens out there but we've never seen them, thus they can be likened to observing god is completely ... well it doesn't make sense. We are making a scientific hypothesis that alien life does exist out there when we see all these factors playing in, and we're almost sure of it because of the size of our galaxy alone. We have not observed them probably because maybe interstellar travel as science fiction portrays it just isn't possible in physics. Or probably they're just so very far away that if they have sent a message like we have sent, it just has not arrived yet. Or maybe, like earth, intelligent life has existed and just dead-ended due to cataclysmic natural disasters. Or maybe the climate of such planet is unchanging and has not pushed evolution over the last 500 million years and they're stuck as primordial beings. Or maybe they're so intelligent and will just leave us alone until we're ready to make contact. or maybe they are coming in huge space craft to dominate and conquer our world for resources after they have moved on from the last, through vast interstellar distances over a million years.

Strictly, and being rigidly and scientifically terrestrial, aliens do not exist. But we are out there now and we have Astrobiology. And hence they can exist to a very high margin of accuracy or error. And that is the basis of our scientific belief of aliens. Now take all of that and compare it with the god you all supposedly worship and love. He's supposed to exist here on earth. Any observations?
He's supposed to exist out there is the vast nowheres of space. Any observations? He is supposed to be of qualities that humans can describe and relate to, but yet we see this violated every single day, in child abuse/rape/starvation.... natural disasters, consequences of war, so much suffering and hate by said people of religion and contradictory logic that religion wants to put forward as a saviour and purpose to our meagre existence. We have actually been doing fine since forever without god's help and suddenly within the last 6000 years we have used this god figure for our political motives. Remember, you were actually born an atheist.



By the way, roses are red and violets are f*cking VIOLET!! not blue!

sorry to have to quote this post, but the parts that I have in bold and underlined are where YOU are wrong, and it is you make the same mistake that all arguments against "religion" make

1. God and religion are two completely different things

2. You use religious dogma and fallacies and religious belief to argue a case against God

3. You and many others automatically associate God with supernatural behavior/powers e.g talking snake, burning bush, this accounts for what percentage of one "holy book" very narrow minded that none of you can account for the remaining words in said books

Lean back for a second or two, you talked about many sciences in your post, now let this soak in:

What if God is a scientist?

Now you let the repercussions of the above statement permeate through

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Talking snakes (and if you read later on a talking donkey) I must admit does require some amount of faith...

...but so does Panspermia and aliens yet just like in your favourite movie Contact we are spending hundreds of millions looking for them.

they spent billions looking for the Higgs Boson and found it.
They spent billions on the space program, put men on the moon, even looking for life.

scientists have hope in finding answers, but it is not a prerequisite.
The difference is that scientists will give up that hope when their tests yield negative results.

[maj. tom]

lolwut? then he's very, very, very cruel, very egoist, self centred and is not really an ethical scientist if we are the experiments that he is conducting. Yeah you let that sink in if you can manage to understand the implications of it.

[AdamB]

If we go back (hypothetically) millions or gazillions of years ago before the existence of complex life forms, "scientists" would say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for what exists today, MAN with his superior intelligence, etc to form from such primitive existing life forms.

But if it was possible for man to have "evolved", then why is it not also possible for a superior being aka GOD to have formed or to exist because it would seem that since the impossible became possible then ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

THE EXISTENCE OF GOD IS POSSIBLE!!

[maj. tom]

^
but what... I really fed of saying so too you know!
well not all that, just the last line.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

1. God and religion are two completely different things

do you really think so?

can you have one without the other?

[achillies]

1. God and religion are two completely different things

do you really think so?

can you have one without the other?

I know so

Yes

Hint: not all religions worship God

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

1. God and religion are two completely different things

do you really think so?

can you have one without the other?

I know so

Yes

Hint: not all religions worship God

examples?

[achillies]

1. God and religion are two completely different things

do you really think so?

can you have one without the other?

I know so

Yes

Hint: not all religions worship God

examples?

Lol, not going there right now, but many popular religions today worship other 'things' other than God, many worship the religion itself (unknowingly). And throughout human history you would find examples of religions that worshiped, the sun, the moon, animals, some of these which predate present popular religions.

so yes, God and religion are 2 totally different things and one can exist without the other

You don't believe there is a God, religion exists!

Religion exists, is there a God?

[Habit7]

Talking snakes (and if you read later on a talking donkey) I must admit does require some amount of faith...

...but so does Panspermia and aliens yet just like in your favourite movie Contact we are spending hundreds of millions looking for them.

they spent billions looking for the Higgs Boson and found it.
They spent billions on the space program, put men on the moon, even looking for life.

scientists have hope in finding answers, but it is not a prerequisite.
The difference is that scientists will give up that hope when their tests yield negative results.

But there was evidence for Higgs Boson, and there was (looks into the sky) and still is evidence for the moon. But there is no evidence for life outside of Earth, but that would lead us back to your "no faith in science" argument that I defeat a couple pages ago.

In fact astronomer Guillermo Gonzalez has done a massive work to prove to the contrary that life exists outside of Earth due to the highly specific conditions present, and not just the "look! it has water" theory.

[Rooki3]

1. God and religion are two completely different things

do you really think so?

can you have one without the other?

I know so

Yes

Hint: not all religions worship God

examples?

Lol, not going there right now, but many popular religions today worship other 'things' other than God, many worship the religion itself (unknowingly). And throughout human history you would find examples of religions that worshiped, the sun, the moon, animals, some of these which predate present popular religions.

so yes, God and religion are 2 totally different things and one can exist without the other

You don't believe there is a God, religion exists!

Religion exists, is there a God?

"god" is jus a title

there are many gods

so if someone worships the sun, that there is their god